quote:

---

...he saves a dog, well he must hate cats...

---

quote:

---

Lebron's stats are impressive enough that they don't need your embellishing.

---

I'm so glad you caught that because 2.5 apg is a massive embellishment on my part...classic, you're really reaching now if that's all you got to comment on.

quote:

---

I don't think it's reaching to expect a player to get back on D instead of staying on the other end and complaining about a call. You give the Spurs a 5 on 4 opportunity and they will usually capitalize on it.

Not taking anything away from Lebron. He got a triple double and beasted in the 4th quarter, but I would say the same thing about any player not getting back on D.

Like you said though, a concept not recognized by many on TexAgs is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion

---

I agree to some extent, but when you hapr on 1-3 instances, rather than the entire body of work, which they won, it looks like sour grapes on your part...it looks like you're saying "well, he has a triple double, and they won an elimination game, but he didn't get back on defense 2, or maybe 3 times"...just my .02.

quote:

---

quote: He was a 6'9 Point Guard that had a ridiculous handle, could make any shot, and was a physical force.

I think you just described LeBron. At this point, I think you guys are literally trolling.

---

Lebron isn't anything close to the distributor that Magic was. He also isn't anything close to the competitor that he was. Magic led Michigan State to the NCAA Title and beat Larry Bird and then went to the NBA before he even got to the NBA. Then as a ROOKIE he led the Lakers to the Title and came in to play all 5 positions in the deciding Game 6 when Kareem went down. He put up 42/15/7/3 and is the only rookie to ever be Finals MVP. Then over the next 12 years won 4 more titles and only failed to reach the Finals 3 times in his career picking up 3 MVP's along the way.

Sorry but Lebron will never be that good unless he rips off another 5 titles or so. This also comes from someone that never rooted for Magic as a Spurs fan who loved Larry Bird. Jordan is the only one that can say they were better than Magic with credibility. Had Magic not been HIV positive there is no telling how many more awards he would have piled up, he was barely 32 when he retired (though he had a couple of short comebacks where he still performed at an elite level).

Except I'm a Rockets fan and a fan of LeBron. No sour grapes here. I respect the Spurs, and I am okay with their fans calling out LeBron for not getting back on defense. It's to their advantage anyway.

Magic was awesome but the talent around him was so much better than the talent Lebron has had. In fact Magic was not the leading scorer on his own team most years.

To add to the above point, even Magic will admit that he was not elite and quite a bit overweight when he came back for his single comeback.

quote:

---

Magic was awesome but the talent around him was so much better than the talent Lebron has had. In fact Magic was not the leading scorer on his own team most years.

---

Magic also averaged 10.5 assists per game for 9 straight seasons. Not a lot of guys that are getting 13 assists a year are the top scorer on their team.

The league had 22 teams in Magic's rookie season. There are 30 teams now. Every team had more great players.

On the 87 Lakers - which some say is the greatest team ever, Magic led the league with 12.2 assists per game and led the Lakers with 23.9 points per game (10th in the league.) Pretty incredible. Accounting for 48.3 PPG.

Magic played PG and he was a ridiculous passer that did have talent around him. The fact he didn't lead the Lakers in scoring every year doesn't mean much, he made everyone around him much better and was a triple double machine. Magic had 138 Triple Doubles in 13 (really 12) years, Lebron has 30 in 10 years.

If Magic wasn't a guy that could score I would say that had a point but he could. As I said the guy went off for 42 as a Rookie in the NBA Finals deciding game. He could fill it up all night long, he just cared about winning over individual stats. He was also 10X the competitor and winner that Lebron is, dude was just a pure winner no matter how much the landscape changed around him.

Crunching the stats for both players I now see why they are often compared. Overall it looks like Magic was the better distributor while Lebron is the better scorer. Aside from that their stats are similar.

Here are their playoff numbers:

LBJ - 28.0 PPG/6.7 APG/8.6 TRB/.472 FG%
Mag - 19.5 PPG/12.3 APG/7.7 TRB/.506 FG%

During Magic's comeback (which was only a couple dozen games) he was still putting up triple doubles. He just wasn't "elite" by his own standard. There isn't much doubt that had he not retired with his HIV diagnosis he would have played at an All Star/All NBA level for several more years. His last season he was 3 rebounds away from AVERAGING a triple double for the year.

He ended up losing to Jordan in his first year of the Bulls run in the Finals in spite of him playing very well. It would have been interesting had the Lakers been able to keep him and maybe add a piece or two around Magic to see if he could have changed Jordan's legacy.

quote:

---

Guy *****es more than any other superstar I've ever seen. What a whiny *****. He's suppose to be the best player in the world yet any time he misses cause he got touched he's crying.

---

This is the thing that annoys me most about him. He obviously is the best player in the league but these type of antics/players just really annoy me - especially when it affects his team by not getting back for defense.

I honestly don't think he thinks he has ever fouled anyone or just missed a shot in his entire life. I remembered thinking this when the Mavs played them in the Finals so I was specifically watching for that last night to see if I was being fair or was just mis-remembering because of the "Mav's glasses" I had on back then. He did not disappoint last night by *****ing virtually every time something positive didn't happen for him.

quote:

---

This is the thing that annoys me most about him. He obviously is the best player in the league but these type of antics/players just really annoy me - especially when it affects his team by not getting back for defense.

I honestly don't think he thinks he has ever fouled anyone or just missed a shot in his entire life. I remembered thinking this when the Mavs played them in the Finals so I was specifically watching for that last night to see if I was being fair or was just mis-remembering because of the "Mav's glasses" I had on back then. He did not disappoint last night by *****ing virtually every time something positive didn't happen for him.

---

And to think if he still had a triple double and kept his team alive for back to back championships...just think what he could be if he didn't whine every time he touched the ball...he could be almost better than Dirk...

The whining to the refs honestly doesn't bother me. Same thing with the showboating. What bothers me is he does it during games and it negatively impacts his team. It has happened over and over in this series. Wade does it, too.

Kobe, Duncan, Dirk and every other star whines about calls and it often gets them nice make up calls. But I haven't ever seen Kobe sit on his ass yelling about a call while another team runs a fast break on the Lakers.

quote:

---

And to think if he still had a triple double and kept his team alive for back to back championships...just think what he could be if he didn't whine every time he touched the ball...he could be almost better than Dirk...

---

Oh yea, I must have forgotten the rule that you can't have a opinion...

Seriously though, get over yourself, I said he was the best player in the league and I said that his *****ing annoys me. It doesn't annoy you. Congrats, dude. That doesn't negate the fact that the guy b****es more than anyone else in the NBA.

quote:

---

The whining to the refs honestly doesn't bother me. Same thing with the showboating. What bothers me is he does it during games and it negatively impacts his team. It has happened over and over in this series. Wade does it, too.

Kobe, Duncan, Dirk and every other star whines about calls and it often gets them nice make up calls. But I haven't ever seen Kobe sit on his ass yelling about a call while another team runs a fast break on the Lakers.

---

I agree that negative plays for your team is a bit ridiculous, but you're making it sounds like that the 2 times a game he does that (and I'm just using last night as my point of reference) is the entire game...what most people don't recognize, either by refusing to or otherwise, is that Lebron gets hacked almost everytime down the floor; he was manhandled by the Pacer bigs, and while he's 6'9 245 or whatever, all that punishment takes it's toll, but physically and mentally...thus him lashing out...he doesn't do it everytime down the floor at all...he doesn't even do it everytime he gets hit on his way to the rim either, and any claim to the contrary is just false...

quote:

---

Oh yea, I must have forgotten the rule that you can't have a opinion...

Seriously though, get over yourself, I said he was the best player in the league and I said that his *****ing annoys me. It doesn't annoy you. Congrats, dude. That doesn't negate the fact that the guy b****es more than anyone else in the NBA

---

You can have an opinion, but when your opinion ignores all the positive he is/does to focus on 2-3 possessions of a four quarter NBA game, it seems your opinion is a bit flawed...

So you've watched the entire NBA season and charted all the b****ing and determined he does it more than anyone? Because Kobe complains, Duncan crys like a baby, so does Carmello, Durant, etc...I just want to make sure your claim of "fact" that he whines more than anyone in the entire NBA is based on fact and not your blind hatred of the man...

quote:

---

You can have an opinion, but when your opinion ignores all the positive he is/does to focus on 2-3 possessions of a four quarter NBA game, it seems your opinion is a bit flawed...

---

Right, I guess you missed the part about me saying he is obviously the best player in the NBA, but go right ahead and continue talking about how I am saying he sucks bc he whines too much instead of actually talking about something I DID say. I would make a very strong argument that saying someone is the best player in the league isn't exactly ignoring the "positives" he does.

*** Warning - Opinion to follow****

I personally don't enjoy watching these guys act like little cry babies every single time something goes wrong. If it is only 3-4 times a game, I can ignore it. When it is almost every time something negative happens (like it does with LeBron), it annoys me. THAT is my OPINION and I'm not really sure how having an opinion that I don't want to see someone cry all game could be flawed.

That being said, I apologize profusely that my opinion is flawed since you don't share that opinion with me. Once again, I guess I got caught up in the thought that someone could have a different opinion and it not be flawed.

quote:

---

I personally don't enjoy watching these guys act like little cry babies every single time something goes wrong.

---

When you preface your opinions with absolutes such as this, it discredits anything that follows...I'd be willing to bet you a healthy sum of money that they, Lebron included, don't cry like babies EVERY SINGLE TIME SOMETHING GOES WRONG. Far from it...and the fact that you can honestly say that everytime something goes wrong Lebron whines likes a baby displays your bias...

quote:

---

That being said, I apologize profusely that my opinion is flawed since you don't share that opinion with me

---

What you should apologize for is letting your personal bias of Lebron flaw your opinion...not that your opinion differs from mine.

All NBA players talk to the refs, some more aggressive than others...that's part of the game...Magic did it, so did MJ, Malone, Bird, and Wilt...but for some odd reason everyone bags on Lebron, Wade, etc for it making them the "pioneers" of complaining in the League to refs...just like flopping...you'd think the Heat invented flopping, complaining to the refs, gathering multiple superstars on one team, etc...

quote:

---

All NBA players talk to the refs, some more aggressive than others...that's part of the game...Magic did it, so did MJ, Malone, Bird, and Wilt...but for some odd reason everyone bags on Lebron, Wade, etc for it making them the "pioneers" of complaining in the League to refs...just like flopping...you'd think the Heat invented flopping, complaining to the refs, gathering multiple superstars on one team, etc...

---

Can you show me an instance where another superstar took off several plays to complain to the refs in an elimination game in the Finals?

Did someone just say Lebron isn't in the same breath as Tony Parker?

Holy ****.

Lebron is better than Tony Parker. That's undeniable.

I'm a Spurs fan and like LeBron. I have nothing but good things to say about him

LeBron >> Parker

quote:

---

When you preface your opinions with absolutes such as this, it discredits anything that follows...I'd be willing to bet you a healthy sum of money that they, Lebron included, don't cry like babies EVERY SINGLE TIME SOMETHING GOES WRONG. Far from it...and the fact that you can honestly say that everytime something goes wrong Lebron whines likes a baby displays your bias...

---

Obviously I was speaking in hyperbole. If you honestly did not recognize that, I would recommend practicing your critical thinking skills a little before continuing in a debate.

While your working on studying up on critical thinking skills, make sure to touch up on irony too. That's because it is actually YOUR bias that is preventing YOU from seeing LeBron as anything less than 100% perfect including seeing his behavior on the court as more than just "normal talking to the refs like everyone else" and it is your bias that is causing you to attack me because I dared say something negative about the almighty King James. I have acknowledged from the get go that he is the most talented player in the NBA but that there is a personality trait that personally annoys me and prevents me from fully enjoying him as an entertainer. That is not bias. That is a fair assessment of his talents and my opinion of him based on what I observe. I also acknowledged from the get go that I might have been biased in 2011 and was watching specifically this series (while completely emotionally detached from the series to ensure there was NO bias)to see if it WAS my bias that was causing me to mis-remember how he actually was acting. I can assure you, it was not my bias causing me to mis-remember and it was not my bias that was causing my brain to make up a steady stream of whining from LeBron that I watched virtually the entire game.

The bottom line is, whether you want to admit it or not, LeBron complains WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than most others on the court. If you do not believe me, I'll just let the game tonight speak for itself since I have NO DOUBT that his whining is going to be in full force tonight. Just be sure to watch LeBron instead of the ball when the Spurs are transitioning or when there is a dead ball because the network is not going to spoon feed his antics to you, so you might just miss it again like you have apparently missed it in the past.

quote:

---

The bottom line is, whether you want to admit it or not, LeBron complains WAAAAAAAAAAAAY more than most others

---

Yeah, no bias at all there.

quote:

---

Yeah, no bias at all there.

---

Not if you watch him after the plays.

Seriously, I would challenge anyone on here to specifically watch him after every play tonight, and I mean really focus on him even when he is on the periphery of the picture, and tell me that I am not completely right about how often he puts his hands up, or how often he jogs down the court jawing at the refs the whole time, or how often he has a look of complete disbelief that he didn't get a call, etc, etc. (And that isn't even pointing out the 3-4 possessions he just completely took off on defense bc he was too busy whining.)

Lebron definitely complains to the officials like almost every other player in the NBA and there has been a few times that it has kept him from getting back on defense.

However, what you are asking people to do is channel in on one player the entire game and focus on how he engages with the officials. That is the problem. Lebron is much more polarizing than any other player on the floor so it is easier to scrutinize him and say he is the "worst in the league." It just isn't true.

I would venture to guess that if a reporter asked Lebron about the times he doesn't get back on defense when he is arguing about a call he would say it is a sh** move on his part.

Sounds to me like Lebron isn't getting the calls the best player in the league deserves

I should have read your comment more carefully. haha

[This message has been edited by Groosome (edited 6/20/2013 11:37a).]

He is unreal

Awesome!

That Lebron James, he just ain't clutch.

What else can you come up with?

Someone yelling off screen when Lebron is receiving the MVP, "That's a bad man!"

Amazing how much different the book on Lebron was just 2 years ago. He's a freak.

Top 10 player all-time as of today.

he's been top 10 even before this game

Spurs fan here. Lebrons a beast. Wish he would shut the hell up and just keep playing sometimes, but it's a sign of the times I think. Congrats to him