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I personally think the way Josh left the Rangers was. busch league, "we werent wooed enough" wtf, they bent over backwards for you.

I got tired of hearing about what an inspiration he was and how noble it was he was overcoming these hardships. .

HIS HARDSHIP WAS NOT DOING CRACK AMD HEROINE? Are you kidding me. A hardship is getting in a car wreck or cancer and making it back to the bigs, not being so f'n stupid as to do hardcore drugs.

That isnt necessarily on Josh, more the media. I hate how they idolize people who make stupid decisions and wreck their lives but get back right. How about we focus on folks that arent total morons to start with.

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I'm going to assume that you have never had issues with drug and/or alcohol addiction. And that's a good thing. I haven't either, but I have seen it firsthand in some of my friends. It absolutely is a hardship, and for anyone to think otherwise is incredibly naive and uninformed, not to mention incredibly insensitive. It's awesome that you've never had to battle those demons, but it doesn't make you any more cool for belittling those who have

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I did a poor job of conveying my thoughts. Yes, addiction is a hardship, I should have written it isn't a hardship that when overcome is worth celebrating. I get tired of the media celebrating people who create their own hardships through their own actions. No one held Josh down an poored cocaine down his nose. He didn't get blind sidede by a drunk driver, he didn't get cancer, he lose his whole family. His problems are his own creation, and were created by ignoring a basic tenent most every kid in the country is taught, DON'T DO DRUGS. As I tried to point out in my previous post, I am not a fan of Josh's because of the way he left an orginization that bent over backwards for him and made special concessions for years. I think it is great that he tells his story as a cautoinary tale but I hate that he was put on a pedestal by the media and we were told what a hero he was for "overcoming", though he clearly isn't one and never will should be.

Damnit Otto, you have Lupus.

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HIS HARDSHIP WAS NOT DOING CRACK AMD HEROINE? Are you kidding me. A hardship is getting in a car wreck or cancer and making it back to the bigs, not being so f'n stupid as to do hardcore drugs.

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AggieGunslinger

- Oh the IRONY.

You do realize, AFAIK, until 2001 he had never done anything. I don't recall, but believe he may not have even had alcohol. His parents went to all of his games. Then, the 3 of them were in an accident, and his back was badly hurt. His parents were hurt, as well, and while his parents went one way for his mother's treatment... Josh went another. It was during that time, that he started hanging out with people and started his path to destruction. At the age of 20.

It wasn't like he was a bored pothead in HS, who just found himself winning the Lotto.

One of the things I'm preparing my kids for, is life after Mom-N-Pops. It isn't his parent's fault he is where he is, but they could have helped with what appears to be Co-Dependence. As much as Hamilton has a substance abuse issue... he has Co-Dependency issues.

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I personally think the way Josh left the Rangers was. busch league, "we werent wooed enough" wtf, they bent over backwards for you.

I got tired of hearing about what an inspiration he was and how noble it was he was overcoming these hardships. .

HIS HARDSHIP WAS NOT DOING CRACK AMD HEROINE? Are you kidding me. A hardship is getting in a car wreck or cancer and making it back to the bigs, not being so f'n stupid as to do hardcore drugs.

That isnt necessarily on Josh, more the media. I hate how they idolize people who make stupid decisions and wreck their lives but get back right. How about we focus on folks that arent total morons to start with.

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I'm going to assume that you have never had issues with drug and/or alcohol addiction. And that's a good thing. I haven't either, but I have seen it firsthand in some of my friends. It absolutely is a hardship, and for anyone to think otherwise is incredibly naive and uninformed, not to mention incredibly insensitive. It's awesome that you've never had to battle those demons, but it doesn't make you any more cool for belittling those who have

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I did a poor job of conveying my thoughts. Yes, addiction is a hardship, I should have written it isn't a hardship that when overcome is worth celebrating. I get tired of the media celebrating people who create their own hardships through their own actions. No one held Josh down an poored cocaine down his nose. He didn't get blind sidede by a drunk driver, he didn't get cancer, he lose his whole family. His problems are his own creation, and were created by ignoring a basic tenent most every kid in the country is taught, DON'T DO DRUGS. As I tried to point out in my previous post, I am not a fan of Josh's because of the way he left an orginization that bent over backwards for him and made special concessions for years. I think it is great that he tells his story as a cautoinary tale but I hate that he was put on a pedestal by the media and we were told what a hero he was for "overcoming", though he clearly isn't one and never will should be.

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TL;DR...

...you're butthurt.

Arbitrator: MLB can't punish Josh Hamilton

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A four-person treatment board created by baseball's joint drug program, which includes one lawyer and one medical representative each appointed by management and the players' association, deadlocked 2-2 on whether Hamilton should be disciplined. That caused the need for an arbitrator to break the tie.
The arbitrator said only that Hamilton was not subject to discipline and did not give reasons for the decision, the person familiar with the case told The Associated Press.

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Angels looking horrible in all of this. Rosenthal wrote a column blasting them. Now this:

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BNightengale: Oh-oh. #Angels president John Carpino reporters:"It defies logic that Josh's reported behavior is not a violation of his current program."

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Angels looking horrible in all of this. Rosenthal wrote a column blasting them. Now this:

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BNightengale: Oh-oh. #Angels president John Carpino reporters:"It defies logic that Josh's reported behavior is not a violation of his current program."

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Meh. Nightengale, in his full article, give the comment some context and I don't know, I'm not too upset by the Angels reaction.

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"The Angels have serious concerns about Josh's conduct, health and behavior,'' Angels GM Jerry Dipoto said, "and we are disappointed that he has broken an important commitment which he made to himself, his family, his teammates and our fans. We are going to do everything possible to assure he receives proper help for himself and for the well-being of his family."

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MLB is pissed, and as was just documented again in that article, even some of Josh's closest personal supporters thinks the guy needs to take a break and get his affairs in order.

I've said in this thread that I respect Josh, but I also said I think he needs to get punished. This is a terrible decision by the arbitrator. Terrible.

Josh should never had appealed his punishment.

The Angels leaked this to begin with, a violation of the drug policy. They want Hamilton punished because they are on the hook for a horrible contract.

Angels getting slammed pretty hard from numerous writers on twitter.

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The Angels leaked this to begin with, a violation of the drug policy. They want Hamilton punished because they are on the hook for a horrible contract.

Angels getting slammed pretty hard from numerous writers on twitter.

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Were they slamming the Yankees when they wanted A-Rod to get punished?

I feel bad for Josh, too. I think he needs support and help- and the Angels wanting a chance to save money doesn't preclude them from helping Josh with what he needs help with.

I think he deserved to, needed to, and should have been punished. And I can't fault the Angels for, even publicly, scratching their heads as to this terrible decision by the arbitrator- who, by my understanding, didn't even release a reasoned opinion.

At least back when an arbitrator told MLB they couldn't punish Steve Howe for a seventh drug violation (maybe the worst decision by a baseball arbitrator), he at least told us why.

Can you cite the portions of CBA & drug policy that make this a "terrible" decision?

I haven't read into it but I assume since it was self reported they deemed he couldn't be punished?

no failed drug test = no suspension.

addicts can be cured. But for most of them, it's better to live like they can't be. IOW, an alcoholic could become a responsible social drinker...but why chance it? AA takes the safe approach.

JH shows us that we should always point people to JC. He's the only one who overcame everything. Never had a first sin, never had a relapse, but chose to enter this mess and die for it.

If you think that only flawless people should be allowed to speak on a topic, please don't have children. If you feel guilt about your past disqualifies you from speaking morality, just remember there's a code that didn't originate with your successes and failures.

wow, could the Angels look any worse? It's like when Arizona drafted the guy from A&M because he had an injury, and they knew they could get out of paying for their 1st round pick.

The Angels likely violated the drug policy by commenting on it.

If this were really about Josh, they'd say "we support him and will help him get treatment even if it means missing games"

But it's about regretting the money they psy him.

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Can you cite the portions of CBA & drug policy that make this a "terrible" decision?

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I digress a bit, and say until we know the details- if we ever do- I guess I shouldn't be too hard on the arbitrator, But here is the relevant language, based on what I believe Josh was on the hook for.

I'll start by saying...

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no failed drug test = no suspension.

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This is not true.

Anyways, the drug policy states "Players who fail to...comply with their initial Treatment Programs will be subject to immediate discipline..."

The drug policy leaves it up to a 4 member "Treatment Board" which "determine{s} whether a Player....has failed to comply with his Treatment Program." To make this decision, the policy lists out of criteria they are to apply when making that decision. To wit,

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C. Failure to Comply with a Treatment Program

{.....}

(c) {....} {A} Player will be presumed to have failed to comply with his Treatment Program if his assigned health care professional informs the Treatment Board in a status report that the Player is not cooperating with the requirements of his Treatment Program.

(d) If a Player tests positive for a Drug of Abuse after his.....written commitment to a Treatment Program.....the Player shall have the burden of convincing the Treatment Board.....the positive test result did not result from a lack of commitment by the Player to his Treatment Program. In determining whether the Player has met his burden, the Treatment Board shall consider, among other things: (a) the Player's history of positive test results; (b) the evaluation of the Player's treating professional; and (c) the Player's willingness to consider other treatment options such as in-patient therapy.

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So, what I would guess happened is there wasn't a positive test and they didn't hear from a health care professional. Or they did, either after the "self reporting" and the arbitrator granted Josh reprieve because of that, or the arbitrator thought the board didn't apply those considerations in part (d) properly.
So again, I shouldn't be too tough on the arbitrator, but let's just say I'm really curious as to what MLB or its Treatment Board failed to take care of over the past few months to prevent a suspension.

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The Angels likely violated the drug policy by commenting on it.

If this were really about Josh, they'd say "we support him and will help him get treatment even if it means missing games"

But it's about regretting the money they psy him.

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They've said the "we support him and will help him get treatment" part, several times. They've talked about trying to help his family if they want it.

When you sign a guy like Josh, you have to know you're taking a risk, but at the same time, when you give Josh the opportunity the Angels did, and Josh performs and acts like he has, of course the Angels are going to be frustrated and of course its not only about Josh. And i can't blame the Angels for that.

I respect Josh, and feel really bad for him, but I've always thought he was deserving and needed to spend some time away from the ballpark.

Even one of Josh's closest confidants and support guys has been clamoring for Josh to just retire because he doesn't think this is working for Josh.

Maybe the Angels shouldn't have said what they said, but a couple of lines at a press conference has to be the least of the worries right now.

I hope they follow up on their promise to help him and his family and I hope they give him a fair shot to earn playing time and all that jazz.

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Josh should never had appealed his punishment.

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He self reported and was not caught.

It is the difference of getting paid and not getting paid, no?

Yes, the Angels look horrible because they sound disappointed. Hamilton is hurt, and won't play until the ASB, IIRC. Being suspended would have saved Anaheim some $$$$.

Don't feel bad at all for him it's called Karma the rangers organization did everything possible to keep him on the straight and narrow, and what did Josh do he went and said **** that and chased the money so sorry he can kindly piss off

Didn't read thread, but just saw him this morning in my office building in Dallas. Lots of lawyers in my building...

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Didn't read thread, but just saw him this morning in my office building in Dallas. Lots of lawyers in my building...

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hope he gets kicked out of the league

You may be taking this a tad too personally.

So

IMO self-reporters should be suspended with pay. Warrant the honesty by letting them keep the paychecks, but I do think some time away from the game (unrelated to injury rehab) to focus on their recovery as well as see some repurcussions for their behavior is warranted.

On my planet, when someone who is required to stay clean and sober as a part of a drug treatment aftercare program (which they are enrolled in because they are/were a junkie) and they snort some lines, that is a failure of said program no matter how it is discovered.

Is the Angels owner Moreno also "showing support" by claiming the contract has "special language" and he can't say if Hamilton will ever play for the team again?

As obvious to almost everyone, the Angels are regretting a terrible deal. There is no "special language" Arte. You will be writing checks to Hamilton for quite some time.

I'd be shocked if there wasn't language in his contract given his history.

Question is, what does it say and how long of a fight could there be with the mlbpa

Even if you put that kind of language in, the CBA supercedes it. Hamilton will get paid unless he violates the terms of the cba.

What does tbe cba say about that type of scenario?

What type of scenario? The cba has a drug policy that dictates what is considered a violation and repurcussions for a violation. The teams and players are required to follow it and can't make up the their own - basically the entire premise of collective bargaining. You're outlining and agreeing to the rules that are to apply to everyone vs being able to do one-off arrangements in areas specifically covered by it.

My guess is the language requires him to fail a drug test.

Since he didn't fail one, he should still be paid by the Halos.

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Fri, Apr 10Angels owner Arte Moreno told reporters Friday that the team may use
provisions in Josh Hamilton's contract to seek legal action against him.

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If the language were in there otherwise, Moreno wouldn't need to be seeking legal counsel.

His remaining contract is:
$25.4M - 2015
$32.4M - 2016
$32.4M - 2017

In two years combined with the Halos... they've gotten an equivalent number of HRs\RBI\R as he gave the Rangers in 2012. We could probably add 2015 to that. Hamilton is hurt until the ASB, IIRC, so half this season will be worth nothing to the Halos.

Best the Halos can hope for is to pay 75% of his salary and dump him on someone.

$32.4M is a boatload of cash for a guy who won't likely do much for you at age 35 & 36.

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What type of scenario? The cba has a drug policy that dictates what is considered a violation and repurcussions for a violation. The teams and players are required to follow it and can't make up the their own - basically the entire premise of collective bargaining. You're outlining and agreeing to the rules that are to apply to everyone vs being able to do one-off arrangements in areas specifically covered by it.

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Well, I think that could be a little tricky.

The CBA allows for special agreements between players and teams as long as they are not inconsistent with the CBA. So, if you can picture a spectrum of sorts...

Agreements totally contradictory to CBA<......>Something Else<......>Agreement on something totally unaddressed by CBA

Something on the left might be something like "the player is not suspended if he fails a drug test". That's totally contradictory and clearly inconsistent with the CBA.

Something on the right might be something like "the player's son Jack's baseball team gets free hats" or maybe "the player can't visit Las Chicas Locas Strip Club on 45th St. during the season" or whatever...you get the idea. Something the CBA doesn't even contemplate. Something that, to me, seems clearly not inconsistent with the CBA.

But you have the gap in the middle when an agreement is made on something contemplated to some extent within the CBA, but isn't clearly contradictory. That something could be "drugs" and that agreement might be something like "if the player is deemed to have failed to comply with his treatment program pursuant to the Drug Agreement, he will be punished according to the Drug Agreement. But further, if there is sufficient evidence to suggest the player has used drugs, even if he's not found uncompliant, he is subject to team discipline" Or something like that. I'm sure there are holes in that example, but y'all must see what I mean.

Is that "inconsistent"? Eh. Maybe, I can definitely see the argument for why it is, but I can see the argument for why it isn't inconsistent.

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My guess is the language requires him to fail a drug test.

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What language?

I posted earlier that the language of the Drug Agreement does not require a failed test in order for a player to be suspended.

The "special language" of the Halos contract? Moreno probably wouldn't be pointing to that at this point, as Hamilton would have been punishable under the Drug Agreement if he failed a drug test. Barring the Angels setting up their own testing program...which to me would sound contradictory the Drug Agreement.

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If the language were in there otherwise, Moreno wouldn't need to be seeking legal counsel.

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Anytime you're contemplating trying not to pay someone who would otherwise by owed millions, and an arbitor has already shut down punishing that someone under some other contract, you absolutely seek legal counsel.

If the 'special terms' are something mushy like "probable cause" or "sufficient" or "conducting unbecoming" or something of that cut, you damn well better talk to legal counsel.


p.s. Moreno might be talking out of his ass. I'm not saying he's right on this matter.

Arte is shouting out of his ass. Even if this was considered a failure, it would be a suspension and he'd be back. Talking like they have any possibility of just walking away from the deal now is beyond ridiculous and couldn't be more inconsistent with the cba

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Talking like they have any possibility of just walking away from the deal now is beyond ridiculous and couldn't be more inconsistent with the cba

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Whether Moreno is talking out of his ass or not aside...

Its most definitely possible for a team and player to negotiate a special convenant that allows for termination of a contract.

On the specific question of drugs, while I realize the MLBPA today said the Drug Agreement "supersedes...all other contract provisions", that phrase is not anywhere in the CBA or Drug Agreement.

All they use is "inconsistent', which I would propose does not necessarily go nearly as far as the MLBPA is suggesting it does right now.