Gap, can you check my thinking?

Art. 3. A live ball is in the frontcourt or backcourt of the team in control as follows: a. A ball that is in contact with a player or with the playing court shall be in the backcourt when either the ball or the player (either player when the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt. It shall be in the frontcourt when neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt. b. A ball that is not in contact with a player or the playing court retains the same status as when it was last in contact with a player or the playing court. c. During a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball shall be in the frontcourt when both feet of the dribbler and the ball touch the playing court entirely in the frontcourt. Art. 4. A player shall not be the first to touch the ball in their backcourt (with any part of their body, voluntarily or involuntarily) when the ball came from the frontcourt while that player's team was in team control and that player or their teammate was the last to touch the ball before it went into the backcourt

So it requires two things:
1. Team control
2. Last to touch the ball

We know that we were the last to touch the ball. But what about 'team control'.

Art. 2. A team shall be in control when: a. A player of the team is in control; b. While a live ball is being passed between teammates; c. When a player of that team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in

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So yes, both requirements were met.

91AggieLawyer said:

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birdman said:

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We had possession and control when we triggered the in bounds pass. The rules excerpt doesn't clarify if control needs to be established on court.

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There's no control -- player or team -- during a throw in. Not legally speaking. Obviously, she's holding a ball and according to how one would define control in a dictionary found online or in a library, she's controlling it. But that's not how basketball rules work. The rule says what I said above. The reason is that if there were a foul before the throw in was made, they wouldn't want it to be considered a "team control" foul with no free-throws. Yes, they could write exceptions, but in this case, you'd have many exceptions.

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We did have 'team control'.

Art. 2. A team shall be in control when: a. A player of the team is in control; b. While a live ball is being passed between teammates; c. When a player of that team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in

Gap said:

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Go find the exception to that. It is there.

Otherwise every college basketball game for decades has had the same blown call with literally no crew calling it any other way.

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Do you think I am arguing that the ball can't be inbounded directly from the front court to the backcourt?

No exception is mentioned is mentioned in the entire 'team control' definition.

Uh-oh. Looks like I was wrong about a couple of things. Here is the current rule in its entirety:

Quote:

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Section 12. Backcourt
Art. 1. A team's frontcourt shall consist of that part of the playing court between its end line and the nearer edge of the division line, including its basket and the inbounds part of its backboard.
Art. 2. A team's backcourt consists of the rest of the playing court, including its opponent's basket and inbounds part of the backboard and the division line, excluding the mathematical edge nearest the team's basket.
Art. 3. A live ball is in the frontcourt or backcourt of the team in control as follows: a. A ball that is in contact with a player or with the playing court shall be in the backcourt when either the ball or the player (either player when the ball is touching more than one) is touching the backcourt. It shall be in the frontcourt when neither the ball nor the player is touching the backcourt. b. A ball that is not in contact with a player or the playing court retains the same status as when it was last in contact with a player or the playing court. c. During a dribble from backcourt to frontcourt, the ball shall be in the frontcourt when both feet of the dribbler and the ball touch the playing court entirely in the frontcourt.
Art. 4. A player shall not be the first to touch the ball in their backcourt (with any part of their body, voluntarily or involuntarily) when the ball came from the frontcourt while that player's team was in team control and that player or their teammate was the last to touch the ball before it went into the backcourt.
Art. 5. A pass in the frontcourt that is deflected by a defensive player so that the ball goes into the backcourt may be recovered by either team.
Art. 6. Regardless of where the throw-in spot is located, the throw-in team may cause the ball to go into the backcourt before player control has been established by the throw-in team on the playing court.
Art. 7. After the throw-in ends, an inbounds player in the frontcourt, who is not in control of the ball, may cause the ball to go into the backcourt.
Art. 8. A player who is the first to secure control of the ball in the frontcourt after a jump ball or a throw-in while both feet are off the playing court shall not be permitted to cause the ball to go into the backcourt, except as permitted in Rule 9-12.10.
Art. 9. A defensive player shall be permitted to secure control of the ball while both feet are off the playing court and land with one or both feet in the backcourt. It makes no difference if the first foot down was in the frontcourt or backcourt.
Art. 10. After a jump ball or during a throw-in, the player in their frontcourt, who makes the initial touch on the ball while both feet are off the playing court, may be the first to secure control of the ball and land with one or both feet in the backcourt. It makes no difference if the first foot down was in the frontcourt or backcourt.
PENALTY (Sections 7-12): The ball shall become dead or remain dead when a violation occurs. When the ball passes through a basket during the dead-ball period immediately after a violation, no point(s) can be scored. The ball shall be awarded to an opponent for a throw-in at a designated spot nearest to where the violation occurred.

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They've completely rewritten this rule from what I recall, but I've highlighted the key things here. I think the no team control during a throw-in is High School. Maybe they've changed that too. Who knows.

At any rate, there's still no violation. What I said may have been wrong but the reasons I said it are still essentially correct -- WHERE the throw-in occurs means nothing; as long as no team control is established IN the front court (on the playing court), this can't be a backcourt violation.

Sorry for the confusion. Seems to me this new wording makes the rule much more complicated than before, but I guess they felt they had to allow team control during a throw in for some reason.

This is the full definiton of 'team control'.

Section 8. ControlPlayer, Team Art. 1. A player shall be in control when: a. Holding a live ball; or b. Dribbling a live ball while inbounds. Art. 2. A team shall be in control when: a. A player of the team is in control; b. While a live ball is being passed between teammates; c. When a player of that team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in; or d. During an interrupted dribble. Note: The team in control is commonly referred to as the offense. The opponents of the team in control are commonly referred to as the defense. When neither team is in control of the ball, there is no offensive or defensive team. Art. 3. Team control shall continue until the ball is in flight during a try for goal, an opponent secures control or the ball becomes dead. Art. 4. There shall be no team control during: a. A jump ball; b. The tapping of a rebound (unless it is a try for goal); c. A try for goal after the ball is in flight; d. The period that follows any of these acts (a-c) while the ball is being batted (from the vicinity of other players) in an attempt to secure control; or e. A dead ball. Art. 5. Team control is re-established in Article 4 of this rule when a player secures control. Art. 6. "Control" for purposes of establishing the alternating-possession procedure occurs when: a. A player is in control; or b. The ball is handed/bounced to or placed at the disposal of the freethrower after a personal foul or placed at the disposal of a thrower-in.

What am I missing about us both having 'team control' and also being the last to touch it before retouching in the backcourt?

Those are the two requirements for a backcourt violation.

"Art. 4. A player shall not be the first to touch the ball in their backcourt (with any part of their body, voluntarily or involuntarily) when the ball came from the frontcourt while that player's team was in team control and that player or their teammate was the last to touch the ball before it went into the backcourt"

Well the ESPN alert I just got on my phone a couple a minutes ago has this headline "No call in final seconds helps Texas A&M escape with win."

2nd highest point total given up this year. Defense needs to buckle down!

Gap said:

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Y'all made me do the work:

NCAA Women's Basketball 2020-21 Rules Book. Go to page 73.
http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/WBR20.pdf

Quote:

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Art. 10. When the ball is located out of bounds, the thrower-in may pass the ball into the backcourt.

Art. 11. During any throw-in, the throw-in team may cause the ball to go into the backcourt regardless of where the throw-in spot is located.

Art. 12. After the throw-in ends, an inbounds player in the frontcourt who is not in control of the ball may cause the ball to go into the backcourt.

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That is the rule and a link to the official source.

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Interesting.. Who would have thought to look under 'Throw-in' instead of backcourt. Interesting how they don't call it an exception.

It directly contradicts the normal backcourt rules of being the last to touch and in team control.

aggiedrjdub said:

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Will the real Aggie basketball team please stand up?! Okay - trying to move past this game and look forward to Iowa
State

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Is that game in SA?

Yes I believe so

aggiedrjdub said:

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Yes I believe so

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I think so too. And no fans until sweet 16 I think.

Survive and advance.

I'd have preferred they saved some of their survival skills for later in the tournament, though.

We can hope

Watching the replay of the entire game and it certainly looks like early on we were slow getting back, our O was a little reckless under the paint. Do not force a shot in the paint , so kick it out.

Potcake said:

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And viewers just survived you two jackassess. Ugh. Beth actually out-badded her football broadcasts.

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Beth is good at her job in basketball and football. Get over that. Her sidekick tonight needed a lot of work...

Team played a few questionably close games earlier this year. Hope this one gets them to all snap into focus from here on out.

Well, one thing you can count on is ESPN and Michelle Voeple running with the Troy got robbed with the no call story. She already had her article up with it and the Troy coaches interview about it.

sharpdressedman said:

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Potcake said:

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Nah. It started at the end of the first half and accelerated in the 3rd but they were going full Craig Way everytime Troy had a posession and score. I get that blowouts are not fun but they were both outright pulling for Troy.

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Yep.

They were carried away with the desire to be the ones who called a NCAA Tourney history-making game, had Troy won. They blatantly kicked impartiality to the curb.

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And that is what I watched with the game volume muted and OUR guys calling the game