Bingo Bango Bongo said:

---

Someone who can hit the ball 230 and keep it in play consistently shouldn't be constantly finding themselves 50 yards out unless their iron game is absolutely god awful. For that person, I'd say it's not the driver that needs work to get to 270, it's the 2nd shot so that they aren't completely duffing it. Someone that hits the ball 230 and is playing the proper tees should be within 150-170 on most holes. If you are still finding yourself 50 out after that shot, the short game isn't where you need to focus.

---

Or playing the wrong tees.

yeah, I called that out in the middle. I guess tip #1 to breaking 100 is play the proper tees. Sometimes that may mean swallowing your pride when playing with your single digit, tips-playing buddies and being the one that rolls up to the whites. I see way too many golfers that aren't able to do this.

powerbelly said:

---

Bingo Bango Bongo said:

---

Someone who can hit the ball 230 and keep it in play consistently shouldn't be constantly finding themselves 50 yards out unless their iron game is absolutely god awful. For that person, I'd say it's not the driver that needs work to get to 270, it's the 2nd shot so that they aren't completely duffing it. Someone that hits the ball 230 and is playing the proper tees should be within 150-170 on most holes. If you are still finding yourself 50 out after that shot, the short game isn't where you need to focus.

---

Or playing the wrong tees.

---

Exactly. If you're shooting above 90 you should probably be playing one tee back from the ladies. At my course, if you play those tees, and hit it 230, youd be within 135 yards of the hole on all but one par 4.

I ranger my local on Saturday mornings and I have to try and move a group up at least once a month because they're playing the tips. Just because you are young and can hit one tee shot a round that goes straight about 280 (they also always think they hit 300+) doesnt mean you can play from 7200 yards. The rest of the time the jokers are pumping it 250 dead right into the houses and corn fields.

Bingo Bango Bongo said:

---

Someone who can hit the ball 230 and keep it in play consistently shouldn't be constantly finding themselves 50 yards out unless their iron game is absolutely god awful. For that person, I'd say it's not the driver that needs work to get to 270, it's the 2nd shot so that they aren't completely duffing it. Someone that hits the ball 230 and is playing the proper tees should be within 150-170 on most holes. If you are still finding yourself 50 out after that shot, the short game isn't where you need to focus.

---

Yes his iron game is awful.

Guess what he spends most of his time doing?

On the range with driver and irons.

For the average guy with limited time to practice, you aren't going to get better hitting the range once a week and working on your long game. You need serious lessons and consistent time devoted to crafting a better swing.

But this same guy, without having to go through that (not saying he shouldn't, but we're merely trying to break 100 dont forget), can easily shed 5-10 strokes off his score by focusing that same time on reading greens better, putting better, getting out of the sand, chipping it closer, and pitching it more consistently.. things that are shorter and simpler techniques and take a lot less time to get better at.

The guy shooting 101-108 is not your typical spray it everywhere guy. That guy is more likely shooting 120. The 101-108 guy keeps the ball mostly in play. He's around or on the green in 3 strokes on most par 4's. My goal is for him to get in the hole no worse than 5 on most of those holes. That alone will get him under 100.

Someone that needs 3 strokes to get around the green on a par 4 has a spraying problem. Maybe it's the driver, maybe it's the irons, maybe it's both.

Also, I've yet to find a lousy iron player that was really sharp at chipping. There's some cross-over to being able to put an iron face squarely on the ball, so cleaning up the iron game (lessons may be necessary) will help both.

And who wants to "merely break 100"? I've already called that fallacy out on this thread. We all just want to cut the most strokes in the most efficient way possible. 100 is just a natural measuring stick.

watty said:

---

The typical guy shooting 101-108 is absolutely spraying it everywhere. You must be picturing one guy who is an exception to every rule. The number of golfers who are keeping the ball in play, while hitting it 200-230 yards off the tee, yet can't break 100, is very small.

---

There's no one guy.

Again, the guy who is spraying it, he's not breaking 100 anytime soon just hitting the range and working on his driver. His swing is bad and he needs a series of lessons and a lot of time committed to form a proper swing, with a proper stance, and good grip, and get on plane. He then needs even more practice until he is squaring it up consistently. This guys isn't floating around 100. This guy is scoring 7's or 8's on most holes when he isn't taking muligans.

The guy who is actually flirting with 100 is mostly keeping the ball in play. And this guy is still likely to hit some shots in water or OB even with an improved long game. Putting the focus there is ignoring what is, more times than not, the true problem.. that he can't get the ball near the hole when he has the chance. Whether he takes 2, 3, or 4 to get it on the green. If he has spent some time learning how to be more consistent with these shorter, easier swings, he will drop strokes.

Great book.

mazag08 said:

---

watty said:

---

The typical guy shooting 101-108 is absolutely spraying it everywhere. You must be picturing one guy who is an exception to every rule. The number of golfers who are keeping the ball in play, while hitting it 200-230 yards off the tee, yet can't break 100, is very small.

---

There's no one guy.

Again, the guy who is spraying it, he's not breaking 100 anytime soon just hitting the range and working on his driver. His swing is bad and he needs a series of lessons and a lot of time committed to form a proper swing, with a proper stance, and good grip, and get on plane. He then needs even more practice until he is squaring it up consistently. This guys isn't floating around 100. This guy is scoring 7's or 8's on most holes when he isn't taking muligans.

The guy who is actually flirting with 100 is mostly keeping the ball in play. And this guy is still likely to hit some shots in water or OB even with an improved long game. Putting the focus there is ignoring what is, more times than not, the true problem.. that he can't get the ball near the hole when he has the chance. Whether he takes 2, 3, or 4 to get it on the green. If he has spent some time learning how to be more consistent with these shorter, easier swings, he will drop strokes.

---

I agree there is not "one guy," but I side much more with watty.

I have a friend that averages high 90's/low 100's. He plays like a mid 80's player inside 150 yards; he probably hits 40-50% GIR from 75-150, has pretty good touch on chip shots, and has good speed with his putter (doesn't make a ton, but doesn't 3-putt much... is pretty good inside 5 feet.). His issue is his driver and mid/long irons. In a typical round, he probably hits driver 12 times & hits 3 balls OB, 2 balls in a hazard, and 4 balls in the trees or high stuff. He swings too hard with driver, and I've seen him slow it down and have much better results... but he'll only do it for 1-2 holes here and there before reverting back. When he hits a long iron or hybrid off the tee, his misses aren't as bad as his driver but seem to just get him in the trees/tall stuff/occasional OB.

I have another friend that had a bad year last year. He averaged like 90-92 after being at 86-88 for a couple years. He watched 4-5 hours of Rick Shiels videos, practiced his swing in the backyard for a few minutes daily, and went to the range 2-3 times/week for the first 4-6 weeks of Covid. He's averaged ~85 so far this season, and his swing looks so much easier. His tempo is noticeably better, especially with his driver... he's a fairway machine now. He's just starting to work more on his short game, and I'm hoping it can take another 2-3 strokes off.

Chipotlemonger said:

---

I speak from experience. To break 100 it is much easier to focus on the full swing over all else. When you put a good round together the strokes will drop dramatically and instead of grinding it out for a *potential* 99 you'll end up with a lower 90's score. You can jump from 107-110 a round to 95/round and do it more consistently than resorting to grind out 7-10 short game strokes a round.

---

Each golfer is different, but this is 100% the case for me. I'm new to golf and have been trying to get to the range 2-3 times per week for the past month. I played a round of scramble last week and just the help of using someone else's tee shot, that wasn't great but didn't cost me a stroke, made me a bogey golfer with several pars sprinkled in.

proudaggie02 said:

---

mazag08 said:

---

watty said:

---

The typical guy shooting 101-108 is absolutely spraying it everywhere. You must be picturing one guy who is an exception to every rule. The number of golfers who are keeping the ball in play, while hitting it 200-230 yards off the tee, yet can't break 100, is very small.

---

There's no one guy.

Again, the guy who is spraying it, he's not breaking 100 anytime soon just hitting the range and working on his driver. His swing is bad and he needs a series of lessons and a lot of time committed to form a proper swing, with a proper stance, and good grip, and get on plane. He then needs even more practice until he is squaring it up consistently. This guys isn't floating around 100. This guy is scoring 7's or 8's on most holes when he isn't taking muligans.

The guy who is actually flirting with 100 is mostly keeping the ball in play. And this guy is still likely to hit some shots in water or OB even with an improved long game. Putting the focus there is ignoring what is, more times than not, the true problem.. that he can't get the ball near the hole when he has the chance. Whether he takes 2, 3, or 4 to get it on the green. If he has spent some time learning how to be more consistent with these shorter, easier swings, he will drop strokes.

---

I agree there is not "one guy," but I side much more with watty.

I have a friend that averages high 90's/low 100's. He plays like a mid 80's player inside 150 yards; he probably hits 40-50% GIR from 75-150, has pretty good touch on chip shots, and has good speed with his putter (doesn't make a ton, but doesn't 3-putt much... is pretty good inside 5 feet.). His issue is his driver and mid/long irons. In a typical round, he probably hits driver 12 times & hits 3 balls OB, 2 balls in a hazard, and 4 balls in the trees or high stuff. He swings too hard with driver, and I've seen him slow it down and have much better results... but he'll only do it for 1-2 holes here and there before reverting back. When he hits a long iron or hybrid off the tee, his misses aren't as bad as his driver but seem to just get him in the trees/tall stuff/occasional OB.

I have another friend that had a bad year last year. He averaged like 90-92 after being at 86-88 for a couple years. He watched 4-5 hours of Rick Shiels videos, practiced his swing in the backyard for a few minutes daily, and went to the range 2-3 times/week for the first 4-6 weeks of Covid. He's averaged ~85 so far this season, and his swing looks so much easier. His tempo is noticeably better, especially with his driver... he's a fairway machine now. He's just starting to work more on his short game, and I'm hoping it can take another 2-3 strokes off.

---

At this point, I would say I am more similar to the first friend you described. Inside 150, I play like a mid 80s player... Just struggling with consistency with long irons and drivers.

I have also been using Rick Shiels videos and highly recommend them!

I agree the short game doesn't take much time to get pretty good.

some thoughts in no particular order:
- let yourself hit good shots. after a slice into the woods, if you can't put a real swing on the ball, take your medicine and get the ball to a spot you can hit a real shot - don't rely on hero moves
- let yourself hit good shots. if its a 400yd p4, rather than hoping for 260 with your driver and introducing 50% likelihood of trouble - hit something your 75% confident in and play for bogey. id rather have a 75% chance of hitting an honest 5 iron in, than a 25% chance of a 9 iron.
- the round is 18 holes long. if you're in trouble, take the medicine, book your double, and don't risk turning it into a quad. you've got 17 holes to dilute 1 bad one.
- putting - I don't understand bad putters. I understand having bad days. It's like free throws - practice it and you'll get better.
- don't quit on a hole. not meaning pick up, meaning EVERY SHOT COUNTS, so if you make a mistake, get yourself into a place you can finish it with dignity.
- don't be scared to putt from anywhere - fairway, rough, trap... objective #1 is get through your trouble, then onto the green. don't forget to check the lip when youre in a trap, but it's an extremely under utilized strategy (just hit the ball though, no sand). make sure you hit the ball hard enough - remember your trying to get through crap, and it's often up hill - I like to add a little wrist flip to get the extra 20-40% you need.
- short par 4s, play to a distance you like on the approach. higher handicappers get little value out of a 30yd pitch vs a 100 PW.
- have fun - know you can make the shots and the putts.

^
Some good points. I played with a friend recently that needed to bogey 18 to shoot 89 (which was a goal he'd set before the round). He had 170 from the fairway to a back pin... green is 40 yards deep, pin is 34-35 yards on, the back 12-14 yards of the green is on a shelf that is severely raised, the width of the green pinches in at the back 1/3, and there are bunkers on both sides of the green. My friend played his distance at the pin, hit it in a bunker that was way below the pin, and he made double bogey.

The point of my story is that a lot of golfers would be better off to properly analyze the % of hitting certain shots based on their skill level and the situation. My friend could've hit an 8i to the front/middle of the green, which would've either given him a 40-50 footer or kept him short of the bunkers if he missed the green. But he hit the low-percentage shot and paid for it.

to supplement proud's commentary - the very least, play to the back of the green; usually means an extra club. in real life, high handicappers hit about 85% the distance they think they do. 9/10 times there's more trouble in front of the green vs the back.

I still struggle with this, but I'm getting better.

A couple rounds ago I told myself to take extra club even though the pin was in the front, because so were the bunkers. And leaving it short meant chipping to a green well above me, vs the back of the green which was more level.

My absolute best 7i would've put me over the back of the green by 5-10 yards. 15-20 yards over the back would've put me OB, so there was still some danger, but I knew the chances of hitting it that far were pretty slim.

I put it right in line, but caught it pretty thin. Thought for sure it was going hit the back of the green and fly way off the back, potentially OB. Instead it hit in the middle of the green and rolled just into the first cut of rough. I think I still hit putter.

Unless you're hitting a wedge, blading it isn't the danger you think it is.

Good lesson as far as front pins go... that is the "minimum" required... there's an entire green behind it... play to the middle unless there are severe extenuating circumstances.

So this weekend I put the driver in play for the first time in a while. In no small part because of this thread. So I thought this would be some good perspective.

My last round I shot 95 hitting only 3H off the tee, right down the middle every time. One major blowup hole where I carded a 10 on a par 5. Otherwise 5 doubles, 8 bogeys, 4 pars. Never managed to get up and down for par. 3 putt bogeyed twice(once from like 80 ft.). My most consistent round ever, and left me feeling like what I saw was repeatable, and I should expect to break 100 every time out.



I have slowly been working the driver back into my practice sessions over the last 3 weeks, and finally got to a point where I felt confident there would be no 50 yard slices. On the launch monitor I was carrying 230 minimum on mediocre strikes. 250+ on good strikes. 230 yards is a good 3w for me, so I figured this would be a good strategy test.

As you might expect my scorecard was way more erratic. Ended up shooting 100. The last 6 holes or so turned into a total crap shoot though. Walking in the heat, with a little bit of a cold, fatigue really set in. The last few holes I couldn't feel anything and my swing became a total guessing game. But if you look at the front 9 I think it's a good illustration of the kind of issues driver can cause for the golfer struggling to break 100.



Hole 1 - 235 yards in the middle. 155 to the middle. I pull 7 iron which is plenty. Too good and I'm still on the back of the green. But I violate another rule for the hacker. NEVER AIM SO THAT A GOOD SHOT TURNS OUT BAD. I've been struggling some with pulling the ball and I tried to outsmart myself. Even my good shots on the range tend to be 5-10 yards left. I ended up hitting it dead straight and pure . . . into tall grass, lost ball. triple bogey.

--Test Result - Driver had me hitting 7i instead of 5i. not driver's fault I hit a bad approach.

Hole 2 - learned my lesson on alignment. aim right of the green because there's water on left, but into a safe area. pull the ball kinda bad, but still hit the green. Par

Hole 3 - It's a short hole, and a well hit driver brings water into play. Mediocre 3w goes 215. 9 iron 135. 3 putt bogey. Yuck

--Test Result - good decision to not hit driver.

hole 4 - Wide open fairway. aim down the middle. 230 yds, left of the fairway a tad but a good lie. A chunky 52* barely catches the green. two putt par.

--Test Result - a BAD approach shot still found the green and I parred because of it. vs maybe an 8i hanging back. tough to say. a bad 8i probably misses the green. The risk/reward is in favor of driver here.

Hole 5 - again water on the right but not reachable. hit driver 230 and it's right of the fairway in a bad baked lie, behind a tree, 160 out. I try a dumb shot and dump it in the water. triple bogey

--Test Result - So part of this is course management for sure. I shouldn't have tried the hero shot. I couldv'e punched it a few yards into the fairway and probably had a 9 iron to the green and a likely bogey. a 200 yard tee shot in the middle actually have been pretty good because of the dogleg. losing the shot right cost me 20 yards easily. probably still would've been hitting 7i. dunno if it was worth the driver on this hole

Hole 6 - A longish, straight hole. Driver is 230, barely off the right side. Chunky 7i goes 150 and hits green. Missing short would've been a tough chip so good decision to club up. Par

--TestResult - I don't par this hole without driver.

hole 7 - Par 3. Miss green left a tad. up and down for Par

hole 8 - Here we go. very tough driving hole. but playing the middle leaves you 200 out. BAD drive out of bounds. 2nd drive in the trees. compounding errors on approach. +5. ouch.

--Test Result - ehhhh. probably should've played for bogey here?

hole 9 - another bad drive. attempted punch out from the trees is barely gets to the fairway. compounding errors results in a triple.

-- Test result - Again a more conservative approach after the bad drive probably gets me a good chance at bogey. It's on me that it turned out really bad, not the driver. But on a par 5 I probably should've played for 3h-3h-Wedge and had a good chance to par.

Overall I think I was certainly no worse off hitting driver. With better course management I coast to another 95 even with some bad drives. For sure it got me a couple of pars that I otherwise wouldn't have had. But it felt worse throughout the day. had me more frustrated and pressing. YMMV

Keep your head still.

Choked up or lightly hit 2-iron to chip? I heard about this a few days ago and wondered if anyone actually tries this.

I dont' know anyone I golf with that has a 2 iron. In fact, the last person I know to game a 2 iron was my dad, and he died in 2003.

I got a 2 iron for Christmas and I hit it better than any other club right now.

Is it a legit 2 iron or more of a specialty driving or utility iron?

MooreTrucker said:

---

Choked up or lightly hit 2-iron to chip? I heard about this a few days ago and wondered if anyone actually tries this.

---

I play a bump and run with a 7i quite a bit. I haven't even seen a 2i in 20 years. The 7i bump and run is good for beginners. Takes the possibility of skulling a chip out of the equation and it works well on crappy muni courses with bare patches and thin grass.

Legit 2 iron

Milwaukees Best Light said:

---

MooreTrucker said:

---

Choked up or lightly hit 2-iron to chip? I heard about this a few days ago and wondered if anyone actually tries this.

---

I play a bump and run with a 7i quite a bit. I haven't even seen a 2i in 20 years. The 7i bump and run is good for beginners. Takes the possibility of skulling a chip out of the equation and it works well on crappy muni courses with bare patches and thin grass.

---

Was taught this at A&M when I took golf as elective. (Also took bowling! Fun times,) The 'rule' was take a 7 or 8 iron and bump onto the green where 1/3 of the distance was covered in the air, 2/3 on the roll. You're pretty much guaranteed to send it on the right line, distance control left as the wild card.

Not really any different than a hybrid/fairway wood bump.

I've never been any good at it though. 7-8i bump is as little of loft as I can effectively use.