Tried this as a footnote on the football board. Let's try it here. Why do the OD's and the PMC wear long sleeve "winter" uniforms to day games in September? This isn't my first trip to the county fair. I know I'm leaving myself open for a response like this....".You damn 2%er, we always do because we always have."

Because gloves with short sleeves look a bit silly? No, that can't be it, as the Corps routinely wears gloves with short sleeves. <shrug>

Officers always wear their best on the battlefield.

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Because gloves with short sleeves look a bit silly? No, that can't be it, as the Corps routinely wears gloves with short sleeves. <shrug>

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The Corps technically got rid of that habit about 8 years ago, marching in with gloves in bravos. Is it back?

Regarding the OP, back in the day,I think long sleeves were the norm. As far as wearing the midnights,I suspect they want to stand out. Although there are plenty of pics of the corps wearing that uniform to games in the 30s and there abouts.

No idea. Just reminiscing....

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Because gloves with short sleeves look a bit silly? No, that can't be it, as the Corps routinely wears gloves with short sleeves. <shrug>

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The Corps technically got rid of that habit about 8 years ago, marching in with gloves in bravos. Is it back?

Regarding the OP, back in the day,I think long sleeves were the norm. As far as wearing the midnights,I suspect they want to stand out. Although there are plenty of pics of the corps wearing that uniform to games in the 30s and there abouts.

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I would throw in, just for the hell of it, midnights do a much better job of concealing horse hair, as compared to bravos.

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Tried this as a footnote on the football board. Let's try it here. Why do the OD's and the PMC wear long sleeve "winter" uniforms to day games in September? This isn't my first trip to the county fair. I know I'm leaving myself open for a response like this....".You damn 2%er, we always do because we always have."

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I can only answer with rectitude the second part of the question - why does PMC wear midnights to games. The current PMC uniform, when originally adopted, was the 1920s Cadet Class B uniform, complete with A-G-G-I-E and US ROTC patches and AMC brass, rank on sleeve or epaulet. Its technically not Corps midnights. It is the official PMC uniform.

Cadets in the 1920s were permitted to wear the B uniform to football games. See, e.g. Waco early 1920s - farm4.staticflickr.com/3524/3221215096_06a5d618d7_o.jpg.

That uniform is consistent with the PMC Mission - "To preserve the traditions of Texas A&M University represented by the cavalry and field units of the pre-World War II era. To train leaders of character, for cadets to become knowledgable in horsemanship." See Cavalry Sgts - bookreader.library.tamu.edu/book.php?id=yb1925&getbook=Go#page/n172/mode/1up.

93......Thank you for your prompt, courteous, on point answer. My concern is for the cadets, it's got to be hotter than Hades out there in the daytime in September. Since you seem to be knowledgeable on PMC matters, let me express a pet peeve, that I doubt anything is apt to change in the foreseeable future. That is the cadets on the gun crew are artillerymen and should be wearing red braid, not yellow.

aggiejim, great question. I'm a current senior in the PMC Half Section, better known as the cannon crew. We don't wear the red cord of the artillery branch because the red cord was designated for members of the corps who were Red Pots. Because Bonfire is no longer a university sanctioned event, those members of the corps who still become Red Pots are prohibited by the current staff from wearing the cord that they have earned. It is out of respect for them that we continue to wear the Normal PMC yellow cord.

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I think he may have been referring to the campaign hat cord, which, back in the day, designated your branch. Not the shoulder cord. And in my day, red pots did not have a uniform cord on their shoulder, nor anywhere else.

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That is correct.

That's a good point that I've never really thought of about the hat cord. I can definitely look into it, and I am all for getting these kinds of details right. As for the shoulder cord, this is what I've been told by my Bonfire friends as well as former members of the cannon crew, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if this was something that was added between your time and mine.

Oh, things definitely change. We could go on for hours about uniform changes and new traditions since 1977. For instance, the Cav is no longer a bunch of cowboys who brought their cow ponies down to Aggieland because they thought it would be fun. When I showed up in the fall of '73, we White Band fish took our horns out to where the Cav was at the time, and played as they rode by. It was a bit of a rodeo. But they were still a few weeks from their first march in, so it was good experience for them.

We old farts may grump, but don't think we are critizing the way things are done now. We appreciate the current guys, it's just sort of a sport for us to talk about how things change.

Right you are. There have been numerous changes over the years. When I was a fish in the White Band in '66,
we were the last class to be issued khakis. When I picked up my uniforms in '67 and those damn things were gone, I was a happy camper.

Now, let's cut to the chase. One of the oldest Texas Aggies I ever met was Col. Stewart Hervy '17. That's the first class of '17. Last remembrance of him was watching him set up chairs at Muster in the 80's. He was there when they put away the grey "West Point" style uniforms and changed to the style that over time has morphed into the uniform we know today, He told me the sentiment on campus was that before a real Texas Aggie would take off the grey and put on those stupid boots they ought to burn the place down and give it back to the Indians.

I think you've mentioned that story before, but I never tire of hearing it. As a 5th year senior, I rented a duplex on Oney Hervey Road in College Station. Probably the same family.

I don't mind the changes, I just hate the fake stories that accompany them. For instance, pennies on Sully, not a bad new tradition. But the made up crap about "Sully used to tutor cadets and charge them a penny for their thoughts" is annoying.

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I think he may have been referring to the campaign hat cord, which, back in the day, designated your branch. Not the shoulder cord. And in my day, red pots did not have a uniform cord on their shoulder, nor anywhere else.

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Seems like there are shoulder cords everywhere these days. I remember only about four or five from my time and, with the exception of RVs and the Fish Drill Team, they were for the handful of units that won a major annual award. The cords scarcity was an important part of their desirability. Any idea how many are there now?

Nevermind, I just recalled an old thread. My question was already addressed here: Tabs, Cords and Ribbons

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93......Thank you for your prompt, courteous, on point answer. My concern is for the cadets, it's got to be hotter than Hades out there in the daytime in September. Since you seem to be knowledgeable on PMC matters, let me express a pet peeve, that I doubt anything is apt to change in the foreseeable future. That is the cadets on the gun crew are artillerymen and should be wearing red braid, not yellow.

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Concur. It was a point of argument when I was there. Its not only a red braid - the members of the Artillery Half Section should also be wearing the red, not yellow, US ROTC left breast pocket patch (these were also color coded), and should have artillery brass.

There are other deviations about which I complained (and sometimes still do). They have yet to be addressed.

Also, the midnights are not terribly hot. You get used to it, just like wearing A Summers with White Gloves for the marchin. Its just the ways its done.

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That's a good point that I've never really thought of about the hat cord. I can definitely look into it, and I am all for getting these kinds of details right. As for the shoulder cord, this is what I've been told by my Bonfire friends as well as former members of the cannon crew, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least bit if this was something that was added between your time and mine.

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If it becomes a goal to get back to closer compliance with the period correct 1920-1940 AMC Class B uniform worn by the AMC Cav Troops, the following would need to be addressed:

1) Jrs and Sophs - brown low quarters;
2) Jrs and Sophs - M1917 leggings (as worn also 1982 - early 2000s) http://onlinemilitaria.net/products/5123-US-1917-Mounted-Pattern-Canvas-Leggings-with-Leather/ ;
3) Jrs and Sophs - dark, not current yellow rank;
4) all - black tie, not brown;
5) all - no stack on covers (stacks were worn by AMC Cavalry on Service Cover, not Campaign cover);
6) artillery half section - red hat cord, red USROTC patch, artillery brass;
7) all - chin straps, no straps behind the head (not sure when changed, definitively under the chin 1982-1995)
8) Zips - M1902 Cavalry Spurs (knobs, no rowels).

I wish you well in changes you can implement.

I suspect there will always be a need to balance authenticity with cost and appearance. Some things that would be period correct would not necessarily be attractive or cheap.

And Parson's Cav has lineage back to 1973, not 1920. There was a huge gap starting with WWII. So I would understand if the present Cav wanted to keep some appearances that are more in line with Parsons than with 1920.

Either way, I think they look good and do a great job. No more rodeos, anyway.

I remember the general groan when the Campaign Hat was reintroduced. Hot, heavy, uncomfortable, archaic and cumbersome when we uncovered. For some reason I still have mine. I pull it out and glare at it every now and then..........

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I suspect there will always be a need to balance authenticity with cost and appearance. Some things that would be period correct would not necessarily be attractive or cheap.

And Parson's Cav has lineage back to 1973, not 1920. There was a huge gap starting with WWII. So I would understand if the present Cav wanted to keep some appearances that are more in line with Parsons than with 1920.

Either way, I think they look good and do a great job. No more rodeos, anyway.

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Understood, but here's the problem - the PMC mission is directed to that 1920-1940 period:

"Purpose:To preserve the traditions of Texas A&M University represented by the cavalry and field units of the pre-World War II era. To train leaders of character, for cadets to become knowledgable in horsemanship."

https://stuactonline.tamu.edu/app/organization/profile/public/id/938

So, if its your purpose to preserve that period, you try your best to do so. We did so in the late 80s, early 90s.

PMC started 1973 as noted. In 1984 at the insistence of the Cav's then-advisor Capt. Kennedy, the Cav worked to be be historically accurate in its appearance, particularly as the Cav began preparations for the 1985 Presidential Inaugural Parade. This was the adoption of the midnight set currently used, and the patches used. Use of the period correct M1917 leggings lasted through at least as late as 2007.

The decisions made to abandon then-current uniform components were made by administrators (then present Cav Jocks have related this directly). For example, PMC wore the M1917 leggings from 84-2007. There was a decision to discontinue the practice, despite the offer from old Cav Jocks to pay for more. There was a decision from the administrators to abandon the chin strap, also present at least 1984-1995 - which does not have a cost. No good reason in light of purpose.

The items listed are actually minimal in cost, as all items other than (2) are alternatives to current purchase/issuance.

Also, the uniform selection was made not made in relation to that worn by Col. Parsons '49 (not possessive, not plural, name ends with an S). He was an active supporter, always present for PMC Final Review to award the new CO a saber.. Fortunately, his wife continues the tradition.

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Also, the uniform selection was made not made in relation to that worn by Col. Parsons '49

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I meant that the current Cav might have some tradition/affection for some of the stuff worn back in the 70s and 80s, when the current Cav was reborn and named in honor of Parsons. If they wanted to look like Parsons, they would have worn the Army dress uniform of 1973.

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Also, the uniform selection was made not made in relation to that worn by Col. Parsons '49

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I meant that the current Cav might have some tradition/affection for some of the stuff worn back in the 70s and 80s, when the current Cav was reborn and named in honor of Parsons. If they wanted to look like Parsons, they would have worn the Army dress uniform of 1973.

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Ah, understood. A good point, but not applicable.

Having been a Cav Jock just after that period I can convey that I am unaware of any such items, and I was in a position to have such knowledge, as I had responsibility for maintaining the uniform components that PMC had at the time.

Just to address some of the points you have brought up, and as a note sophomores don't wear the uniform because they have not yet earned their cord.

1) To accommodate for cost like somebody else said, we all just wear brown cowboy boots as juniors.
2) We used to wear the canvas leggings up until a few years ago, but the brown leather leggings we currently wear for not just for ride-ins and parades, but for weekly riding class as well, do a pretty solid job of protecting us and the horses from rubbing and when going through brush at The Green.
3)These lighter ranks are what Sarge's and Miitary Depot provide. It's possible the darker rank was a pass down and had more dirt/wear on it giving the darker appearance.
4)The beige tie with Cav mids has been part of our uniform for a while, and this goes with the rest of the corps model of black tie with winter bravos and beige with mids.
5)The U.S. Army Half Section wears a stack on their campaign cover like us. We have also gone a few years without wearing the service cover for a march-in, something we might discuss bringing back for a game or two this year.
6) We already wear artillery brass. The red cord is something my class of half section guys have already discussed, albeit briefly.
7) We really only wear chinstraps when it is windy, its more of a comfort thing than anything
8) We are actually not allowed to ride with the roweled spurs. We are gifted cavalry spurs with our names and class year engraved in them upon completion of our junior year in PMC.

Thanks for a complete and articulate response. Differences over time. We had Sophomores, Juniors and Seniors in my day, which has long since passed.

Ride On.

A few points for clarification.

Wearing the leather puttees at the Green makes sense. Ideally, the period correct M1917 leggings would be used in parades, like the difference in saddle pads. Give it some thought. I suspect old Cav Jocks, if asked, would pay for them.

By lighter rank, I mean noticeably different in color - not a cleanliness difference. The period correct rank would be buff-on-blue stripes, rather than yellow (started 1948). Same thing - old Cav Jocks would pay for, it there were regular contact with the current PMC.

By lack of stack, I meant no stack on campaign covers (the stack was only worn on the bus driver hat), which the AMC Cavalry Troops wore with what is considered the Winter A uniform. See here about 1942 (outside PMC Purpose range) - campaign covers- no stack. Definitely a bridge too far here. Not going to see this extreme a change.

Good to know on the chin strap. We wore them all the time. It gets comfortable pretty fast, and it helpful when at a lope.

The spur gift is relatively new (post 95) and is a great idea.

Enjoy the hell out of being in the Cav. Nothing like it.

So you must have been a fish in the fall of 1970. During my tenure showing up at a formation in a campaign hat would have damn near get you rammed out of school. Interesting that things changed so fast.

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Long sleeves and ties at a football game; didn't hurt them then, won't hurt them now

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Long sleeves and ties at a football game; didn't hurt them then, won't hurt them now

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.....but....but.... Global Warming?

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So you must have been a fish in the fall of 1970. During my tenure showing up at a formation in a campaign hat would have damn near get you rammed out of school. Interesting that things changed so fast.

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Not sure what you mean by "showing up" in a campaign hat. We were issued them and told when to wear them.

Wearing one to formation, wearing one to class, or anything else while in uniform with the possible exception of midnight yell practice. Same was true of Ike Jackets
the green pants, or any of the other uniform items that were done away with over the transition period from AMC to AMU. Now, if you really had a death wish, get caught with a board or axe handle in your room. If you did, there was no presumption of innocence, you had to prove you never used it to beat hinny. Being resourceful Aggies, my upperclassmen swung a mean broom

Question, did the campaign hats replace the white pots for the FTAB?

I think I see the misunderstanding. Beginning at some time just before or as I came to A&M in fall of 1973, the camaign hats were re-issued as daily uniform wear. It seems like we still used the pots (helmet liners) for rain gear in the fall of 1973, but by the spring, there were enough issued that they were the required rain gear. With a plastic cover, of course.

BQs still hung on to the white pots for Drum and Bugle Corps (beat and blow) and for Bonfire.

So they weren't a "pull out" in my day, they were official uniform.

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I think I see the misunderstanding. Beginning at some time just before or as I came to A&M in fall of 1973, the camaign hats were re-issued as daily uniform wear. It seems like we still used the pots (helmet liners) for rain gear in the fall of 1973, but by the spring, there were enough issued that they were the required rain gear. With a plastic cover, of course.

BQs still hung on to the white pots for Drum and Bugle Corps (beat and blow) and for Bonfire.

So they weren't a "pull out" in my day, they were official uniform.

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This. Some march-ins and Corps Trips, too, as I recall.

They were the required headgear for FOW, guard room, and maybe authorized for wear with the rain overcoat in the early 2000s. I don't think we wore them any other time.

As an aside, I was being talked to death by a command historian once who was convinced that the Army should bring back the campaign hat as the official Army headgear. He was convinced that it was the best choice for some reason