WestUAg said:

---

Rosie cannon ball is a good call, they will allow you to order off the wine list from March…it's a magnificent list.

Pappas downtown will also have an amazing list.

---

But if you stick with Rosie's list, which is substantial, it is 50% off per bottle on Sunday night.

And on another subject it's perfectly fine (preferred IMO) for you to tell the server "thank you, leave the bottle and I will pour". Servers are trained to get the bottle empty as quickly as possible so you'll buy another bottle.

Stumbled across the Substack article linked below on the situation facing Napa wine producers. Turns out the author has written a series of articles on the topic -- discussing the growth of downtown tasting rooms and their impacts on winery visits; the damaging nature of wine scores; the sameness of marketing language; the challenges different types of owners face; and other relevant issues.

I didn't recognize the name right away, but he's the co-founder of Long Meadow Ranch in the valley, and a guy with a long history of business consulting. So he has a little bit of expertise.

Anyway, worth a read if you're interested in the future of Napa wines. From this one link you can find the rest of his recent articles.

https://ted241.substack.com/p/the-great-napa-valley-overpour

EclipseAg said:

---

Stumbled across the Substack article linked below on the situation facing Napa wine producers. Turns out the author has written a series of articles on the topic -- discussing the growth of downtown tasting rooms and their impacts on winery visits; the damaging nature of wine scores; the sameness of marketing language; the challenges different types of owners face; and other relevant issues.

I didn't recognize the name right away, but he's the co-founder of Long Meadow Ranch in the valley, and a guy with a long history of business consulting. So he has a little bit of expertise.

Anyway, worth a read if you're interested in the future of Napa wines. From this one link you can find the rest of his recent articles.

https://ted241.substack.com/p/the-great-napa-valley-overpour

---

My biggest issue with wineries in Napa is the pricing for tasting. Dana wanted $250/person.

Did that include a meal/pairings? I have seen more and more of that being offered and available at wineries, but I think if too many places do that as the default then they might be losing traffic.

Chipotlemonger said:

---

Did that include a meal/pairings? I have seen more and more of that being offered and available at wineries, but I think if too many places do that as the default then they might be losing traffic.

---

That's a point that Hall makes in one of his posts. Napa wineries have responded to lower traffic by offering longer, more expensive tastings. The end result is that visitors experience fewer tastings during a trip, which reduces industry revenue overall since fewer visits means fewer bottles sold and clubs joined.

The cost and time involved are also driving consumers to downtown tasting rooms, where they can walk in, order by the glass and then walk to another room.

Pretty sure it's similar at any wine tasting area. It is here... not necessarily $250 tastings, but doing whatever you can to get traffic, be it having a Rhino on site or whatever.

I don't mind making reservations and paying for tastings. IMO, it's much better than the pre-Covid Napa model of taste three wines standing at the bar in the tasting room and hear a wine club pitch, but anything over $100 per person doesn't work for me. $250 is crazy. At least at Antica Terra, their $150 pp tasting comes with food.

jh0400 said:

---

I don't mind making reservations and paying for tastings. IMO, it's much better than the pre-Covid Napa model of taste three wines standing at the bar in the tasting room and hear a wine club pitch, but anything over $100 per person doesn't work for me. $250 is crazy. At least at Antica Terra, their $150 pp tasting comes with food.

---

You could always do private, reserved tastings at most places. Walk ups are, as you said, a beating.

When I was a Napa visitor, my wallet couldn't support a private tasting as an "expensive" bottle for me at the time was a $50 bottle of Artemis or Cakebread chard.

I get why most Napa wineries don't sell by the glass. Leads to waste; reduces club sign-ups; requires different staff training, increases liability, etc., etc.

Their business model is completely different and I can respect that.

But I much prefer walking in and ordering a glass to a formal tasting.

Chipotlemonger said:

---

Did that include a meal/pairings? I have seen more and more of that being offered and available at wineries, but I think if too many places do that as the default then they might be losing traffic.

---

No food, just tasting their tastings. Way over priced. Would much rather use that $250 to buy a bottle

We're experiencing the same tasting inflation right now as we just finalized our itinerary for Napa end of May. Excluding places we're members or have a connection , the cheapest spot is Schramsberg cave tour and tasting for $100 per person. All our other wineries range from $125-$175 per person for tastings.

There was one option we considered that was a free tasting, but they only make one wine a year and request a minimum of 3 bottle purchase at $400/bottle. Another spot we looked at was $250/person for 4 course lunch and pairings but it wasn't at the winery and their wines aren't my style.

QBCade said:

---

Chipotlemonger said:

---

Did that include a meal/pairings? I have seen more and more of that being offered and available at wineries, but I think if too many places do that as the default then they might be losing traffic.

---

No food, just tasting their tastings. Way over priced. Would much rather use that $250 to buy a bottle

---

Yea that is crazy talk unless it's some kind of private tour deal. Even then that's a lot!

Yeah this is why we've started going to Sonoma. There's a few places in Napa that we still will go back to for their awesome wines and reasonable tasting prices (Paloma, BV, Buehler, Benessere) but we've found we like Sonoma wines just as much and there's a lot more fun variety of good wines (not just a Cab/Sauv Blanc/Chard like everything is in Napa). For example the great Italian varietals you can try at places like DaVero or Spanish stuff at Marimar.

We were gifted a tasting at Quintessa when we got engaged and were shocked at how they didn't even try to push their club. "If you don't sign up, there's 5 people in line who will take your place" was the attitude. The wine was decent but couldn't even buy a bottle or two, had to get 3 of each (and that minimum included their white wine, which was also quite good. You couldn't mix and match). Really turned us off.
Meanwhile the manager of the Krupp Bros tasting room in downtown Napa will comp your tasting if you buy a couple bottles and he gives quite generous pours in their flight. I can see why the traditional model is going by the wayside out that way. They've priced themselves out of most of the population's budget.

Reach out to Thompson31Fifty in Russian River Valley. They're Aggies and take great care of any Ags that come their way. Make great Chard and Pinot. Also, the pairing at the Mayo Family Reserve Room was spectacular when we went. Much more of a lunch sized meal than the standard light bites pairings that most wineries out that way do, and the wines were great!
Lastly, one of our new favorites is Sonocaia. Very small family operation but made us feel like we were discovering how Napa was back in the 70s/80s.

We were Benessere members for a couple of years. I really liked their Black Glass zin at the time. Next time I'm out that way I plan to stop in to pick one up.

Chipotlemonger said:

---

Serious solution, go to Sonoma instead. The issues you describe are few and far between in Sonoma county. Plenty of more affordable tasting options, even nice seated ones that aren't belly up to the bar style.

---

Yeah, I'm aware. My comment was more answering why Napa is seeing issues. There are more reasonable options in Napa too.

Yea I figure most of us regular posters are aware of the differences, but I'm guessing we have some less frequent posters and lurkers who may not know. So many people equate premier American wine with only Napa, or they only know about Napa. Just want people to know that there are less expensive wine regions to visit domestically that deliver great value from both a wine standpoint and a general tourism standpoint.

Heard some brewers talking once on a podcast about Russian River beers, specifically their barrel program stuff, and they mentioned proximity to Napa as being an aiding factor for RRBC in those beers. Just had to shake my head… they are in the heart of Sonoma and I warrant get all of their barrels from their own county. A lot of the general public thinks Napa produces way more wine than it does and does not even know about the other wine regions domestically.

Okay I'll get off my soapbox.

Inglenook in Napa has a bistro tasting that allows by-the-glass or bottle sales. No set fee; you pay for what you ordered.

That was one of our favorite stops during a recent visit. The men split a bottle of Rubicon and the women had white wine and we sat outside enjoying the beautiful weather and scenery.

Quote:

---

So many people equate premier American wine with only Napa

---

And by extension only CA or the west coast.

Lots of good American wine. Had a Lost Mountain from RdV in Virginia last week. Excellent wine. Of course that winery was purchased by the same owners of Chateau Montrose, so that should indicate something.

I'm very aware of all the different quality wine regions, and I'm not necessarily bothered by what Napa has evolved to, just sharing my real time observations. I am not really a fan of Sonoma pinots or whites as I much prefer Oregon for those.

This Napa trip is more of an R&R vacation with the wife and my instructions to our trip planner were to find me small spots with great tasting experiences and people where we would want to spend a couple hours, who make wines in a more old world style, and offer wines beyond just napa cabs.

I agree with your preference for Oregon over Sonoma for Pinot and Chard generally. The two exceptions for me would be wines from Occidental or Fort Ross - Seaview, but the prices on those wines has gotten ridiculous lately.

It still amazes me how many Texans overlook how great of a wine scene we have going on here in Texas. Majority of my neighbors in our neighborhood wine club either don't realize Texas makes wine or have preconceived notions that our wine is swill. I've tried to broaden their horizons by bringing some good stuff and for the most part they're really impressed once they get past their preconceptions.

And you don't have to go 4 hours from DFW to the Hill Country to find good stuff either. There's a dozen or so great wineries within an hour drive of the metroplex. I just wish our stuff were getting more recognition - it bothers me how many local restaurants proclaim to be 'farm to table' and 'eat local' but then have the same swill wine list from the distributor with the same 10 wines.

Side note - still need to come see you at Inwood! We were members up here for a few years but the times we went to the Fbg location there was someone else working those days.

Always let me know and I'll be there. Quite a few TAgers over the years. AgInSingapore just last week!

Lots of new stuff at Inwood. The sorting stack including optical will be used for it's 3rd vintage this year.

The Bordalais are a few vintages into a new paradigm using enzymes in wine chemistry and precise knowledge of ripening to create what could be considered a third paradigm of Cabernet/BDX wines. Inwood is striving to emulate that.

Texas wines for me are hit and miss with a lot more miss than hit. Cecil is rightfully proud of Inwood, but for me there is a pretty steep drop from there. Calais makes some good stuff, but their sister property French Connection misses the mark.

QPR also suffers due to the logistics of production. Growing in the High Plains and vinting in F'burg is the equivalent of burgundy growers shipping their grapes to Brussels to have them made into wine.

Another issue w/ the distance is the vintner overseeing his own grape crop. Dan is out there many times per growing season. I fear this isn't the norm.

Yeah - I saw Dan posted some classifieds selling a crusher and press - y'all upgrade? Any chance he has some tanks for sale?

Don't disagree with the QPR being less competitive. But Texas growers and winemakers also aren't being subsidized like the French are, and most don't own estates that have been passed down for generations that no longer have a mortgage.
There's just as many bad producers out there as good ones, but I do have to say I think the dropoff from the top tier has gotten much less steep in the last 5-10 years. I can name a half-dozen producers off the top of my head that I would put up against California and France. Just have to be willing to not only look at the standard varietals but also some others like Rhone and Italian ones.

SupermachJM said:

---

Yeah - I saw Dan posted some classifieds selling a crusher and press - y'all upgrade? Any chance he has some tanks for sale?

---

Very significant upgrade, the Sorting stack is now as advanced as any available on the market.

Love me some Merry Edwards Sauv! Really been wanting to try the new blue label one

SupermachJM said:

---

Love me some Merry Edwards Sauv! Really been wanting to try the new blue label one

---

Merry Edwards has been a go to.