JDCAG (NOT Colin) said:

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I'd be more comfortable with opening things up if it wasn't obvious that 90%+ of the "open everything back up" crowd didn't also think this was all an overblown hoax/fear mongering.

You can have a rational conversation with somebody who is truly wanting to weigh the pros/cons of each situation and acknowledges both sides have danger associated (and there are some folks like that on here). You can have very strong arguments for opening back up while still understanding the associated risks.

I can't begin to have a conversation with somebody who believes there is legitimately no risk here or that it is all fear mongering - that person is clearly not living in the real world, but instead is buying into the myth of invincibility (at best) or just doesn't care about folks dying that aren't them. It's easier to let them just bash actual experts while parroting Rush Limbaugh.

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The_Fox said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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The_Fox said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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The_Fox said:

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tysker said:

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Infection_Ag11 said:

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Joe Exotic said:

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I think the cold hard reality is that this disease is relatively harmless for healthy people under 65.

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For non-obese, non-hypertensive, non-diabetic, etc. people <65, which is a minority of adults >30 in America.

And even then, a small percentage of truly healthy young people do get very sick or die. Additionally, death is the only negative long term sequelae of this. Nobody is talking about the good number of patients who recover but have significant residual kidney, lung or cardiac damage.

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I posted this elsewhere but hypertension is possibly over-diagnosed:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6030030/. And obesity is a BMI of 30 or greater. There is a large difference in health outcomes from having a BMI of 30 versus BMI of 35. A 5'10" guys that weighs 210 is "obese."


Are we country of sick, unhealthy people or over-diagnosed people?

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A Doc said on one of the other threads that a BMI of 35+ was the danger area. Good god, if you have a BMI of over 35, you are at risk for all kinds of things. Stop eating and start jogging.

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Most people think a BMI of 35+ is someone from that 600 pound life show.

A 5'10" male who weighs 235 has a BMI around 35. We all know numerous people with BMIs that high or much higher. It's not something unusual at all.

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While you are correct that I know people like that, that is still absurdly overweight and everyone I know like that has caused their own situation.

My current BMI is around 27.5 and I feel like a whale. Until age 40, it was never above 22. I cannot fathom letting yourself get to a 35+ BMI without taking matters into your own hands and reversing that trend.

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It's definitely their own doing in most cases, but we don't get to just say "well **** those people they did it to themselves".

Most chronic health conditions are the result of a lifetime of poor choices, and even many cancers are as well.

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I have never suggested that we deny them medical care for their idiocy. However, they definitely should pay a premium for that BS. I am suggesting that we cannot make everyone else commit economic suicide out of some shared obligation for those, many of which created their own jeopardy.

That is an individual moral choice. You are a Doctor. I do not want you making that choice outside of a triage setting. You should be focused on saving every single life.

Just as the economists should pulling just as hard as you but to save the economy. Then I want someone else not in either arena to make a cold, hard, rational cost benefit analysis and get us moving in that direction.

This response simply cannot be solely driven by the medical community.

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I agree with all of this, at least in general principle. I'm glad I don't have to be the one making the "X number of lives are worth Y dollars" decision.

My caveat would be I think a lot of non-medical people look only at mortality rates and demographics and think decisions should be made only on that data. There's something to be said for acknowledging all the complications (health wise and economic) of the profound disease burden caused by lesser societal restrictions. That just needs to be factored in.

culdeus said:

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bay fan said:

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Joe Exotic said:

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I think the cold hard reality is that this disease is relatively harmless for healthy people under 65.

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I'll be sure to tell that to my friend whose healthy, marathon running, 29 year old nurse daughter died of it. I am sure she will feel better knowing it's just bad luck.

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Not to put too fine a point on it, but chronic cardio is a real thing. People drop dead of heart attacks as marathon runners because they abuse their circulatory system so much, plus chronic cardio does reduce your immunity.

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Whatever you guys want to say however the facts are she did not have any co morbidity unless being too fit is now considered one. Was was a 29 year old nurse and she died of Covid 19. She did not die of a heart attack, yes she could have but she did not.

It's not that I'm likely to ever know another young person to die of it but every time people insist only old people do or it's not dangerous, disregarding those that break the norm it is tone deaf to the very real loss people are suffering when losing people they care about. Also, many people love their parents and grand parents or over weight, asthmatic or otherwise diseased people in their lives and to say it's okay to die if old/unhealthy is selfish and unfeeling. ( I am aware you did not say that but it's certainly implied often on here)

The point is, many of us care about people in diminishing health over the age of 65 and to speak as if their lives don't matter is callous at best.

SirLurksALot said:

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bay fan said:

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culdeus said:

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bay fan said:

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Joe Exotic said:

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I think the cold hard reality is that this disease is relatively harmless for healthy people under 65.

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I'll be sure to tell that to my friend whose healthy, marathon running, 29 year old nurse daughter died of it. I am sure she will feel better knowing it's just bad luck.

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Not to put too fine a point on it, but chronic cardio is a real thing. People drop dead of heart attacks as marathon runners because they abuse their circulatory system so much, plus chronic cardio does reduce your immunity.

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Whatever you guys want to say however the facts are she did not have any co morbidity unless being too fit is now considered one. Was was a 29 year old nurse and she died of Covid 19. She did not die of a heart attack, yes she could have but she did not.

It's not that I'm likely to ever know another young person to die of it but every time people insist only old people do or it's not dangerous, disregarding those that break the norm it is tone deaf to the very real loss people are suffering when losing people they care about. Also, many people love their parents and grand parents or over weight, asthmatic or otherwise diseased people in their lives and to say it's okay to die if old/unhealthy is selfish and unfeeling. ( I am aware you did not say that but it's certainly implied often on here)

The point is, many of us care about people in diminishing health over the age of 65 and to speak as if their lives don't matter is callous at best.

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Their lives matter to those that know them and don't matter to those that don't. That is the way we treat the other 8,000 deaths that occur in this country everyday and should be how we treat coronavirus deaths as well.

That is unfortunate for your friend, but his daughter's case was an anomaly and shouldn't be used to show that virus is more dangerous than it actually is.

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I didn't know her and her life mattered to me. And what a ****ty ass response. I get where you're going but my god, please evaluate your delivery because it's very insensitive and heartless.

Quote:

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Their lives matter to those that know them and don't matter to those that don't.

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Sorry, I have a hard time with this. As a human race, we've gone nowhere if we can't conceive of the worth of a person's life whether or not we know them.

I have a neighbor who contracted the virus pretty early, over a month ago. He is in his mid-50s and he is extremely healthy. Lifts weights and does aerobic exercise a lot. No smoking, drinks occasionally, only socially. Church every Sunday. He was hospitalized for two weeks, much of it in the ICU and some of that on a ventilator. He has been home a few weeks already, but, according to his wife, he has NOT recovered mentally (physically, either, but that is to be expected). He has word loss and forgets things very easily. My suspicion is that he suffered some micro embolic cerebrovascular events before the hypercoagulability of the disease process was well known. He works out of his home, and had no international travel. Nobody in his family is in health care. He had absolutely no idea as to where he contracted the virus, best guess is that one of his college age kids got it, was asymptomatic and came home and gave it to him.

Definitely, the virus affects the old, the frail, the obese, the hypertensive, the smoker, the immunocompromised, the diabetic, and the patient with cardiovascular disease more often than the young and healthy. But then it strikes someone you would never expect in a very severe way. My neighbor won't count as a mortality, so by numbers he will go down as "recovered". But, as Infection Ag and Marcus Aurelius and Riley 290 and others have said, the future of some of these "recovered" patients is really unclear at this point.

I don't envy any politician trying to make policy to navigate this pandemic right now. Every decision, in a way, pits peoples' current physical, emotional, and financial wellbeing against an unknown future. Whenever I have a discussion with someone about this virus, I remind them that this is the NOVEL Coronavirus. No person in history was ever exposed to it before November or December of last year.

SirLurksALot said:

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SkiMo said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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bay fan said:

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culdeus said:

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bay fan said:

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Joe Exotic said:

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I think the cold hard reality is that this disease is relatively harmless for healthy people under 65.

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I'll be sure to tell that to my friend whose healthy, marathon running, 29 year old nurse daughter died of it. I am sure she will feel better knowing it's just bad luck.

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Not to put too fine a point on it, but chronic cardio is a real thing. People drop dead of heart attacks as marathon runners because they abuse their circulatory system so much, plus chronic cardio does reduce your immunity.

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Whatever you guys want to say however the facts are she did not have any co morbidity unless being too fit is now considered one. Was was a 29 year old nurse and she died of Covid 19. She did not die of a heart attack, yes she could have but she did not.

It's not that I'm likely to ever know another young person to die of it but every time people insist only old people do or it's not dangerous, disregarding those that break the norm it is tone deaf to the very real loss people are suffering when losing people they care about. Also, many people love their parents and grand parents or over weight, asthmatic or otherwise diseased people in their lives and to say it's okay to die if old/unhealthy is selfish and unfeeling. ( I am aware you did not say that but it's certainly implied often on here)

The point is, many of us care about people in diminishing health over the age of 65 and to speak as if their lives don't matter is callous at best.

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Their lives matter to those that know them and don't matter to those that don't. That is the way we treat the other 8,000 deaths that occur in this country everyday and should be how we treat coronavirus deaths as well.

That is unfortunate for your friend, but his daughter's case was an anomaly and shouldn't be used to show that virus is more dangerous than it actually is.

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I didn't know her and her life mattered to me. And what a ****ty ass response. I get where you're going but my god, please evaluate your delivery because it's very insensitive and heartless.

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Really? Are you going to her funeral? Doing anything for the family? How did it matter other than that you said it mattered on an internet message board? It's easy to act emotional, but the reality is that it didn't affect you just like the other 8,000 deaths that happened that day likely didn't either.

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It matters because she was a human that many people loved. Really not that hard to understand. And your questions about going to her funeral are beyond ignorant. But it seems you spend the great majority of your time on this website over in the forum which shall not be named so it makes perfect sense why you wouldn't understand basic human decency. No, we can't base decisions on outliers, but there are much nicer ways to say that than the way you did.

SkiMo said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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SkiMo said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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bay fan said:

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culdeus said:

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bay fan said:

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Joe Exotic said:

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I think the cold hard reality is that this disease is relatively harmless for healthy people under 65.

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I'll be sure to tell that to my friend whose healthy, marathon running, 29 year old nurse daughter died of it. I am sure she will feel better knowing it's just bad luck.

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Not to put too fine a point on it, but chronic cardio is a real thing. People drop dead of heart attacks as marathon runners because they abuse their circulatory system so much, plus chronic cardio does reduce your immunity.

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Whatever you guys want to say however the facts are she did not have any co morbidity unless being too fit is now considered one. Was was a 29 year old nurse and she died of Covid 19. She did not die of a heart attack, yes she could have but she did not.

It's not that I'm likely to ever know another young person to die of it but every time people insist only old people do or it's not dangerous, disregarding those that break the norm it is tone deaf to the very real loss people are suffering when losing people they care about. Also, many people love their parents and grand parents or over weight, asthmatic or otherwise diseased people in their lives and to say it's okay to die if old/unhealthy is selfish and unfeeling. ( I am aware you did not say that but it's certainly implied often on here)

The point is, many of us care about people in diminishing health over the age of 65 and to speak as if their lives don't matter is callous at best.

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Their lives matter to those that know them and don't matter to those that don't. That is the way we treat the other 8,000 deaths that occur in this country everyday and should be how we treat coronavirus deaths as well.

That is unfortunate for your friend, but his daughter's case was an anomaly and shouldn't be used to show that virus is more dangerous than it actually is.

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I didn't know her and her life mattered to me. And what a ****ty ass response. I get where you're going but my god, please evaluate your delivery because it's very insensitive and heartless.

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Really? Are you going to her funeral? Doing anything for the family? How did it matter other than that you said it mattered on an internet message board? It's easy to act emotional, but the reality is that it didn't affect you just like the other 8,000 deaths that happened that day likely didn't either.

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It matters because she was a human that many people loved. Really not that hard to understand. And your questions about going to her funeral are beyond ignorant. But it seems you spend the great majority of your time on this website over in the forum which shall not be named so it makes perfect sense why you wouldn't understand basic human decency. No, we can't base decisions on outliers, but there are much nicer ways to say that than the way you did.

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Being overly emotional doesn't equal basic human decency.

It doesn't "sound" callous--it is callous. Sorry, my faith teaches me the opposite of what you speak. It teaches me to value others more than I value myself.

SirLurksALot said:

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bay fan said:

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culdeus said:

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bay fan said:

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Joe Exotic said:

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I think the cold hard reality is that this disease is relatively harmless for healthy people under 65.

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I'll be sure to tell that to my friend whose healthy, marathon running, 29 year old nurse daughter died of it. I am sure she will feel better knowing it's just bad luck.

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Not to put too fine a point on it, but chronic cardio is a real thing. People drop dead of heart attacks as marathon runners because they abuse their circulatory system so much, plus chronic cardio does reduce your immunity.

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Whatever you guys want to say however the facts are she did not have any co morbidity unless being too fit is now considered one. Was was a 29 year old nurse and she died of Covid 19. She did not die of a heart attack, yes she could have but she did not.

It's not that I'm likely to ever know another young person to die of it but every time people insist only old people do or it's not dangerous, disregarding those that break the norm it is tone deaf to the very real loss people are suffering when losing people they care about. Also, many people love their parents and grand parents or over weight, asthmatic or otherwise diseased people in their lives and to say it's okay to die if old/unhealthy is selfish and unfeeling. ( I am aware you did not say that but it's certainly implied often on here)

The point is, many of us care about people in diminishing health over the age of 65 and to speak as if their lives don't matter is callous at best.

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Their lives matter to those that know them and don't matter to those that don't. That is the way we treat the other 8,000 deaths that occur in this country everyday and should be how we treat coronavirus deaths as well.

That is unfortunate for your friend, but his daughter's case was an anomaly and shouldn't be used to show that virus is more dangerous than it actually is.

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Did you miss the part that she was a nurse, likely infected while serving the public? Everyone better care about that, not just those that knew her.

A great degree of this has been aimed at sparing our health care workers who are inadequately protected and working under dangerous conditions as we learn about this novel virus.

As we become better equipped to protect doctors, nurses and first responders with very basic things like PPE and testing that provides results in a timely fashion rather then 10 days it was taking a month ago things will begin to normalize.

Some might just apologize for coming off like an ass in this situation.

SirLurksALot said:

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BeowulfShaeffer said:

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It doesn't "sound" callous--it is callous. Sorry, my faith teaches me the opposite of what you speak. It teaches me to value others more than I value myself.

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That's not what I said. I value those that I know more than myself. How can I value someone I didn't even know existed until after they had died?

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You should just stop while already behind and exposed.

SirLurksALot said:

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SkiMo said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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bay fan said:

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culdeus said:

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bay fan said:

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Joe Exotic said:

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I think the cold hard reality is that this disease is relatively harmless for healthy people under 65.

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I'll be sure to tell that to my friend whose healthy, marathon running, 29 year old nurse daughter died of it. I am sure she will feel better knowing it's just bad luck.

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Not to put too fine a point on it, but chronic cardio is a real thing. People drop dead of heart attacks as marathon runners because they abuse their circulatory system so much, plus chronic cardio does reduce your immunity.

---

Whatever you guys want to say however the facts are she did not have any co morbidity unless being too fit is now considered one. Was was a 29 year old nurse and she died of Covid 19. She did not die of a heart attack, yes she could have but she did not.

It's not that I'm likely to ever know another young person to die of it but every time people insist only old people do or it's not dangerous, disregarding those that break the norm it is tone deaf to the very real loss people are suffering when losing people they care about. Also, many people love their parents and grand parents or over weight, asthmatic or otherwise diseased people in their lives and to say it's okay to die if old/unhealthy is selfish and unfeeling. ( I am aware you did not say that but it's certainly implied often on here)

The point is, many of us care about people in diminishing health over the age of 65 and to speak as if their lives don't matter is callous at best.

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Their lives matter to those that know them and don't matter to those that don't. That is the way we treat the other 8,000 deaths that occur in this country everyday and should be how we treat coronavirus deaths as well.

That is unfortunate for your friend, but his daughter's case was an anomaly and shouldn't be used to show that virus is more dangerous than it actually is.

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I didn't know her and her life mattered to me. And what a ****ty ass response. I get where you're going but my god, please evaluate your delivery because it's very insensitive and heartless.

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Really? Are you going to her funeral? Doing anything for the family? How did it matter other than that you said it mattered on an internet message board? It's easy to act emotional, but the reality is that it didn't affect you just like the other 8,000 deaths that happened that day likely didn't either.

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Wow. What a sh**** response. Like you know how he felt. Don't project your indifference on other people.

SirLurksALot said:

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BeowulfShaeffer said:

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It doesn't "sound" callous--it is callous. Sorry, my faith teaches me the opposite of what you speak. It teaches me to value others more than I value myself.

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That's not what I said. I value those that I know more than myself. How can I value someone I didn't even know existed until after they had died?

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You do know they exist. You don't know their name, their face, their job, you might not know anything about them, but you know death will happen today, tomorrow, next week, and forever.

Out of all places, this board has been littered with statistics about death. No one can plead ignorance here about death.

A philosopher you aren't.

It's quite easy to value someone you don't know that has already died. I value Albert Einstein; I value John of the Cross; I value Albert Schweizer; I value Yogi Berra. I know none of them personally. Three of them died before I was born, but I'm still able to value them.

In this particular case we have a nurse that I didn't know and didn't learn about until after she died. However, I still value her contribution to us as humans--dying in the fight to save others, and I mourn her loss. I have empathy for her family. I'm able to have empathy for the families of those who are mourning loved ones lost to this disease outbreak. I can easily value them all without having known them.

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I'm not trying to devalue how much they meant to those that knew them by assigning fake emotions to their deaths.

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There are several different personality types, with three basics of head, heart, or body and then they branch from there. None is any "better" than any other; they just exist. People are just built differently.

Dude, I'm also one of the "head" types--as I suspect you are from reading your posts. But I'm not going to discount other's responses by calling them "fake emotions". Emotions you may not share, you may not conceive of, but nonetheless are very real to those who have them. You are devaluing those whom you don't know simply by making your statement, above, whether or not you were "trying to". It's that sort of thing that others object to.

If you don't want people to push back against what you write, I'd suggest you re-read what you write before you press the "Post" button, and consider how it may be received by someone who is wired differently from you. Or, just go ahead and post with the understanding that not everyone thinks the way you do, and consider that your opinion is neither more nor less valuable than any other's, and don't be surprised when someone raises an objection.

I'm done. I'll not engage further.

SirLurksALot said:

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If you read the thread you'll see where I was talking about the average person. Of course those with an outsized impact on society will have greater value to those that didn't know them personally.

Good for you. It's easy to say that on a message board. I hope that you actually live your life that way. You must spend a significant portion of your life morning the 8,000 people that die everyday. I'm just being honest. I didn't know them, their deaths have affected my life in no way. I'm not trying to devalue how much they meant to those that knew them by assigning fake emotions to their deaths.

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Step away from the keyboard, stick to your username, and go back to just lurking