Sapper Redux said:

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Bob Lee said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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If the man was born to Dearborn, then he's literally native to Dearborn.

There are better ways to make your point than to double down on being wrong.

wouldn't it be more effective for your argument to be "Even despite being born in the United States, the Islamic influence is still so corrupting that he acts like a foreigner?"

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I haven't claimed he's not a citizen or that he wasn't born here. As a matter of fact, he was. What have I said that's making you think that? I'm saying he's an outsider. He's not an American in any meaningful sense of the word. Citizenship as it stands doesn't reveal anything to me besides your legal status. This is what's going on in Dearborn. You have an entire community of people governing themselves who don't have any allegiance to the United States, and they don't see themselves as American primarily. So it's fine to say he's native to Dearborn as long as we mean the same thing. That he's native to Dearborn is only a comment on where he was born in the world geographically.

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Were the Irish and German immigrants who served in ethnic regiments during the Civil War Americans to you? Just curious.

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Bob Lee said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Bob Lee said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Bob Lee said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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I mean.. I don't make the rules, but that is.. how citizenship works...and if he was born in the US, he's literally not foreign. He was born in Dearborn ..so he's not even foreign to that specific location...

He very literally isn't foreign, he is native. His parents were immigrants. You can say he acts foreign.

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I don't make the rules either. That's what's at issue though right? Should foreigners be citizens? Should foreigners from countries and cultures that don't lend themselves to integration into our culture be allowed to be citizens? Being American ought to mean something more than you were born here.

What do you think the guy would say if you asked him if he's Lebanese? If you can be Lebanese and American, what does it mean to be either?

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So you're saying Marco Rubio and Ted cruz are both foreigners as well?

Converse to your point, what makes you think just because your family has been in the US for generations that you're more American than someone who is first generation? Is your definition of being American based on time, behavior, or what? Seems what you're saying is just a bit inconsistent.

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I'm saying true assimilation takes generations under the best of circumstances and is impossible under the worst of circumstances. I don't think antithetical values systems can ever assimilate.

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I still don't follow.

Are you saying that all it takes to be American is to just meld into one homogeneous set of "American values" that likely changes over time?

Do you think that the hundreds of thousands of first and second generation immigrants that have served in the military over the last 100+ years defending this country aren't as American as the random person whose family came on the Mayflower? What about the firefighters and cops from immigrant families that serve their communities versus the individuals that have been here for generations but live off welfare?

To that point I am assuming you have served in the military? Or perhaps you've done some public service for the country? Would be curious to know what it is.

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Kind of? We need to have something in common other than a social security number or something like it. Do you not think so?

Let's say you grow up in the borders of the U.S. in a community of people that's indistinguishable from a community in Afghanistan. Your parents are from Afghanistan. You belong to an Afghan culture and that's all that informs your worldview. Can you be an American? And if yes, then I guess I would just say okay, but him and me have nothing in common. We can't really belong to the same polity. So it just renders the term American meaningless. Can I be Japanese? If not, why not?

I think our heritage is stickier than we like to give it credit for. What do you think of someone who is a citizen and talks about going back to "their" country to visit their family?

I was an RP in the Navy from 04 to 09. I did 1 tour in Iraq in 06 and a Westpac in 08.

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Zobel said:

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lol it is a yes or no, you are just too cowardly to answer.

At any rate this is just an ecological fallacy.

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Sapper Redux said:

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Zobel said:

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lol it is a yes or no, you are just too cowardly to answer.

At any rate this is just an ecological fallacy.

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It's not a yes or a no. One can recognize the logical and even ethical desire for an ethno-nation while also recognizing that they are, in practice, horrible for everyone involved and affected by them.

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Bob Lee said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Bob Lee said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Bob Lee said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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I mean.. I don't make the rules, but that is.. how citizenship works...and if he was born in the US, he's literally not foreign. He was born in Dearborn ..so he's not even foreign to that specific location...

He very literally isn't foreign, he is native. His parents were immigrants. You can say he acts foreign.

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I don't make the rules either. That's what's at issue though right? Should foreigners be citizens? Should foreigners from countries and cultures that don't lend themselves to integration into our culture be allowed to be citizens? Being American ought to mean something more than you were born here.

What do you think the guy would say if you asked him if he's Lebanese? If you can be Lebanese and American, what does it mean to be either?

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So you're saying Marco Rubio and Ted cruz are both foreigners as well?

Converse to your point, what makes you think just because your family has been in the US for generations that you're more American than someone who is first generation? Is your definition of being American based on time, behavior, or what? Seems what you're saying is just a bit inconsistent.

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I'm saying true assimilation takes generations under the best of circumstances and is impossible under the worst of circumstances. I don't think antithetical values systems can ever assimilate.

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I still don't follow.

Are you saying that all it takes to be American is to just meld into one homogeneous set of "American values" that likely changes over time?

Do you think that the hundreds of thousands of first and second generation immigrants that have served in the military over the last 100+ years defending this country aren't as American as the random person whose family came on the Mayflower? What about the firefighters and cops from immigrant families that serve their communities versus the individuals that have been here for generations but live off welfare?

To that point I am assuming you have served in the military? Or perhaps you've done some public service for the country? Would be curious to know what it is.

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Kind of? We need to have something in common other than a social security number or something like it. Do you not think so?

Let's say you grow up in the borders of the U.S. in a community of people that's indistinguishable from a community in Afghanistan. Your parents are from Afghanistan. You belong to an Afghan culture and that's all that informs your worldview. Can you be an American? And if yes, then I guess I would just say okay, but him and me have nothing in common. We can't really belong to the same polity. So it just renders the term American meaningless. Can I be Japanese? If not, why not?

I think our heritage is stickier than we like to give it credit for. What do you think of someone who is a citizen and talks about going back to "their" country to visit their family?

I was an RP in the Navy from 04 to 09. I did 1 tour in Iraq in 06 and a Westpac in 08.

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Maximus of Tejas said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Zobel said:

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lol it is a yes or no, you are just too cowardly to answer.

At any rate this is just an ecological fallacy.

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It's not a yes or a no. One can recognize the logical and even ethical desire for an ethno-nation while also recognizing that they are, in practice, horrible for everyone involved and affected by them.

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You won't like this answer but the only way for this forced multiculturalism to work is if America becomes overwhelmingly Orthodox. Nothing else will bind these groups together correctly.

On the flip side, the antichrist will actually do something like that except it will be a trap. Mr. Nice Guy will be come around at some point and it will feel like a miracle.

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Zobel said:

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So.. it's evil and wrong? I mean horrible for everyone seems like a pretty easy thing to call balls and strikes wise.

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Bob Lee said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Bob Lee said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Bob Lee said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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I mean.. I don't make the rules, but that is.. how citizenship works...and if he was born in the US, he's literally not foreign. He was born in Dearborn ..so he's not even foreign to that specific location...

He very literally isn't foreign, he is native. His parents were immigrants. You can say he acts foreign.

---

I don't make the rules either. That's what's at issue though right? Should foreigners be citizens? Should foreigners from countries and cultures that don't lend themselves to integration into our culture be allowed to be citizens? Being American ought to mean something more than you were born here.

What do you think the guy would say if you asked him if he's Lebanese? If you can be Lebanese and American, what does it mean to be either?

---

So you're saying Marco Rubio and Ted cruz are both foreigners as well?

Converse to your point, what makes you think just because your family has been in the US for generations that you're more American than someone who is first generation? Is your definition of being American based on time, behavior, or what? Seems what you're saying is just a bit inconsistent.

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I'm saying true assimilation takes generations under the best of circumstances and is impossible under the worst of circumstances. I don't think antithetical values systems can ever assimilate.

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I still don't follow.

Are you saying that all it takes to be American is to just meld into one homogeneous set of "American values" that likely changes over time?

Do you think that the hundreds of thousands of first and second generation immigrants that have served in the military over the last 100+ years defending this country aren't as American as the random person whose family came on the Mayflower? What about the firefighters and cops from immigrant families that serve their communities versus the individuals that have been here for generations but live off welfare?

To that point I am assuming you have served in the military? Or perhaps you've done some public service for the country? Would be curious to know what it is.

---

Kind of? We need to have something in common other than a social security number or something like it. Do you not think so?

Let's say you grow up in the borders of the U.S. in a community of people that's indistinguishable from a community in Afghanistan. Your parents are from Afghanistan. You belong to an Afghan culture and that's all that informs your worldview. Can you be an American? And if yes, then I guess I would just say okay, but him and me have nothing in common. We can't really belong to the same polity. So it just renders the term American meaningless. Can I be Japanese? If not, why not?

I think our heritage is stickier than we like to give it credit for. What do you think of someone who is a citizen and talks about going back to "their" country to visit their family?

I was an RP in the Navy from 04 to 09. I did 1 tour in Iraq in 06 and a Westpac in 08.

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It just doesn't make sense to me.

Like what you're basically saying is we should be one homogenous culture from North to South, East to West. Mexicans that come here should stop making Mexican food and stop speaking Spanish. St Patrick's day shouldn't be a thing, or Cinco De Mayo. The Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, etc should stop selling their ethnic cuisines and assimilate. No one should worry about what race each other are, and there should be plenty of interracial marriages so that all the cultures just blend together and people forget their heritage and adopt "American"?

Interestingly, one of our strengths is that we have a huge population that speaks just about every language in existance. The military needs Chinese or Russian interpreters, we have a huge number to pull from. The CIA is trying to listen in on something they're picking up in the horn of Africa, they can recruit someone for that easily. While other countries need to train someone, who likely won't have a native accent.

But further, who determines what the national identity or culture is? What happens if out of the blue a bunch of Americans start converting to Islam. Are immigrants that move to that area supposed to assimilate into the region that has more and more Muslims that are multigenerational American?

I'm sure Americans from the 40's would have a different view of what Americans today should be like. Do we base the "standard" for assimilation on today? 20 years ago? 100 years ago? Or is there a constant moving target and who decides what that target is?

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Maximus of Tejas said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Maximus of Tejas said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Zobel said:

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lol it is a yes or no, you are just too cowardly to answer.

At any rate this is just an ecological fallacy.

---

It's not a yes or a no. One can recognize the logical and even ethical desire for an ethno-nation while also recognizing that they are, in practice, horrible for everyone involved and affected by them.

---

You won't like this answer but the only way for this forced multiculturalism to work is if America becomes overwhelmingly Orthodox. Nothing else will bind these groups together correctly.

On the flip side, the antichrist will actually do something like that except it will be a trap. Mr. Nice Guy will be come around at some point and it will feel like a miracle.

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America has been multicultural since colonization began. Orthodoxy not required.

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That's a dishonest take. The far majority, close to 90%, of America was white (commonly Christian) up until the 1950s with a steady decline to under 60% today. This was accomplished in the same fashion as the UK.

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Sapper Redux said:

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Maximus of Tejas said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Maximus of Tejas said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Zobel said:

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lol it is a yes or no, you are just too cowardly to answer.

At any rate this is just an ecological fallacy.

---

It's not a yes or a no. One can recognize the logical and even ethical desire for an ethno-nation while also recognizing that they are, in practice, horrible for everyone involved and affected by them.

---

You won't like this answer but the only way for this forced multiculturalism to work is if America becomes overwhelmingly Orthodox. Nothing else will bind these groups together correctly.

On the flip side, the antichrist will actually do something like that except it will be a trap. Mr. Nice Guy will be come around at some point and it will feel like a miracle.

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America has been multicultural since colonization began. Orthodoxy not required.

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That's a dishonest take. The far majority, close to 90%, of America was white (commonly Christian) up until the 1950s with a steady decline to under 60% today. This was accomplished in the same fashion as the UK.

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Wanna guess how consistent the definition of "white" has been through history? Also, greater than 50% of the population in states like South Carolina and Mississippi was not white for most of its history and Texas has had a much smaller Anglo-American population through the vast majority of its history.

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Sapper Redux said:

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No, you've made your antisemitism quite clear, thanks.

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Maximus of Tejas said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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No, you've made your antisemitism quite clear, thanks.

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Oh I'm not sure if you know this but you can't play that card anymore with the ongoing genocide of children. That should be the obvious indicator but here we are with these so called "nice" people. However, second place would the Israeli infighting on the right to ra** prisoners.

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one MEEN Ag said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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No, you've made your antisemitism quite clear, thanks.

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Then answer Zobels question. You're avoiding it for good reason. I provided the reason. You're avoiding my conjectures as well.

And I'm not an antisemite. Just because I've got you dead to rights on this doesn't mean you've got to start squealing with accusations of antisemitism. I don't hate Jews. But I don't celebrate rabbinic judiasm with open arms. And for that, I am an antisemite in your eyes.

If you can look critically at white Europe and American history, why can't I look critically at white Jewish European and American history?

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one MEEN Ag said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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No, you've made your antisemitism quite clear, thanks.

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Then answer Zobels question. You're avoiding it for good reason. I provided the reason. You're avoiding my conjectures as well.

And I'm not an antisemite. Just because I've got you dead to rights on this doesn't mean you've got to start squealing with accusations of antisemitism. I don't hate Jews. But I don't celebrate rabbinic judiasm with open arms. And for that, I am an antisemite in your eyes.

If you can look critically at white Europe and American history, why can't I look critically at white Jewish European and American history?

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I haven't avoided it. I explained why it isn't a yes or no question. And yes, you've engaged in clear antisemitic tropes in addition to insulting me. So **** off.

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This discussion is about islam being completely at odds with american culture historically. But of course, you're here so here we are discussing jews and the holocaust.

You say that european nations organization governments around the idea of being european people groups is bad. We make you explain yourself.

You go radio silent.

Then when prompted its antisemite name calling.

What does the word anti-semite even mean to you? Again, can I critique jewish-american ethnos in any capacity like you're critiquing european american ethnos? Does anything that falls short of mildly supporting everything jewish theology, jewish culture, jewish political objectives, jewish atheist stated non-profit goals mean I am anti-semite?

At the foundation of your religion (that you don't even believe in), your teachings believe Chrisitanity is animated by demons. At the foundation of my religion I believe rabbinic judiasm is animated by demons. Is this anti-semitic to hold such an opinion? Lets use a pure theological critique to establish just how far the term anti-semetic covers. Because if I can't even hold a base tenant of christianity without it being labeled anti-semitic the rest doesn't matter anyways. The issue isn't with me then, its with Jesus.

Your athiesm is the crux here. Because you don't actually hold any theological beliefs about judiasm, its just you trying to preserve your brand of tribalism. The central beliefs don't matter to you, so that leaves you only with the trappings and social alignments to preserve.

I'm orthodox christian here. I am only mildly concerned with the ethnos discussion at hand. Because my core alignment is with Christ, not america. So I can accept an american future that accepts Christ and christian ethics as its foundation if it can't accept the historical european ethnicities and their historical christian norms any more.

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Bob Lee said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Bob Lee said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Bob Lee said:

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bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Bob Lee said:

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swimmerbabe11 said:

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I mean.. I don't make the rules, but that is.. how citizenship works...and if he was born in the US, he's literally not foreign. He was born in Dearborn ..so he's not even foreign to that specific location...

He very literally isn't foreign, he is native. His parents were immigrants. You can say he acts foreign.

---

I don't make the rules either. That's what's at issue though right? Should foreigners be citizens? Should foreigners from countries and cultures that don't lend themselves to integration into our culture be allowed to be citizens? Being American ought to mean something more than you were born here.

What do you think the guy would say if you asked him if he's Lebanese? If you can be Lebanese and American, what does it mean to be either?

---

So you're saying Marco Rubio and Ted cruz are both foreigners as well?

Converse to your point, what makes you think just because your family has been in the US for generations that you're more American than someone who is first generation? Is your definition of being American based on time, behavior, or what? Seems what you're saying is just a bit inconsistent.

---

I'm saying true assimilation takes generations under the best of circumstances and is impossible under the worst of circumstances. I don't think antithetical values systems can ever assimilate.

---

I still don't follow.

Are you saying that all it takes to be American is to just meld into one homogeneous set of "American values" that likely changes over time?

Do you think that the hundreds of thousands of first and second generation immigrants that have served in the military over the last 100+ years defending this country aren't as American as the random person whose family came on the Mayflower? What about the firefighters and cops from immigrant families that serve their communities versus the individuals that have been here for generations but live off welfare?

To that point I am assuming you have served in the military? Or perhaps you've done some public service for the country? Would be curious to know what it is.

---

Kind of? We need to have something in common other than a social security number or something like it. Do you not think so?

Let's say you grow up in the borders of the U.S. in a community of people that's indistinguishable from a community in Afghanistan. Your parents are from Afghanistan. You belong to an Afghan culture and that's all that informs your worldview. Can you be an American? And if yes, then I guess I would just say okay, but him and me have nothing in common. We can't really belong to the same polity. So it just renders the term American meaningless. Can I be Japanese? If not, why not?

I think our heritage is stickier than we like to give it credit for. What do you think of someone who is a citizen and talks about going back to "their" country to visit their family?

I was an RP in the Navy from 04 to 09. I did 1 tour in Iraq in 06 and a Westpac in 08.

---

It just doesn't make sense to me.

Like what you're basically saying is we should be one homogenous culture from North to South, East to West. Mexicans that come here should stop making Mexican food and stop speaking Spanish. St Patrick's day shouldn't be a thing, or Cinco De Mayo. The Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, etc should stop selling their ethnic cuisines and assimilate. No one should worry about what race each other are, and there should be plenty of interracial marriages so that all the cultures just blend together and people forget their heritage and adopt "American"?

Interestingly, one of our strengths is that we have a huge population that speaks just about every language in existance. The military needs Chinese or Russian interpreters, we have a huge number to pull from. The CIA is trying to listen in on something they're picking up in the horn of Africa, they can recruit someone for that easily. While other countries need to train someone, who likely won't have a native accent.

But further, who determines what the national identity or culture is? What happens if out of the blue a bunch of Americans start converting to Islam. Are immigrants that move to that area supposed to assimilate into the region that has more and more Muslims that are multigenerational American?

I'm sure Americans from the 40's would have a different view of what Americans today should be like. Do we base the "standard" for assimilation on today? 20 years ago? 100 years ago? Or is there a constant moving target and who decides what that target is?

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My parish has Hispanics. Some of them are good friends. We belong to the same community. Their children are our children's friends. They go to school together, to mass together, we meet and celebrate feast days together. We support each other. Hold each other accountable, etc. The things people in communities do. We can belong to the same community because we're culturally Catholic and so are they.

If some Baptists from down the street started attending mass they wouldn't suddenly be Catholic, and to change the way we worship by tinkering with the liturgy to accommodate their beliefs is to shatter the community. It would be something different. Not Catholic anymore. The Baptists have to give up their beliefs and adopt different beliefs, and they have to change their behavior. They have to worship the way we worship before they can belong to our parish community.

People don't commune around their differences. If we don't agree on a certain set of values then we live in the kind of country that's ruled by the wills of other men. So yeah, there have to be SOME constraints around what it means to be American for it to mean anything at all.

As for the food, don't worry. We have all the recipes now.

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