I understand it doesn't blatantly say "all types" but the alternative is to agree that they are being told to pray for, make intercession for every single individual person. I don't see that being reality.

Furthermore, the disciples were told in Matt. 28 to make disciples of "all the nations" versus every single person on earth. The focus was that the gospel was radically available for all people, not just Jewish people; both Judea and Samaria.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I understand it doesn't blatantly say "all types" but the alternative is to agree that they are being told to pray for, make intercession for every single individual person. I don't see that being reality.

Furthermore, the disciples were told in Matt. 28 to make disciples of "all the nations" versus every single person on earth. The focus was that the gospel was radically available for all people, not just Jewish people; both Judea and Samaria.

---

I thought according to your theology it was only available for the elect. And we have beaten 1 Timothy 2 to death. Care to discuss any of the other verses I listed?

And edited to add, I pray for all people of the world often. As does my church.

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I understand it doesn't blatantly say "all types" but the alternative is to agree that they are being told to pray for, make intercession for every single individual person. I don't see that being reality.

Furthermore, the disciples were told in Matt. 28 to make disciples of "all the nations" versus every single person on earth. The focus was that the gospel was radically available for all people, not just Jewish people; both Judea and Samaria.

---

I thought according to your theology it was only available for the elect. And we have beaten 1 Timothy 2 to death. Care to discuss any of the other verses I listed?

---

Correct. The idea is that the Lord has not come back down until all these peoples have been saved. He is patient to accomplish (and let us participate) the decrees in which he has set into motion.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I understand it doesn't blatantly say "all types" but the alternative is to agree that they are being told to pray for, make intercession for every single individual person. I don't see that being reality.

Furthermore, the disciples were told in Matt. 28 to make disciples of "all the nations" versus every single person on earth. The focus was that the gospel was radically available for all people, not just Jewish people; both Judea and Samaria.

---

I thought according to your theology it was only available for the elect. And we have beaten 1 Timothy 2 to death. Care to discuss any of the other verses I listed?

---

Correct. The idea is that the Lord has not come back down until all these peoples have been saved. He is patient to accomplish (and let us participate) the decrees in which he has set into motion.

---

Forgive me if I am wrong but I thought your theology states they were already saved from before the beginning of time. So they are saved but have to hear the Gospel? I am confused.

How about we discuss Titus 2 11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I understand it doesn't blatantly say "all types" but the alternative is to agree that they are being told to pray for, make intercession for every single individual person. I don't see that being reality.

Furthermore, the disciples were told in Matt. 28 to make disciples of "all the nations" versus every single person on earth. The focus was that the gospel was radically available for all people, not just Jewish people; both Judea and Samaria.

---

I thought according to your theology it was only available for the elect. And we have beaten 1 Timothy 2 to death. Care to discuss any of the other verses I listed?

---

Correct. The idea is that the Lord has not come back down until all these peoples have been saved. He is patient to accomplish (and let us participate) the decrees in which he has set into motion.

---

Forgive me if I am wrong but I thought your theology states they were already saved from before the beginning of time. So they are saved but have to hear the Gospel? I am confused.

---

Absolutely! Ephesians 1 my friend!

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I understand it doesn't blatantly say "all types" but the alternative is to agree that they are being told to pray for, make intercession for every single individual person. I don't see that being reality.

Furthermore, the disciples were told in Matt. 28 to make disciples of "all the nations" versus every single person on earth. The focus was that the gospel was radically available for all people, not just Jewish people; both Judea and Samaria.

---

I thought according to your theology it was only available for the elect. And we have beaten 1 Timothy 2 to death. Care to discuss any of the other verses I listed?

---

Correct. The idea is that the Lord has not come back down until all these peoples have been saved. He is patient to accomplish (and let us participate) the decrees in which he has set into motion.

---

Forgive me if I am wrong but I thought your theology states they were already saved from before the beginning of time. So they are saved but have to hear the Gospel? I am confused.

---

Absolutely! Ephesians 1 my friend!

"Being saved" is often used in three senses....we have been saved (justified), are being saved (sanctified) and will be saved (glorified).

---

I agree with that. But the elect are saved whether they hear the Gospel or not?

dermdoc said:

---

How about we discuss Titus 2 11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

---

Titus 2
But as for you, teach what accords with sound doctrine. Older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. Likewise, urge the younger men to be self-controlled. Show yourself in all respects to be a model of good works, and in your teaching show integrity, dignity, and sound speech that cannot be condemned, so that an opponent may be put to shame, having nothing evil to say about us. Bondservants are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Declare these things; exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

Verses 1-10 is exhorting different categories or types of peoples and then verse 11 transitions with continued thought...."for the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people..."

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I understand it doesn't blatantly say "all types" but the alternative is to agree that they are being told to pray for, make intercession for every single individual person. I don't see that being reality.

Furthermore, the disciples were told in Matt. 28 to make disciples of "all the nations" versus every single person on earth. The focus was that the gospel was radically available for all people, not just Jewish people; both Judea and Samaria.

---

I thought according to your theology it was only available for the elect. And we have beaten 1 Timothy 2 to death. Care to discuss any of the other verses I listed?

---

Correct. The idea is that the Lord has not come back down until all these peoples have been saved. He is patient to accomplish (and let us participate) the decrees in which he has set into motion.

---

Forgive me if I am wrong but I thought your theology states they were already saved from before the beginning of time. So they are saved but have to hear the Gospel? I am confused.

---

Absolutely! Ephesians 1 my friend!

"Being saved" is often used in three senses....we have been saved (justified), are being saved (sanctified) and will be saved (glorified).

---

I agree with that. But the elect are saved whether they hear the Gospel or not?

---

That isn't how it works. The elect will hear the gospel and will place their trust in Christ.

With all due respect I disagree. I do not see how mentioning different groups of people takes away from the meaning of all. To me, all means all.
It is like you have a preconceived Reformed/Calvinist bias and then read that into what I believe is clear meaning of Scripture. I believe it is eisegesis.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

I understand it doesn't blatantly say "all types" but the alternative is to agree that they are being told to pray for, make intercession for every single individual person. I don't see that being reality.

Furthermore, the disciples were told in Matt. 28 to make disciples of "all the nations" versus every single person on earth. The focus was that the gospel was radically available for all people, not just Jewish people; both Judea and Samaria.

---

I thought according to your theology it was only available for the elect. And we have beaten 1 Timothy 2 to death. Care to discuss any of the other verses I listed?

---

Correct. The idea is that the Lord has not come back down until all these peoples have been saved. He is patient to accomplish (and let us participate) the decrees in which he has set into motion.

---

Forgive me if I am wrong but I thought your theology states they were already saved from before the beginning of time. So they are saved but have to hear the Gospel? I am confused.

---

Absolutely! Ephesians 1 my friend!

"Being saved" is often used in three senses....we have been saved (justified), are being saved (sanctified) and will be saved (glorified).

---

I agree with that. But the elect are saved whether they hear the Gospel or not?

---

That isn't how it works. The elect will hear the gospel and will place their trust in Christ.

---

Got it. I actually understand that.

End of the day, if God desired every single person to be saved, they would be. I cannot personally reconcile how one would come to the conclusion that an all powerful God desires something but doesn't get it? Seems weird.

Only two options are Universalist or Calvinist.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

End of the day, if God desired every single person to be saved, they would be. I cannot personally reconcile how one would come to the conclusion that an all powerful God desires something but doesn't get it? Seems weird.

Only two options are Universalist or Calvinist.

---

I think I agree. And I know me and my family are saved. I worry about other folks. It is hard for me to accept eternal damnation. Have to trust God as it is out of my hands,

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

---

And He desires all men to be saved.

---

He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

---

Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?

---

Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

---

Man, I do not think that and have no idea how you got that from what I posted. There is a huge difference between God desiring everyone be saved(which is Scripture) and God desires harm on us. That would make Gid a sinner in my mind. Just like double predestination does.
We live in a fallen world because of sin. Why God allows pain, I have no idea except for our own good and growth. But I certainly don't think He desires us to have pain.

---

I got there because you're constantly creating this strawman to justify why universalism is representative of the only "good" god.

You continually start with a premise that "god desires x" and so therefore it MUST happen. As you said...who could thwart God.

That reasoning is faulty, but I showed the logical end of it. If anything happens, even the bad stuff, clearly God "desires" it. What could be the other explanation? We can't say that God desires us not to sin, because every person born of a woman has sinned. So God clearly doesn't desire us to be sinless. Which of course then raises the question of why doesn't he just make us sinless? Life would be so much easier.

So the problem is your definition of "desire." You've constructed it to fit your desired outcome as opposed to what Scripture says.

---

Disagree. If there is free will, God can desire anything and man can do the opposite.

---

IF this is the case, this statement:

"Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?" is either not true on your part.

Or maybe you're saying that God saves man, but man can thwart God. that's at least more palatable.

---

I asked it as a rhetorical question as I do not know. I just don't see how if Gid desires to save all men as Scripture says, and one claims that no all men are saved, then man has to be able to Trump God's desires. There is no other logical conclusion.
And if Gid desires all to be saved and all or not, then God's sovereignty, as defined by Calvinists, is limited.
I personally believe Gid can be sovereign and still give man free will.

---

The other logical conclusion is that that is not God's chief desire.

It's like saying I desire to eat that chocolate cake but I also desire to look great at the beach this summer; one is going to trump the other. Say you choose not to eat the cake, does that mean you never desired to eat it?

---

I am sorry but that does not make sense to me. It seems so clear what Scripture is saying. And this is God we are talking about. Not some human trying to decide whether to be fat or not.

---

What about comparing His "desire" statements to His "definitive" statements.

---

Sure.
Romans 14 11 NASB
As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me. And every tongue shall give praise to God.
Luke 2 10
And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for ALL the people.
John 1 29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said "Behold the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world".
John 12 32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.
Romans 5 18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men,
Romans 11 32
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all.
1 Corinthians 15 22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
1 Timothy 2 3-6
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1 Timothy 4 10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe
Titus 2 11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

There are many more but I am tired of typing and I did not want to link a list as no one reads those.
Have a great Saturday with many blessings. Shalom.

---

Just to address a couple:
1 Corinthians 15:22 - the clarifying statement for all is "in Christ"; all those in Christ.

Romans 14:11 I agree this means every single person (I don't believe it's going to be a happy ending for every single person just because they finally acknowledge who God is)

Additionally, we can cherry pick verses all day to support whatever doctrine we can imagine, but things fall apart when we look at scripture as a whole.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

---

And He desires all men to be saved.

---

He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

---

Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?

---

Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

---

Man, I do not think that and have no idea how you got that from what I posted. There is a huge difference between God desiring everyone be saved(which is Scripture) and God desires harm on us. That would make Gid a sinner in my mind. Just like double predestination does.
We live in a fallen world because of sin. Why God allows pain, I have no idea except for our own good and growth. But I certainly don't think He desires us to have pain.

---

I got there because you're constantly creating this strawman to justify why universalism is representative of the only "good" god.

You continually start with a premise that "god desires x" and so therefore it MUST happen. As you said...who could thwart God.

That reasoning is faulty, but I showed the logical end of it. If anything happens, even the bad stuff, clearly God "desires" it. What could be the other explanation? We can't say that God desires us not to sin, because every person born of a woman has sinned. So God clearly doesn't desire us to be sinless. Which of course then raises the question of why doesn't he just make us sinless? Life would be so much easier.

So the problem is your definition of "desire." You've constructed it to fit your desired outcome as opposed to what Scripture says.

---

Disagree. If there is free will, God can desire anything and man can do the opposite.

---

IF this is the case, this statement:

"Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?" is either not true on your part.

Or maybe you're saying that God saves man, but man can thwart God. that's at least more palatable.

---

I asked it as a rhetorical question as I do not know. I just don't see how if Gid desires to save all men as Scripture says, and one claims that no all men are saved, then man has to be able to Trump God's desires. There is no other logical conclusion.
And if Gid desires all to be saved and all or not, then God's sovereignty, as defined by Calvinists, is limited.
I personally believe Gid can be sovereign and still give man free will.

---

The other logical conclusion is that that is not God's chief desire.

It's like saying I desire to eat that chocolate cake but I also desire to look great at the beach this summer; one is going to trump the other. Say you choose not to eat the cake, does that mean you never desired to eat it?

---

I am sorry but that does not make sense to me. It seems so clear what Scripture is saying. And this is God we are talking about. Not some human trying to decide whether to be fat or not.

---

What about comparing His "desire" statements to His "definitive" statements.

---

Sure.
Romans 14 11 NASB
As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me. And every tongue shall give praise to God.
Luke 2 10
And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for ALL the people.
John 1 29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said "Behold the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world".
John 12 32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.
Romans 5 18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men,
Romans 11 32
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all.
1 Corinthians 15 22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
1 Timothy 2 3-6
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1 Timothy 4 10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe
Titus 2 11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

There are many more but I am tired of typing and I did not want to link a list as no one reads those.
Have a great Saturday with many blessings. Shalom.

---

Just to address a couple:
1 Corinthians 15:22 - the clarifying statement for all is "in Christ"; all those in Christ.

Romans 14:11 I agree this means every single person (I don't believe it's going to be a happy ending for every single person just because they finally acknowledge who God is)

Additionally, we can cherry pick verses all day to support whatever doctrine we can imagine, but things fall apart when we look at scripture as a whole.

---

Agree. Exactly how I feel about Reformed/Calvinism. And you sure interpret "in Christ all shall be made alive" differently than I do. May I ask if you have always been Reformed?

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

---

And He desires all men to be saved.

---

He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

---

Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?

---

Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

---

Man, I do not think that and have no idea how you got that from what I posted. There is a huge difference between God desiring everyone be saved(which is Scripture) and God desires harm on us. That would make Gid a sinner in my mind. Just like double predestination does.
We live in a fallen world because of sin. Why God allows pain, I have no idea except for our own good and growth. But I certainly don't think He desires us to have pain.

---

I got there because you're constantly creating this strawman to justify why universalism is representative of the only "good" god.

You continually start with a premise that "god desires x" and so therefore it MUST happen. As you said...who could thwart God.

That reasoning is faulty, but I showed the logical end of it. If anything happens, even the bad stuff, clearly God "desires" it. What could be the other explanation? We can't say that God desires us not to sin, because every person born of a woman has sinned. So God clearly doesn't desire us to be sinless. Which of course then raises the question of why doesn't he just make us sinless? Life would be so much easier.

So the problem is your definition of "desire." You've constructed it to fit your desired outcome as opposed to what Scripture says.

---

Disagree. If there is free will, God can desire anything and man can do the opposite.

---

IF this is the case, this statement:

"Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?" is either not true on your part.

Or maybe you're saying that God saves man, but man can thwart God. that's at least more palatable.

---

I asked it as a rhetorical question as I do not know. I just don't see how if Gid desires to save all men as Scripture says, and one claims that no all men are saved, then man has to be able to Trump God's desires. There is no other logical conclusion.
And if Gid desires all to be saved and all or not, then God's sovereignty, as defined by Calvinists, is limited.
I personally believe Gid can be sovereign and still give man free will.

---

The other logical conclusion is that that is not God's chief desire.

It's like saying I desire to eat that chocolate cake but I also desire to look great at the beach this summer; one is going to trump the other. Say you choose not to eat the cake, does that mean you never desired to eat it?

---

I am sorry but that does not make sense to me. It seems so clear what Scripture is saying. And this is God we are talking about. Not some human trying to decide whether to be fat or not.

---

What about comparing His "desire" statements to His "definitive" statements.

---

Sure.
Romans 14 11 NASB
As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me. And every tongue shall give praise to God.
Luke 2 10
And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for ALL the people.
John 1 29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said "Behold the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world".
John 12 32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.
Romans 5 18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men,
Romans 11 32
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all.
1 Corinthians 15 22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
1 Timothy 2 3-6
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1 Timothy 4 10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe
Titus 2 11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

There are many more but I am tired of typing and I did not want to link a list as no one reads those.
Have a great Saturday with many blessings. Shalom.

---

Just to address a couple:
1 Corinthians 15:22 - the clarifying statement for all is "in Christ"; all those in Christ.

Romans 14:11 I agree this means every single person (I don't believe it's going to be a happy ending for every single person just because they finally acknowledge who God is)

Additionally, we can cherry pick verses all day to support whatever doctrine we can imagine, but things fall apart when we look at scripture as a whole.

---

Agree. Exactly how I feel about Reformed/Calvinism. And you sure interpret "in Christ all shall be made alive" differently than I do. May I ask if you have always been Reformed?

---

Yes, I just didn't know it until later in life. (That's a joke with some truth to it).

But no, I have not.

Would add Origen to the list. Later punished but a great early church thinker.

nortex97 said:

---

Would add Origen to the list. Later punished but a great early church thinker.

---

Many think he was punished for his thoughts on universal reconciliation. But with closer reading it appears he was called a heretic for believing souls were eternal and incorporated into human bodies at birth.

And you are correct as he was looked up to as one of the greatest church thinkers. As was St. Gregory of Nyssa who was also a believer in apokatastasis, or ultimate reconciliation.

Here is Hart's view on Origen. I agree with his assessment, especially of Justinian. And forgive me but his comments on "infernalists" and the "Hellfire club" made me smile.
https://firstthings.com/saint-origen/

That's great, thx. I laughed several times. Origen is an under-rated hero of the early church indeed to me, and I agree with David Bentley Hart it's a shame so much of his legacy/impact is ignored as a result of much later distortion/actions.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

---

And He desires all men to be saved.

---

He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

---

Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?

---

Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

---

Man, I do not think that and have no idea how you got that from what I posted. There is a huge difference between God desiring everyone be saved(which is Scripture) and God desires harm on us. That would make Gid a sinner in my mind. Just like double predestination does.
We live in a fallen world because of sin. Why God allows pain, I have no idea except for our own good and growth. But I certainly don't think He desires us to have pain.

---

I got there because you're constantly creating this strawman to justify why universalism is representative of the only "good" god.

You continually start with a premise that "god desires x" and so therefore it MUST happen. As you said...who could thwart God.

That reasoning is faulty, but I showed the logical end of it. If anything happens, even the bad stuff, clearly God "desires" it. What could be the other explanation? We can't say that God desires us not to sin, because every person born of a woman has sinned. So God clearly doesn't desire us to be sinless. Which of course then raises the question of why doesn't he just make us sinless? Life would be so much easier.

So the problem is your definition of "desire." You've constructed it to fit your desired outcome as opposed to what Scripture says.

---

Disagree. If there is free will, God can desire anything and man can do the opposite.

---

IF this is the case, this statement:

"Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?" is either not true on your part.

Or maybe you're saying that God saves man, but man can thwart God. that's at least more palatable.

---

I asked it as a rhetorical question as I do not know. I just don't see how if Gid desires to save all men as Scripture says, and one claims that no all men are saved, then man has to be able to Trump God's desires. There is no other logical conclusion.
And if Gid desires all to be saved and all or not, then God's sovereignty, as defined by Calvinists, is limited.
I personally believe Gid can be sovereign and still give man free will.

---

The other logical conclusion is that that is not God's chief desire.

It's like saying I desire to eat that chocolate cake but I also desire to look great at the beach this summer; one is going to trump the other. Say you choose not to eat the cake, does that mean you never desired to eat it?

---

I am sorry but that does not make sense to me. It seems so clear what Scripture is saying. And this is God we are talking about. Not some human trying to decide whether to be fat or not.

---

What about comparing His "desire" statements to His "definitive" statements.

---

Sure.
Romans 14 11 NASB
As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me. And every tongue shall give praise to God.
Luke 2 10
And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for ALL the people.
John 1 29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said "Behold the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world".
John 12 32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.
Romans 5 18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men,
Romans 11 32
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all.
1 Corinthians 15 22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
1 Timothy 2 3-6
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1 Timothy 4 10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe
Titus 2 11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

There are many more but I am tired of typing and I did not want to link a list as no one reads those.
Have a great Saturday with many blessings. Shalom.

---

Just to address a couple:
1 Corinthians 15:22 - the clarifying statement for all is "in Christ"; all those in Christ.

Romans 14:11 I agree this means every single person (I don't believe it's going to be a happy ending for every single person just because they finally acknowledge who God is)

Additionally, we can cherry pick verses all day to support whatever doctrine we can imagine, but things fall apart when we look at scripture as a whole.

---

Agree. Exactly how I feel about Reformed/Calvinism. And you sure interpret "in Christ all shall be made alive" differently than I do. May I ask if you have always been Reformed?

---

Yes, I just didn't know it until later in life. (That's a joke with some truth to it).

But no, I have not.

---

Why do you ask?

And what does these verses mean to you?

Matthew 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

nortex97 said:

---

That's great, thx. I laughed several times. Origen is an under-rated hero of the early church indeed to me, and I agree with David Bentley Hart it's a shame so much of his legacy/impact is ignored as a result of much later distortion/actions.

---

I believe it was all political.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

---

And He desires all men to be saved.

---

He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

---

Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?

---

Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

---

Man, I do not think that and have no idea how you got that from what I posted. There is a huge difference between God desiring everyone be saved(which is Scripture) and God desires harm on us. That would make Gid a sinner in my mind. Just like double predestination does.
We live in a fallen world because of sin. Why God allows pain, I have no idea except for our own good and growth. But I certainly don't think He desires us to have pain.

---

I got there because you're constantly creating this strawman to justify why universalism is representative of the only "good" god.

You continually start with a premise that "god desires x" and so therefore it MUST happen. As you said...who could thwart God.

That reasoning is faulty, but I showed the logical end of it. If anything happens, even the bad stuff, clearly God "desires" it. What could be the other explanation? We can't say that God desires us not to sin, because every person born of a woman has sinned. So God clearly doesn't desire us to be sinless. Which of course then raises the question of why doesn't he just make us sinless? Life would be so much easier.

So the problem is your definition of "desire." You've constructed it to fit your desired outcome as opposed to what Scripture says.

---

Disagree. If there is free will, God can desire anything and man can do the opposite.

---

IF this is the case, this statement:

"Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?" is either not true on your part.

Or maybe you're saying that God saves man, but man can thwart God. that's at least more palatable.

---

I asked it as a rhetorical question as I do not know. I just don't see how if Gid desires to save all men as Scripture says, and one claims that no all men are saved, then man has to be able to Trump God's desires. There is no other logical conclusion.
And if Gid desires all to be saved and all or not, then God's sovereignty, as defined by Calvinists, is limited.
I personally believe Gid can be sovereign and still give man free will.

---

The other logical conclusion is that that is not God's chief desire.

It's like saying I desire to eat that chocolate cake but I also desire to look great at the beach this summer; one is going to trump the other. Say you choose not to eat the cake, does that mean you never desired to eat it?

---

I am sorry but that does not make sense to me. It seems so clear what Scripture is saying. And this is God we are talking about. Not some human trying to decide whether to be fat or not.

---

What about comparing His "desire" statements to His "definitive" statements.

---

Sure.
Romans 14 11 NASB
As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me. And every tongue shall give praise to God.
Luke 2 10
And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for ALL the people.
John 1 29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said "Behold the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world".
John 12 32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.
Romans 5 18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men,
Romans 11 32
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all.
1 Corinthians 15 22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
1 Timothy 2 3-6
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1 Timothy 4 10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe
Titus 2 11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

There are many more but I am tired of typing and I did not want to link a list as no one reads those.
Have a great Saturday with many blessings. Shalom.

---

Just to address a couple:
1 Corinthians 15:22 - the clarifying statement for all is "in Christ"; all those in Christ.

Romans 14:11 I agree this means every single person (I don't believe it's going to be a happy ending for every single person just because they finally acknowledge who God is)

Additionally, we can cherry pick verses all day to support whatever doctrine we can imagine, but things fall apart when we look at scripture as a whole.

---

Agree. Exactly how I feel about Reformed/Calvinism. And you sure interpret "in Christ all shall be made alive" differently than I do. May I ask if you have always been Reformed?

---

Yes, I just didn't know it until later in life. (That's a joke with some truth to it).

But no, I have not.

---

Why do you ask?

And what does these verses mean to you?

Matthew 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

---

I read that as Jesus is warning us how destructive sin is to our lives. I look at the fire (and notice it does not say eternal punishment) as a painful but refining fire. Just like when Paul said he was going to turn over a sinning Christian to Satan to make him repent of his sins. But he was not eternally punished.


That is what a loving Father does.

https://www.google.com/search?q=nt+wright+on+matthew+18+8+meaning&client=safari&hs=cPYV&sca_esv=efce329dcb42da65&channel=iphone_bm&source=hp&ei=1FZOasi9LPinmtkPuOWM-QQ&biw=430&bih=775&oq=nt+wrogjt+on

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

---

And He desires all men to be saved.

---

He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

---

Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?

---

Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

---

Man, I do not think that and have no idea how you got that from what I posted. There is a huge difference between God desiring everyone be saved(which is Scripture) and God desires harm on us. That would make Gid a sinner in my mind. Just like double predestination does.
We live in a fallen world because of sin. Why God allows pain, I have no idea except for our own good and growth. But I certainly don't think He desires us to have pain.

---

I got there because you're constantly creating this strawman to justify why universalism is representative of the only "good" god.

You continually start with a premise that "god desires x" and so therefore it MUST happen. As you said...who could thwart God.

That reasoning is faulty, but I showed the logical end of it. If anything happens, even the bad stuff, clearly God "desires" it. What could be the other explanation? We can't say that God desires us not to sin, because every person born of a woman has sinned. So God clearly doesn't desire us to be sinless. Which of course then raises the question of why doesn't he just make us sinless? Life would be so much easier.

So the problem is your definition of "desire." You've constructed it to fit your desired outcome as opposed to what Scripture says.

---

Disagree. If there is free will, God can desire anything and man can do the opposite.

---

IF this is the case, this statement:

"Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?" is either not true on your part.

Or maybe you're saying that God saves man, but man can thwart God. that's at least more palatable.

---

I asked it as a rhetorical question as I do not know. I just don't see how if Gid desires to save all men as Scripture says, and one claims that no all men are saved, then man has to be able to Trump God's desires. There is no other logical conclusion.
And if Gid desires all to be saved and all or not, then God's sovereignty, as defined by Calvinists, is limited.
I personally believe Gid can be sovereign and still give man free will.

---

The other logical conclusion is that that is not God's chief desire.

It's like saying I desire to eat that chocolate cake but I also desire to look great at the beach this summer; one is going to trump the other. Say you choose not to eat the cake, does that mean you never desired to eat it?

---

I am sorry but that does not make sense to me. It seems so clear what Scripture is saying. And this is God we are talking about. Not some human trying to decide whether to be fat or not.

---

What about comparing His "desire" statements to His "definitive" statements.

---

Sure.
Romans 14 11 NASB
As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me. And every tongue shall give praise to God.
Luke 2 10
And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for ALL the people.
John 1 29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said "Behold the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world".
John 12 32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.
Romans 5 18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men,
Romans 11 32
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all.
1 Corinthians 15 22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
1 Timothy 2 3-6
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1 Timothy 4 10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe
Titus 2 11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

There are many more but I am tired of typing and I did not want to link a list as no one reads those.
Have a great Saturday with many blessings. Shalom.

---

Just to address a couple:
1 Corinthians 15:22 - the clarifying statement for all is "in Christ"; all those in Christ.

Romans 14:11 I agree this means every single person (I don't believe it's going to be a happy ending for every single person just because they finally acknowledge who God is)

Additionally, we can cherry pick verses all day to support whatever doctrine we can imagine, but things fall apart when we look at scripture as a whole.

---

Agree. Exactly how I feel about Reformed/Calvinism. And you sure interpret "in Christ all shall be made alive" differently than I do. May I ask if you have always been Reformed?

---

Yes, I just didn't know it until later in life. (That's a joke with some truth to it).

But no, I have not.

---

Why do you ask?

And what does these verses mean to you?

Matthew 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

---

I read that as Jesus is warning us how destructive sin is to our lives. I look at the fire (and notice it does not say eternal punishment) as a painful but refining fire. Just like when Paul said he was going to turn over a sinning Christian to Satan to make him repent of his sins. But he was not eternally punished.


That is what a loving Father does.

---

Ok, don't disagree with the google link you shared. He even mentions eternal ruin and catastrophic, eternal consequences.

Why did you ask about how long I've been reformed?

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

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I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

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But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

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Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

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Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

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I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

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And He desires all men to be saved.

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He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

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Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?

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Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

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Man, I do not think that and have no idea how you got that from what I posted. There is a huge difference between God desiring everyone be saved(which is Scripture) and God desires harm on us. That would make Gid a sinner in my mind. Just like double predestination does.
We live in a fallen world because of sin. Why God allows pain, I have no idea except for our own good and growth. But I certainly don't think He desires us to have pain.

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I got there because you're constantly creating this strawman to justify why universalism is representative of the only "good" god.

You continually start with a premise that "god desires x" and so therefore it MUST happen. As you said...who could thwart God.

That reasoning is faulty, but I showed the logical end of it. If anything happens, even the bad stuff, clearly God "desires" it. What could be the other explanation? We can't say that God desires us not to sin, because every person born of a woman has sinned. So God clearly doesn't desire us to be sinless. Which of course then raises the question of why doesn't he just make us sinless? Life would be so much easier.

So the problem is your definition of "desire." You've constructed it to fit your desired outcome as opposed to what Scripture says.

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Disagree. If there is free will, God can desire anything and man can do the opposite.

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IF this is the case, this statement:

"Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?" is either not true on your part.

Or maybe you're saying that God saves man, but man can thwart God. that's at least more palatable.

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I asked it as a rhetorical question as I do not know. I just don't see how if Gid desires to save all men as Scripture says, and one claims that no all men are saved, then man has to be able to Trump God's desires. There is no other logical conclusion.
And if Gid desires all to be saved and all or not, then God's sovereignty, as defined by Calvinists, is limited.
I personally believe Gid can be sovereign and still give man free will.

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The other logical conclusion is that that is not God's chief desire.

It's like saying I desire to eat that chocolate cake but I also desire to look great at the beach this summer; one is going to trump the other. Say you choose not to eat the cake, does that mean you never desired to eat it?

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I am sorry but that does not make sense to me. It seems so clear what Scripture is saying. And this is God we are talking about. Not some human trying to decide whether to be fat or not.

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What about comparing His "desire" statements to His "definitive" statements.

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Sure.
Romans 14 11 NASB
As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me. And every tongue shall give praise to God.
Luke 2 10
And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for ALL the people.
John 1 29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said "Behold the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world".
John 12 32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.
Romans 5 18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men,
Romans 11 32
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all.
1 Corinthians 15 22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
1 Timothy 2 3-6
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1 Timothy 4 10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe
Titus 2 11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

There are many more but I am tired of typing and I did not want to link a list as no one reads those.
Have a great Saturday with many blessings. Shalom.

---

Just to address a couple:
1 Corinthians 15:22 - the clarifying statement for all is "in Christ"; all those in Christ.

Romans 14:11 I agree this means every single person (I don't believe it's going to be a happy ending for every single person just because they finally acknowledge who God is)

Additionally, we can cherry pick verses all day to support whatever doctrine we can imagine, but things fall apart when we look at scripture as a whole.

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Agree. Exactly how I feel about Reformed/Calvinism. And you sure interpret "in Christ all shall be made alive" differently than I do. May I ask if you have always been Reformed?

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Yes, I just didn't know it until later in life. (That's a joke with some truth to it).

But no, I have not.

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Why do you ask?

And what does these verses mean to you?

Matthew 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

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I read that as Jesus is warning us how destructive sin is to our lives. I look at the fire (and notice it does not say eternal punishment) as a painful but refining fire. Just like when Paul said he was going to turn over a sinning Christian to Satan to make him repent of his sins. But he was not eternally punished.


That is what a loving Father does.

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Ok, don't disagree with the google link you shared. He even mentions eternal ruin and catastrophic, eternal consequences.

Why did you ask about how long I've been reformed?

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Because you put the "R" in Reformed as far as your theology. Every Scripture you post is read entirely through a Reformed lens. Which is fine. Just an observation.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

---

And He desires all men to be saved.

---

He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

---

Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?

---

Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

---

Man, I do not think that and have no idea how you got that from what I posted. There is a huge difference between God desiring everyone be saved(which is Scripture) and God desires harm on us. That would make Gid a sinner in my mind. Just like double predestination does.
We live in a fallen world because of sin. Why God allows pain, I have no idea except for our own good and growth. But I certainly don't think He desires us to have pain.

---

I got there because you're constantly creating this strawman to justify why universalism is representative of the only "good" god.

You continually start with a premise that "god desires x" and so therefore it MUST happen. As you said...who could thwart God.

That reasoning is faulty, but I showed the logical end of it. If anything happens, even the bad stuff, clearly God "desires" it. What could be the other explanation? We can't say that God desires us not to sin, because every person born of a woman has sinned. So God clearly doesn't desire us to be sinless. Which of course then raises the question of why doesn't he just make us sinless? Life would be so much easier.

So the problem is your definition of "desire." You've constructed it to fit your desired outcome as opposed to what Scripture says.

---

Disagree. If there is free will, God can desire anything and man can do the opposite.

---

IF this is the case, this statement:

"Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?" is either not true on your part.

Or maybe you're saying that God saves man, but man can thwart God. that's at least more palatable.

---

I asked it as a rhetorical question as I do not know. I just don't see how if Gid desires to save all men as Scripture says, and one claims that no all men are saved, then man has to be able to Trump God's desires. There is no other logical conclusion.
And if Gid desires all to be saved and all or not, then God's sovereignty, as defined by Calvinists, is limited.
I personally believe Gid can be sovereign and still give man free will.

---

The other logical conclusion is that that is not God's chief desire.

It's like saying I desire to eat that chocolate cake but I also desire to look great at the beach this summer; one is going to trump the other. Say you choose not to eat the cake, does that mean you never desired to eat it?

---

I am sorry but that does not make sense to me. It seems so clear what Scripture is saying. And this is God we are talking about. Not some human trying to decide whether to be fat or not.

---

What about comparing His "desire" statements to His "definitive" statements.

---

Sure.
Romans 14 11 NASB
As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me. And every tongue shall give praise to God.
Luke 2 10
And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for ALL the people.
John 1 29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and said "Behold the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world".
John 12 32
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.
Romans 5 18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men,
Romans 11 32
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all.
1 Corinthians 15 22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive.
1 Timothy 2 3-6
This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1 Timothy 4 10
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe
Titus 2 11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

There are many more but I am tired of typing and I did not want to link a list as no one reads those.
Have a great Saturday with many blessings. Shalom.

---

Just to address a couple:
1 Corinthians 15:22 - the clarifying statement for all is "in Christ"; all those in Christ.

Romans 14:11 I agree this means every single person (I don't believe it's going to be a happy ending for every single person just because they finally acknowledge who God is)

Additionally, we can cherry pick verses all day to support whatever doctrine we can imagine, but things fall apart when we look at scripture as a whole.

---

Agree. Exactly how I feel about Reformed/Calvinism. And you sure interpret "in Christ all shall be made alive" differently than I do. May I ask if you have always been Reformed?

---

Yes, I just didn't know it until later in life. (That's a joke with some truth to it).

But no, I have not.

---

Why do you ask?

And what does these verses mean to you?

Matthew 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

---

I read that as Jesus is warning us how destructive sin is to our lives. I look at the fire (and notice it does not say eternal punishment) as a painful but refining fire. Just like when Paul said he was going to turn over a sinning Christian to Satan to make him repent of his sins. But he was not eternally punished.


That is what a loving Father does.

---

Ok, don't disagree with the google link you shared. He even mentions eternal ruin and catastrophic, eternal consequences.

Why did you ask about how long I've been reformed?

---

But Wright is clear the people do it to themselves by being unrepentant. It is self punishment caused by rejecting God. This is what CS Lewis thought also. In Reformed theology, unless they are of the elect, this is their fate. They have no chance.