If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

Then we would disagree on the word "govern" and how He does so as it relates to the salvation of the world

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Then we would disagree on the word "govern" and how He does so as it relates to the salvation of the world

---

Govern is a very broad term. To govern with love and allow free will while remaining totally sovereign is totally different than an absolute tyrant deciding everyone's fate.
There is a reason Jesus used Abba, which is a loving term like Daddy, in the Lord's Prayer. Is there anything your child could do that would make you consign them to eternal torment?

And was "salvation of the world" a Christian Universalist slip? Just kidding. It is fascinating that is one of the Christian universalist Scriptures I gave you.

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Then we would disagree on the word "govern" and how He does so as it relates to the salvation of the world

---

Govern is a very broad term. To govern with love and allow free will while remaining totally sovereign is totally different than an absolute tyrant deciding everyone's fate.
There is a reason Jesus used Abba, which is a loving term like Daddy, in the Lord's Prayer. Is there anything your child could do that would make you consign them to eternal torment?

And was "salvation of the world" a Christian Universalist slip? Just kidding. It is fascinating that is one of the Christian universalist Scriptures I gave you.

---

You know you've got different definitions of "world"…and "all"

Also, your admiration of C.S. Lewis gives me a lot (some?) insight into you. (I am trying to come up with a completely neutral way to make this comment so if it comes across as anything but, please don't read it that way…I noticed the exasperation you were feeling due to taking some things in a snarky away - trying to avoid that!)

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Disagree. God creates all people. Any good they do comes from God. But I believe God gives us free will so we can reject Him if we so desire.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

---

And He desires all men to be saved.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

I'm not Calvinists, so I certainly believe that we aren't truly free.

Certainly we have free will with respect to our decision making in general, but in terms of our relationship to God or HIs commands, it's not "free will." We only know of God because of His doing. Our salvation is in His hands. We only know any of this because of God.

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Disagree. God creates all people. Any good they do comes from God. But I believe God gives us free will so we can reject Him if we so desire.

---

So you're just articulating the Lutheran position. We can't freely earn, pick, select, or choose our salvation. That's a monergistic act of God. How we absolutely can cooperate in our rejection of Him

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

---

And He desires all men to be saved.

---

He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

---

And He desires all men to be saved.

---

He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

---

Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

---

And He desires all men to be saved.

---

He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

---

Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?

---

This is why you either need to be in the Calvinist camp or the universalist camp. I don't know how you answer this question in the middle.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

---

And He desires all men to be saved.

---

He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

---

Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?

---

This is why you either need to be in the Calvinist camp or the universalist camp. I don't know how you answer this question in the middle.

---

Only if you don't believe in free will as far as salvation goes. I personally do not see how one could be a Calvinist and not be a universalist. If God is sovereign (in the way Calvinists define sovereignty) and desires all men be saved, you would have to assume you believe all are saved. Or God is not sovereign as concerns salvation.

again, we do not see eye to eye on what "all" means

10andBOUNCE said:

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again, we do not see eye to eye on what "all" means

---

Fair enough. God's blessings.

All of page 8 is a perfect example of how Luther's propagation of monergistic salvation was the poison pill of the reformation. God is in full and total control of every good action that any person does, which conversely leads to God being the reason people sin. Even though He's the only one who could have stopped us from committing a sin He supposedly didn't want us to do, we're helpless to not sin if He isn't actively stopping it. And clearly He doesn't actively stop every sin, even though He's the only one who can. There's not way around this. Every time we sin it's because He wanted that sin to happen. Not to mention all of those sins from people He chose not to save to begin with because He didn't want them. If there is no actual free will, then those sins are on Him.

Simple example of monergism in practice:

If this post is something that is pleasing to God, it's because He's making me do it, even though it feels like I'm cooperating with Him. Those cooperative feelings are there because He wants them to be there, meaning that God is intentionally deceiving me. So even in my good actions, God is a liar.

If this post isn't from God, it's because He chose not to stop me. Meaning He wants me to share a sinful post, even though He supposedly detests sin. And the feeling that I am cooperating with God in this post are also present because of Him. So even in my sins, God is a liar.

The monergism/free will issue is an issue about the nature of God Himself. There is a reason the 2nd Council of Orange rejected this aspect of Augustine's teaching over 1400 years ago, and you don't find monergism taught by anyone else but him. I don't think it's a good idea to shrug this off as "we can't really know" when it's this vital of an issue.

The Banned said:

---

All of page 8 is a perfect example of how Luther's propagation of monergistic salvation was the poison pill of the reformation. God is in full and total control of every good action that any person does, which conversely leads to God being the reason people sin. Even though He's the only one who could have stopped us from committing a sin He supposedly didn't want us to do, we're helpless to not sin if He isn't actively stopping it. And clearly He doesn't actively stop every sin, even though He's the only one who can. There's not way around this. Every time we sin it's because He wanted that sin to happen. Not to mention all of those sins from people He chose not to save to begin with because He didn't want them. If there is no actual free will, then those sins are on Him.

Simple example of monergism in practice:

If this post is something that is pleasing to God, it's because He's making me do it, even though it feels like I'm cooperating with Him. Those cooperative feelings are there because He wants them to be there, meaning that God is intentionally deceiving me. So even in my good actions, God is a liar.

If this post isn't from God, it's because He chose not to stop me. Meaning He wants me to share a sinful post, even though He supposedly detests sin. And the feeling that I am cooperating with God in this post are also present because of Him. So even in my sins, God is a liar.

The monergism/free will issue is an issue about the nature of God Himself. There is a reason the 2nd Council of Orange rejected this aspect of Augustine's teaching over 1400 years ago, and you don't find monergism taught by anyone else but him. I don't think it's a good idea to shrug this off as "we can't really know" when it's this vital of an issue.

---

What about how God says do not murder but then ordains the murder of Jesus via crucifixion?

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

The Banned said:

---

All of page 8 is a perfect example of how Luther's propagation of monergistic salvation was the poison pill of the reformation. God is in full and total control of every good action that any person does, which conversely leads to God being the reason people sin. Even though He's the only one who could have stopped us from committing a sin He supposedly didn't want us to do, we're helpless to not sin if He isn't actively stopping it. And clearly He doesn't actively stop every sin, even though He's the only one who can. There's not way around this. Every time we sin it's because He wanted that sin to happen. Not to mention all of those sins from people He chose not to save to begin with because He didn't want them. If there is no actual free will, then those sins are on Him.

Simple example of monergism in practice:

If this post is something that is pleasing to God, it's because He's making me do it, even though it feels like I'm cooperating with Him. Those cooperative feelings are there because He wants them to be there, meaning that God is intentionally deceiving me. So even in my good actions, God is a liar.

If this post isn't from God, it's because He chose not to stop me. Meaning He wants me to share a sinful post, even though He supposedly detests sin. And the feeling that I am cooperating with God in this post are also present because of Him. So even in my sins, God is a liar.

The monergism/free will issue is an issue about the nature of God Himself. There is a reason the 2nd Council of Orange rejected this aspect of Augustine's teaching over 1400 years ago, and you don't find monergism taught by anyone else but him. I don't think it's a good idea to shrug this off as "we can't really know" when it's this vital of an issue.

---

What about how God says do not murder but then ordains the murder of Jesus via crucifixion?

---

He knows fallen human nature and He knows humans will murder Him and He allows them to act according to their free will anyway, and works it toward to the salvation of humanity. Ordaining in this sense can be an allowance. It doesn't have to be a cause. A "I don't want them to do this, but I want them to freely choose me more" sort of thing. It can be a little dangerous transposing the way humans desire things on to God, but it's the best language I have.

The other option is like you said. God wants people to do the very thing He says He doesn't want them to do. It turns God into someone who can't make His mind up, or even worse, an abject liar.

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

---

And He desires all men to be saved.

---

He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

---

Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?

---

Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

The Banned said:

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All of page 8 is a perfect example of how Luther's propagation of monergistic salvation was the poison pill of the reformation. God is in full and total control of every good action that any person does, which conversely leads to God being the reason people sin. Even though He's the only one who could have stopped us from committing a sin He supposedly didn't want us to do, we're helpless to not sin if He isn't actively stopping it. And clearly He doesn't actively stop every sin, even though He's the only one who can. There's not way around this. Every time we sin it's because He wanted that sin to happen. Not to mention all of those sins from people He chose not to save to begin with because He didn't want them. If there is no actual free will, then those sins are on Him.

Simple example of monergism in practice:

If this post is something that is pleasing to God, it's because He's making me do it, even though it feels like I'm cooperating with Him. Those cooperative feelings are there because He wants them to be there, meaning that God is intentionally deceiving me. So even in my good actions, God is a liar.

If this post isn't from God, it's because He chose not to stop me. Meaning He wants me to share a sinful post, even though He supposedly detests sin. And the feeling that I am cooperating with God in this post are also present because of Him. So even in my sins, God is a liar.

The monergism/free will issue is an issue about the nature of God Himself. There is a reason the 2nd Council of Orange rejected this aspect of Augustine's teaching over 1400 years ago, and you don't find monergism taught by anyone else but him. I don't think it's a good idea to shrug this off as "we can't really know" when it's this vital of an issue.

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None of this is a representation of Luther's thoughts.

Just Rome's nonsense.

AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

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I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

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But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

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Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

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Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

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I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

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And He desires all men to be saved.

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He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

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Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?

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Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

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Man, I do not think that and have no idea how you got that from what I posted. There is a huge difference between God desiring everyone be saved(which is Scripture) and God desires harm on us. That would make Gid a sinner in my mind. Just like double predestination does.
We live in a fallen world because of sin. Why God allows pain, I have no idea except for our own good and growth. But I certainly don't think He desires us to have pain.

AgLiving06 said:

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The Banned said:

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All of page 8 is a perfect example of how Luther's propagation of monergistic salvation was the poison pill of the reformation. God is in full and total control of every good action that any person does, which conversely leads to God being the reason people sin. Even though He's the only one who could have stopped us from committing a sin He supposedly didn't want us to do, we're helpless to not sin if He isn't actively stopping it. And clearly He doesn't actively stop every sin, even though He's the only one who can. There's not way around this. Every time we sin it's because He wanted that sin to happen. Not to mention all of those sins from people He chose not to save to begin with because He didn't want them. If there is no actual free will, then those sins are on Him.

Simple example of monergism in practice:

If this post is something that is pleasing to God, it's because He's making me do it, even though it feels like I'm cooperating with Him. Those cooperative feelings are there because He wants them to be there, meaning that God is intentionally deceiving me. So even in my good actions, God is a liar.

If this post isn't from God, it's because He chose not to stop me. Meaning He wants me to share a sinful post, even though He supposedly detests sin. And the feeling that I am cooperating with God in this post are also present because of Him. So even in my sins, God is a liar.

The monergism/free will issue is an issue about the nature of God Himself. There is a reason the 2nd Council of Orange rejected this aspect of Augustine's teaching over 1400 years ago, and you don't find monergism taught by anyone else but him. I don't think it's a good idea to shrug this off as "we can't really know" when it's this vital of an issue.

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None of this is a representation of Luther's thoughts.

Just Rome's nonsense.

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I know Luther said this isn't true, but it is the only logical conclusion of his underlying teaching. He denied it until the day he died, but the fact that he can't see the clear logical conclusion is either through willing ignorance, or a complete lack of understanding logical consequences.

- God is solely responsible for every good thing I do
- I don't always do good things
- God chose not to make me do a good thing, preferring I do the bad thing.

Why did God not choose to make me do a good thing if He wants me to do good things? My sins are on Him because He was the only one who had the power to stop me from sinning and he didn't want to

AgLiving06 said:

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Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

---

How is this any worse than a God who intentionally doesn't chose to save people that He is completely in control of saving?

dermdoc said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

---

And He desires all men to be saved.

---

He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

---

Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?

---

Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

---

There is a huge difference between Gid desiring everyone be saved(which is Scripture) and God desires harm on us.

---

Part of my reading this week. Tough passage.

Deuteronomy 28:58-63

"If you are not careful to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, the Lord your God, then the Lord will bring on you and your offspring extraordinary afflictions, afflictions severe and lasting, and sicknesses grievous and lasting. And he will bring upon you again all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. Every sickness also and every affliction that is not recorded in the book of this law, the Lord will bring upon you, until you are destroyed. Whereas you were as numerous as the stars of heaven, you shall be left few in number, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God. And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

---

And He desires all men to be saved.

---

He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

---

Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?

---

Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

---

There is a huge difference between Gid desiring everyone be saved(which is Scripture) and God desires harm on us.

---

Part of my reading this week. Tough passage.

Deuteronomy 28:58-63

"If you are not careful to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, the Lord your God, then the Lord will bring on you and your offspring extraordinary afflictions, afflictions severe and lasting, and sicknesses grievous and lasting. And he will bring upon you again all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. Every sickness also and every affliction that is not recorded in the book of this law, the Lord will bring upon you, until you are destroyed. Whereas you were as numerous as the stars of heaven, you shall be left few in number, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God. And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

---

We are under a new Covenant thank God. And that seems to be directed at the Jews.

The Banned said:

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AgLiving06 said:

---

Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

---

How is this any worse than a God who intentionally doesn't chose to save people that He is completely in control of saving?

---

But God doesn't save people that He's completely in control of saving…unless you're a universalist.

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.

---

I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?

---

But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.

---

Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

---

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?

---

I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

---

And He desires all men to be saved.

---

He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.

---

Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?

---

Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

---

There is a huge difference between Gid desiring everyone be saved(which is Scripture) and God desires harm on us.

---

Part of my reading this week. Tough passage.

Deuteronomy 28:58-63

"If you are not careful to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, the Lord your God, then the Lord will bring on you and your offspring extraordinary afflictions, afflictions severe and lasting, and sicknesses grievous and lasting. And he will bring upon you again all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. Every sickness also and every affliction that is not recorded in the book of this law, the Lord will bring upon you, until you are destroyed. Whereas you were as numerous as the stars of heaven, you shall be left few in number, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God. And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

---

We are under a new Covenant thank God. And that seems to be directed at the Jews.

---

So God changed? His delights are different now than they were before? Obedience and justice mattered then but not now?

Howdy, it is me! said:

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The Banned said:

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AgLiving06 said:

---

Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

---

How is this any worse than a God who intentionally doesn't chose to save people that He is completely in control of saving?

---

But God doesn't save people that He's completely in control of saving…unless you're a universalist.

---

Or unless God gives people free will to accept or reject him.

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

The Banned said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

---

How is this any worse than a God who intentionally doesn't chose to save people that He is completely in control of saving?

---

But God doesn't save people that He's completely in control of saving…unless you're a universalist.

---

Or unless God gives people free will to accept or reject him.

---

Doesn't matter. He's still choosing to not save them by letting them choose for themselves.

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

The Banned said:

---

AgLiving06 said:

---

Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?

---

How is this any worse than a God who intentionally doesn't chose to save people that He is completely in control of saving?

---

But God doesn't save people that He's completely in control of saving…unless you're a universalist.

---

Or unless God gives people free will to accept or reject him.

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Doesn't matter. He's still choosing to not save them by letting them choose for themselves.

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Disagree. They have free will He gave them. They have a choice.
He allows them to reject Him. Totally different than double predestination.