Really good book on Christian Universalism

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The Banned
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Howdy, it is me! said:

The Banned said:

AgLiving06 said:


Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?





How is this any worse than a God who intentionally doesn't chose to save people that He is completely in control of saving?


But God doesn't save people that He's completely in control of saving…unless you're a universalist.

As Derm has said, the answer to this is free will. God is completely in control of offering grace and salvation to every human He created, but He created us to accept that gift freely, not shove it down our throats. So we can say that it is the fault of the damned souls that they are damned. Not because God chose not to save them.
AgLiving06
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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

AgLiving06 said:

The Banned said:

All of page 8 is a perfect example of how Luther's propagation of monergistic salvation was the poison pill of the reformation. God is in full and total control of every good action that any person does, which conversely leads to God being the reason people sin. Even though He's the only one who could have stopped us from committing a sin He supposedly didn't want us to do, we're helpless to not sin if He isn't actively stopping it. And clearly He doesn't actively stop every sin, even though He's the only one who can. There's not way around this. Every time we sin it's because He wanted that sin to happen. Not to mention all of those sins from people He chose not to save to begin with because He didn't want them. If there is no actual free will, then those sins are on Him.

Simple example of monergism in practice:

If this post is something that is pleasing to God, it's because He's making me do it, even though it feels like I'm cooperating with Him. Those cooperative feelings are there because He wants them to be there, meaning that God is intentionally deceiving me. So even in my good actions, God is a liar.

If this post isn't from God, it's because He chose not to stop me. Meaning He wants me to share a sinful post, even though He supposedly detests sin. And the feeling that I am cooperating with God in this post are also present because of Him. So even in my sins, God is a liar.

The monergism/free will issue is an issue about the nature of God Himself. There is a reason the 2nd Council of Orange rejected this aspect of Augustine's teaching over 1400 years ago, and you don't find monergism taught by anyone else but him. I don't think it's a good idea to shrug this off as "we can't really know" when it's this vital of an issue.


None of this is a representation of Luther's thoughts.

Just Rome's nonsense.


Man, you really showed him! Good grief.


What do you want me to say? He's blaming Luther for things that aren't relevant to Luther or Lutherans.

It's just wrong.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
The Banned said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

The Banned said:

AgLiving06 said:


Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?





How is this any worse than a God who intentionally doesn't chose to save people that He is completely in control of saving?


But God doesn't save people that He's completely in control of saving…unless you're a universalist.

As Derm has said, the answer to this is free will. God is completely in control of offering grace and salvation to every human He created, but He created us to accept that gift freely, not shove it down our throats. So we can say that it is the fault of the damned souls that they are damned. Not because God chose not to save them.

Then we can play the game of how certain people were given wonderful Christian families or abusive families and how that plays into their ultimate choice. Or do we just trace everyone's free will back for generations only to find that some are essentially paying for the sins of their fathers?
AgLiving06
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dermdoc said:

AgLiving06 said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

AgLiving06 said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.


I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?


But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.




Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?


I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

And He desires all men to be saved.


He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.



Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?


Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?





Man, I do not think that and have no idea how you got that from what I posted. There is a huge difference between God desiring everyone be saved(which is Scripture) and God desires harm on us. That would make Gid a sinner in my mind. Just like double predestination does.
We live in a fallen world because of sin. Why God allows pain, I have no idea except for our own good and growth. But I certainly don't think He desires us to have pain.


I got there because you're constantly creating this strawman to justify why universalism is representative of the only "good" god.

You continually start with a premise that "god desires x" and so therefore it MUST happen. As you said...who could thwart God.

That reasoning is faulty, but I showed the logical end of it. If anything happens, even the bad stuff, clearly God "desires" it. What could be the other explanation? We can't say that God desires us not to sin, because every person born of a woman has sinned. So God clearly doesn't desire us to be sinless. Which of course then raises the question of why doesn't he just make us sinless? Life would be so much easier.

So the problem is your definition of "desire." You've constructed it to fit your desired outcome as opposed to what Scripture says.
Howdy, it is me!
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AG
10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

The Banned said:

AgLiving06 said:


Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?





How is this any worse than a God who intentionally doesn't chose to save people that He is completely in control of saving?


But God doesn't save people that He's completely in control of saving…unless you're a universalist.

As Derm has said, the answer to this is free will. God is completely in control of offering grace and salvation to every human He created, but He created us to accept that gift freely, not shove it down our throats. So we can say that it is the fault of the damned souls that they are damned. Not because God chose not to save them.

Then we can play the game of how certain people were given wonderful Christian families or abusive families and how that plays into their ultimate choice. Or do we just trace everyone's free will back for generations only to find that some are essentially paying for the sins of their fathers?


I've already tried this line of thought.
dermdoc
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AG
AgLiving06 said:

dermdoc said:

AgLiving06 said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

AgLiving06 said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.


I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?


But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.




Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?


I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

And He desires all men to be saved.


He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.



Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?


Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?





Man, I do not think that and have no idea how you got that from what I posted. There is a huge difference between God desiring everyone be saved(which is Scripture) and God desires harm on us. That would make Gid a sinner in my mind. Just like double predestination does.
We live in a fallen world because of sin. Why God allows pain, I have no idea except for our own good and growth. But I certainly don't think He desires us to have pain.


I got there because you're constantly creating this strawman to justify why universalism is representative of the only "good" god.

You continually start with a premise that "god desires x" and so therefore it MUST happen. As you said...who could thwart God.

That reasoning is faulty, but I showed the logical end of it. If anything happens, even the bad stuff, clearly God "desires" it. What could be the other explanation? We can't say that God desires us not to sin, because every person born of a woman has sinned. So God clearly doesn't desire us to be sinless. Which of course then raises the question of why doesn't he just make us sinless? Life would be so much easier.

So the problem is your definition of "desire." You've constructed it to fit your desired outcome as opposed to what Scripture says.

Disagree. If there is free will, God can desire anything and man can do the opposite.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
dermdoc
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AG
AgLiving06 said:

dermdoc said:

AgLiving06 said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

AgLiving06 said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.


I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?


But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.




Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?


I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

And He desires all men to be saved.


He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.



Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?


Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?





Man, I do not think that and have no idea how you got that from what I posted. There is a huge difference between God desiring everyone be saved(which is Scripture) and God desires harm on us. That would make Gid a sinner in my mind. Just like double predestination does.
We live in a fallen world because of sin. Why God allows pain, I have no idea except for our own good and growth. But I certainly don't think He desires us to have pain.


I got there because you're constantly creating this strawman to justify why universalism is representative of the only "good" god.

You continually start with a premise that "god desires x" and so therefore it MUST happen. As you said...who could thwart God.

That reasoning is faulty, but I showed the logical end of it. If anything happens, even the bad stuff, clearly God "desires" it. What could be the other explanation? We can't say that God desires us not to sin, because every person born of a woman has sinned. So God clearly doesn't desire us to be sinless. Which of course then raises the question of why doesn't he just make us sinless? Life would be so much easier.

So the problem is your definition of "desire." You've constructed it to fit your desired outcome as opposed to what Scripture says.

And I have never posted that CHRISTIAN Universalism (please address it like this as universalism is something completely different) is representative of the only "good" God. God is good. That is undeniable. A good God could give mam free will and let him choose his fate. That is definitely not Christian Universalism.
I completely reject that a good God would cheat people pre ordained to eternal torment. Double predestination is not the actions of a good God. And I reject it as it is a man made doctrine. Some Scriptural basis but totally incompatible with the character of God as revealed by Jesus Christ.
And if that belief makes you think I am a heretic or hell bound, so be it. I know the Lord.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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AG
Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

The Banned said:

AgLiving06 said:


Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?





How is this any worse than a God who intentionally doesn't chose to save people that He is completely in control of saving?


But God doesn't save people that He's completely in control of saving…unless you're a universalist.

Or unless God gives people free will to accept or reject him.


Doesn't matter. He's still choosing to not save them by letting them choose for themselves.


Somewhere in all of this maybe we should wrestle with the universal truth that God is love and that we are created out of love for relationship with Love, but that love, to be authentic in the Trinitarian sense of love, must be freely shared and expressed. It cannot be compelled.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son … who is one in the same substance and nature with the godhead.

If we assume God created us out of love for a relationship of love with him, then that love must be freely given, which means it must also be possible to freely choose to not give that love.

dermdoc
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AG
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

The Banned said:

AgLiving06 said:


Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?





How is this any worse than a God who intentionally doesn't chose to save people that He is completely in control of saving?


But God doesn't save people that He's completely in control of saving…unless you're a universalist.

Or unless God gives people free will to accept or reject him.


Doesn't matter. He's still choosing to not save them by letting them choose for themselves.


Somewhere in all of this maybe we should wrestle with the universal truth that God is love and that we are created out of love for relationship with Love, but that love, to be authentic in the Trinitarian sense of love, must be freely shared and expressed. It cannot be compelled.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son … who is one in the same substance and nature with the godhead.

If we assume God created us out of love for a relationship of love with him, then that love must be freely given, which means it must also be possible to freely choose to not give that love.



Very well said. And this is the gist of the argument. It is about God's character. My human brain can not see how the theology of double predestination coupled with ECT hell shows love in any way. Maybe it is me.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
Again, we seem to just have somewhat different takes on even what we were created for. It's not surprising we get off on other things as well. You say a relationship centered on love. I say to to bring glory to God in all the we do. Only one can be supreme.

Westminster Shorter Catechism

Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?
A. Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him for ever.
The Banned
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10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

The Banned said:

AgLiving06 said:

p to H
Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?





How is this any worse than a God who intentionally doesn't chose to save people that He is completely in control of saving?


But God doesn't save people that He's completely in control of saving…unless you're a universalist.

As Derm has said, the answer to this is free will. God is completely in control of offering grace and salvation to every human He created, but He created us to accept that gift freely, not shove it down our throats. So we can say that it is the fault of the damned souls that they are damned. Not because God chose not to save them.

Then we can play the game of how certain people were given wonderful Christian families or abusive families and how that plays into their ultimate choice. Or do we just trace everyone's free will back for generations only to find that some are essentially paying for the sins of their fathers?

By being consistent with 2000 years of Christian teaching and recognizing that God is as perfectly merciful as He is perfectly just. However the upbringing or life experiences of an individual factors into how God judges with perfect mercy and justice is up to Him, and we do not automatically exclude the possibility of their salvation through Jesus in a way that God has not revealed to us
dermdoc
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AG
10andBOUNCE said:

Again, we seem to just have somewhat different takes on even what we were created for. It's not surprising we get off on other things as well. You say a relationship centered on love. I say to to bring glory to God in all the we do. Only one can be supreme.

Westminster Shorter Catechism

Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?
A. Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him for ever.

Amen. Nobody is arguing that. I believe that same catechism supports double predestination. The issue is does God create people pre ordained to eternal torment. Not what the chief end of man is.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
10andBOUNCE
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AG
The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

The Banned said:

AgLiving06 said:

p to H
Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?





How is this any worse than a God who intentionally doesn't chose to save people that He is completely in control of saving?


But God doesn't save people that He's completely in control of saving…unless you're a universalist.

As Derm has said, the answer to this is free will. God is completely in control of offering grace and salvation to every human He created, but He created us to accept that gift freely, not shove it down our throats. So we can say that it is the fault of the damned souls that they are damned. Not because God chose not to save them.

Then we can play the game of how certain people were given wonderful Christian families or abusive families and how that plays into their ultimate choice. Or do we just trace everyone's free will back for generations only to find that some are essentially paying for the sins of their fathers?

By being consistent with 2000 years of Christian teaching and recognizing that God is as perfectly merciful as He is perfectly just. However the upbringing or life experiences of an individual factors into how God judges with perfect mercy and justice is up to Him, and we do not automatically exclude the possibility of their salvation through Jesus in a way that God has not revealed to us

This is conjecture and from my understanding nowhere stated in Scripture.
dermdoc
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AG
10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

The Banned said:

AgLiving06 said:

p to H
Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?





How is this any worse than a God who intentionally doesn't chose to save people that He is completely in control of saving?


But God doesn't save people that He's completely in control of saving…unless you're a universalist.

As Derm has said, the answer to this is free will. God is completely in control of offering grace and salvation to every human He created, but He created us to accept that gift freely, not shove it down our throats. So we can say that it is the fault of the damned souls that they are damned. Not because God chose not to save them.

Then we can play the game of how certain people were given wonderful Christian families or abusive families and how that plays into their ultimate choice. Or do we just trace everyone's free will back for generations only to find that some are essentially paying for the sins of their fathers?

By being consistent with 2000 years of Christian teaching and recognizing that God is as perfectly merciful as He is perfectly just. However the upbringing or life experiences of an individual factors into how God judges with perfect mercy and justice is up to Him, and we do not automatically exclude the possibility of their salvation through Jesus in a way that God has not revealed to us

This is conjecture and from my understanding nowhere stated in Scripture.

So why do the elect all seem to live where Christianity is practiced? And that is not a fair question for you. I apologize.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
The Banned
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AgLiving06 said:

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

AgLiving06 said:

The Banned said:

All of page 8 is a perfect example of how Luther's propagation of monergistic salvation was the poison pill of the reformation. God is in full and total control of every good action that any person does, which conversely leads to God being the reason people sin. Even though He's the only one who could have stopped us from committing a sin He supposedly didn't want us to do, we're helpless to not sin if He isn't actively stopping it. And clearly He doesn't actively stop every sin, even though He's the only one who can. There's not way around this. Every time we sin it's because He wanted that sin to happen. Not to mention all of those sins from people He chose not to save to begin with because He didn't want them. If there is no actual free will, then those sins are on Him.

Simple example of monergism in practice:

If this post is something that is pleasing to God, it's because He's making me do it, even though it feels like I'm cooperating with Him. Those cooperative feelings are there because He wants them to be there, meaning that God is intentionally deceiving me. So even in my good actions, God is a liar.

If this post isn't from God, it's because He chose not to stop me. Meaning He wants me to share a sinful post, even though He supposedly detests sin. And the feeling that I am cooperating with God in this post are also present because of Him. So even in my sins, God is a liar.

The monergism/free will issue is an issue about the nature of God Himself. There is a reason the 2nd Council of Orange rejected this aspect of Augustine's teaching over 1400 years ago, and you don't find monergism taught by anyone else but him. I don't think it's a good idea to shrug this off as "we can't really know" when it's this vital of an issue.


None of this is a representation of Luther's thoughts.

Just Rome's nonsense.


Man, you really showed him! Good grief.


What do you want me to say? He's blaming Luther for things that aren't relevant to Luther or Lutherans.

It's just wrong.

Not relevant to Luther? Erasmus pointed this out to him directly and Luther doubled down on it. How in the world is this not related
The Banned
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10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

The Banned said:

AgLiving06 said:

p to H
Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?





How is this any worse than a God who intentionally doesn't chose to save people that He is completely in control of saving?


But God doesn't save people that He's completely in control of saving…unless you're a universalist.

As Derm has said, the answer to this is free will. God is completely in control of offering grace and salvation to every human He created, but He created us to accept that gift freely, not shove it down our throats. So we can say that it is the fault of the damned souls that they are damned. Not because God chose not to save them.

Then we can play the game of how certain people were given wonderful Christian families or abusive families and how that plays into their ultimate choice. Or do we just trace everyone's free will back for generations only to find that some are essentially paying for the sins of their fathers?

By being consistent with 2000 years of Christian teaching and recognizing that God is as perfectly merciful as He is perfectly just. However the upbringing or life experiences of an individual factors into how God judges with perfect mercy and justice is up to Him, and we do not automatically exclude the possibility of their salvation through Jesus in a way that God has not revealed to us

This is conjecture and from my understanding nowhere stated in Scripture.

We can go to Romans 2 and 1 Timothy 4 to start, not to mention the Church Fathers. This is not some wild claim out of nowhere
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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AG
10andBOUNCE said:

Again, we seem to just have somewhat different takes on even what we were created for. It's not surprising we get off on other things as well. You say a relationship centered on love. I say to to bring glory to God in all the we do. Only one can be supreme.

Westminster Shorter Catechism

Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?
A. Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him for ever.


That's a fair point but I would point out that if we define love as the sacrificial, agape love that is the Trinity, and understand that all true worship involves sacrifice, then it's not hard to see that authentic love and worship are two sides of the same coin.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

10andBOUNCE said:

The Banned said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

The Banned said:

AgLiving06 said:

p to H
Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?





How is this any worse than a God who intentionally doesn't chose to save people that He is completely in control of saving?


But God doesn't save people that He's completely in control of saving…unless you're a universalist.

As Derm has said, the answer to this is free will. God is completely in control of offering grace and salvation to every human He created, but He created us to accept that gift freely, not shove it down our throats. So we can say that it is the fault of the damned souls that they are damned. Not because God chose not to save them.

Then we can play the game of how certain people were given wonderful Christian families or abusive families and how that plays into their ultimate choice. Or do we just trace everyone's free will back for generations only to find that some are essentially paying for the sins of their fathers?

By being consistent with 2000 years of Christian teaching and recognizing that God is as perfectly merciful as He is perfectly just. However the upbringing or life experiences of an individual factors into how God judges with perfect mercy and justice is up to Him, and we do not automatically exclude the possibility of their salvation through Jesus in a way that God has not revealed to us

This is conjecture and from my understanding nowhere stated in Scripture.

We can go to Romans 2 and 1 Timothy 4 to start, not to mention the Church Fathers. This is not some wild claim out of nowhere


Where does Scripture say that to be authentic doctrine something must be stated in Scripture?

10andBOUNCE
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Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

Revelation 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

1 Corinthians 4:6
I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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10andBOUNCE said:

Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

Revelation 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.

1 Corinthians 4:6
I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.


Respectfully, none of that stands for the proposition that you want them to stand for.
10andBOUNCE
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okay
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Let's just use Deuteronomy 4:2 to make the point which basically applies to all the other passages you cite.

The "word" referred to here is the entirety of God's revealed Law given through Moses, specifically the statutes, ordinances, and commandments that God delivered to Israel, most centrally the Ten Commandments (the Decalogue). Later in the same chapter, Moses makes clear that God "proclaimed to you his covenant, which he commanded you to keep: the ten words, which he wrote on two stone tablets."
But the "word" is not limited only to the Decalogue. Moses is addressing the whole body of divine instruction. Moses says he is "teaching you the statutes and ordinances as the LORD, my God, has commanded me," and urges Israel to "observe them carefully, for this is your wisdom and discernment in the sight of the peoples."

How does that stand for the rule that in order to be considered true doctrine, the doctrine must be found in the pages of scripture? It patently does not. It says don't add or detract from the commandments referenced. Great. I agree.

The statement above that you critiqued about not being found in scripture does not unambiguously add to or detract from the commandments Moses is referencing. That is a subjective statement of one person's opinion at best. The same is true for each of the other passages.

So, unless you are saying you are being divinely protected from error or that some "leader" or "elder" in your church's corporate hierarchy is being divinely protected in that way then it's just opinion.
10andBOUNCE
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And I appreciate your opinion. And I can appeal to the idea that it is not verbatim giving clear instruction and guidance regarding the sole authority of Scripture. But I also do think you can apply these general concepts and ideas within reason and come to the conclusion that it makes the most sense to never stray outside the bounds of what Scripture says. I would much rather aim to stay within Scripture at all times, otherwise you are running the risk of straying outside of it with subjection to more man centered ideas.
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10andBOUNCE said:

And I appreciate your opinion. And I can appeal to the idea that it is not verbatim giving clear instruction and guidance regarding the sole authority of Scripture. But I also do think you can apply these general concepts and ideas within reason and come to the conclusion that it makes the most sense to never stray outside the bounds of what Scripture says. I would much rather aim to stay within Scripture at all times, otherwise you are running the risk of straying outside of it with subjection to more man centered ideas.


Fair enough. I appreciate your reasoned response. Thank you.

I agree that doctrine and dogma absolutely cannot be contrary to what scripture teaches. But scripture can be read and interpreted in many divergent ways, so what point can be made by saying doctrine cannot stray outside the bounds of scripture without simultaneously saying "… as interpreted by me/my tradition/my favorite pastor under aegis of Sola Scriptura"?

As you well know Scripture is not some monolithic set of unambiguous prescriptions and prohibitions. It's a multiverse of different kinds of writings from different cultures and times that all have different ways of speaking to us. Surely we agree about that, right?

Scripture can be understood literally (the author's intention), allegorically (the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs; typology), morally (ethical and spiritual guidance) and anagogically (where am I going? what is my destiny?).

Moreover, silence is equally not a prohibition. It's a blank page that the church completes under the guidance of Sacred Tradition and apostolic guidance and divine protection from error. That is precisely how we as disciples of Jesus Christ obtained the canon of scripture. No Sacred Tradition and divinely protected authority to declare what is sacred and true = no reliable canon. It simply is historical fact.

Question: what about divorce? The Incarnate Son of God clearly and unambiguously prohibited divorce as recorded in scripture. In Matthew 5:27-32 we see that divorce and remarriage is prohibited. Jesus says: "27You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. 31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity,* makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

By using the phrases "it was also said" and "but I say to you," Jesus is contrasting His teaching with what the Law said, not simply clarifying it. Consequently, He is prohibiting divorce and remarriage entirely, because it was that way from the beginning.

In Matthew 19:9, Jesus clearly says that under the New Covenant there will be a return to the original creation intention of a lifelong marriage to one person.

In Mark 10:1112 and Luke 16:18, Jesus says that whoever divorces and remarries another commits adultery.

In both Mark and Luke, Jesus has definitively forbidden remarriage, not only for the divorcee, but for those who would dare to marry them, even if they themselves were never married before.

The Lord permits separation only for porneia, a Greek word that generally means unlawful sexual intercourse due to either blood relations (incest) or non-sacramental unions. The Lord does not permit divorce for moicheia (adultery).

In other words, porneia here refers to a union that was never a valid marriage from its inception. If you divorce and remarry, you're committing adultery, except in a case when that first union was not a real marriage.

Paul confirms this: "To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband) and that the husband should not divorce his wife" (1 Cor. 7:1011).

What are we to think about the widespread approbation of divorce in the Protestant world? My question is not primarily about judging the rectitude of allowing divorce despite the clear teaching of Jesus. It's about how unmoored beliefs and teachings can become from what is a very clear and direct teaching by the Son of God himself when the paradigm is "every man and his Bible a Pope" approach to determining dogma and doctrine is the rule. It's simply nonsensical if we want clear understanding and teaching on the cardinal matters. Without a divinely protected authority it simply cannot exist.

This is why it's such a paradox to me that the Protestant belief system founded on Sola Scriptura rejects the very thing that gives credence to its foundation.

I fully expect that none of that will resonate with you or any other Protestants who read it. Ok, fine. I have droned on about it more than enough.

Peace and blessings! I pray that the Spirit of Truth will flood into all our hearts and lead us to our heavenly home.
10andBOUNCE
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I think you are hitting the nail on the head as it relates to divorce and the idea that it is quite widespread in the evangelical world. I think it is horrible and is a major problem where protestant churches have been very soft. You are right to call out the hypocrisy of Bible beaters who don't follow what the Bible actually teaches. There are plenty of other examples in this same vein. More like Sola selective Scriptura maybe?
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10andBOUNCE said:

I think you are hitting the nail on the head as it relates to divorce and the idea that it is quite widespread in the evangelical world. I think it is horrible and is a major problem where protestant churches have been very soft. You are right to call out the hypocrisy of Bible beaters who don't follow what the Bible actually teaches. There are plenty of other examples in this same vein. More like Sola selective Scriptura maybe?


Indeed. Thanks again for your reply.

dermdoc
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10andBOUNCE said:

I think you are hitting the nail on the head as it relates to divorce and the idea that it is quite widespread in the evangelical world. I think it is horrible and is a major problem where protestant churches have been very soft. You are right to call out the hypocrisy of Bible beaters who don't follow what the Bible actually teaches. There are plenty of other examples in this same vein. More like Sola selective Scriptura maybe?

I agree on the divorce thing.
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Howdy, it is me!
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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

10andBOUNCE said:

And I appreciate your opinion. And I can appeal to the idea that it is not verbatim giving clear instruction and guidance regarding the sole authority of Scripture. But I also do think you can apply these general concepts and ideas within reason and come to the conclusion that it makes the most sense to never stray outside the bounds of what Scripture says. I would much rather aim to stay within Scripture at all times, otherwise you are running the risk of straying outside of it with subjection to more man centered ideas.


Fair enough. I appreciate your reasoned response. Thank you.

I agree that doctrine and dogma absolutely cannot be contrary to what scripture teaches. But scripture can be read and interpreted in many divergent ways, so what point can be made by saying doctrine cannot stray outside the bounds of scripture without simultaneously saying "… as interpreted by me/my tradition/my favorite pastor under aegis of Sola Scriptura"?

As you well know Scripture is not some monolithic set of unambiguous prescriptions and prohibitions. It's a multiverse of different kinds of writings from different cultures and times that all have different ways of speaking to us. Surely we agree about that, right?

Scripture can be understood literally (the author's intention), allegorically (the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs; typology), morally (ethical and spiritual guidance) and anagogically (where am I going? what is my destiny?).

Moreover, silence is equally not a prohibition. It's a blank page that the church completes under the guidance of Sacred Tradition and apostolic guidance and divine protection from error. That is precisely how we as disciples of Jesus Christ obtained the canon of scripture. No Sacred Tradition and divinely protected authority to declare what is sacred and true = no reliable canon. It simply is historical fact.

Question: what about divorce? The Incarnate Son of God clearly and unambiguously prohibited divorce as recorded in scripture. In Matthew 5:27-32 we see that divorce and remarriage is prohibited. Jesus says: "27You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. 31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity,* makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

By using the phrases "it was also said" and "but I say to you," Jesus is contrasting His teaching with what the Law said, not simply clarifying it. Consequently, He is prohibiting divorce and remarriage entirely, because it was that way from the beginning.

In Matthew 19:39, Jesus clearly says that under the New Covenant there will be a return to the original creation intention of a lifelong marriage to one person.

In Mark 10:1112 and Luke 16:18, Jesus says that whoever divorces and remarries another commits adultery.

In both Mark and Luke, Jesus has definitively forbidden remarriage, not only for the divorcee, but for those who would dare to marry them, even if they themselves were never married before.

The Lord permits separation only for porneia, a Greek word that generally means unlawful sexual intercourse due to either blood relations (incest) or non-sacramental unions. The Lord does not permit divorce for moicheia (adultery).

In other words, porneia here refers to a union that was never a valid marriage from its inception. If you divorce and remarry, you're committing adultery, except in a case when that first union was not a real marriage.

Paul confirms this: "To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband) and that the husband should not divorce his wife" (1 Cor. 7:1011).

What are we to think about the widespread approbation of divorce in the Protestant world? My question is not primarily about judging the rectitude of allowing divorce despite the clear teaching of Jesus. It's about how unmoored beliefs and teachings can become from what is a very clear and direct teaching by the Son of God himself when the paradigm is "every man and his Bible a Pope" approach to determining dogma and doctrine is the rule. It's simply nonsensical if we want clear understanding and teaching on the cardinal matters. Without a divinely protected authority it simply cannot exist.

This is why it's such a paradox to me that the Protestant belief system founded on Sola Scriptura rejects the very thing that gives credence to its foundation.

I fully expect that none of that will resonate with you or any other Protestants who read it. Ok, fine. I have droned on about it more than enough.

Peace and blessings! I pray that the Spirit of Truth will flood into all our hearts and lead us to our heavenly home.


You said Matthew 19:39 - which verse did you intend?

I don't know why Protestants support second marriages. We should be declining invitations to most of those with the same conviction as we would decline an invitation to a homosexual wedding.
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Howdy, it is me! said:

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

10andBOUNCE said:

And I appreciate your opinion. And I can appeal to the idea that it is not verbatim giving clear instruction and guidance regarding the sole authority of Scripture. But I also do think you can apply these general concepts and ideas within reason and come to the conclusion that it makes the most sense to never stray outside the bounds of what Scripture says. I would much rather aim to stay within Scripture at all times, otherwise you are running the risk of straying outside of it with subjection to more man centered ideas.


Fair enough. I appreciate your reasoned response. Thank you.

I agree that doctrine and dogma absolutely cannot be contrary to what scripture teaches. But scripture can be read and interpreted in many divergent ways, so what point can be made by saying doctrine cannot stray outside the bounds of scripture without simultaneously saying "… as interpreted by me/my tradition/my favorite pastor under aegis of Sola Scriptura"?

As you well know Scripture is not some monolithic set of unambiguous prescriptions and prohibitions. It's a multiverse of different kinds of writings from different cultures and times that all have different ways of speaking to us. Surely we agree about that, right?

Scripture can be understood literally (the author's intention), allegorically (the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs; typology), morally (ethical and spiritual guidance) and anagogically (where am I going? what is my destiny?).

Moreover, silence is equally not a prohibition. It's a blank page that the church completes under the guidance of Sacred Tradition and apostolic guidance and divine protection from error. That is precisely how we as disciples of Jesus Christ obtained the canon of scripture. No Sacred Tradition and divinely protected authority to declare what is sacred and true = no reliable canon. It simply is historical fact.

Question: what about divorce? The Incarnate Son of God clearly and unambiguously prohibited divorce as recorded in scripture. In Matthew 5:27-32 we see that divorce and remarriage is prohibited. Jesus says: "27You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. 31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity,* makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

By using the phrases "it was also said" and "but I say to you," Jesus is contrasting His teaching with what the Law said, not simply clarifying it. Consequently, He is prohibiting divorce and remarriage entirely, because it was that way from the beginning.

In Matthew 19:9, Jesus clearly says that under the New Covenant there will be a return to the original creation intention of a lifelong marriage to one person.

In Mark 10:1112 and Luke 16:18, Jesus says that whoever divorces and remarries another commits adultery.

In both Mark and Luke, Jesus has definitively forbidden remarriage, not only for the divorcee, but for those who would dare to marry them, even if they themselves were never married before.

The Lord permits separation only for porneia, a Greek word that generally means unlawful sexual intercourse due to either blood relations (incest) or non-sacramental unions. The Lord does not permit divorce for moicheia (adultery).

In other words, porneia here refers to a union that was never a valid marriage from its inception. If you divorce and remarry, you're committing adultery, except in a case when that first union was not a real marriage.

Paul confirms this: "To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband) and that the husband should not divorce his wife" (1 Cor. 7:1011).

What are we to think about the widespread approbation of divorce in the Protestant world? My question is not primarily about judging the rectitude of allowing divorce despite the clear teaching of Jesus. It's about how unmoored beliefs and teachings can become from what is a very clear and direct teaching by the Son of God himself when the paradigm is "every man and his Bible a Pope" approach to determining dogma and doctrine is the rule. It's simply nonsensical if we want clear understanding and teaching on the cardinal matters. Without a divinely protected authority it simply cannot exist.

This is why it's such a paradox to me that the Protestant belief system founded on Sola Scriptura rejects the very thing that gives credence to its foundation.

I fully expect that none of that will resonate with you or any other Protestants who read it. Ok, fine. I have droned on about it more than enough.

Peace and blessings! I pray that the Spirit of Truth will flood into all our hearts and lead us to our heavenly home.


You said Matthew 19:39 - which verse did you intend?

I don't know why Protestants support second marriages. We should be declining invitations to most of those with the same conviction as we would decline an invitation to a homosexual wedding.


My bad - Matthew 19:9!

And I think your reasoning on second marriages is sound.
dermdoc
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To get back to the OP, I am re reading the linked book and it is really good.





Here is an excerpt that reads like some of my posts on here.
I am not good at this so read the bottom page first then the middle then the top.
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dermdoc
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And I realize nobody on here will probably read my three page excerpt but worth a try. I am a persistent heretic.
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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

10andBOUNCE said:

And I appreciate your opinion. And I can appeal to the idea that it is not verbatim giving clear instruction and guidance regarding the sole authority of Scripture. But I also do think you can apply these general concepts and ideas within reason and come to the conclusion that it makes the most sense to never stray outside the bounds of what Scripture says. I would much rather aim to stay within Scripture at all times, otherwise you are running the risk of straying outside of it with subjection to more man centered ideas.


Fair enough. I appreciate your reasoned response. Thank you.

I agree that doctrine and dogma absolutely cannot be contrary to what scripture teaches. But scripture can be read and interpreted in many divergent ways, so what point can be made by saying doctrine cannot stray outside the bounds of scripture without simultaneously saying "… as interpreted by me/my tradition/my favorite pastor under aegis of Sola Scriptura"?

As you well know Scripture is not some monolithic set of unambiguous prescriptions and prohibitions. It's a multiverse of different kinds of writings from different cultures and times that all have different ways of speaking to us. Surely we agree about that, right?

Scripture can be understood literally (the author's intention), allegorically (the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs; typology), morally (ethical and spiritual guidance) and anagogically (where am I going? what is my destiny?).

Moreover, silence is equally not a prohibition. It's a blank page that the church completes under the guidance of Sacred Tradition and apostolic guidance and divine protection from error. That is precisely how we as disciples of Jesus Christ obtained the canon of scripture. No Sacred Tradition and divinely protected authority to declare what is sacred and true = no reliable canon. It simply is historical fact.

Question: what about divorce? The Incarnate Son of God clearly and unambiguously prohibited divorce as recorded in scripture. In Matthew 5:27-32 we see that divorce and remarriage is prohibited. Jesus says: "27You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. 31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32 But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity,* makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

By using the phrases "it was also said" and "but I say to you," Jesus is contrasting His teaching with what the Law said, not simply clarifying it. Consequently, He is prohibiting divorce and remarriage entirely, because it was that way from the beginning.

In Matthew 19:9, Jesus clearly says that under the New Covenant there will be a return to the original creation intention of a lifelong marriage to one person.

In Mark 10:1112 and Luke 16:18, Jesus says that whoever divorces and remarries another commits adultery.

In both Mark and Luke, Jesus has definitively forbidden remarriage, not only for the divorcee, but for those who would dare to marry them, even if they themselves were never married before.

The Lord permits separation only for porneia, a Greek word that generally means unlawful sexual intercourse due to either blood relations (incest) or non-sacramental unions. The Lord does not permit divorce for moicheia (adultery).

In other words, porneia here refers to a union that was never a valid marriage from its inception. If you divorce and remarry, you're committing adultery, except in a case when that first union was not a real marriage.

Paul confirms this: "To the married I give charge, not I but the Lord, that the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, let her remain single or else be reconciled to her husband) and that the husband should not divorce his wife" (1 Cor. 7:1011).

What are we to think about the widespread approbation of divorce in the Protestant world? My question is not primarily about judging the rectitude of allowing divorce despite the clear teaching of Jesus. It's about how unmoored beliefs and teachings can become from what is a very clear and direct teaching by the Son of God himself when the paradigm is "every man and his Bible a Pope" approach to determining dogma and doctrine is the rule. It's simply nonsensical if we want clear understanding and teaching on the cardinal matters. Without a divinely protected authority it simply cannot exist.

This is why it's such a paradox to me that the Protestant belief system founded on Sola Scriptura rejects the very thing that gives credence to its foundation.

I fully expect that none of that will resonate with you or any other Protestants who read it. Ok, fine. I have droned on about it more than enough.

Peace and blessings! I pray that the Spirit of Truth will flood into all our hearts and lead us to our heavenly home.


You said Matthew 19:39 - which verse did you intend?

I don't know why Protestants support second marriages. We should be declining invitations to most of those with the same conviction as we would decline an invitation to a homosexual wedding.


My bad - Matthew 19:9!

And I think your reasoning on second marriages is sound.


Ok, I should have easily found that, haha. Thanks!
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dermdoc said:

And I realize nobody on here will probably read my three page excerpt but worth a try. I am a persistent heretic.


I don't have a comment right now but I did read them.
dermdoc
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Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

And I realize nobody on here will probably read my three page excerpt but worth a try. I am a persistent heretic.


I don't have a comment right now but I did read them.

Thanks.
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AgLiving06
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dermdoc said:

AgLiving06 said:

dermdoc said:

AgLiving06 said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

dermdoc said:

Howdy, it is me! said:

AgLiving06 said:

dermdoc said:

10andBOUNCE said:

If you agree then we disagree with what the word "sovereign" means.

I am borrowing this from elsewhere but think its sums it up nicely.

God's sovereignty is His absolute, supreme, and independent right and power to govern all things according to His own wise and holy will, for His own glory.


I completely agree with that. In my opinion, it strengthens God's sovereignty if He allows us free will. And also show His love. Why would He create robots that He completely controlled?


But you see the problem with claiming we have free will right?

To claim we truly have free will is to claim there is some sort of "good" that exists outside of God.




Even in the non-Calvinistic view of free will, it still lands with God at the end of the day. Something makes a person choose God - nature, circumstances… - of which God is ultimately in control of. And He still chooses to create the people He knows won't choose Him.

I think this version of free will just makes people feel better. There is a very high view of man, making it about us, when really it is all about God, about His glory. And He will order things in whichever way brings Him the most.

Disagree completely on your last paragraph. Gospel means good news. To me it is a higher view of God that He loves us enough to give us free will to reject or choose Him. Complete sovereignty without tyranny. Love without oppression.

Question, do you believe God preordaining people He created to eternal torment is for His glory?


I can respect that. He still knows our fate before He creates us.

I think how 10 put things is reasonable. It's all for His glory, that's all I know for sure. I'll never fully understand how and why He does things the way He does.

And He desires all men to be saved.


He does…and yet, they aren't.

Of course, you think they will be; we've got nowhere to go from here.



Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?


Think about how awful a God it is you've created though.

We deal with death, sin, pain, hurt, etc everyday.

Under what you've premised, that's a pretty cruel God because he obviously "desires" that we deal with that.

Because if he didn't desire that, what thwarts him?





Man, I do not think that and have no idea how you got that from what I posted. There is a huge difference between God desiring everyone be saved(which is Scripture) and God desires harm on us. That would make Gid a sinner in my mind. Just like double predestination does.
We live in a fallen world because of sin. Why God allows pain, I have no idea except for our own good and growth. But I certainly don't think He desires us to have pain.


I got there because you're constantly creating this strawman to justify why universalism is representative of the only "good" god.

You continually start with a premise that "god desires x" and so therefore it MUST happen. As you said...who could thwart God.

That reasoning is faulty, but I showed the logical end of it. If anything happens, even the bad stuff, clearly God "desires" it. What could be the other explanation? We can't say that God desires us not to sin, because every person born of a woman has sinned. So God clearly doesn't desire us to be sinless. Which of course then raises the question of why doesn't he just make us sinless? Life would be so much easier.

So the problem is your definition of "desire." You've constructed it to fit your desired outcome as opposed to what Scripture says.

Disagree. If there is free will, God can desire anything and man can do the opposite.


IF this is the case, this statement:

"Sure we do. If God is sovereign and desires all men to be saved, what thwarts God?" is either not true on your part.

Or maybe you're saying that God saves man, but man can thwart God. that's at least more palatable.
 
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