We aren't remotely as bad as Russia

HowdyTexasAggies said:

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Hullabaloonatic said:

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HowdyTexasAggies said:

---

Hullabaloonatic said:

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HowdyTexasAggies said:

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Hullabaloonatic said:

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nortex97 said:

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Yes, it all works out splendidly just like that in pattern and practice, as Mr. Stewart so eloquently laid out.

I can’t believe this is real

Millions of US Taxpayer dollars are being sent by USAID to a British Politician turned Yale Professors wife’s NGO called ‘Turquoise Mountain Foundation’

“The Turquoise Mountain Foundation exists to teach Afghani peasants about degenerate modern art” pic.twitter.com/0jG2WCH9va

— Wall Street Apes (@WallStreetApes) February 18, 2025

---

You're going to make me do your homework for you? Pro tip: if your news source is twitter, you're being deliberately misinformed.

This whole thing is a soup of non sense, so i'll try to untangle the brain worm that twitter dropped in your mind.

Quote:

---

"The Turqoise Mountain Foundation exists to teach Afghani peasants about degenerate modern art"

---

A 10 second google search can take you to the original USAID Fact Sheet for the Turquoise Mountain Foundation (here). The contract, which was granted well before Rory Stewart even met Shoshana Stewart (she was married to someone else), in 2008. She has been the CEO of the charity organization for almost 20 years and the objectives of the project was to provide education and training, economic opportunities, and livelihoods for Afghans. Specifically, 1) build economic and trade opportunities for Afghans through the economic, social and cultural regeneration of Murad Khane, a traditional commercial and craft neighborhood in the center of Kabul's Old City; 2) provide traditional craft education through the Turquoise Mountain Institute for Afghan Arts and Architecture; 3) develop a market for Afghan crafts domestically and internationally through business mentoring, marketing and sales support. The list of accomplishments:

• Established an internationally recognized brand, profiled in over 100 international publications, that sold almost $3 million worth of Afghan crafts to markets in Asia, Europe, North America and the Middle East
• Enhanced Afghanistan's reputation as a source of high-quality products
• Provided direct education, employment and healthcare services to 64,246 Afghans, and indirectly reached approximately over 300,000 beneficiaries
• Provided supplementary educationincluding art and language classes to a total of 122 children (68 boys and 54 girls) between the ages of five and 14
• Graduated 144 students (107 male and 37 female) from the Turquoise Mountain Institute over four years, of whom 24 percent owned their own craft businesses, 52 percent worked in craft-related employment, 13 percent were pursuing further studies, and 11 percent were not in formal employment

Just read the list of accomplishments and tell me why none of these were mentioned? Perhaps it doesn't fit the narrative?

This also had the intended objective of westernizing Afghani citizens (a worthwhile objective, no?). That 30 second clip regarding the 'toilet art' was snipped from a 2015 documentary "Bitter Lake." While absurd on its face, you can google Marcel Duchamp and see the intended purpose of the exhibit (which was in the early 1900s) was intended to be farcical. Out of context, it simply looks bizarre, but when teaching history of western art, the "Fountain" is historically relevant because of the explicit absurdity. It's just a single touchstone however. That twitter clip, implying the entire purpose of the project is to teach 'toilet art' to Afghani peasants (a crude pejorative meant to 'other' these people) is simply a lie.

Stop getting your news from twitter. Possess just the slightest amount of skepticism and do even a miniscule amount of fact checking before sharing stuff like this. Musk and Trump are firing off lie after lie after lie and you can't simply accept them at face value.

---

I don't give a crap what they are working on or what BS accomplishments they fabricate. The fact is our country is bankrupt and shouldn't be spending a dime on waste like this. If you want to send your own money to this fine. However, I and many other are stick and tired of paying for your stupid *****

---

Fabricate? These USAID projects are audited by independent PA firms on a yearly basis. And this aid was budgeted and approved by Congress. If you have an issue with the funding of any specific USAID contract, contact your representative and voice your opinion.

---

I don't have to call anyone; Trump is doing it for me. The auditors are frauds as well, that's part of how they get away with it. Congress is complicit and Trump is fixing that as well. Glad you are ok with our country being bankrupt. Also, you must not pay any taxes.

---

lol gotcha. Independent accounting firms are frauds. Humanitarian workers are frauds. Only Trump, the man who literally calls himself King, is honest.

And thanks to Trump, I will be paying less taxes! Huzzah!

---

It's clear you have no idea how fraud occurs. You do realize that fraud occurs despite the involvement of independent auditors? I suggest you read up on topics prior to posting your stupid liberal feels.

---

I'm a CPA who went to school in the wake of Enron and the passing of Sarbanes Oxley. It's literally my profession to prevent and detect fraud.

titan said:

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aTmAg said:

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titan said:

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Teslag said:

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rgag12 said:

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GAC06 said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Teslag said:

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Agreed. A lot of the pro Russian posters here always casually hand wave away the pure hatred many Ukrainians have for Russians. **** like that isn't forgotten.

---

There are zero pro Russian posters on this board.

Stop with this silly strawman and false dichotomy homie. You are better then that.

---

There are quite a few pro Russian posters on this site.

---

Not pro-Ukrainian does not equal pro-Russian.
The number of pro-Russian posters is very small. The number of not pro-Ukrainian posters and Americans in general grows everyday.

---

If someone only blames one side while completely excusing the other they are most definitely pro one side.

---

Frankly, that's a fair judgement. If you entirely excuse one side and go against the other -- like our MSM does against Russia -- that's a pro -stance. Those that blame Zelensky as just profit driven --that is also a pro stance.

The argument it is TWO corrupt countries fighting an installment of a conflict that like some Mideast ones is centuries old, that is not `pro' one or the other.

---

Just because Ukraine was corrupt does not mean that they are in any way blameworthy for being invaded. The US has proven to be corrupt as hell too, and if Mexico invaded us, then they too would be in the wrong. Even if Russian was as virtuous and clean as the wind driven snow, they would be 100% in the wrong for invading Ukraine.

This war is 100% on Russia.

---

You are giving a pass to our interference. Just because we don't like how someone chose to solve a problem doesn't mean it was 100% their doing. We are increasingly considering overt action in Mexico -- because we are trying to solve a problem created by more than one entity, one of them overseas.

You can't be the moderator of negotiations if you take the stance the blame is 100% on one side when it is not. If you do that, you need to have another nation take over the negotiations.

---

What interference are you talking about? Us providing weapons to Ukraine? If so then that happened BECAUSE Russia invaded. It's still 100% Russia fault for invading.

If you are talking about us interfering in Russia's election interference than that STILL doesn't justify invasion. If Columbia interfered in a Mexican election, then that wouldn't give us the right to unilaterally invade Mexico.

And are you referring to an INVASION as "solving a problem"? If so, then... really?

UntoldSpirit said:

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JayM said:

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Eliminatus said:

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Eliminatus said:

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Captain Pablo said:

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halfastros81 said:

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He's posturing to get them to agree to a peace deal imo. It doesn't make it any less cringy but there is a method to his madness.

---

I think this is it. Twisting Ukraine's arm

---

About a week ago, I might have agreed if I were looking at it optimistically.

Now though, with ALL the messaging from him and his cabinet combined, I am not nearly so sure. I have reached a point now that I think he is surrounded by by those in his ear who do fully believe all the Russian propaganda and mixed with his own weird fascination with Putin over the years (have thought this about him for years now even before his current term) and I can see this just being groundwork to step away from Europe all together. Which anyone above room temp IQ knows is not great IMO.

Orrrrr.....it can be 10D chess. I don't know. But doesn't look like it so far to me. Closed room negotiations with Russia over Ukraine is pretty black and white to the world.

---

Good Lord. Yeah, no mistaking any chess here. Trump took in the propaganda hook, line, and sinker.

pic.twitter.com/PMcrOwXejI

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) February 19, 2025

The money isn't missing, the 4% approval rating is a f'ing lie (such am egregious lie it beggars belief in itself) slipped to him by the closed door echo chambers going on in SA right now, and the election thing is such a stupid non point to Ukrainians right now. By their own polling mind you. A fair and open election will be impossible right now, period and they don't care enough to do it when invaders are still marching on their land. Russia is the one who advanced that so that should tell you all about the motives right there. Russia, who hasn't had a fair and open election in 20+ years and openly kill adversaries to Putin to the point they literally do not even attempt to disguise it anymore.

Trump is a f'ing idiot in this regard and is fumbling this beyond all belief. He got played like a damn fiddle and it's damned embarrassing to see. There are arguable reasons to not support Ukraine. These aren't it.

---

Agreed. Trump is showing his the job is too much to handle when he has to disparage Zelenskyy and the Ukrainians at a time when their future is in doubt. What polling places are secure enough for voting? That is which places are secure from artillery and missiles and that kind of stuff? The Ukrainians have had their country pounded to powers. It is not their fault. If he keeps this stuff up, I'd expect Rubio and others to resign in protest. He would then call Rubio names.

---

There is one guy Trump has to convince in order to stop this war. He has a huge nuclear arsenal and a very big country. He is also a ruthless tyrant If Trump wants concessions and an end to the conflict, there is really only one guy he has to appease, but Putin has leverage. Zelenskyy has nothing, except our good will. It seems to me that Trump's statements make more sense with that understanding, and also with the understanding that Trump wants repayment for the huge outlays provided, and for which there has been little accounting.

In other words, Trump sucking up to Putin makes perfect sense, given our goals.

---

I've heard another take and that is if the Ukrainians refuse to take Trump's deal which is an exclusive deal for rare earths, Trump can blame them for his failure to bring about a peace deal. There may be some truth to that. I've never seen a president, and I've seen a few, act in the manner as Trump has. I'll convey the qualifying sentence and that is I've voted for him in two primaries and three presidential elections. But I have to shake my head with regard to his very public, mercurial temperament with regards to the leaders of a sovereign country under existential threat. But that's what we voted for.

BusterAg said:

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GAC06 said:

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BusterAg said:

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Rossticus said:

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Don't forget that Putin has now literally put nukes in Belarus. Does that mean that Poland and NATO would be justified in and should invade Belarus? I mean, NUKES AT NATO BORDERS!

NATO is only a threat to Russia if Russia takes action against a NATO country. This is why Ukraine in NATO is a "threat". Not because it's an inherent existential threat to Russia but because it's a threat to prevent Russia from screwing with Ukraine and molding them into Belarus.

---

Putin can launch Nukes from Siberia and hit Washington DC.

It's not about where nukes are. It's about strategic defense alliances.

If Russia stated that any defense of the remainder of Ukraine would result in nuclear war, that would be a problem.

---

Yet you just said:

"NATO at Russia's door is the same thing as first strike missiles in Cuba. Super easy to Nuke Russia from Poland. A NATO country on Russia's doorstep gives NATO the obligation to Nuke Russia for any conflict between Ukraine and Russia. If a crazy Ukrainian dictator rises to power and starts aggression against Russia, we are looking at a real WWIII scenario.

NATO in Ukraine is not just similar to nukes in Cuba, it is almost exactly the same thing."

---

My positions are not in conflict with eachother. I don't know why you can't see that.

---

Do you understand why liquid fueled missiles vs solid fueled missiles was THE crucial point in that whole thing?

Hullabaloonatic said:

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HowdyTexasAggies said:

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Hullabaloonatic said:

---

HowdyTexasAggies said:

---

Hullabaloonatic said:

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HowdyTexasAggies said:

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Hullabaloonatic said:

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nortex97 said:

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Yes, it all works out splendidly just like that in pattern and practice, as Mr. Stewart so eloquently laid out.

I can’t believe this is real

Millions of US Taxpayer dollars are being sent by USAID to a British Politician turned Yale Professors wife’s NGO called ‘Turquoise Mountain Foundation’

“The Turquoise Mountain Foundation exists to teach Afghani peasants about degenerate modern art” pic.twitter.com/0jG2WCH9va

— Wall Street Apes (@WallStreetApes) February 18, 2025

---

You're going to make me do your homework for you? Pro tip: if your news source is twitter, you're being deliberately misinformed.

This whole thing is a soup of non sense, so i'll try to untangle the brain worm that twitter dropped in your mind.

Quote:

---

"The Turqoise Mountain Foundation exists to teach Afghani peasants about degenerate modern art"

---

A 10 second google search can take you to the original USAID Fact Sheet for the Turquoise Mountain Foundation (here). The contract, which was granted well before Rory Stewart even met Shoshana Stewart (she was married to someone else), in 2008. She has been the CEO of the charity organization for almost 20 years and the objectives of the project was to provide education and training, economic opportunities, and livelihoods for Afghans. Specifically, 1) build economic and trade opportunities for Afghans through the economic, social and cultural regeneration of Murad Khane, a traditional commercial and craft neighborhood in the center of Kabul's Old City; 2) provide traditional craft education through the Turquoise Mountain Institute for Afghan Arts and Architecture; 3) develop a market for Afghan crafts domestically and internationally through business mentoring, marketing and sales support. The list of accomplishments:

• Established an internationally recognized brand, profiled in over 100 international publications, that sold almost $3 million worth of Afghan crafts to markets in Asia, Europe, North America and the Middle East
• Enhanced Afghanistan's reputation as a source of high-quality products
• Provided direct education, employment and healthcare services to 64,246 Afghans, and indirectly reached approximately over 300,000 beneficiaries
• Provided supplementary educationincluding art and language classes to a total of 122 children (68 boys and 54 girls) between the ages of five and 14
• Graduated 144 students (107 male and 37 female) from the Turquoise Mountain Institute over four years, of whom 24 percent owned their own craft businesses, 52 percent worked in craft-related employment, 13 percent were pursuing further studies, and 11 percent were not in formal employment

Just read the list of accomplishments and tell me why none of these were mentioned? Perhaps it doesn't fit the narrative?

This also had the intended objective of westernizing Afghani citizens (a worthwhile objective, no?). That 30 second clip regarding the 'toilet art' was snipped from a 2015 documentary "Bitter Lake." While absurd on its face, you can google Marcel Duchamp and see the intended purpose of the exhibit (which was in the early 1900s) was intended to be farcical. Out of context, it simply looks bizarre, but when teaching history of western art, the "Fountain" is historically relevant because of the explicit absurdity. It's just a single touchstone however. That twitter clip, implying the entire purpose of the project is to teach 'toilet art' to Afghani peasants (a crude pejorative meant to 'other' these people) is simply a lie.

Stop getting your news from twitter. Possess just the slightest amount of skepticism and do even a miniscule amount of fact checking before sharing stuff like this. Musk and Trump are firing off lie after lie after lie and you can't simply accept them at face value.

---

I don't give a crap what they are working on or what BS accomplishments they fabricate. The fact is our country is bankrupt and shouldn't be spending a dime on waste like this. If you want to send your own money to this fine. However, I and many other are stick and tired of paying for your stupid *****

---

Fabricate? These USAID projects are audited by independent PA firms on a yearly basis. And this aid was budgeted and approved by Congress. If you have an issue with the funding of any specific USAID contract, contact your representative and voice your opinion.

---

I don't have to call anyone; Trump is doing it for me. The auditors are frauds as well, that's part of how they get away with it. Congress is complicit and Trump is fixing that as well. Glad you are ok with our country being bankrupt. Also, you must not pay any taxes.

---

lol gotcha. Independent accounting firms are frauds. Humanitarian workers are frauds. Only Trump, the man who literally calls himself King, is honest.

And thanks to Trump, I will be paying less taxes! Huzzah!

---

It's clear you have no idea how fraud occurs. You do realize that fraud occurs despite the involvement of independent auditors? I suggest you read up on topics prior to posting your stupid liberal feels.

---

I'm a CPA who went to school in the wake of Enron and the passing of Sarbanes Oxley. It's literally my profession to prevent and detect fraud.

---

LOL, yea right. You and your colleagues suck at fraud prevention, because it occurs all the time, directly under your nose. And, if what you say is true, then you the perfect example of someone that would be complicit.

Silent For Too Long said:

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You clearly know nothing about the USAID topic and are just parroting the talking points of the guilty parties whose hands were caught in the cookie jar.

It's a state crafting operation with literally billions of dollars in grift. You are simping for some of the most corrupt people in American history. It's really, really pathetic.

---

I'm simping for corruption?! As opposed to you?! Like...there are so many things that are corrupt about Donald Trump...I just can't. $Trump Coin is the equivalent of issuing an account number for a swiss bank account telling foreign adversaries they can deposit funds into that account anonymously and then show Trump the receipts privately that they contributed. It is the most brazen act of corruption of the modern presidency.

Street Fighter said:

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rgvag11 said:

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You don't invade another sovereign nation.

---

The US has done that several times over the last 60 years, I don't care if all of them have not been publicized.

Not justifying Russia, just pointing out the we are just a f'ng bad.

---

Which countries have we invaded/destroyed for the sole purpose of permanently annexing them? Did I miss us launching unprovoked invasions into Canada or Mexico?

aTmAg said:

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titan said:

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aTmAg said:

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titan said:

---

Teslag said:

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rgag12 said:

---

GAC06 said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Agreed. A lot of the pro Russian posters here always casually hand wave away the pure hatred many Ukrainians have for Russians. **** like that isn't forgotten.

---

There are zero pro Russian posters on this board.

Stop with this silly strawman and false dichotomy homie. You are better then that.

---

There are quite a few pro Russian posters on this site.

---

Not pro-Ukrainian does not equal pro-Russian.
The number of pro-Russian posters is very small. The number of not pro-Ukrainian posters and Americans in general grows everyday.

---

If someone only blames one side while completely excusing the other they are most definitely pro one side.

---

Frankly, that's a fair judgement. If you entirely excuse one side and go against the other -- like our MSM does against Russia -- that's a pro -stance. Those that blame Zelensky as just profit driven --that is also a pro stance.

The argument it is TWO corrupt countries fighting an installment of a conflict that like some Mideast ones is centuries old, that is not `pro' one or the other.

---

Just because Ukraine was corrupt does not mean that they are in any way blameworthy for being invaded. The US has proven to be corrupt as hell too, and if Mexico invaded us, then they too would be in the wrong. Even if Russian was as virtuous and clean as the wind driven snow, they would be 100% in the wrong for invading Ukraine.

This war is 100% on Russia.

---

You are giving a pass to our interference. Just because we don't like how someone chose to solve a problem doesn't mean it was 100% their doing. We are increasingly considering overt action in Mexico -- because we are trying to solve a problem created by more than one entity, one of them overseas.

You can't be the moderator of negotiations if you take the stance the blame is 100% on one side when it is not. If you do that, you need to have another nation take over the negotiations.

---

What interference are you talking about? Us providing weapons to Ukraine? If so then that happened BECAUSE Russia invaded. It's still 100% Russia fault for invading.

If you are talking about us interfering in Russia's election interference than that STILL doesn't justify invasion. If Columbia interfered in a Mexican election, then that wouldn't give us the right to unilaterally invade Mexico.

And are you referring to an INVASION as "solving a problem"? If so, then... really?

---

You are still approaching this in terms of rights and shoulds and justifies. When you are trying to undo wars or decide if you want to fight one, those are not relevant. You have to deal with the foe as they are.

Many of the values that mean so much to us mean nothing in the Middle East. You couldn't approach that emotionally either. I am not sure what your point is?

Quote:

---

I'm a CPA who went to school in the wake of Enron and the passing of Sarbanes Oxley. It's literally my profession to prevent and detect fraud.

---

I suspect, then, you are very, very familiar with the differences between 'standard' audits and 'fraud' audits.

Moreover, when it comes to standard audits of 'public' agencies, low bidders and quick work seem to rule the day. As a result, disciplinary proceedings and malpractice suits against auditing firms are not unusual things.

Finally, this may be a red herring anyway. As I auditor I can give assurances that the F/S are fairly representing payments for nebulous items and for 'salaries' paid for overpaid individuals.

After all, in these situations, who is going to complain?

titan said:

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aTmAg said:

---

titan said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

titan said:

---

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Silent For Too Long said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Agreed. A lot of the pro Russian posters here always casually hand wave away the pure hatred many Ukrainians have for Russians. **** like that isn't forgotten.

---

There are zero pro Russian posters on this board.

Stop with this silly strawman and false dichotomy homie. You are better then that.

---

There are quite a few pro Russian posters on this site.

---

Not pro-Ukrainian does not equal pro-Russian.
The number of pro-Russian posters is very small. The number of not pro-Ukrainian posters and Americans in general grows everyday.

---

If someone only blames one side while completely excusing the other they are most definitely pro one side.

---

Frankly, that's a fair judgement. If you entirely excuse one side and go against the other -- like our MSM does against Russia -- that's a pro -stance. Those that blame Zelensky as just profit driven --that is also a pro stance.

The argument it is TWO corrupt countries fighting an installment of a conflict that like some Mideast ones is centuries old, that is not `pro' one or the other.

---

Just because Ukraine was corrupt does not mean that they are in any way blameworthy for being invaded. The US has proven to be corrupt as hell too, and if Mexico invaded us, then they too would be in the wrong. Even if Russian was as virtuous and clean as the wind driven snow, they would be 100% in the wrong for invading Ukraine.

This war is 100% on Russia.

---

You are giving a pass to our interference. Just because we don't like how someone chose to solve a problem doesn't mean it was 100% their doing. We are increasingly considering overt action in Mexico -- because we are trying to solve a problem created by more than one entity, one of them overseas.

You can't be the moderator of negotiations if you take the stance the blame is 100% on one side when it is not. If you do that, you need to have another nation take over the negotiations.

---

What interference are you talking about? Us providing weapons to Ukraine? If so then that happened BECAUSE Russia invaded. It's still 100% Russia fault for invading.

If you are talking about us interfering in Russia's election interference than that STILL doesn't justify invasion. If Columbia interfered in a Mexican election, then that wouldn't give us the right to unilaterally invade Mexico.

And are you referring to an INVASION as "solving a problem"? If so, then... really?

---

You are still approaching this in terms of rights and shoulds and justifies. When you are trying to undo wars or decide if you want to fight one, those are not relevant. You have to deal with the foe as they are.

Many of the values that mean so much to us mean nothing in the Middle East. You couldn't approach that emotionally either. I am not sure what your point is?

---

This thread is about "Trump saying Ukraine started the war". "Rights", "shoulds", and "justifies" are completely on topic.

aTmAg said:

---

titan said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

titan said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

titan said:

---

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Silent For Too Long said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Agreed. A lot of the pro Russian posters here always casually hand wave away the pure hatred many Ukrainians have for Russians. **** like that isn't forgotten.

---

There are zero pro Russian posters on this board.

Stop with this silly strawman and false dichotomy homie. You are better then that.

---

There are quite a few pro Russian posters on this site.

---

Not pro-Ukrainian does not equal pro-Russian.
The number of pro-Russian posters is very small. The number of not pro-Ukrainian posters and Americans in general grows everyday.

---

If someone only blames one side while completely excusing the other they are most definitely pro one side.

---

Frankly, that's a fair judgement. If you entirely excuse one side and go against the other -- like our MSM does against Russia -- that's a pro -stance. Those that blame Zelensky as just profit driven --that is also a pro stance.

The argument it is TWO corrupt countries fighting an installment of a conflict that like some Mideast ones is centuries old, that is not `pro' one or the other.

---

Just because Ukraine was corrupt does not mean that they are in any way blameworthy for being invaded. The US has proven to be corrupt as hell too, and if Mexico invaded us, then they too would be in the wrong. Even if Russian was as virtuous and clean as the wind driven snow, they would be 100% in the wrong for invading Ukraine.

This war is 100% on Russia.

---

You are giving a pass to our interference. Just because we don't like how someone chose to solve a problem doesn't mean it was 100% their doing. We are increasingly considering overt action in Mexico -- because we are trying to solve a problem created by more than one entity, one of them overseas.

You can't be the moderator of negotiations if you take the stance the blame is 100% on one side when it is not. If you do that, you need to have another nation take over the negotiations.

---

What interference are you talking about? Us providing weapons to Ukraine? If so then that happened BECAUSE Russia invaded. It's still 100% Russia fault for invading.

If you are talking about us interfering in Russia's election interference than that STILL doesn't justify invasion. If Columbia interfered in a Mexican election, then that wouldn't give us the right to unilaterally invade Mexico.

And are you referring to an INVASION as "solving a problem"? If so, then... really?

---

You are still approaching this in terms of rights and shoulds and justifies. When you are trying to undo wars or decide if you want to fight one, those are not relevant. You have to deal with the foe as they are.

Many of the values that mean so much to us mean nothing in the Middle East. You couldn't approach that emotionally either. I am not sure what your point is?

---

This thread is about "Trump saying Ukraine started the war". "Rights", "shoulds", and "justifies" are completely on topic.

---

Oh in the overall thread, perhaps. That post was referring to a specific thing. In fact, its not even addressing what Trump said. Just the general impasse itself which has some resemblance to the disconnect trying to solve an Iran-Iraq fight.

titan said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

titan said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

titan said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

titan said:

---

Teslag said:

---

rgag12 said:

---

GAC06 said:

---

Silent For Too Long said:

---

Teslag said:

---

Agreed. A lot of the pro Russian posters here always casually hand wave away the pure hatred many Ukrainians have for Russians. **** like that isn't forgotten.

---

There are zero pro Russian posters on this board.

Stop with this silly strawman and false dichotomy homie. You are better then that.

---

There are quite a few pro Russian posters on this site.

---

Not pro-Ukrainian does not equal pro-Russian.
The number of pro-Russian posters is very small. The number of not pro-Ukrainian posters and Americans in general grows everyday.

---

If someone only blames one side while completely excusing the other they are most definitely pro one side.

---

Frankly, that's a fair judgement. If you entirely excuse one side and go against the other -- like our MSM does against Russia -- that's a pro -stance. Those that blame Zelensky as just profit driven --that is also a pro stance.

The argument it is TWO corrupt countries fighting an installment of a conflict that like some Mideast ones is centuries old, that is not `pro' one or the other.

---

Just because Ukraine was corrupt does not mean that they are in any way blameworthy for being invaded. The US has proven to be corrupt as hell too, and if Mexico invaded us, then they too would be in the wrong. Even if Russian was as virtuous and clean as the wind driven snow, they would be 100% in the wrong for invading Ukraine.

This war is 100% on Russia.

---

You are giving a pass to our interference. Just because we don't like how someone chose to solve a problem doesn't mean it was 100% their doing. We are increasingly considering overt action in Mexico -- because we are trying to solve a problem created by more than one entity, one of them overseas.

You can't be the moderator of negotiations if you take the stance the blame is 100% on one side when it is not. If you do that, you need to have another nation take over the negotiations.

---

What interference are you talking about? Us providing weapons to Ukraine? If so then that happened BECAUSE Russia invaded. It's still 100% Russia fault for invading.

If you are talking about us interfering in Russia's election interference than that STILL doesn't justify invasion. If Columbia interfered in a Mexican election, then that wouldn't give us the right to unilaterally invade Mexico.

And are you referring to an INVASION as "solving a problem"? If so, then... really?

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You are still approaching this in terms of rights and shoulds and justifies. When you are trying to undo wars or decide if you want to fight one, those are not relevant. You have to deal with the foe as they are.

Many of the values that mean so much to us mean nothing in the Middle East. You couldn't approach that emotionally either. I am not sure what your point is?

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This thread is about "Trump saying Ukraine started the war". "Rights", "shoulds", and "justifies" are completely on topic.

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Oh in the overall thread, perhaps. That post was referring to a specific thing. In fact, its not even addressing what Trump said. Just the general impasse itself which has some resemblance to the disconnect trying to solve an Iran-Iraq fight.

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Well the point is that Trump is improperly blaming Ukraine for Russia's transgression which makes it clear that he will totally screw up "solving" this fight.

aTmAg said:

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titan said:

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aTmAg said:

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titan said:

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aTmAg said:

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titan said:

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aTmAg said:

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titan said:

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Teslag said:

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rgag12 said:

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GAC06 said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Teslag said:

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Agreed. A lot of the pro Russian posters here always casually hand wave away the pure hatred many Ukrainians have for Russians. **** like that isn't forgotten.

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There are zero pro Russian posters on this board.

Stop with this silly strawman and false dichotomy homie. You are better then that.

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There are quite a few pro Russian posters on this site.

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Not pro-Ukrainian does not equal pro-Russian.
The number of pro-Russian posters is very small. The number of not pro-Ukrainian posters and Americans in general grows everyday.

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If someone only blames one side while completely excusing the other they are most definitely pro one side.

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Frankly, that's a fair judgement. If you entirely excuse one side and go against the other -- like our MSM does against Russia -- that's a pro -stance. Those that blame Zelensky as just profit driven --that is also a pro stance.

The argument it is TWO corrupt countries fighting an installment of a conflict that like some Mideast ones is centuries old, that is not `pro' one or the other.

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Just because Ukraine was corrupt does not mean that they are in any way blameworthy for being invaded. The US has proven to be corrupt as hell too, and if Mexico invaded us, then they too would be in the wrong. Even if Russian was as virtuous and clean as the wind driven snow, they would be 100% in the wrong for invading Ukraine.

This war is 100% on Russia.

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You are giving a pass to our interference. Just because we don't like how someone chose to solve a problem doesn't mean it was 100% their doing. We are increasingly considering overt action in Mexico -- because we are trying to solve a problem created by more than one entity, one of them overseas.

You can't be the moderator of negotiations if you take the stance the blame is 100% on one side when it is not. If you do that, you need to have another nation take over the negotiations.

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What interference are you talking about? Us providing weapons to Ukraine? If so then that happened BECAUSE Russia invaded. It's still 100% Russia fault for invading.

If you are talking about us interfering in Russia's election interference than that STILL doesn't justify invasion. If Columbia interfered in a Mexican election, then that wouldn't give us the right to unilaterally invade Mexico.

And are you referring to an INVASION as "solving a problem"? If so, then... really?

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You are still approaching this in terms of rights and shoulds and justifies. When you are trying to undo wars or decide if you want to fight one, those are not relevant. You have to deal with the foe as they are.

Many of the values that mean so much to us mean nothing in the Middle East. You couldn't approach that emotionally either. I am not sure what your point is?

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This thread is about "Trump saying Ukraine started the war". "Rights", "shoulds", and "justifies" are completely on topic.

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Oh in the overall thread, perhaps. That post was referring to a specific thing. In fact, its not even addressing what Trump said. Just the general impasse itself which has some resemblance to the disconnect trying to solve an Iran-Iraq fight.

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Well the point is that Trump is improperly blaming Ukraine for Russia's transgression which makes it clear that he will totally screw up "solving" this fight.

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Granted that point. It does sound wrong out of the gate. Let's just stand there. I share your doubts about the way all that came out. Just have to trust his and Vance's judgement for the moment. They have done well enough with the USAID expose to rate it.

BusterAg said:

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Putin wants a few other things out of Ukraine. He wants control of the german pipeline. He wants to have his defensive border with Poland moved to the space between the mountains near Lviv. Tanks cannot cross the mountains north of there or south of there so his border with the NATO countries will shrink by 1500 miles and be WAY more defensible. Ukraine is hard to defend, the Poland gap is not. Putin wants ALL of Ukraine and he will eventually get it if we pull out or "broker" a deal.

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I don't believe you on the bold part. That's like, just your opinion, man.

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You say Putin wanting all of Ukraine is just opinion, but here is why.

The current Russian/Ukrainian border is 1400 miles. That distance is very hard to defend since it is mostly easy flattish land. Tanks do fine here, it is easy to refuel and supply. The Poland / Ukraine border is 350ish miles, however a large portion of it is mountains. The carpathians block the south and Belarus blocks the north. Putin has always known that he can stop NATO advances there and if NATO did try something, it would be bloody for both sides. Once NATO troops get into Ukraine proper then they can move, supply, etc. The Polish line is his spot.


If we pull entirely out of Ukraine he will take Donbras and the east immediately. Heck Trump just gave him those spots. Then he will slowly take the rest. Sure he will still call it Ukraine, but he will own and control it just like Belarus.


Did you read Trump's proposed "deal?" Trump gave Putin literally everything Putin wants. Putin gets the land he took. Ukraine gives back what they took. No supplies, no troops, no aid, no observers, no nothing at all. Putin makes absolutely zero concessions after invading a country just to take their oil. If Trump isn't a complete moron then Putin gave Trump something else that isn't listed in the "deal." Ask yourself, "what has Trump been asking for and what would he need to ask Putin for?"

Greenland is rich in rare earths and Trump is fascinated with the phrase "rare earth minerals."

Yes Ukraine will eventually elect a president that is on the same page as Moscow and will be deferential to Moscow. That's how it was from 1991 - 2014 and nobody cared.

If that's the actual deal, it sounds bad. But is a publicly proposed deal the real one at all?

I dunno. You saw hunters paintings right.