https://instagr.am/p/DGRmZ4TNet3

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I'm talking about Islam and more recently ATHEISM Both have plagued Eastern Europe and destroyed 2000 years of Christian civilization

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So the "God is Dead" movement pushed in the 19th Century in Europe (20th to present here for came later) by the intellectual academic tier.

Rossticus said:

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flown-the-coop said:

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titan said:

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For those going to the other extreme of talking about abandoning Ukraine entirely, what if any culpability or responsibility do you see we have for our mid 1990's arrangements and assurances with Urkaine?

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Do we have a handy list of those arrangements and assurances? Did they have any part of the bargain to hold up on their end? I would need to understand that to better determine. Though I think it can be assumed that I would answer "none" unless I have missed something.

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Here's the cliffs notes. Basically we promised we'd "do something" to ensure their security if Russia violated their end of the bargain, short of deploying troops. We were intentionally vague so as to be able to avoid any hard commitments when Russia inevitably reneged. Most likely the same will be true for any treaty resulting from the current situation, as everyone is well aware of what to expect from Russia.

https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/ukraine-nuclear-weapons-and-security-assurances-glance

https://cisac.fsi.stanford.edu/news/budapest-memorandum-myths

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/constructive-ambiguity-of-the-budapest-memorandum-at-28-making-sense-of-the-controversial-agreement

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Thanks again for the light reading!

But seriously, it would appear that whilst I was finishing up high school and attending our beloved university, Clinton was busy allowing a wishy washy situation to develop in Ukraine. Ukraine constantly wanting more from other countries in exchange for whatever bauble of value they have at the time (previously wheat, in the 1990s nukes, now maybe its 'rare' earths),

Over the years both the UK and United States have limited their commitments with a primary goal of avoiding conflict with Russia that would draw in direct military intervention and troops. Meanwhile, Ukraine kept wanting more and more protections / concessions including formalized commitment / security guaranties that would involve what the UK and US did not want - that direct military intervention.

Russia, in response to Ukraine's continued push for things like NATO membership, UN recognition of the security memorandum / agreement as a formal treaty and continued wishy washy by the West finally says **** it we are going to be proactive in taking Crimea, maybe more.

Over this time Ukraine continues to experience various regimes, coups, and the like making any longer term deals between all parties problematic further enticing Russia to act first. Heck, the installation of the actor now dictator in Ukraine and a Biden puppet admin saying things like "Don't... unless you mean just a minor incursion" and Putin decided it was time to act.

tl;dr You cannot trust Ukraine any more than you can trust Russia. Ukraine is constantly angling for the best deal (hard to blame them but still) which leads to others unwilling to commit to things long term.

My current position >> remove Zelensky immediately and let Ukraine decide on a formal peace treaty with Russia. From there they elect someone to abide by said treaty. And NATO is taken permanently off the table.

How do you hold Russia to that treaty?

Teslag said:

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How do you hold Russia to that treaty?

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Well, first you agree to an actual treaty not a vague memorandum.

You also agree to hold up your end. Making statements about admitting Ukraine into NATO is certainly not holding to the original understandings.

You do realize there was never an original treaty, correct? Or did I miss something in my homework reading?

I'm asking you how you hold Russia's feet to the fire on anything they agree to. Call it whatever you want.

How do you keep them from taking another bite at the apple and respecting Ukraine's full and complete sovereignty going forward?

Teslag said:

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I'm asking you how you hold Russia's feet to the fire on anything they agree to. Call it whatever you want.

How do you keep them from taking another bite at the apple and respecting Ukraine's full and complete sovereignty going forward?

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Trump will probably threaten to pop an EMP over Moscow as he has done previously.

Not sure what you are getting at.

Do you think admitting Ukraine into NATO somehow makes Russia say "okay, we get it now, we respect most sovereign Ukraine and will bend knee to USA and their friend the Great Zelensky".

If that is your plan, its not well thought out.

The US has stopped arms sales to Ukraine — Roman Kostenko, head of the Ukrainian Parliament’s defense committee pic.twitter.com/BG7LMmE1SH

— KyivPost (@KyivPost) February 20, 2025

This seems like good news

Called it.

Jbob04 said:

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The US has stopped arms sales to Ukraine — Roman Kostenko, head of the Ukrainian Parliament’s defense committee pic.twitter.com/BG7LMmE1SH

— KyivPost (@KyivPost) February 20, 2025

This seems like good news

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"sales"?

Teslag said:

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ETFan said:

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Congrats to Putin!

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No this is the art of the deal. Everyone knows you give the other side everything they want prior to negotiations.

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I think that we can all stop pretending that this is a "negotiation".

Zelensky is a brave guy and I have always liked him

but he really 2#$@#$ Ukraine the last 3 months starting with him visiting battleground state of Pennsylvania with their democrat governor just 2 weeks before the election

and badmouthing Trump?!?!

that's pretty idiotic.

Rossticus said:

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Teslag said:

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ETFan said:

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Congrats to Putin!

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No this is the art of the deal. Everyone knows you give the other side everything they want prior to negotiations.

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I think that we can all stop pretending that this is a "negotiation".

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Handover? Present?

Yep. It is Trump capitulating to a foreign adversity. Pretty stunning to see because I've always viewed him as a hard ass deal maker.

ETFan said:

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Congrats to Putin!

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Russia did win the war, albeit not nearly as quickly or efficiently as they initially planned, so Putin does deserve credit for not totally botching an easy job.

LMCane said:

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Zelensky is a brave guy and I have always liked him

but he really 2#$@#$ Ukraine the last 3 months starting with him visiting battleground state of Pennsylvania with their democrat governor just 2 weeks before the election

and badmouthing Trump?!?!

that's pretty idiotic.

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rgag12 said:

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ETFan said:

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Congrats to Putin!

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Russia did win the war, albeit not nearly as quickly or efficiently as they initially planned, so Putin does deserve credit for not totally botching an easy job.

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Well his goal was all of Ukraine so he did completely fail in that regard. Neither side will get what they want

Jbob04 said:

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The US has stopped arms sales to Ukraine — Roman Kostenko, head of the Ukrainian Parliament’s defense committee pic.twitter.com/BG7LMmE1SH

— KyivPost (@KyivPost) February 20, 2025

This seems like good news

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The US has NOT stopped arms sales to Ukraine — Ukrainian MP Ustinova refutes Kostenko’s claim

— KyivPost (@KyivPost) February 20, 2025

What a Charlie Foxtrot. Lol

Teslag said:

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Yep. It is Trump capitulating to a foreign adversity. Pretty stunning to see because I've always viewed him as a hard ass deal maker.

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To be fair, we don't know the deal yet.

The problem for Trump is he sees the reality on the ground just adding we all see it. Ukraine cannot win this warr or even take their stolen land back. And the only way that will happen is with American or European troops entering the fight

Trump will not do that. Zelenskyy apparently wants to keep fighting whereas Trump wants the war to stop. Getting to stop means letting putin have the parts of Ukraine he occupies.

I don't think Trump has any issue arming Ukraine and has said as much. But Putin came to the table while Zelenskyy isn't ready. Therefore, the art of the deal is being played against ukraine, for now.

Zelenskyy wanted to come to the table but wasn't offered a seat

fc2112 said:

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Jbob04 said:

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The US has stopped arms sales to Ukraine — Roman Kostenko, head of the Ukrainian Parliament’s defense committee pic.twitter.com/BG7LMmE1SH

— KyivPost (@KyivPost) February 20, 2025

This seems like good news

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"sales"?

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Are you indicating the post-it note from Z saying "We owe Biden for the rockets. Kthxbai!" does not create an official sale?

And we only sent them stuff we don't need as the bullets and rockets are not effective when we use them, but are deadly when used by Ukes to fight the Russians.

Teslag said:

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Zelenskyy wanted to come to the table but wasn't offered a seat

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When he starts acting like an adult then he can graduate from the kiddie table.

Him running his mouth yesterday ensures he will not get that seat.

Personally, I don't think he is the right one regardless.

Teslag said:

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Zelenskyy wanted to come to the table but wasn't offered a seat

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I don't think it's fair to say he wasn't offered a seat. Trump offered Z the drivers seat but he refused to agree to pay us back for the aid using the rare earth.

Who?mikejones! said:

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Teslag said:

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Yep. It is Trump capitulating to a foreign adversity. Pretty stunning to see because I've always viewed him as a hard ass deal maker.

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To be fair, we don't know the deal yet.

The problem for Trump is he sees the reality on the ground just adding we all see it. Ukraine cannot win this warr or even take their stolen land back. And the only way that will happen is with American or European troops entering the fight

Trump will not do that. Zelenskyy apparently wants to keep fighting whereas Trump wants the war to stop. Getting to stop means letting putin have the parts of Ukraine he occupies.

I don't think Trump has any issue arming Ukraine and has said as much. But Putin came to the table while Zelenskyy isn't ready. Therefore, the art of the deal is being played against ukraine, for now.

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Zelensky wants the best possible parting gifts for himself and his cronies in return for ending the war.

He is whining on the world stage still drunk on the Blue & Yellow twitter / facebook warriors from 3 years ago. But the US and to an extent global support is no longer there.

He is the one who over played his hand, Trump has called. Zelensky can fold and keep what chips he can or go all in.

His dumbarse appears to want to go all in.

regardless of what he says he is the constitutionally elected leader of the people being invaded through no fault of their own. And he remains the constitutionally legitimate president in their time of war.

Well, good for him.

Biden was our constitutionally elected leader and was nothing more than a grifter and a puppet. If it can happen here, pretty sure it can happen in Ukraine.

Some of us do not worship at the altar of the Great Z and have always seen him for the fraud he is, olive tracksuit and all.

the argument that "you are talking with our enemy and not us" is frankly idiotic

for DECADES the United States would conduct shuttle diplomacy with first Egypt, then Syria, then Jordan, then lebanon, then Israel, then North Vietnam, then South Vietnam

that is literally what DIPLOMACY is!!

you don't just all meet together on day one and say "now what do we do?"

I don't remember hearing the israelis cry about this:

Teslag said:

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ETFan said:

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Congrats to Putin!

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No this is the art of the deal. Everyone knows you give the other side everything they want prior to negotiations.

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Sorry not sorry. We told you it would end like this.

None of us here on earth are shocked.

Tom Kazansky 2012 said:

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Teslag said:

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ETFan said:

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Congrats to Putin!

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No this is the art of the deal. Everyone knows you give the other side everything they want prior to negotiations.

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Sorry not sorry. We told you it would end like this.

None of us here on earth are shocked.

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No, you assured us that Trump was a master deal maker and wouldn't be run over by a foreign leader.

Fortunately this story appears to be fake so there's still hope Trump is what he says he is.

Tom Kazansky 2012 said:

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Teslag said:

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ETFan said:

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Congrats to Putin!

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No this is the art of the deal. Everyone knows you give the other side everything they want prior to negotiations.

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Sorry not sorry. We told you it would end like this.

None of us here on earth are shocked.

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Who could've seen this coming except everyone?

Teslag said:

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Tom Kazansky 2012 said:

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Teslag said:

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ETFan said:

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Congrats to Putin!

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No this is the art of the deal. Everyone knows you give the other side everything they want prior to negotiations.

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Sorry not sorry. We told you it would end like this.

None of us here on earth are shocked.

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No, you assured us that Trump was a master deal maker and wouldn't be run over by a foreign leader.

Fortunately this story appears to be fake so there's still hope Trump is what he says he is.

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I am still assuring that.