Alta said:

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Well if the statement is that Mystic was lobbying against the bill and all Mystic parents got an email stating such then I am saying that statement is false. As a Mystic parent I got no such email nor did several Mystic moms I just asked who happen to be at our house right now.

The person saying the statement is irrelevant. It's not true that all Mystic parents got that email as I know firsthand at least 4 did not.

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Mystic didn't send an email against the bill but the mother claims they were lobbying against the bill until it was about to pass.
The camp released a statement on Instagram supporting the bill that was sent to Mystic parents but not the parents of the girls in the morning but released publicly in the afternoon. I do know from my friends who sent girls there that they did receive that statement in an email yesterday morning and have seen it.

Alta said:

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Emotional topic but TexAgs use to be better than this. The absolute false information getting thrown around as fact, just making **** up, etc. is really disappointing. Nobody is saying change doesn't need to occur. That doesn't mean parents are unreasonable for being willing to send a child back to Mystic. Change will occur in all of these camps to better prepare for the next natural disaster. And then something will occur that is unprecedented and people will again be out to destroy great people because that's what humans do best.

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With all due respect, please point out in this thread what has been false.

I have seen a lot of opinions posted, but I have yet to see anyone challenge any facts.

I agree. We have a poster that has consistently alleged things of a Godly man that meant a lot to many, many people.

We all feel for the people that lost loved ones, but this discussion is for all sides of the argument. Insulting others' senses because you don't agree with their opinion doesn't appear to follow values that are thrown about in other posts.

FM 949 said:

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The tone of your posts and your accusations?

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So what if my "accusations" are proven to be true? You are talking about stuff you know absolutely about unkess you are an attorney or somebody with knowledge of what actually happened.
And from what I know, my "tone" should actually be worse.
You got kids? An 8 y/o daughter? You want to come talk your sheet to my nephew?

FM 949 said:

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I agree. We have a poster that has consistently alleged things of a Godly man that meant a lot to many, many people.

We all feel for the people that lost loved ones, but this discussion is for all sides of the argument. Insulting others' senses because you don't agree with their opinion doesn't appear to follow values that are thrown about in other posts.

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Do not deny that. He screwed up. We all do.

Part of the Eastland family that owns the land has not been involved in the camp and the entire legal structure was to shield the land from liability concerns. Camp Mystic is 100% Dick/Tweety owned but leases the land from the entity that is owned by the full family, which that part of the family already has a legal history of being at odds with Dick over this land and camp. They have to be concerned enough already about that structure not holding off this liability, and odds they sit back and let Dick Eastland's son just restart the camp would be long. And that's ignoring a hundred other hurdles. No way it comes back.

Burdizzo said:

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Alta said:

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Emotional topic but TexAgs use to be better than this. The absolute false information getting thrown around as fact, just making **** up, etc. is really disappointing. Nobody is saying change doesn't need to occur. That doesn't mean parents are unreasonable for being willing to send a child back to Mystic. Change will occur in all of these camps to better prepare for the next natural disaster. And then something will occur that is unprecedented and people will again be out to destroy great people because that's what humans do best.

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With all due respect, please point out in this thread what has been false.

I have seen a lot of opinions posted, but I have yet to see anyone challenge any facts.

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I have multiple times but no I'm not going to call out every single inaccurate thing I see posted by name. I've tried to do so in a respectful way. Quite frankly this thread should be nuked especially if people are not even allowed to defend things they know are false.

Considering I signed the exact same waiver that warned about the camp being next to the river to send my daughter there, picked here up from the session prior to this event, have industry knowledge of floodplains and development within those, I do know alittle about this, sir.

And your nephew isn't part of this discussion, it's your posts and the contents of them.

You're gonna be signing one of those waivers somewhere else in 2026

FM 949 said:

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Considering I signed the exact same waiver that warned about the camp being next to the river to send my daughter there, picked here up from the session prior to this event, have industry knowledge of floodplains and development within those, I do know alittle about this, sir.

And your nephew isn't part of this discussion, it's your posts and the contents of them.

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How so? What have I posted that is not accurate?

aggiehawg said:

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Quote:

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Don't think you can just discharge into federal court with a gross negligence claim. Its going to be messy

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I have been out the legal biz for a loong time but back then, one could remover cases with an open bankruptcy case. Happened to me a few times.

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It's still that way. The bankruptcy court will have jurisdiction because these cases are "related to" the bankruptcy, meaning they could conceivably have any effect on the bankruptcy estate, which these cases clearly will.

Wherher gross negligence can be discharged is separate from jurisdiction. The statute says "willful and malicious injury" which is not equivalent to gross negligence, so the answers on dischargability depends on the facts. I don't see willful and malicious here.

redcrayon said:

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Alta said:

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Then others should be a little more cautious to share actual factual information and not lies. I feel the same way but after awhile it's hard to be silent when so much being spewed is simply not true.

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Again, Mystic doesn't need defenders. And your daughter doesn't need Mystic. The culture surrounding these camps is borderline cultish. Twenty-seven precious children are dead. Losing your summer camp is so insignificant compared to that that it's honestly not even worth mentioning.

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Mystic and the Eastlands deserve at least the truth. Circle back in years when that comes out. And no my daughter doesn't need Mystic. That doesn't change anything I've said.

As I have said in other posts if we can't at least seek to defend against falsehoods then just nuke this thread. It serves no purpose.

Quote:

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Quite frankly this thread should be nuked especially if people are not even allowed to defend things they know are false.

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Who isn't allowed to defend things they know are false?

Few of the threads on this entire site serve a purpose. If you find you aren't happy with it, you're free to bail

DannyDuberstein said:

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Few of the threads on this entire site serve a purpose. If you find you aren't happy with it, you're free to bail

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I'm not the one being offended by responding to falsehoods and just saying we need to accept what others say as gospel since it was a tragic situation.

We can start with you were wrong on the changing of regulations versus a legal process.

Look, I get it. You want your pound of flesh. I can't imagine going through what you and your family are going through, but this is a discussion forum and you can't expect others to sit idly by when you post things as "facts" when it's wrong or not proven.

Alta said:

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redcrayon said:

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Alta said:

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Then others should be a little more cautious to share actual factual information and not lies. I feel the same way but after awhile it's hard to be silent when so much being spewed is simply not true.

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Again, Mystic doesn't need defenders. And your daughter doesn't need Mystic. The culture surrounding these camps is borderline cultish. Twenty-seven precious children are dead. Losing your summer camp is so insignificant compared to that that it's honestly not even worth mentioning.

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Mystic and the Eastlands deserve at least the truth. Circle back in years when that comes out. And no my daughter doesn't need Mystic. That doesn't change anything I've said.

As I have said in other posts if we can't at least seek to defend against falsehoods then just nuke this thread. It serves no purpose.

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So where are the falsehoods? And yes the Eastlands deserve the truth. As do all of us.

No you do not get it. I do not want my pound of flesh, I want this to never happen again.

dermdoc said:

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txags92 said:

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twk said:

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fc2112 said:

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I'm sure many are all ready to sign back up

The insurance company isn't one of those, though.

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This right here. No insurance company is going to touch this risk if the same folks are involved. Even if the assets were sold to a new operator, I'm not sure this property will ever get insured for a kids camp again. Maybe some kind of resort, with structures out of the floodway, but that's probably it.

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There is a large part of the camp including many cabins that are nowhere near the floodway and that was not at risk during this flood event. How the lower cabins are handled will determine how insurance treats it, but actuarial risk management is a thing. There are plenty of companies that know how rare this event was and how changes in management will likely affect the level of risk going forward. I don't think there is any way that the camp reopens with the Eastlands still involved.

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They built more cabins down by the river after being warned repeatedly.

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What year were the cabins you're referencing built?

So is there only one way "this never happens again" is possible?

FM 949 said:

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So is there only one way "this never happens again" is possible?

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Sure. This is not hard. First of all, you admit you are in a flood plane and do not build more cabins by the river. Secondly, you have more than 4 adults on site with 700+ girls when a flood warning is issued. Thirdly, when counselors tell you there is danger your adults do not tell them not to move the girls. Thirdly, since you are in a flood plane, you have a plan if that happens. Fourthly, if you care about the kids, you pay to get sirens or a warning system.

I have more if you like

SB IV said:

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dermdoc said:

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txags92 said:

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twk said:

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fc2112 said:

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I'm sure many are all ready to sign back up

The insurance company isn't one of those, though.

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This right here. No insurance company is going to touch this risk if the same folks are involved. Even if the assets were sold to a new operator, I'm not sure this property will ever get insured for a kids camp again. Maybe some kind of resort, with structures out of the floodway, but that's probably it.

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There is a large part of the camp including many cabins that are nowhere near the floodway and that was not at risk during this flood event. How the lower cabins are handled will determine how insurance treats it, but actuarial risk management is a thing. There are plenty of companies that know how rare this event was and how changes in management will likely affect the level of risk going forward. I don't think there is any way that the camp reopens with the Eastlands still involved.

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They built more cabins down by the river after being warned repeatedly.

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What year were the cabins you're referencing built?

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Not sure. Will ask Mary Grace's dad,

FM 949 said:

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We can start with you were wrong on the changing of regulations versus a legal process.

Look, I get it. You want your pound of flesh. I can't imagine going through what you and your family are going through, but this is a discussion forum and you can't expect others to sit idly by when you post things as "facts" when it's wrong or not proven.

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Where was I wrong on changing of regulations vs a legal process? Are you talking about the FEMA stuff?

You keep saying you know more about this than the rest of us, yet you keep making the same wrong assertion that they were lying about the floodplain. You have been told multiple times why you are wrong yet continue to ignore it.

No where in your list is sue the camp into oblivion, yet that's what you are advocating. Apparently it is hard.

FM 949 said:

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You keep saying you know more about this than the rest of us, yet you keep making the same wrong assertion that they were lying about the floodplain. You have been told multiple times why you are wrong yet continue to ignore it.

No where in your list is sue the camp into oblivion, yet that's what you are advocating. Apparently it is hard.

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What do you know? Just curious. Who are your sources?
If you know more than me I really would like the additional information. Thanks

Can you please re-read the last couple of pages?

FM 949 said:

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Can you please re-read the last couple of pages?

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I do not need to. Who and what do you know that I do not? I have read every word you posted.

dermdoc said:

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FM 949 said:

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So is there only one way "this never happens again" is possible?

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Sure. This is not hard. First of all, you admit you are in a flood plane and do not build more cabins by the river. Secondly, you have more than 4 adults on site with 700+ girls when a flood warning is issued. Thirdly, when counselors tell you there is danger your adults do not tell them not to move the girls. Thirdly, since you are in a flood plane, you have a plan if that happens. Fourthly, if you care about the kids, you pay to get sirens or a warning system.

I have more if you like

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I grew up going to LLYC and my daughter is a camper now. This situation made us research if LLYC has any sort of plan in a flood event. We found out, other than standard night watch personnel, they have a flood gauge system linked to a computer that is actively monitored around the clock. There are also designated high ground muster points. I'm also sure that by learning from Mystic additional safe guards will be put in place. We are very comfortable to continue sending our daughter.

So do you understand the difference between your accusation of changing regulations/lying about the floodplain and a federally approved LOMR which removes property legally from a floodplain?

SB IV said:

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dermdoc said:

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FM 949 said:

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So is there only one way "this never happens again" is possible?

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Sure. This is not hard. First of all, you admit you are in a flood plane and do not build more cabins by the river. Secondly, you have more than 4 adults on site with 700+ girls when a flood warning is issued. Thirdly, when counselors tell you there is danger your adults do not tell them not to move the girls. Thirdly, since you are in a flood plane, you have a plan if that happens. Fourthly, if you care about the kids, you pay to get sirens or a warning system.

I have more if you like

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I grew up going to LLYC and my daughter is a camper now. This situation made us research if LLYC has any sort of plan in a flood event. We found out, other than standard night watch personnel, they have a flood gauge system linked to a computer that is actively monitored around the clock. There are also designated high ground muster points. I'm also sure that by learning from Mystic additional safe guards will be put in place. We are very comfortable to continue sending our daughter.

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I agree. Did Mystic have the same safeguards?

FM 949 said:

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So do you understand the difference between your accusation of changing regulations/lying about the floodplain and a federally approved LOMR which removes property legally from a floodplain?

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Where did I say anyone lied? My goodness. And I do believe they changed the flood plains in deference to Mystic. If I am wrong, I will own it.

txags92 said:

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94chem said:

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dermdoc said:

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71 jock said:

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I'm genuinely curious how many of you have actually ever been to Camp Mystic, met the Eastland's, seen the love and Christian growth these girls experience while there. I've seen a few on this thread. That's it. The rest of you have no idea how this camp has impacted girls and families for generations. Everyone's heart absolutely breaks for what happened to the girls lost, their families, and the Eastland family.

When you actually know how special this place is which 99% of you don't, you can grieve with the families AND want the camp to continue. The best way to honor those girls is to remember them every day but especially every summer at camp. Closing down the camp will do nothing but damage this opportunity. They will never be forgotten, and we continually pray for them. Taking that away from others is not the answer.

It's easy for outsiders to spread misinformation and talk of money and greed, but I'm here to tell you again, you have no idea what you are talking about. We don't know what's going to happen, but I can tell you my daughter and her entire cabin she's been with for 6 years, will not hesitate to go back if given that chance. And those of you saying most parents wouldn't send their kids back are just flat out wrong and again showing you have no idea what you are talking about.

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I am well aware of all this. The Eastlands screwed up. Repeatedly. And I am a Christian and love all the Camp Mystic history. . But they were negligent. And if nothing changes, I would question why you feel comfortable sending your family there.

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Doc, you know how it was after Bonfire. There were strong emotions all around. As the months passed, most people began to slowly realize what had happened and why it didn't need to have happened. Then slowly the number of people who wanted it back on campus began to dwindle. Ultimately, none of the emotions mattered. It was never coming back and never had a chance. I'm not saying that you will do this or that you even are tempted, but it will be a waste of time to argue with anyone who thinks Mystic will return. It ain't gonna happen. Spend your emotions elsewhere. Lord knows you've got plenty of places to go.

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Except Bonfire didn't go away. It came back in a different form under different leadership structure and has proven that they could learn from the tragic past and do things better and safer going forward. It will never be back on campus just because there isn't room anymore…but it didn't end with the move off-campus either.

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Opinions vary, but I would contend that Bonfire today isn't the Bonfire of 1998.

You could create a camp on Guadalupe at Seguin and call it Camp Mystic. It would still be on the banks of the same river, but I doubt many people would consider it the same thing

aggiehawg said:

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Serotonin said:

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Can't speak for others but feel like this could be partially directed at me.

We know the Eastlands very well. They are amazing. My grandmother, mother, sister, most girl cousins went to Camp Mystic. So this is coming from someone who is not a rando internet dude.

I don't think there's any way it's coming back. Just my opinion though.

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Not in its old form, at least.
But that is still some very valuable land for developers to build upscale riverfront homes. My point being that others have interests in how these lawsuits proceed. Years of litigation.

Chapter 11 maybe? Remain debtor in possession to reorganize and remove the cases into federal court? Glad I am not advising the Eastlands right now. Tragic all of the way around.

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The Bass family of Ft. Worth owns the former camp that is next to.Mystic. I suspect they would gladly buy the old Mystic.

Burdizzo said:

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aggiehawg said:

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Serotonin said:

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Can't speak for others but feel like this could be partially directed at me.

We know the Eastlands very well. They are amazing. My grandmother, mother, sister, most girl cousins went to Camp Mystic. So this is coming from someone who is not a rando internet dude.

I don't think there's any way it's coming back. Just my opinion though.

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Not in its old form, at least.
But that is still some very valuable land for developers to build upscale riverfront homes. My point being that others have interests in how these lawsuits proceed. Years of litigation.

Chapter 11 maybe? Remain debtor in possession to reorganize and remove the cases into federal court? Glad I am not advising the Eastlands right now. Tragic all of the way around.

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The Bass family of Ft. Worth owns the former camp that is next to.Mystic. I suspect they would gladly buy the old Mystic.

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Hope so. And run it correctly.

"First of all, you admit you are in a flood plane "

Did I misinterpret this? If so, I apologize.