Who?mikejones! said:

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Well, maybe you got a point if youre referring to stage stuff.

Music, actors, production etc are going to be replaced

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Yes, I'm referring to stage.

Itncould quadruple and we might fill the need. Doubling wouldnt replace the existing need right now, especially considering that amount of people leaving or soon to leave

student loan debt burden, covid, cultural pushback, and labor market shifts have changed the perception on the value of college, but by the numbers the financial ROI on completing a college degree is still good. college grads have higher median wages and lower unemployment and that remains true compared to 15 years ago.

Nm, wrong poster.

Check back in 15 years.

Im also not sure its the ebst metric to judge the value of an individual choosing to go to college.

The engineer, finance, stem degrees, law etc are going to bring that number up. Its also true that that statistic pre selects its participating with those who traditionally might be more driven, capable etc.

The other group is going to include those kids already to dumb, already unmotivated, already the future dregs.

The people that are reconsidering is a unique set- its those fully capable of enrolling a completing college of they desired but see value elsewhere

titan said:

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Liberal Arts taught though a Marxist or critical theory lens IS valueless. So they are right to start spurning that. Need to look at some of the others to see if have gotten too politicized. Anything involving atmospherics (and climate related) may well have.

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I have a liberal arts degree dont recall any Marxist views being taught at aTm. Yall are saying STEM graduates make up the majority of the professional workforce?

This trend has been happening for a bit. There have been ~250 liberal arts schools that have closed their doors in the past 5 years or so which is, in all likelihood, a good thing. Almost all of those schools were left wing indoctrination centers.

Kids are gravitating to schools with ROI and that's the big state schools and the traditional Ivy's. Granted, some of the Ivy's are a joke, if not most of them.

Going to go slightly against the grain here. I think college should be promoted, but only for fields that have a high barrier of entry, you can be your own boss, or has a traditional high ROI (engineering). My anecdote: my field, vascular interventional radiology, has guys setting up cosmetic vein clinics charging 5-7k cash pay per an endovascular ablation, 1k for sclerotherapy, and theyre booked doing 10-15 procedures a day. I know GI docs netting 1k per scope they do, plastic surgeons charging 15k a case, the list goes on. If you're an engineer or business guy you can build a product, scale it, and sell it. I'm sorry but a plumber isn't doing that.

If you pick your college educated career wisely, you will be fine.

2wealfth Man said:

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I have a friend who is in the wealth management business and a larger and larger chunk of his high net worth clientele are trades folks who are just raking in the dough. Hoping economics will guide the river flow in the right direction for those making career choices. Being an apprentice is a ***** but it is how you learn.

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Provide some real numbers

infinity ag said:

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The only thing I am worried is you are recommending our kids do HVAC, plumber, driver type jobs, and Kumar from India sends his son to Harvard and he heads to the Silicon Valley and becomes a gazillionaire.

Our kids work till they die, Kumar's son retires at 50 after selling his company./

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This exactly, trading your time for money will always be a limiting factor. An engineer who creates a patent and sells it for 10M will be much better off (and healthier) than an HVAC guy putting in hard work. And the reason the average age of trade workers is failry low, its hard work and your body breaks down

I cant comment on the "trades," but the average construction worker is 42.

I can tell you that the average age of the trades that work for me is probably around 40. Theres absolutely few people under 25. I work with hvac, plumbing, electrical, framers, trim guys, cabinet guys, concrete guys, pool guys, roofers, heavy equipment guys, masons, welders, septic guys, appliance guys, coutnertop guys, flooring guys and so on. I can probably count on both my hands the number of people under 30, and on one hand the number under 25 that show up to my jobsite

I also think it is very dependent on the kid. not every college kid is going to invent the next big thing, or patent the next big thing, or even has the capacity for that. Its about acknowledging that college is indeed not the ebst route for everyone like has been the push the last 20 years.

I guarantee you an 17 year old kid could start the path to be an electrician today and end up making 6 figures by the time he is 22 and make multiple 6 figures by 27 or 28 with the right coaching and instincts.

It's not just AI though. College had the monopoly on knowledge for centuries. Now you can learn how to pretty much do anything on YouTube in a matter of days if you focus on it.

Between that, AI, and the job market, I could see colleges having a real problem, especially once companies either replace a lot of those entry level jobs with AI, and/or start hiring people without a degree who can get the same work done.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next 10 years or so, but I currently don't know that I'll encourage my kids to go to college (oldest is 6), especially if they don't want to pursue a very specific field.

But yes, AI is going to change everything over the next 5 years.

A bachelor's degree is the new GED.

Jeeper79 said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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A.I. is a problem. You have to be careful what you pick.

I only have about 10 more years to worry about. Can you imagine what A.I. will be like in 20, 30, 40 years?

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My older kid is interested in a career in performing arts. I used to think that was a terrible idea, but considering it's AI proof, I'm now taking a more wait-and-see approach. Thankfully we've a few more years to figure it all out.

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Please don't.
That is a hobby, not a career. Unless he is Tom Cruise or Scarlett Jo, he is in for a rough life.

I told my kids to clearly know what is a career and what is a hobby. If one is lucky, they both are the same. If not, you have to focus on a career and in your spare time enjoy your hobby.

itsyourboypookie said:

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Outside of the network being a vet, lawyer, or doctor has it really ever had any value?

Are a bunch of can't do's that teach really who you want to learn from?

The internet has made it irrelevant.

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I entered the legal profession 10 years ago and it has been highly lucrative for me. I own my own shop.

Who?mikejones! said:

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Check back in 15 years.

Im also not sure its the ebst metric to judge the value of an individual choosing to go to college.

The engineer, finance, stem degrees, law etc are going to bring that number up. It's also true that that statistic pre selects its participating with those who traditionally might be more driven, capable etc.

The other group is going to include those kids already to dumb, already unmotivated, already the future dregs.

The people that are reconsidering is a unique set- its those fully capable of enrolling a completing college of they desired but see value elsewhere

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that's kind of the point. close to half of degree holders in the US have STEM or science/technology related degrees. another 20% are business degrees. the majority of people going to college do so in pursuit of "valuable" degrees.

the value of college is very much still real, regardless of handwringing about leftist indoctrination and $200,000 underwater basket weaving degrees.

Old McDonald said:

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Who?mikejones! said:

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Check back in 15 years.

Im also not sure its the ebst metric to judge the value of an individual choosing to go to college.

The engineer, finance, stem degrees, law etc are going to bring that number up. It's also true that that statistic pre selects its participating with those who traditionally might be more driven, capable etc.

The other group is going to include those kids already to dumb, already unmotivated, already the future dregs.

The people that are reconsidering is a unique set- its those fully capable of enrolling a completing college of they desired but see value elsewhere

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that's kind of the point. close to half of degree holders in the US have STEM or science/technology related degrees. another 20% are business degrees. the majority of people going to college do so in pursuit of "valuable" degrees.

the value of college is very much still real, regardless of handwringing about leftist indoctrination and $200,000 underwater basket weaving degrees.

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Your stats are completely incorrect.

Slicer97 said:

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Perhaps college professors should learn that universities are for education, not indoctrination.

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The problem is that the liberal arts has changed in which that is all they do for they have lost the meaning of what an "education" is..

Tom Fox said:

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itsyourboypookie said:

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Outside of the network being a vet, lawyer, or doctor has it really ever had any value?

Are a bunch of can't do's that teach really who you want to learn from?

The internet has made it irrelevant.

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I entered the legal profession 10 years ago and it has been highly lucrative for me. I own my own shop.

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The legal profession is going to get killed by AI. It is the most at risk profession imo. Any occupation that deals with language is in the cross hair. That's what AI does.

Logos Stick said:

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Tom Fox said:

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itsyourboypookie said:

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Outside of the network being a vet, lawyer, or doctor has it really ever had any value?

Are a bunch of can't do's that teach really who you want to learn from?

The internet has made it irrelevant.

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I entered the legal profession 10 years ago and it has been highly lucrative for me. I own my own shop.

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The legal profession is going to get killed by AI. It is the most at risk profession imo. Any occupation that deals with language is in the cross hair. That's what AI does.

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Good luck with that. It will not kill my part of the legal profession until the AI can walk into the courtroom and argue for someone's freedom to a jury of its peers. My part of the legal system is constitutionally mandated.

It will however decimate business law and consequently increase competition in my area of law. Fortunately for me I am already established and have market share.

Logos Stick said:

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Tom Fox said:

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itsyourboypookie said:

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Outside of the network being a vet, lawyer, or doctor has it really ever had any value?

Are a bunch of can't do's that teach really who you want to learn from?

The internet has made it irrelevant.

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I entered the legal profession 10 years ago and it has been highly lucrative for me. I own my own shop.

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The legal profession is going to get killed by AI. It is the most at risk profession imo. Any occupation that deals with language is in the cross hair. That's what AI does.

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AI bull****s and it cannot be fixed. That's okay for writing fiction, but a big problem for any work requiring accuracy.

Chatgpt fact check:


# Breakdown of U.S. College Degrees by Field

### Bachelor's Degrees (2021)

* **STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics):** \~24%
* **Business (Accounting, Finance, Marketing, Management, etc.):** \~19%
* **Liberal Arts / Social Sciences / Humanities:** \~4243%
* **Other Applied Fields (Health Professions, Education, etc.):** \~15%

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### All Degree Levels (Associate's, Bachelor's, Master's, etc.)

* **STEM:** \~1719%
* **Business:** \~1719%
* **Liberal Arts / General Studies:** \~1011%
* **Other (Health Professions, Education, Applied Fields):** \~50%+

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## Category Standards / Definitions

* **STEM** Includes computer science, physical sciences, mathematics, engineering, biology, and related fields.
* **Business** Includes accounting, finance, management, marketing, supply chain, and related majors.
* **Liberal Arts / Humanities / Social Sciences** Includes history, philosophy, literature, languages, political science, sociology, psychology, communications, fine arts, and general liberal studies.
* **Other Applied Fields** Includes health professions (nursing, medicine prep, allied health), education, agriculture, public administration, law enforcement, and similar professional or vocational programs.

Logos Stick said:

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Old McDonald said:

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Who?mikejones! said:

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Check back in 15 years.

Im also not sure its the ebst metric to judge the value of an individual choosing to go to college.

The engineer, finance, stem degrees, law etc are going to bring that number up. It's also true that that statistic pre selects its participating with those who traditionally might be more driven, capable etc.

The other group is going to include those kids already to dumb, already unmotivated, already the future dregs.

The people that are reconsidering is a unique set- its those fully capable of enrolling a completing college of they desired but see value elsewhere

---

that's kind of the point. close to half of degree holders in the US have STEM or science/technology related degrees. another 20% are business degrees. the majority of people going to college do so in pursuit of "valuable" degrees.

the value of college is very much still real, regardless of handwringing about leftist indoctrination and $200,000 underwater basket weaving degrees.

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Your stats are completely incorrect.

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oh?

I wouldn't recommend college to anyone other than potential physicians. It's a waste of time and money for both students and parents. To parents of potential physicians check the success rate of students from college freshman to medical school graduate. It's extremely low.

Information is available at warp speed now. Nobody needs an old fart teaching them from a book written in the past. When I was in school in the late 80's I saw how these profs made their money by requiring students to purchase their barely-updated, antiquated books.

I graduated in 1979. I never bought one book. If the professor wrote the text book you could check it out at the library.

jja79 said:

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I graduated in 1979. I never bought one book. If the professor wrote the text book you could check it out at the library.

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You old SOB. Was the printing press even invented yet?

Believe it or not there are actually people older than me and still living. And college isn't worth the money and probably hasn't been for years. I never had to produce a transcript nor was I ever asked about grades once when applying for a job. I talked to a friend yesterday that graduated in 1975 and made many hires during his career. I asked him if he ever asked about college degrees when hiring and he said no..

Hoyt Ag said:

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If I was 18 and graduating HS, I would do exactly what my girlfriends son is doing. Heading to welding school for 6 months and then start his career. Her other son is a general contractor and has mor work than he can handle, and he is only 23 with a 4 man crew.

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My oldest son is just out of welding school making 32 dollars an hour at 19 years old. Not huge money but not peanuts either and he gets a lot of OT...

The company he works for has good benefits and training him to be a Millwright welder which can lead to really good money like at least 50 plus an hour... They are paying for his certs too. I'm happy for him, and it's just hard work and pretty clean living for him right now. Keeps him out of trouble...

Youngest son wanted to go into coding but can see what's happening with A.I., so he's going to school to be an Xray Tech and then going to follow up and get MRI cert...He's sort of following his mom, she's an Xray/ Mammo tech and will probably be able to get him a good job in MRI with her connections.

I drive around the A&M campus and see them continuing to build additional buildings. Then I wonder how all of this extra overhead is going to work out for them when the college house of cards falls……

Child #1 - welding school, employed

Child #2 - following in dad's footsteps, Ph.D. chemistry program. Can't trade school or pre-med your way into that career.

Child #3 - full ride, economics and linguistics, D1 athlete. Can't trade school that path. Likely headed to grad school

Child #4 - in college, disabled. Cannot do manual labor, and requires a college degree to achieve gainful employment. Trade school not an option.

Child #5 - wants to do plant research, horticultural genetics or similar, 35 ACT, could go to trade school, but getting a Ph.D. and learning how to feed your grandchildren might be more valuable.

Child #6 - who knows.

All over the place, but the one thing I constantly see overlooked is advanced STEM degrees. Of course we need M.D.'s and engineers, and they come up with their fair share widgetry, but the world's big technical problems are largely studied by Ph.D.'s, not welders. So you have to be in tune with how your child is wired. I told my 2nd child to pick a problem that the world needs solved, and devote her life to pursuing it. Could be any number of chemical problems, but nobody with a B.S. or an M.D. or an engineering degree will be doing it.

Fun nugget of knowledge related to this topic: this year is the last largest class of freshmen that will enroll in college.

Not necessarily due to a decrease in people that pursue a college degree, but our population is incrementally smaller at every year younger.

zgolfz85 said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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A.I. is a problem. You have to be careful what you pick.

I only have about 10 more years to worry about. Can you imagine what A.I. will be like in 20, 30, 40 years?

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indeed. I am a diehard Ag, not the most redass, but diehard nonetheless. I took pride and passion in my studies during my time on campus (while also spending way too much time partying, but such is life). I'd argue that I could probably have walked away with as much takeaway knowledge by simply plugging my various class syllabi (maybe not a word) into ChatGPT and just reading the resulting notes. And, we're just on the front edge of this oncoming train.

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Same here, I have a bachelors in Computer Science, but honestly most everything I have learned in relation to my current job was probably 50% learned in on the job training, and the other 50% from the internet/ self taught.

I guess college taught me how to research, study, put in the work, accountability, and a little bit about coding languages that gave me a foundation to build from. It doesn't seem like it's worth the astronomical costs that some kids/ parents have to pay now though for the education I got. They could get certifications in some of the IT / Developer fields much cheaper and be just as qualified for some of the entry level jobs like I started with.

titan said:

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Liberal Arts taught though a Marxist or critical theory lens IS valueless. So they are right to start spurning that. Need to look at some of the others to see if have gotten too politicized. Anything involving atmospherics (and climate related) may well have.

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It's way worse than having just zero value.

infinity ag said:

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JB!98 said:

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If my son was not considering the military and medical school, then he agrees that a trade school is a much better option. STEM degrees should be the main reason for college.

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I agree.
College is for a reason. To learn stuff like STEM related areas. My son is finishing up with Computer Science and the jobmarket is tough right now with all the H1Bs and outsourcing that is happening. Hopefully all that will be stopped and some sense restored.

If you go to college to learn about "gender studies", then you deserve to get into debt, assuming you aren't super rich and just going to college for fun.

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If you do this, you should also deserve to be perpetually and starve without government assistance. Choices have consequences. Poor choice, or consequences.