Jeeper79 said:

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infinity ag said:

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The only thing I am worried is you are recommending our kids do HVAC, plumber, driver type jobs, and Kumar from India sends his son to Harvard and he heads to the Silicon Valley and becomes a gazillionaire.

Our kids work till they die, Kumar's son retires at 50 after selling his company./

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Theres also the matter of supply and demand. The trades pay so well because they're relatively scarce. If the number of qualified tradesmen were to double, then competition in the job market (or consumer market if self employed), would dictate that earnings will come down.

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So, the artificial restriction on the growth of plumbers due to licensing requirements will put a damper on that.

Not only will it take 5+ years to get a lot more master plumbers, a whole bunch of people that might decide to become a plumber when looking at a $600 bill to unstop a sewer line will decline to become a plumber because it will take them so long to be their own boss as a plumber.

This is great news. The less value placed on the modern American university might be the thing to actually get it to change back to the business of actually educating people to be productive members of society and not antifa of blm members.

HDeathstar said:

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In the past, Universities were for people dedicated to learning and the rich that could afford for their kids to go get a classical liberal education to make them more accepted in the society circles that they engaged in. I think this should still be the case.

However, I do think there should be post high school colleges that focus on certain trades. Drop the well-rounded education requirements of a university degree (PE, history, international elective, fine art elective, etc) and just focus on the trade. Engineering, science, accounting, finance, etc. The University model needs to be adjusted or go back to the original purpose of a university. Example: Go to a business only college, business only classes and graduate in 2-3 years. This would help so many people, especially people from the lower middle class trying to get their kids another step above their parents status.

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All the "well rounded education" requirements were implemented so the left could indoctrinate. We moved away from programs that actually prepared people to work and be productive members of society.

Ramdiesel said:

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Hoyt Ag said:

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If I was 18 and graduating HS, I would do exactly what my girlfriends son is doing. Heading to welding school for 6 months and then start his career. Her other son is a general contractor and has mor work than he can handle, and he is only 23 with a 4 man crew.

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My oldest son is just out of welding school making 32 dollars an hour at 19 years old. Not huge money but not peanuts either and he gets a lot of OT...

The company he works for has good benefits and training him to be a Millwright welder which can lead to really good money like at least 50 plus an hour... They are paying for his certs too. I'm happy for him, and it's just hard work and pretty clean living for him right now. Keeps him out of trouble...

Youngest son wanted to go into coding but can see what's happening with A.I., so he's going to school to be an Xray Tech and then going to follow up and get MRI cert...He's sort of following his mom, she's an Xray/ Mammo tech and will probably be able to get him a good job in MRI with her connections.

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Your oldest makes $32/hr. How much will be make in 5 years? 10 years? Maybe $50/hr? $60? How much more upside does he have? What about 20 years from now? Might they automate it? What about health risks? Will he be able to work in the same profession at 40? Can he get into other fields?

The software industry is going through some ups and downs but it will settle in some time. Don't believe what the AI companies are saying about replacing everyone with AI. It is their job to make statements to pump up their stock. If you are really interested and committed and not just in for the money, you have a future. AI can do only so much and the hype will soon begin to fade.

whytho987654 said:

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infinity ag said:

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The only thing I am worried is you are recommending our kids do HVAC, plumber, driver type jobs, and Kumar from India sends his son to Harvard and he heads to the Silicon Valley and becomes a gazillionaire.

Our kids work till they die, Kumar's son retires at 50 after selling his company./

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This exactly, trading your time for money will always be a limiting factor. An engineer who creates a patent and sells it for 10M will be much better off (and healthier) than an HVAC guy putting in hard work. And the reason the average age of trade workers is failry low, its hard work and your body breaks down

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Exactly.. many people here on this board are stuck in the 50s where "we did a hard day's work outdoors and enjoyed a beer in the evenings". Things have changed. We let in a flood of immigrants in the 90s onward who have changed the way this country works.

In this age of automation, "i work with my hands" is outdated.

In my neighborhood, all the Asian kids are doing medicine, engineering or finance. The white kids are doing physical ed, broadcast media, drama and fine arts and such low salary majors. No "gender studies" that I know off. No blacks in my area.

If you are going to work in corporate (which is still the first step for many college grads), then you better have a degree. While some companies have talked about scaling back the need for a degree as a minimum requirement, it hasn't gained much traction yet from what I've seen.

I've hired a lot of people in my F500 career and if you didn't have a degree then your resume is automatically circle filed. I think it's delusional for everyone to say "just avoid college and start their own business!" Big companies bring scale to a lot of products and services that everyone on here likely takes for granted.

I say all of this as a fan of more kids going the trades route (because we have shortages), and/or doing something that is non-corporate. There is a better mix here that has simply gotten out of whack over the past few decades with this incessant mantra that EVERYONE needs to go to college. No, they don't. But the ones that do should focus on an actual value-add degree and universities need to revamp their curriculums to ensure they are actually teaching value added skills.

Quote:

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"i work with my hands" is outdated

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I work with my lips and make $75-$100 an hour doing it.

For all those people who love to **** all over the arts, I cannot imagine how sad and dreary the world would be without the arts.

YouBet said:

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If you are going to work in corporate (which is still the first step for many college grads), then you better have a degree. While some companies have talked about scaling back the need for a degree as a minimum requirement, it hasn't gained much traction yet from what I've seen.

I've hired a lot of people in my F500 career and if you didn't have a degree then your resume is automatically circle filed. I think it's delusional for everyone to say "just avoid college and start their own business!" Big companies bring scale to a lot of products and services that everyone on here likely takes for granted.

I say all of this as a fan of more kids going the trades route (because we have shortages), and/or doing something that is non-corporate. There is a better mix here that has simply gotten out of whack over the past few decades with this incessant mantra that EVERYONE needs to go to college. No, they don't. But the ones that do should focus on an actual value-add degree and universities need to revamp their curriculums to ensure they are actually teaching value added skills.

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Good post. Good advice.

Yes... Not everyone needs to go to college, but to say that college is overrated and just collects debt is dumb. Collecting debt for a African Studies major from Harvard is dumb. Doing a medical school degree or an engineering or law degree opens up a lot of opportunities that one has to grab. No degree, no opportunity. This ain't the 50s. Nowadays we are competing with people from India with fake degrees. They go to a printing press, get it printed and show it to gullible (actually greedy) US companies who hire them for cheap.

Renowned Indian University Sells 36,000 Fake Degrees
https://integrity-asia.com/blog/renowned-indian-university-sells-36000-fake-degrees/

It's a matter of perspective too. Most of this board is upper middle class or above and we want that for our children. You can live a great life as a plumber or electrician but your upward mobility is limited. Sure you can start your own business but that's a very small fraction of those tradespeople, and if you have that amount of ability and fortitude you likely would've been successful regardless of what path you chose for education. The traditional path of a (useful) college degree provides the most flexibility over a 40+ year working life. You can pivot industries with a business degree but that's going to be pretty hard if you're a plumber.

infinity ag said:

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Ramdiesel said:

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Hoyt Ag said:

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If I was 18 and graduating HS, I would do exactly what my girlfriends son is doing. Heading to welding school for 6 months and then start his career. Her other son is a general contractor and has mor work than he can handle, and he is only 23 with a 4 man crew.

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My oldest son is just out of welding school making 32 dollars an hour at 19 years old. Not huge money but not peanuts either and he gets a lot of OT...

The company he works for has good benefits and training him to be a Millwright welder which can lead to really good money like at least 50 plus an hour... They are paying for his certs too. I'm happy for him, and it's just hard work and pretty clean living for him right now. Keeps him out of trouble...

Youngest son wanted to go into coding but can see what's happening with A.I., so he's going to school to be an Xray Tech and then going to follow up and get MRI cert...He's sort of following his mom, she's an Xray/ Mammo tech and will probably be able to get him a good job in MRI with her connections.

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Your oldest makes $32/hr. How much will be make in 5 years? 10 years? Maybe $50/hr? $60? How much more upside does he have? What about 20 years from now? Might they automate it? What about health risks? Will he be able to work in the same profession at 40? Can he get into other fields?

The software industry is going through some ups and downs but it will settle in some time. Don't believe what the AI companies are saying about replacing everyone with AI. It is their job to make statements to pump up their stock. If you are really interested and committed and not just in for the money, you have a future. AI can do only so much and the hype will soon begin to fade.

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My oldest son, honestly, has never been that good at school, and he loves working with his hands right now. He can make a lot of money welding; especially, if he becomes a Millwright and pipe welder. He is already a pipe fitter welder. Yes, it will be tough on his body, but he loves it for now. I think the max he might make working for someone else would be 60 dollars an hour regular pay, but would probably be a lot of Overtime available too. Workiing for himself like a pipe welder on the road could be 150,000 a year on up..I think welding will be pretty A.I. / Automation proof in most cases.

My youngest wanted to be a Coder/ Developer, and he can still do that down the line while making money as an Xray tech. Xray tech schedules are pretty flexible if he takes a PRN job...He can set his own schedule and go back to school to be a Developer.

I kind of disagree with you on the H1B Visa BS that is going on now. I don't see much change with that, I think there will always be loopholes for these companies to screw over American born citizens the way it is going...Plus the government is going to be ever changing with each election. Trump could honestly try to fix it, but the next guy could be owned by the big corps like most politicians.

Whats ones goal? If it's making money and lots of it, then plumbing is and is going to continue to be a viable path for that. Especially if one has an entrepreneurial spirit.

If it os more about the letters next to money name and the doors those open then college is the only way to go. I've got lots of friends with lots of higher end degrees who also make good money but get to sit on committees and boards and making society wide impacting decisions.

Both valid and good course to take.

Ryan the Temp said:

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Quote:

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"i work with my hands" is outdated

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I work with my lips and make $75-$100 an hour doing it.

For all those people who love to **** all over the arts, I cannot imagine how sad and dreary the world would be without the arts.

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There are tons of ways to make good money. I have a masters in a stem. I think people go to college and assume if they get a high dollar degree they'll just automatically get a high paying job. I think that creates sloth. If you step away from that and truly make your own way the money is much better and you stay nimble.

I got out of school and made 6 figures in a few short years but all that did was make me lazy. It wasn't until that went to hell that I had to figure my own way where I realized I didn't need the degree and could have been making 3-5x what I was doing my own thing. It's hard and it requires dedication and commitment to business and your customers but id you do that, the money issue will be a non issue in short order.

curry97 said:

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My son is strongly considering going to TSTC and become a certified auto mechanic and also get either the Tesla certification or Stellantis certification. A local Chrysler/Dodge dealership was hiring a Stellantis certified technician recently paying up to 15k a month.

With all the money we have saved for a 4 year school, he has decided to take what is left and just invest it if he goes this route.

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Tell him to also check out instrumentation and electrical design. They work inside and make very good money.

Ryan the Temp said:

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Quote:

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"i work with my hands" is outdated

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I work with my lips and make $75-$100 an hour doing it.

For all those people who love to **** all over the arts, I cannot imagine how sad and dreary the world would be without the arts.

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I hear you. As a chemist I've had many professors who were left-handed. Their children often become musicians, writers, artists. Science and art are very right-brained. Engineering, not so much.

Unfortunately, the price tag of higher education has made it almost completely transactional. This has some very negative consequences, including contempt for the arts, teaching, and any degree that doesn't "pay out." It also drives students into early decisions to pursue disciplines they end up hating.

Government, universities, corporations, and consumers all share the blame for this system.

Ramdiesel said:

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infinity ag said:

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Ramdiesel said:

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Hoyt Ag said:

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If I was 18 and graduating HS, I would do exactly what my girlfriends son is doing. Heading to welding school for 6 months and then start his career. Her other son is a general contractor and has mor work than he can handle, and he is only 23 with a 4 man crew.

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My oldest son is just out of welding school making 32 dollars an hour at 19 years old. Not huge money but not peanuts either and he gets a lot of OT...

The company he works for has good benefits and training him to be a Millwright welder which can lead to really good money like at least 50 plus an hour... They are paying for his certs too. I'm happy for him, and it's just hard work and pretty clean living for him right now. Keeps him out of trouble...

Youngest son wanted to go into coding but can see what's happening with A.I., so he's going to school to be an Xray Tech and then going to follow up and get MRI cert...He's sort of following his mom, she's an Xray/ Mammo tech and will probably be able to get him a good job in MRI with her connections.

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Your oldest makes $32/hr. How much will be make in 5 years? 10 years? Maybe $50/hr? $60? How much more upside does he have? What about 20 years from now? Might they automate it? What about health risks? Will he be able to work in the same profession at 40? Can he get into other fields?

The software industry is going through some ups and downs but it will settle in some time. Don't believe what the AI companies are saying about replacing everyone with AI. It is their job to make statements to pump up their stock. If you are really interested and committed and not just in for the money, you have a future. AI can do only so much and the hype will soon begin to fade.

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My oldest son, honestly, has never been that good at school, and he loves working with his hands right now. He can make a lot of money welding; especially, if he becomes a Millwright and pipe welder. He is already a pipe fitter welder. Yes, it will be tough on his body, but he loves it for now. I think the max he might make working for someone else would be 60 dollars an hour regular pay, but would probably be a lot of Overtime available too. Workiing for himself like a pipe welder on the road could be 150,000 a year on up..I think welding will be pretty A.I. / Automation proof in most cases.

My youngest wanted to be a Coder/ Developer, and he can still do that down the line while making money as an Xray tech. Xray tech schedules are pretty flexible if he takes a PRN job...He can set his own schedule and go back to school to be a Developer.

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Looks like you went in with your eyes open.
Good luck to both your boys! I wish them the best.

Not all degree plans have equal value.

Not all students will be able to utilize their education or education credentials effectively relative to investment made.

It is a lot of burden to put on youth. I would suggest that for all but the top 1% or so of students who intend to pursue advanced degrees in higher demand pursuits, it may be better to Gen more functional education and go into the labor force a few years before deciding what education opportunities to pursue. If we can modify our social order around that standard, it may result in better prepared and more focused and self aware students.

MouthBQ98 said:

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Not all degree plans have equal value.

Not all students will be able to utilize their education or education credentials effectively relative to investment made.

It is a lot of burden to put on youth. I would suggest that for all but the top 1% or so of students who intend to pursue advanced degrees in higher demand pursuits, it may be better to Gen more functional education and go into the labor force a few years before deciding what education opportunities to pursue. If we can modify our social order around that standard, it may result in better prepared and more focused and self aware students.

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In Germany, Gap Year is loosely translated as "army."

I think it would seriously help to give the youth a dose of real world before they make education choices, let them earn some money, discover what they really want to do, and not just launch into an unsupervised extended childhood by going right into college from primary education.

MouthBQ98 said:

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I think it would seriously help to give the youth a dose of real world before they make education choices, let them earn some money, discover what they really want to do, and not just launch into an unsupervised extended childhood by going right into college from primary education.

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Tend to agree with you especially now.

Why do you think there are so many foreign truck drivers in the US?

US Citizens don't want to do it anymore and foreigners are willing to do it for less.

infinity ag said:

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The only thing I am worried is you are recommending our kids do HVAC, plumber, driver type jobs, and Kumar from India sends his son to Harvard and he heads to the Silicon Valley and becomes a gazillionaire.

Our kids work till they die, Kumar's son retires at 50 after selling his company./

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For every one Kumar there are 50,000 Sindeeps that fail and never get anywhere.

While there will be 49,000 HVAC kids that are just fine in life.

How do you reconcile the supposed decrease in college interest with the increase in applications/enrollments? TAMU and UT are much more difficult to get into than ever before.

agracer said:

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Why do you think there are so many foreign truck drivers in the US?

US Citizens don't want to do it anymore and foreigners are willing to do it for less.

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Fixed it for you...

I think it's much more the second part, than the first part.

But that's only part of the reason. I have a friend who drives trucks. He was working hard to get a job, after his previous employer went out of business. He was told that the foreigners will accept less pay, but they are also more apt to stay with one company, no matter how they're treated. They need the job to stay in this country...whereas a US Citizen is more likely to job-hop, looking for a better opportunity. Rather than being that 'better opportunity', many of the companies would rather hire lesser/cheaper drivers.

MouthBQ98 said:

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I think it would seriously help to give the youth a dose of real world before they make education choices, let them earn some money, discover what they really want to do, and not just launch into an unsupervised extended childhood by going right into college from primary education.

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Agreed, and I'm really glad I went off to be in the military before coming to A&M, and my career has taken a number of different turns since.

When I was getting my last undergrad degree, I was often asked by music professors to come talk to their students about the "real world" and my perspective being 40-something student among a bunch of 18-22 year-olds. I was always up front that they needed to ask themselves two questions: "What do I want to do?" and "How am I going to pay my bills?"

MouthBQ98 said:

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I think it would seriously help to give the youth a dose of real world before they make education choices, let them earn some money, discover what they really want to do, and not just launch into an unsupervised extended childhood by going right into college from primary education.

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I backpacked for almost 9 months before going to TAMU. Those were some of my happiest times in life, to be honest. I learned more about myself as an 18yo with a small backpack in foreign countries than I did the previous 18 years. Hell, I took 7 months off at the end of COVID after moving to Colorado to be a big game guide, going to Philippines to get my divemaster certification and build custom furniture. Pretty big shift from a top level of a F100 company. I would do it again 100x over. Most recruiters are jealous AF when they hear that when asking about a gap in my resume.

Today, I rent out spare rooms to seasonal workers for the Forest Service and BLM. 95% of them are fresh out of school (Ecology or Env. Studies majors). In the couple dozen I have hosted, only a handful have left that job for a adult job. Most saved up their money and went to travel or do mission work. The current tenants I have are both heading to Kenya in October to teach English for 6 or so months. There is so much more to life than money, and I think these kids are doing it right, at least what is best for them.

ts5641 said:

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HDeathstar said:

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In the past, Universities were for people dedicated to learning and the rich that could afford for their kids to go get a classical liberal education to make them more accepted in the society circles that they engaged in. I think this should still be the case.

However, I do think there should be post high school colleges that focus on certain trades. Drop the well-rounded education requirements of a university degree (PE, history, international elective, fine art elective, etc) and just focus on the trade. Engineering, science, accounting, finance, etc. The University model needs to be adjusted or go back to the original purpose of a university. Example: Go to a business only college, business only classes and graduate in 2-3 years. This would help so many people, especially people from the lower middle class trying to get their kids another step above their parents status.

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All the "well rounded education" requirements were implemented so the left could indoctrinate. We moved away from programs that actually prepared people to work and be productive members of society.

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The "well-rounded education" requirements were implemented because a lot of men who helped found the university system valued people who had studied the Bible and the components of a classical education. The "trade schools" of business, medicine, engineering all came later.

MouthBQ98 said:

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I think it would seriously help to give the youth a dose of real world before they make education choices, let them earn some money, discover what they really want to do, and not just launch into an unsupervised extended childhood by going right into college from primary education.

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There's some truth in this, but I think about how many guys I went to high school with who enlisted for four years to pay for college, then wound up not going or dropping out. A lot of young adults with disposable income start buying cars or houses or get married and have kids. Suddenly, they can't afford college anymore. Or they've somehow forgotten how to be a student and decide not to stick with it.

A gap year or maybe two working might not be a bad idea, but a lot of people won't go back to school.

It's losing value as there are too many people in college, too many graduates (many with BS degrees), and too many colleges and Us turning out college graduates who are idiots or who get a degree in something that is really just a hobby or a personal interest but not an actual profession, job or career.

Colleges and universities should be for technical, mathematical, scientific and related fields of endeavor including business.

And in obtaining those degrees they should be 3 year degrees with minimal "core" course curriculum in languages, history, liberal arts, etc. There can be "higher education" post HS colleges to study such things, but they have no place at a serious technical and professional school and learning environment.

All IMHO.

One thing is for damned sure, the fed. govt. should not be directly or even indirectly involved in the student loan game. Easy / free $$ / credit has driven up the price of tuition across the board. And we don't need people going into debt to get a sociology degree from SFSU or spend two years at a strip mall "college" and never learn anything or gain any value.

Worse yet, think about the community college systems. Taxpayers heavily subsidize those colleges and the my are mostly worthless.

agracer said:

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infinity ag said:

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The only thing I am worried is you are recommending our kids do HVAC, plumber, driver type jobs, and Kumar from India sends his son to Harvard and he heads to the Silicon Valley and becomes a gazillionaire.

Our kids work till they die, Kumar's son retires at 50 after selling his company./

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For every one Kumar there are 50,000 Sindeeps that fail and never get anywhere.

While there will be 49,000 HVAC kids that are just fine in life.

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But not in the US. Almost all Kumar's kids succeed. How many Indians do you see on welfare? Almost none. It will grow though as we have a habit of bringing in the worst from other countries to assuage our "white man's burden".

Remember we are talking US only.

AgGrad99 said:

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agracer said:

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Why do you think there are so many foreign truck drivers in the US?

US Citizens don't want to do it anymore and foreigners are willing to do it for less.

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Fixed it for you...

I think it's much more the second part, than the first part.

But that's only part of the reason. I have a friend who drives trucks. He was working hard to get a job, after his previous employer went out of business. He was told that the foreigners will accept less pay, but they are also more apt to stay with one company, no matter how they're treated. They need the job to stay in this country...whereas a US Citizen is more likely to job-hop, looking for a better opportunity. Rather than being that 'better opportunity', many of the companies would rather hire lesser/cheaper drivers.

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So we encourage slavery/bonded labor under a nicer term.

Then we lie to everyone that we support "free markets". We don't. We support short term gains while killing our long term (why bother, we will be dead anyway, screw our grandkids).

The country will not survive if all jobs are sent overseas. At some point, it will collapse.

we will need people to work in all the factories as America makes everything "at home" and reverts back to the industrial age while the rest of the world is progressing to the post-information age.

So why go to college when you want your kids to work in factories? Makes no sense.

Quote:

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So we encourage slavery/bonded labor under a nicer term.

Then we lie to everyone that we support "free markets". We don't. We support short term gains while killing our long term (why bother, we will be dead anyway, screw our grandkids).

The country will not survive if all jobs are sent overseas. At some point, it will collapse.

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Exact same thing that's happening in the high-tech sector, with all the H-1b Visas.

We act like we're importing people to make up for a shortage, but it's really no different than importing cheaper labor, who become dependent upon you.

infinity ag said:

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agracer said:

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infinity ag said:

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The only thing I am worried is you are recommending our kids do HVAC, plumber, driver type jobs, and Kumar from India sends his son to Harvard and he heads to the Silicon Valley and becomes a gazillionaire.

Our kids work till they die, Kumar's son retires at 50 after selling his company./

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For every one Kumar there are 50,000 Sindeeps that fail and never get anywhere.

While there will be 49,000 HVAC kids that are just fine in life.

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But not in the US. Almost all Kumar's kids succeed. How many Indians do you see on welfare? Almost none. It will grow though as we have a habit of bringing in the worst from other countries to assuage our "white man's burden".

Remember we are talking US only.

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Those Citizen kids haven't been here long enough yet to get replaced by a Foreigner with an H1B Visa. How many of them are in the work force? Most of the Indians I work with now have very young to teenage aged kids. Don't really know any that have adult aged kids here now. I know 1 that has a daughter in college.

Just saying they will eventually just be another citizen/ another number not protected from losing their jobs to cheaper labor just like the rest of us.. Also, their jobs will fall under the same labor laws we have, company's employees have to represent the population demographic, you can't hire too many Prashants without hiring a few Janes and Marias or you are discriminating.

They will probably eventually be statistically not much different than the rest of us as far as welfare goes.

Jarrin Jay said:

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It's losing value as there are too many people in college, too many graduates (many with BS degrees), and too many colleges and Us turning out college graduates who are idiots or who get a degree in something that is really just a hobby or a personal interest but not an actual profession, job or career.

Colleges and universities should be for technical, mathematical, scientific and related fields of endeavor including business.

And in obtaining those degrees they should be 3 year degrees with minimal "core" course curriculum in languages, history, liberal arts, etc. There can be "higher education" post HS colleges to study such things, but they have no place at a serious technical and professional school and learning environment.

All IMHO.

One thing is for damned sure, the fed. govt. should not be directly or even indirectly involved in the student loan game. Easy / free $$ / credit has driven up the price of tuition across the board. And we don't need people going into debt to get a sociology degree from SFSU or spend two years at a strip mall "college" and never learn anything or gain any value.

Worse yet, think about the community college systems. Taxpayers heavily subsidize those colleges and the my are mostly worthless.

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History should be taught and required every semester you're in college. Especially the communism parts and the 100M deaths parts.

If I could live a second life again starting at age 18, I would go learn a trade for two years, and then go to school year round for business, while doing part time work. Take 12 hour semesters. It would be busy, but man, you would be way ahead at graduation. Could almost start your own business immediately.