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i have seen your act across multiple boards and i'm not interested in discussing this with you, so no need to articulate a response. you're a caveman. just helping out those who haven't realized it yet.

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So pointing out the facts of what happened in this case, as well as the fact that it happens in other locker rooms (as Ninja has said here and Nate Newton did on the radio yesterday) makes me a caveman?

People like you lack the intellectual curiosity to find out what happen and take the lazy way of letting others form your opinion for you.

This was not just Incognito being a psycho. Nor was it just him and Pouncey bullying Martin. The whole OLine was involved. And yes, and others have stated here, Martin seems to lack the mental toughness required in the NFL.

[This message has been edited by AgBeliever (edited 11/5/2013 10:26a).]

I appreciate AgBelievers consistency on the issue at least. When some Texans fan Ags called for Randy's job, some people on the A&M football board talked about how wrong it was to take someone's job away, how much of a good kid he is, and how wrong it is to boo someone. Then they went back to bemoaning the pussification of america.

This complaint travels generations though. Modern medicine allows old people to live longer. Old people forget how awful old times were, and constantly reminisce about the old days; perhaps their own grandfather telling them what a he-man he was. Feeling small compared to their own grandfathers, old men complain about the current generation's "softness". We'll all be doing this one day as will our grandsons, so the cycle will continue.

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Not condoning what Incognito, Pouncey and apparently the rest of the Miami OL did. However, most of this apparently stems from the Las Vegas trip that Martin was told he had to pay for. Even though he coughed up the 15k to pay for the trip, he chose not to go and it looks like the rest of the Miami OL saw that as a slap in the face.

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how is this a slap in the face? if someone pitched in 15k to my Vegas trip i certainly wouldn't be offended.

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I think the rest of the OLine (at least those that went on the Vegas trip) took it as Martin didn't want to be associated with them. It wasn't just Incognito and Pouncey that refused to eat with him in the cafeteria. It was everyone at that table. They all stood up and left once Martin sat down.

This whole thing is childish and could have been addressed internally imo. Yes, Incognito and Pouncey are a couple of thugs but does anyone really think Martin's life was in danger? Or that he would even be seriously injured physically? He's a starter on that OLine, or at least was. What teammate endangers another teammate's ability to play?

Personally I think Sherman should have stepped in at some point and said to the OLine, "Okay, you guys stop this bullsh**." And should have said to Martin, "You stop your whining. We've all gone through this."

I guess the good from this is that it will lead to more conversations about bullying in our society.

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you are completely wrong about this, but i'm not sure how i can make it any clearer that my opinion of you is not totally defined by your take on this particular issue.

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get used to it. Believer is a ****ing troll

Another well thought out post Token.

Token - I disagree. He's not a troll. He really believes the crap he spews

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I guess the good from this is that it will lead to more conversations about bullying in our society.

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why do we even need more conversations about bullying when your solution of "stop whining" and "don't be a baby" is more than sufficient?

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I guess the good from this is that it will lead to more conversations about bullying in our society.

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Wonderful, just what we need, more conversations about the currently most overused word in the English language. So sick of every interaction where one buttercup is mean to another buttercup getting turned into a soapbox sermon on bullying. Bullying is real, and it sucks. But the constant refrain of "bully bully bully" to every jerky (read normal) teenage action is not helping the kids who are actually being bullied.

And on topic, extorting a coworker for money, calling them the n-word and threatening to kill them are not bullying. Those actions are against the law in every workplace in America, and should be punished.

I think we can all agree that Roger Goodell needs to pretend like he always really cared about bullying and hazing, suspend Coach Philbin for a year because he had to be involved, take away a few draft picks and fine the Dolphins hundreds of thousands of dollars. And lets suspend the team captains indefinitely just because.

Butthurt saints fans never disappoint. Did Philbin lie during the investigation?

[This message has been edited by BMX Bandit (edited 11/5/2013 3:26p).]

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maybe i'm clueless but what do puerto ricans do on the 15th?

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After reading this entire thread this is the only thing I care about.

Incognito has been a scumbag his entire life. No surprises.

LOL @ AgBeliever

There are now reports surfacing that Incognito stole Ryan Tannehill's credit card and went and bought a jet ski with it because "Ryan owned him for blocking for him"

I'll hang up and listen.

Now there are reports that Incognito was asked by coaches to "toughen up" Martin.

**** just got real

Then Tannehill is a puss for not calling cops or calling this out. What are the facts and timeline behind that?

This is more and more turning into a bunch of people standing by and watching one bad apple rape everyone around him and no one says anything.

The whole organization including everyone on the team is a bunch of puss. Call the police OR you take Incognito behind the barn, beat his ass and you make it clear to him this bs won't be tolerated. What in the high holy hell has happened to self policing?

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Then Tannehill is a puss for not calling cops or calling this out. What are the facts and timeline behind that?

This is more and more turning into a bunch of people standing by and watching one bad apple rape everyone around him and no one says anything.

The whole organization including everyone on the team is a bunch of puss. Call the police OR you take Incognito behind the barn, beat his ass and you make it clear to him this bs won't be tolerated. What in the high holy hell has happened to self policing?

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This x1000! I just can't believe adults are putting up with this crap. "But Incognito is crazy and he might shoot you or worse!" So, you just keep taking it? What kind of life is that?

Incognito is Debo. LOL @ what has become of the Dolphins franchise.

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Now there are reports that Incognito was asked by coaches to "toughen up" Martin.

**** just got real

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That is interesting. I've had a feeling this whole time that there was a general sense that Martin didn't have what it takes and they were trying to get him to step up or quit. Even though Incognito is clearly an a-hole there were too many people involved for it to be only a personal thing between them. There seems like a Code Red vibe all along.

Maybe Martin decided "okay, you win, I'll quit." and decided to blow the whole thing up on his way out. After all, if his career is over anyway why not take out the organization and people who made his life hell?

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Now there are reports that Incognito was asked by coaches to "toughen up" Martin.

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The guy who reported that was on TBD this morning. He basically said everyone in the lockerroom loved Incognito, he's the typical guy you hate if he's an opponent and you love if he's your teammate. He will always have your back. Said he and Martin hung out together and were part of the same circle along with Pouncey. Martin had been told by the coaches he needed to get stronger and tougher and was aware of that during the offseason. When Martin didn't show up for "voluntary" OTA's, they told Incognito it was his responsibility to help Martin become a "football player." The guy went on to say that Martin was a different cat from the moment he arrived.

He still said Incognito was in the wrong for some of the stuff he said in the voicemails, but now even some of those allegations are it was more banter while they were out hanging out at a Hooter's or something.

Incognito sounds like a grade a jackass, but as this story keeps ebbing and flowing, it sounds like it's moving back towards a guy that couldn't handle typical NFL lockerroom stuff.

I believe someone from CBS sports wrote last night or this morning that Martin had even texted Incognito saying it was the lockerroom and the NFL life that he had trouble adjusting to.

This is an absolute mess for Miami.

[This message has been edited by Bunk Moreland (edited 11/6/2013 8:49a).]

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There seems like a Code Red vibe all along

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funny you used this statement. This was asked by Tiki when the guy who reported that was on this morning and he specifically said it wasn't like that. He said the coaches wanted Incognito to take him under his wing and make him a "football player" and if Incognito took it too far that wasn't under the orders of coaches. They only went to him because he was the leader and alpha dog of the locker room and the O-line, they knew he had already taken Martin in with his group in the past and that the coaches had already put Martin on notice in the offseason he had to get stronger and tougher and Martin knew he did.

[This message has been edited by Bunk Moreland (edited 11/6/2013 8:50a).]

is Turner still the dolphins' o-line coach? His personality would explain a few things

Glad to have more info from the interview, that helps. I think the real issue is that just like hazing in the military, firefighters, etc, there's a lot of stuff that's really completely inexcusable mixed on with the "good bull" that toughens guys up and makes them part of a team. So when a floodlight gets shined on it all, outside people and investigators don't really look at the nuance, they look at the overall picture and the overall picture is bad. I mean really, how is using your quarterbacks. Credit card to buy a jet ski contributing to teamwork? It's just an excuse to be an ahole. I believe completely that tough conditions can mature people, but gratuitous crap just pisses them off. Obviously Martin was pissed off enough to walk offscreen toss a bomb behind him. He may be a titty baby, to quote one of the philosophers up-thread, but he has the right to be pissed at the way he was treated. The Miami team - and Incognito - took it too far. You can argue that Martin took it too far by filing a complaint, but that's what happens when your plan to "toughen" up your teammate is orchestrated with the maturity and finesse of a 9th grade girls cheerleading squad.

Well, the jet-ski thing...it's not like this stuff hasn't been done before. There have been entire O-lines who have basically requested rolex's and gifts like that from their mega-rich QB for protecting him and/or the "expected" steak dinners the QB will treat them to throughout the year.

We all know the $54k check Dez was left to pay when he was a rookie.

I think that stuff is the worst by far. Hazing, initiation...you can't judge as an outsider into what makes a lockerroom. But when it comes to money, i think it goes too far, and money has been behind a lot of this stuff for years. But now that Martin walked away, we heard about emotional issues, then it came out this way, the "bullying" aspect around it has made everyone quick to judge and act astonished that Incognito would ask for money. Problem(and fact) is, this has been happening for years all over the NFL and basically laughed off. But now that the word "bullying" got attached to it before facts have come out, it has become a different story.

I'm just sitting back and taking it all in as it comes. Yesterday morning I would have said this was all on Incognito going over the top based on what had come out. Now I'm trending back toward the middle in this whole issue.

IMO, it's not going to look good for the Dolphins, and they should tread lightly because this has swung back in the direction of it seems like something that has happened in every locker room over the last 20 years with mega contracts.

NFL needs to do something about the money thing though. No way in hell that should ever be used in initiation or right of passage or hazing. It's not a rookie's fault he got paid big for being a top draft pick.

Oh, and agree completely on Turner.

It is interesting that besides Turner, both Sherman and Philbin are former offensive line coaches, and all 3 are pretty damn good. Or at least have had some success.


If I had to guess what happened, I think Incognito got the suggestion to toughen up Martin, which appears to be needed.
However, Incognito took it over the line, and when combined with some other crap that goes on in a lot of NFL locker rooms, it looks real bad.

plus the racial stuff. Can't go there

What I want to know is why someone like Incognito, who is batting 1.000 in the "out of control, bad seed" department at EVERY SINGLE STOP HE'S MADE IN HIS CAREER - COLLEGE AND PRO, would be put on Miami's leadership council and looked to to take the lead on Martin's development/toughening-up? Without exception, every team that has had this guy on their roster at some point is on record for saying what a lousy, out-of-control guy he was.

plus the racial stuff. Can't go there
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On SVP yesterday, they were interviewing Hasselback, and he said that you basically heard that word MULTIPLE times a day and it didn't mean anything. Locker room culture is completely different than this politically correct world we live in.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9932264/florida-law-provide-big-payday-jonathan-martin-sue-miami-dolphins-richie-incognito

Under Florida law, because Incognito was bullied/threatened/intimidated and race was a factor, Martin can sue Incognito and get triple what his salary COULD HAVE BEEN.

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A Florida law -- Evidencing Prejudice While Committing Offense -- provides the legal foundation for a civil lawsuit that would seek to assess monetary damages against Incognito. It provides for money damages for anyone who "has been intimidated or threatened" on the basis of "race or color." News accounts indicate there is little doubt Incognito has been threatening and intimidating Martin for many months, and that a portion of his attacks were based on race.

Incognito's use of the N-word and his threats "to kill" would appear to qualify Martin for money damages at Incognito's expense.

It gets even better for Martin. The Florida law provides for triple damages -- yes, triple damages -- and would allow Martin to collect his legal fees from Incognito. These provisions could produce a significant jury verdict for Martin at Incognito's expense.

Martin's current salary is a bit more than $600,000. If he were to return to the NFL and enjoy a typical career as an offensive lineman, he would be expected to earn another $5 million or $6 million. If his career is worth $5 million, and Incognito's threats ended the career, Martin could collect as much as $15 million. Legal fees could be added to the jury award and push the total close to $17 million. Martin's career under this Florida law may be more valuable in court than it is on the field.

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On SVP yesterday, they were interviewing Hasselback, and he said that you basically heard that word MULTIPLE times a day and it didn't mean anything. Locker room culture is completely different than this politically correct world we live in.

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That candy-ass cracker doesn't know what he is talking about.

Pouncey coming out basically completely in defense of Incognito.

Like many former players have said regarding the coaches Request to “toughen up” Martin – Incognito could have been told that and STILL crossed the line with his approach. Mike Golic talked about how when they needed to toughen guys up, they did it on the field, even to the point of picking fights to see if they’d stand up for themselves or mix it up. He said that never crossed the line to outside of the field like anything Incognito did. And when you consider stupid stuff like the whole O-Line getting up and walking away when Martin sits down in the cafeteria, you realize just how childish Incognito was.

Imagine what happens if Incognito had actually killed him. That's the part of the story nobody seems to be talking about.

Two things - one, yes, I completely agree that in the locker room racial and probably sexual slurs are common and accepted and its a different world. But like I said, when an outside light get shone on it, it's not really defensible. That why you don't get a wild card like Incognito to be your sensai because he obviously didn't know when to stop.

Two, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the fact that Miami teammates are defending Incognito. If he goes down a lot of folks are going down too. It seems to me that a lot if the guys involved in this really lost their perspective. Like the cafeteria thing. Childish and did nothing but convince Martin to go nuclear.

Now imagine she's white.