According to carlise

http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba/news/story?id=6514530

[This message has been edited by Ags #1 (edited 5/9/2011 10:54p).]

This should be fun.

Jordan
Russell
Oscar
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Hakeem
Baylor
Cousey
West
Havlicek
Dr. J
Isiah
Pettit
Duncan
Robinson
Kobe
Barkley
Malone
Clyde
Pistol Pete
Gervin
Moses
Pippen
Stockton

Now, pick 18 of those that I listed off the top of my head that Dirk is better than.


Dirk is on the level of George Gervin or Pete Maravich. Game changing scorer. No rings. Dirk may be the best player to never lead the league in any major stat category (points, rebounds, blocks, steals, assists, FG%, FT%, 3FG%) or win a title. So that's something.

Typical coach talking up his players. No one actually thinks Dirk is in the conversation for top 10 all time.

Carlisle went on to say that it was because of his coaching that Dirk was so great. Oh wait that was Avery who once implied that.

Carlisle is entitled to his opinion. He played on the 80s Celtics and has been one of the best coaches in the league the past decade. I don't mind having a coach who doesn't tear down his players to the media.

Or maybe Carlisle is a Bill Simmons fan

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To Dirk Nowitzki, who reinvented himself over the years as a fiery competitor with the single most unstoppable move in basketball: his foul line post-up game that always seems to result in (A) him whirling around his defender and getting a layup, (B) him spinning around, sticking his elbows right in the defender's mug and launching a jumper that starts over Dirk's head, or (C), him fading away with an awkward-looking fade-away that has to rank alongside Hakeem's Dream Shake and McHale's mega-fallaway in the Shots That Seem Technically Impossible But Go In Anyway pantheon. Do you have any idea how that shot goes in? Me neither. I also have no idea how to stop that post-up game. Double him and he kicks to an open shooter. Single him and he scores. You can't win. Two more years at this level and Judge Simmons will begrudgingly have to start taking "Would you rather have nine transcendent years from Bird or 13 killer Nowitzki years plus the five after that when he reinvents himself as the greatest version of mid-1990s Sam Perkins ever?" arguments. Crap.

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He is an idiot if he truly believes that

Skillset vs skillset? One on one?

You think Moses Malone is better than Dirk? Drexler? Sure they had excellent careers, but you think if Dirk jumped in a timemachine and subbed for them he couldnt contribute more?

Anyone who wouldn't take 9 great years (all nine as All-NBA First Team) with three MVPs, three titles and two Finals MVPs over 15 great years and no titles is a moron.

Of couse, I would say Bird had 10 great seasons. First 9 and then 11, when he went for 24/10/8 in 75 games shooting .473/.333./930. Bird's rookie season, he went for 21/10/5/2 and won ROY.

Dirk isn't close to Bird. Bird is a better rebounder, passer and defender. Bird also has a career scoring of 24.3 (Dirk's 23.0) and a high of 29.9 (Dirk's 26.6 - Bird had three seasons higher than that.)

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You think Moses Malone is better than Dirk?

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Absolutely.

Moses won a ring and was Finals MVP. He was also MVP three times, led the league in rebounding 6 times and even had a season where he averaged 31 and 15.

Dirk has won the MVP once, is a great scorer, made it to the Finals once where he and his team had one of the biggest chokes ever, then followed that up by winning 67 games and losing to an 8 seed in the first round.

It takes a head in the sand to not realize to officiating that GSW series. MM is more physical but put them 1v1 or skill vs skill and it would be a very different story.

Go pull MM from 1980 into the league today and he would look like a Dampier/Fortson.

...Player.............Career Points
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar38,387
2. Karl Malone........36,928
3. Michael Jordan.....32,292
4. Wilt Chamberlain...31,419
5. Shaquille O'Neal...28,596
6. Kobe Bryant........27,868
7. Moses Malone.......27,409
8. Elvin Hayes........27,313
9. Hakeem Olajuwon....26,946
10. Oscar Robertson...26,710
11. Dominique Wilkins.26,668
12. John Havlicek.....26,395
13. Alex English......25,613
14. Reggie Miller.....25,279
15. Jerry West........25,192
16. Patrick Ewing.....24,815
17. Allen Iverson.....24,368
18. Charles Barkley...23,757
19. Robert Parish.....23,334
20. Kevin Garnett.....23,323
21. Adrian Dantley....23,177
22. Elgin Baylor......23,149
23. Dirk Nowitzki.....22,792
24. Ray Allen.........22,286
25. Clyde Drexler.....22,195
26. Gary Payton.......21,813
27. Larry Bird........21,791
28. Tim Duncan........21,663
29. Hal Greer.........21,586
30. Paul Pierce.......21,410

the only person who drags this board down more than Simplebay is GuitarSoup. Well done sir, you have truly mastered the laugh/cry

Dirk has a very real shot at the top 5 all time scouring. Then where would you put him?

With no ring? Not in the top 10

What about one ring?

The quote

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In my opinion, he’s a top 10 player in NBA history because of the uniqueness of his game and how he’s carried this franchise on his back for over a decade,’ Mavericks coach Rick Carlisle told “ESPN First Take” on Monday. ‘He’s just right. He’s leading the team. His shot-making is great. He’s passing the ball great. He’s one of the guys that’s directing traffic for us defensively.’

One could make a strong case that Nowitzki has been the NBA’s MVP of the first two rounds of the playoffs. The 7-footer has averaged 26.5 points and has consistently come through as a closer, putting up double figures in the fourth quarter of half the Mavs’ wins this postseason.


He also twice hit go-ahead shots in the final two minutes against the Los Angeles Lakers, whom the Mavericks swept out of the playoffs with a 122-86 victory in Game 4 of the Western Conference semifinals on Sunday.

‘When he’s on the floor, we feel like we can beat anybody,’ Carlisle said. ‘He’s that good.’

Nowitzki is one of four players in NBA history with career postseason averages of at least 25 points and 10 rebounds.”

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This is a coach trying to build up his superstar on the Skip Bayless show. You guys are trolling deep today. Keep trying to come up with creative ways to bash the Mavs.

Carlisle and NBA/Boston Historian Bill Simmons are entitled to their opinions. Simmons especially is looking at the future. If Dirk has 4 more seasons at this level then he ties Kareem for most all-time all-NBA selections with 15 (unless Kobe has already passed him)

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 5/10/2011 12:47a).]

Opini

Stupid iPhone

Anyway, these are just opinions. Hard to argue that Dirk is one of the greatest players, not having a ring is the only argument and we all know it takes more than one guy to do that.

If the lack of a championship ring is the crux of the argument against how good a player is in a team sport, it's a pretty ****ty argument.

Yet it seems like all the greats have led their team to at least one championship.

Dirk isn't done. I can't imagine a scenario where Dirk doesn't end up on a title team before his career is over. And this year, he certainly has a chance.

It's just Carlisle pumping up his player. Good for him.

And it's just Spurs fans knocking down Dirk.
If Mavericks win the title this year, they will just move the bar. Just one title? You can't be one of the greatest of all-time with just one ring...

I see Dirk having a Dominique Wilkins-esque legacy. Obviously, their skill sets are different. But they are both once-in-a-generation scorers who play limited defense and have never won the big one (Dirk TBD). A little overrated during their careers and inevitably underrated after they retire.

Dirk isn't one of the top 10 players in league history, but he probably is one of the top 20 and definitely is one of the top 25. And barring injury he still has at least a few prime years left to enhance his resume.

And as for great players leading their teams to a championship, by that definition there have only been 9 great players in the league over the last 30 years. Magic, Moses, Bird, Isiah, Jordan, Olajuwon, Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe are the only players that have "led" their teams to championships over that span. I have no problem putting Dirk behind all of those guys except Isiah.

how can you put him there with zero championships?

question, are there any guys in the top 10 without a championship? Are malone or barkley in the top 10? most would argue no.

is dirk better than malone or barkley? is dirk in the top 25?...probably.

I was hoping your team getting swept would get you off of these boards...

If you can't recognize how great Dirk is, you are a fool. It doesn't matter where he is in the top 50,40,30,20, etc. He is a great, great player.

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how can you put him there with zero championships?

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How can I put him where? In the top 25 where even you concede he belongs?

Championships are important, but they are not the be all, end all of determining the greatness of an individual player in a team game. By that measure, Jose Conseco is a better baseball player than Barry Bonds. And you certainly can't think that Richard Hamilton and/or Chauncey Billups, the two candiates for best player/leader of the 2004 Pistons are better than Dirk? If so, I'll stop debating right now because debating with a zealot who is arguing based an agenda and not the facts is a waste of time.


Of your list, Dirk is better than:

Baylor
Cousey
Dr. J
Isiah
Pettit
Robinson
Barkley
Malone
Clyde
Pistol Pete
Gervin
Pippen
Stockton

As guy who clearly likes to knock Dirk, if the worst you can say about him is that he is only a top 20 all-time player and not a top 10 guy, oh well.


[This message has been edited by Mutual_Friend (edited 5/10/2011 9:48a).]

Dirk is a badass. It doesn't matter where you arbitrarily rank him on the all-time list, he's a historically great player regardless.

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Of your list, Dirk is better than:

Baylor
Cousey
Dr. J
Isiah
Pettit
Robinson
Barkley
Malone
Clyde
Pistol Pete
Gervin
Pippen
Stockton

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Uh, no.

Where did i say Dirk wasn't great? where did ANYONE say dirk wasn't great?

That's not the topic. The topic is justifying him being in the top 10 all time. he's not even close.

if he wins a championship....he's still not in it.

Uh, yes.

and Mutual_Friend's post is idiotic. dirk is better than all of them? holy hell.

So if, IF, Dirk wins a ring this year, it somehow makes the first 11+ seasons in the NBA better?

It's a coach's opinion. You can't gauge a player on championships in this conversation. If Dirk and Duncan traded teams their entire career and Dirk had 4 titles with San Antonio and Duncan had none with the Mavs what would you say? Would the Spurs still have those 4 titles? Would the Mavs still have none? What if the Mavs had Pop this whole time and the Spurs had Nellie, Avery, and Carlisle? It's an apples to oranges argument. If you say he can't win the big one how do you argue that he is one of 4 players in HISTORY to average 25 and 10 in the playoffs? You can say he's choked, but he's had one bad series.

I don't think he's one of the top 10 ever, but he is one of the most unique players ever. These arguments are arguments because they can't be won by either side, they are all based on opinion, and there are too many factors to let anyone be right.

Obviously Dirk is not a top-10 player. I don't even know why this is a discussion, other than the usual suspects finding any opportunity to dump on the Mavericks (because their usual playoff-failure ammunition isn't available at the moment).


Hell even Tim Duncan isn't top 10 all-time, it would be hard to rank Dirk up there. Carlisle just giving his star player a little juice - he's gonna need Dirk to be a baller no matter who we play next round.

If refs called Duncan elbow hook in the post he would have zero claim to be a good player either.

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That's not the topic. The topic is justifying him being in the top 10 all time.

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Other than Carlisle, who was talking up his player, who said he is in the top 10?

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he's not even close

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Top 20 is pretty close to top 10.

So in conclusion, you are using Carlisle and his puffing as a straw man opponent to debate the other side of a position that no one on this board is taking. Well done.