quote:

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Okay. So what was the purpose of posting Gottlieb's musings on Dirk?

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It does happen to be relevant to the subject at hand, no matter how much credence is given to his opinion.

Guitarsoup calls Bill Simmons a moron regarding his opinion on Larry Bird vs Dirk but Doug Gottlieb is worth quoting.

I was surprised national media was talking about this non-story.

I haven't listened to Gottlieb enough to have any opinion on him.

quote:

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It does happen to be relevant to the subject at hand, no matter how much credence is given to his opinion.

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Good point.

Rick Carlisle, a head basketball coach who's been associated with the NBA spanning 4 decades now, thinks Dirk is top 10 all time. You cry-laugh at this preposterous notion. Most agree he's just propping his guy up.

Doug Gottlieb, some dude who apparently played basketball everywhere except the NBA, thinks Dirk isn't even top 50. Personally I think this statement is more preposterously cry-laugh-worthy than saying Dirk is top 10.

Do you agree with Gottlieb?

[This message has been edited by Judge (edited 5/10/2011 9:41p).]

Where I would rank Dirk would depend on how you want to define the ranking system. Are we talking about their body of work in the NBA? Talking about how they would match up one-on-one with the other greats?

If we are going to hold the old timers to today's standards of play, Russell probably wouldn't make my top 20. Maybe not even top 50. How good do you think a 6'9 210lb center would do today? A guy like Howard at 7' 280 would destroy him. I don't care how talented he was, I think everyone in the 60s would get destroyed by today's players. Same thing with teams like the 72 Dolphins in football. The 0-16 Lions would beat the **** out of them. Russell is about the same size as Antoine Wright. Could you imagine AW playing center in the NBA?

I would generally put Dirk somewhere between 20 and 50th best all time. I know that's vague, but so is ranking players.

quote:

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I would generally put Dirk somewhere between 20 and 50th best all time. I know that's vague, but so is ranking players.

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You had him clearly out of the top 50 in 2009 and now you're not willing to back it up. What changed?

In our 2009 thread I had him in the late 30's. Simmons' book came out later that year and he had him at 38. In the revised book he moved him up to the low 30s and has said recently that he'll move him past Malone and Barkley (#19 and 18) if he continues to consistently put up the All-NBA level stats and carry the team to 50 win seasons for a few more years. I said close to the same thing in 2009 - that his longevity would solidify his legacy.

You on the other hand were against moving Dirk into the top 50 regardless of how many All-NBA seasons he maintained. Why don't you show some consistency? No, just try to deflect by saying it's too hard to really rank players at all.

Why even try discussing it with you, IF? No matter what I say, you will try to turn that into an attack. Its pretty clear you are more interested in me than the subject. I don't think it is possible to have a rational, intelligent conversation with you about this subject. You seem to prefer to make it about me than about the subject.

If I disagree with you, you attack me. If I agree with you, you attack me. Why bother?

Good arguments can be made to put Dirk in the top 50 and to keep Dirk out of the top 50.

For:
Team success
Carried a team, and was the only constant for 10 years of success
All-NBA First team 4x, All-NBA 10x
Unique and talented scorer with near unstoppable moves
MVP
A bunch of signature clutch plays like the 3-point play in game 7 of the WCF in 06
Never failed to make the playoffs in his prime
Extremely durable
High PER (career 15th all-time)
Is a good guy, and never seemed to be dirty or ill-tempered.

Against:
Not a good defender.
Not a great rebounder.
Never led the league in any stat category.
Was primarily a scorer, but never led in scoring. Only finished in top 5 twice - both times as 4th.
No titles.
Lost in the Finals to an inferior team.
Lost in the first round as a 67-win first seed.
Signature meltdowns (like 2-14 in Finals game 4)
4 first-round exits

Does that sound about right?

Ahhh yes there he goes again playing the victim and making it personal when exposed in a debate. Well played as always. I stand by my comments and research from the 2009 thread linked on page 2. Put this thread in the archives

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 5/10/2011 11:29p).]

The only person making this personal is you. Everyone else here seems to be attempting actual discussion of the topic at hand. For some reason, you seem unable to do that and would rather make things about me.

quote:

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I don't think it is possible to have a rational, intelligent conversation with you about this subject.

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Guitarsoup
You are the last poster on here that should say this......
You put your heart into everything..... most artist do....


Dirk is in no way a top 10 of all time.... maybe top 20.


[This message has been edited by BBDP (edited 5/11/2011 7:01a).]

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The only person making this personal is you. Everyone else here seems to be attempting actual discussion of the topic at hand. For some reason, you seem unable to do that and would rather make things about me.

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Just because someone calls you out by name and makes you own your words, doesn't mean they "follow you around" and "personally attack" you.

Edit: The above was not meant to be a personal attack in any way.

[This message has been edited by Judge (edited 5/11/2011 8:30a).]

Sorry, but if you are taking the time to dig up threads that are years old, you probably aren't looking for a real discussion.

Lets follow IF's logic:

About me:

quote:

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You had him clearly out of the top 50 in 2009 and now you're not willing to back it up.

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You on the other hand were against moving Dirk into the top 50 regardless of how many All-NBA seasons he maintained.

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Note: I've never said that.

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Why don't you show some consistency?

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Gotcha.


IF02 about IF02:

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In our 2009 thread I had him in the late 30's.

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IF02 in the 2009 thread:

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Dirk is arguably Top 50 right now, and will definitely be Top 50 if his career winds down on an even pace.

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Yeah, "arguably top 50 is a lot different than late 30s. But remember it how you will. Arguably top 50s and late 30s certainly isn't consistent.

IF02 on Bill Simmons:

quote:

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Simmons' book came out later that year and he had him at 38. In the revised book he moved him up to the low 30s and has said recently that he'll move him past Malone and Barkley (#19 and 18) if he continues to consistently put up the All-NBA level stats and carry the team to 50 win seasons for a few more years.

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So basically, IF02 and Bill Simmons both get the benefit of moving Dirk up in the standings and revising your statements based on more seasons and more data.

However, if I revise my standings even a few spots over the course of a few years, then I am not being consistent and refuse to back things up.

Like I said, it is an argument I can't win because the other party has no intention of acting rationally. They are only seeking only to spend who knows how much time digging up old threads in a pathetic attempt to attack me, then twist things I say, yet won't give me the same benefit of revision over the course of years and more data that they afford to themselves and to others.

But none of that is new with IF02. Same old same old.

i may have been jumping the gun on lebron, but in maybe as little as 3 years he could be "better" than dirk...at least statistically. i think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that says lebron isn't more talented right now than dirk has ever been.


that being said....are there really mavs fans who think dirk is unquestionably, unanimously better than KG? really? and it's not close?

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except for:
defense
rebounding
passing
shooting (FG%)
blocked shots
getting his team further in the postseason

oh and and winning championships

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What the hell are you talking about??????

Before he went to Boston Kevin Garnet had won exactly two whole playoff series.

Before he went to Boston Kevin Garnet had won exactly two whole playoff series.

Before he went to Boston Kevin Garnet had won exactly two whole playoff series.

We've seen what a franchise led by Kevin Garnett can accomplish.....and thats only one year in the playoffs with any success.

Kevin Garnett has been in the NBA for 15 years and won 10 playoff series.

Dirk has been in the NBA for 12 years and won 11 playoff series.

So come again?

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that being said....are there really mavs fans who think dirk is unquestionably, unanimously better than KG? really? and it's not close?

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They went head to head in 2002 playoffs and Dirk averaged 34 points and 16 rebounds in leading the Mavs to a sweep.

KG was the face of a franchise and in his 11 years in Minnesota won a whopping two playoff series.

We've seen what a team built around Kevin Garnett accomplished....and except for one year it wasnt that much.

Kevin Garnett has never had a 40 point game in the playoffs.

Kevin Garnett wasnt even the best player on his championship team. That was Paul Peirce.

During Boston championship Kevin Garnett averaged 20 ppg and 10 rebounds.

In Dirk worst two playoff series (Houston 2005 and Golden State 2007) he averaged 19 points and 11 rebounds.

If you look at head to head matchups between the two Dirk dominates Kevin Garnett in wins.


If Kevin Garnett was so much better......then shouldnt his teams have done better then the Mavericks?

Dont sit here and tell me that Chauncey Billips, Latrell Sprewell, Sam Cassell, Stephone Marbury arent some good supporting players.

Chauncey and Latrell are easily equal to Steve Nash and Michael Finley

The Timberwolves were good, but they were never great.

[This message has been edited by Kellso (edited 5/11/2011 9:29a).]

Kellso - there are obviously all kinds of arguments against (the Robert Horry argument or the team sport argument) but the bottom line is that teams will judge a player by the fact that he got a ring as a star on a team. I think rightfully so. Garnett has that, even if he had to whine his way out of Minnesota (and really, who wouldn't?) Also, I hate Garnett, but he has a better resume. MVP, DPOY, All-NBA, All-Defense, rebounding titles, Championship.

The things that work in Dirk's favor that most people [including Mavs fans] don't make enough of are:
Consistency: They have been a 50-win team for a decade, and Dirk has always been the catalyst. Since 2003, they have been a title contender almost every year.
Dirk never failed to make the playoffs in his prime. Back in the 80s, pretty much everyone made the playoffs. Even now, it is most of the teams, but it is still important to note. Garnett missed the playoffs in his prime. Hakeem missed the playoffs in his prime. Dirk never did. Dominique missed the playoffs in his prime twice and only had over 50 wins twice.

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Chauncey and Latrell are easily equal to Steve Nash and Michael Finley

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See, you lose arguments with statements like that. Chauncey was a 9 point scorer off the bench his first year in Minn and a 12 point scorer as a starter part time his second year in Minn. He wasn't the Finals MVP player yet. That's why Minnesota was his 4th team in 3 years at that point in his career. Sprewell was there for his last two years when he averaged 16 and 15ppg. Sprewell in his prime wasn't as good as Finley in his prime, and a 34 year old Sprewell certainly isn't as good as a 29 year old Finley. Sprewell had one good season for a 30-win Golden State team.

Garnett is one of the all-time great defensive PFs in NBA History. He is a punk as *****, but his defensive prowess is undeniable. And while he was never the scorer that Dirk is, he was an efficient scorer (lifetime 50% shooter) that averaged 20+ppg in 9 straight seasons.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 5/11/2011 9:40a).]

So Dirk dominated one of the best defenders in NBA History to the tune of 34 ppg?

Honestly, I can't even remember who was gaurding Dirk back in the KG Timberwolves days.

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Dont sit here and tell me that Chauncey Billips, Latrell Sprewell, Sam Cassell, Stephone Marbury arent some good supporting players.

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I think you just lost your own argument by bringing these guys up.

You would need Shawn Bradley's body with the athleticism of Blake Griffin to be able to alter the shot of an awkward 7'er that can make off-balance fade aways from 20 feet consistently. If you are tall and can nail a quick turnaround fadeaway from mid-range, you have an unstoppable shot when it is falling. Just ask Larry Bird and Hakeem Olajuwon.

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Guitarsoup still won't own up to his own words.

quote:

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quote:
You on the other hand were against moving Dirk into the top 50 regardless of how many All-NBA seasons he maintained.

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Note: I've never said that.

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I asked you directly if Dirk getting 12 All-NBA teams (which he should easily get next year placing top 5 in that category historically) was enough to to get him to the top 50. You said you thought he needed a title and/or a scoring title to be top 50.

quote:

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quote:
Dirk is arguably Top 50 right now, and will definitely be Top 50 if his career winds down on an even pace.
Yeah, "arguably top 50 is a lot different than late 30s. But remember it how you will. Arguably top 50s and late 30s certainly isn't consistent.

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I miscounted. I actually had him in the upper 40s in 2009. I was counting down from a list of 63 players and I thought it was 50 players when I scanned the thread yesterday. But my logic was that he would move up as he got more All-NBA awards. Your logic was that only a title or scoring title would move him up.

This was a big year for Dirk's legacy regardless of how the playoffs shake out because his peers are really starting to slow down while he is playing at his highest level. It's a testament to his conditioning and durability as well as his style of play.

quote:

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Dont sit here and tell me that Chauncey Billips, Latrell Sprewell, Sam Cassell, Stephone Marbury arent some good supporting players.

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[This message has been edited by Simplebay (edited 5/11/2011 10:32a).]

Keep misrepresenting, IF. It's done you well so far.

If the target never stops moving, you can be assured that I will never hit it!

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 5/11/2011 10:43a).]

and If Kevin Garnett is better then Dirk....why has Dirk dominated the head to head matchups with more victories?

More regular seasons wins
More playoff wins
More series victories
Better playoff performances

All in less years then KG

All your justifications there are team-based.

Individual awards:
Both have an MVP
Garnett has a DPOY
Garnett: 11 all-defense selections; 9 first team all defense
Dirk: no all-defense selections
Garnett: 9 All-NBA selections; 4 First team selections
Dirk: 10 All-NBA selections; 4 first team selections
Garnett: 4 straight rebounding titles
Dirk: Never led league in anything

Dirk has a good advantage on team accomplishments - except for the fact that Garnett won a ring. Also, we all know the T-pups were never run as well as the Mavs have been under Cuban. The Wolves lost 4 first round draft picks for trying to get Joe Freakin Smith a max contract under the table.

For individual accomplishments, Garnett kills Dirk.

Except when you look at some of the stats instead of people's votes for awards.

Sure, lets look at stats.

Dirk is the better scorer, but Garnett isn't anemic on the offensive end - scoring over 20ppg for 9 straight seasons.

Dirk 23ppg career, 26.6 high, 11 straight seasons of 21 or higher
Garnett 19.5 career, 24.3 high, 9 straight seasons of 20 or higher

Blocked shots:
Garnett 1.5 career, high of 2.2. 12 straight seasons of 1.4 or higher.
Dirk: 1.0 career, high of 1.5. 6 seasons of 1.0 or higher.

Steals:
Garnett: Career 1.3, high of 1.7 (twice). Never below 1.1. Had 10 seasons matching or higher than Dirks' career high.
Dirk: Career: .9. High of 1.4. five seasons above 1.0.

Rebounds:
Garnett: Career 10.7, high of 13.9. 4 titles. 8 straight seasons of 11.4 or higher.
Dirk: Average 8.4, high of 9.9 (twice).

Assists:
Garnett: Career 4.1, high of 6.0. Six straight seasons above 5.0.
Dirk: career 2.7, high of 3.5.

There are your five major stat categories. Dirk does beat Garnett in 3FG% and FT%, but Garnett is higher in FG%.

Just for IF02:
PER: (Both led the league twice in PER.)
Garnett: 23.4 career, 29.4 high.
Dirk: 23.7 career, 28.1 high.


SO there are your individual stats. Garnett won 4 of 5 major stat categories. If you include the three shooting percentage ones, Garnett wins 5 of 8 categories. And his wins in assists, blocks, steals and rebounds are pretty significant.

i said this earlier soup

You can win a lot of Dirk head to head matchups, but Garnett isn't one to go after. I don't get why you go after a guy that has better career stats in everything but scoring, plus more awards and a ring.

Go after the obscure guys that no one really knows like Dave Bing.

i posted my list. no one answered. i don't see a single person on this list Dirk is better than. FYI, there's 38 people on this list.

quote:

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Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Nate Archibald
Charles Barkley
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Larry Bird
Wilt Chamberlain
Bob Cousy
Clyde Drexler
Julius Erving
Patrick Ewing
Walt Frazier
George Gervin
John Havlicek
Elvin Hayes
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Pete Maravich
George Mikan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Robert Parish
Bob Pettit
Scottie Pippen
Willis Reed
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Bill Russell
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Jerry West
James Worthy
Kobe Bryant
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Lebron James

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I'd take Dirk over Robert Parish without question. I think Dirk and Gervin are about the same level. Same as Dirk and Ewing.

Here is the NBA's 50 at 50 list plus 13 bonus selections I made a few years ago:

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Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Nate Archibald
Paul Arizin
Charles Barkley
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Dave Bing
Larry Bird
Wilt Chamberlain
Bob Cousy
Dave Cowens
Billy Cunningham
Dave DeBusschere
Clyde Drexler
Julius Erving
Patrick Ewing
Walt Frazier
George Gervin
Hal Greer
John Havlicek
Elvin Hayes
Magic Johnson
Sam Jones
Michael Jordan
Jerry Lucas
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Pete Maravich
Kevin McHale
George Mikan
Earl Monroe
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Robert Parish
Bob Pettit
Scottie Pippen
Willis Reed
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Bill Russell
Dolph Schayes
Bill Sharman
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Nate Thurmond
Wes Unseld
Bill Walton
Jerry West
Lenny Wilkens
James Worthy
Dominique Wilkins
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Kobe Bryant
Jason Kidd
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Bob McAdoo
Allen Iverson
Reggie Miller
Gary Payton
Steve Nash

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Let's go ahead and add to those 63:
Dwight Howard
Kevin Durant
Derrick Rose
Chris Paul

Now, Dirk has had a better career than some of those young guys so far. I think Durant is more talented than Dirk. He is a better scorer (two titles in 4 years) and a better defender.

There are definitely guys there that Dirk is better than. But are their 20 guys Dirk is better than or had a better career that (or will have a better career than in the case of those younger players)?

KG doesn't get enough credit for what he did to Boston in 2008. He was by far the biggest catalyst to transforming that team defensively. It wasnt all Thibideau. It wasn't just getting 3 hall of famers together. KG put up the same stats as Al Jefferson, but they ended up as the greatest team of the post Jordan era IMO. If they keep Jefferson or trade for Gasol then that's a slightly better version of Vince Carters Nets in the end. Perkins and Baby don't become defensive stoppers and Rondos ceiling is more of a jameer Nelson level

I begrudgingly agree. KG shaped that team and their attitude. Even Ray Allen almost looked tough!

Dirk still has the top 20 ceiling IMO without a title. This is the year everyone realized that he is still getting better while his peers Kobe Duncan KG Nash Chauncey Pierce are all declining - some worse than others. In 2 years when we realize that he only trails Kareem Shaq Malone and Kobe for all-NBA selections he'll move up some more. Then he'll start to climb the top 10 scoring chart. Then when he's past his prime he could be the Horry type assassin on a title winner. It's all out there as a possibility.

I'm looking at those two lists and I see a bunch of people I'd put Dirk ahead of. But there are so many great players, it really comes down to whoever's subjective analysis you want to go with.

Rings, stats, awards - all that stuff is extremely important to me. Era is important (a modern day center like Howard would absolutely clown on some of those older guys, obviously). To me a great player has to stand out in some way, there needs to be some level of uniqueness. Hakeem's Dream Shake, MJ "his airness", Dr J's baseline, Jerry West "the Logo". There needs to be a contribution to the NBA that transcends statistics. That's why Dirk is an important player to me and at the very least top 50 all time, and that's all Mavs bias aside. His 7'0 move-counter-move series of fades and jumpers is one of a kind.


Obviously you need to find a way to balance all that together. Any one of those things alone doesn't make you one of the greatest players in history. To some degree you need it all.