Really? He better be? Is that some sort of Texags rule?

No, but since you are calling people homers because they want to compare the 2, I would just think that there would be a huge gap in where you rank Dirk and where you rank KG.

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Next time please just ignore rooks with 9 posts who I'm almost sure are socks trying to stir **** up.

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Indeed...I didn't even look at that. Good call sir, and post is disregarded.

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No, but since you are calling people homers because they want to compare the 2, I would just think that there would be a huge gap in where you rank Dirk and where you rank KG.

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Ok, based on that logic I'm dropping Dirk down to around 45-50 and KG should settle in right around 30. Does that fit your sensibility for comparision?

But why would you have to move your rankings? You said dirk was 25-30. I'm just asking where you would rank KG (roughly). Is he top 10 in your mind? Top 20? Top 30?

Prepyag exposed as nothing but a Dallas hater. I'm guessing he has never heard of half the players on simplebays list and sure as hell couldn't rank them.

"no way Dirk is top 10. He's only top 25-30. Oh wait I mean top 50"

The way I see it is that that are a handful of players that are genuinely elite in NBA history. These players have multiple championships, multiple MVPs or finals MVPs, and high on career statistics charts. There aren't many of those.
Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Shaq and Duncan are on that list. Hakeem and Kobe have only one MVP but both won Finals MVPs twice(Hakeem is also the all-time NBA leader in blocked shots). After that I think the lines get more cloudy. You get players that have won MVPs with no championships or championships without really being the team leader. You have players with great stats like Oscar Robertson(1 ring, 1 MVP) Elgin Baylor(no rings or MVPs) Moses Malone had 3 MVPs and one championship and lots of scoring and rebounds. Dr. J pretty much changed the game. From John Havlicek, to Dave Cowens to David Robinson to Dominique they are all great players and there will be tons of debate about where they belong and nobody will ever come to a consensus. This is where Dirk is now and is destined to stay unless something changes drastically in the nest few years. He is a great player among many great NBA players.

That is all!

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Prepyag exposed as nothing but a Dallas hater. I'm guessing he has never heard of half the players on simplebays list and sure as hell couldn't rank them.

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Yeah, because I'm the one touting Dirk as JOrdan and Wilt reincarnated. It's classic that because I'm not ready to change the NBA logo from jerry West to Dirk that I'm a Dallas Hater. I could care less about Dallas good or bad. I enjoy basketball, but if you actually read my posts instead of getting your maverick feelings hurt you'd know that.

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"no way Dirk is top 10. He's only top 25-30. Oh wait I mean top 50"

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But why would you have to move your rankings? You said dirk was 25-30. I'm just asking where you would rank KG (roughly). Is he top 10 in your mind? Top 20? Top 30?

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Wow, both of your sarcasm meters must really be broken. I'll try to lay it on a little thicker just for you next time smart guys



[This message has been edited by prepyag03 (edited 5/12/2011 8:01a).]

For the record, I think KG gets by on a reputation that he has not really earned. I think people forget about how anemic Minnesota was during his 11 years there, and I think they credit him far more than he's due for contributing to the Celtics championship run. I think Paul Pierce had far more to do with Boston's championship, and I think Ray Allen and Perk had as much to do with that team's success as KG did. I think this is evidenced by the fact that they traded away Perk and they now find themselves on the outside watching for the rest of the playoffs.

I think KG is mouthy when he's confronting players that he knows won't fight back, and I think he shrinks against good competition over the history of his career (like against Dirk). I think KG's mouth and demonstrative "tough guy" crap has earned him the title of defensive god, and as a result he gets away with a ton of fouls chalked up to "good hard defense" a la Bruce Bowen that would land a lot of other players on the bench in foul trouble.

I am a Mavericks fan, and you can call it fanboyism is you want, but I would not trade Dirk's five best years for KG's five best years.

KG is a second banana.

MW03...bullsheet. if you wouldn't trade 0 championships for a championship, you're lying or an idiot.

you'd trade dirk averaging 10ppg for his career if the mavs wouldve won in 06.

KG >>>>> dirk

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I think people forget about how anemic Minnesota was during his 11 years there

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Minnesota won 55% of their game from the time Garnett became a full-time starter until he left. Not quite anemic.

And you can't really blame Garnett for how terrible their front office was.

Trying to give Joe Smith a max contract under the table results in four lost first round draft picks.

McHale drafted Ray Allen, and traded him for Stephon Marbury
McHale drafted Brandon Roy, then traded him for Randy Foye.
McHale drafted Corey Brewer over Joakim Noah, Al Thornton, Aaron Brooks and others.
McHale drafted Rashard McCants over Danny Granger.
McHale drafted Nbudi Edi, then the next three drafted were Kendrick Perkins, Leandro Barbosa and Josh Howard.
McHale drafted WallyZ. Next players taken were Rip Hamilton, Andre Miller, Shawn Marion and Jason Terry. Then took William Avery a spot ahead of Ron Artest, then James Posey and Andrei Kirilenko.
Rasho Nesterovic, Paul Grant and Donyell Marshall are all Minn draft products.
Traded Sam Cassell for Marco Jaric.

Yeah, I don't think Garnett can be the one blamed for all that. 1. A free agent isn't going to sign in freaking Minnesota.
2. McHale ran possibly the most inept front office ever in any sport.
Garnett still managed to lead them to a winning record.

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I think Paul Pierce had far more to do with Boston's championship

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Then why was Pierce completely unable to win 50 games in even one season before KG came along? Boston won at a 43% rate from Pierce's rookie year until before KG showed up.

Prepy, can you take some time off from calling out overzealous Mavs fans to honestly and without sarcasm tell us where you rank Dirk and KG all-time, and how that plays into it being "laughable" to compare the two?

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MW03...bullsheet. if you wouldn't trade 0 championships for a championship, you're lying or an idiot.

you'd trade dirk averaging 10ppg for his career if the mavs wouldve won in 06.

KG >>>>> dirk

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Not exactly what I said. I'd happily trade the mavericks' 5 best seasons for boston's championship season.

But if you are claiming that Dallas wins the championship if you replace 2006 MVP Dirk with 2008 (or 2004 MVP) KG, then I think you are wrong again. Putting KG on the mavericks doesn't give the Mavs Perkins, Pierce, and Allen as well. KG would have to deal with Josh Howard and Erik Dampier just like Dirk did.

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But if you are claiming that Dallas wins the championship if you replace 2006 MVP Dirk with 2008 (or 2004 MVP) KG, then I think you are wrong again. Putting KG on the mavericks doesn't give the Mavs Perkins, Pierce, and Allen as well. KG would have to deal with Josh Howard and Erik Dampier just like Dirk did.

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That's just dumb.

And if you trade Garnett for Dirk, the 2008 Celtics don't win the title. It works both ways.

Those two players have different roles and are not inter-changeable.

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Then why was Pierce completely unable to win 50 games in even one season before KG came along? Boston won at a 43% rate from Pierce's rookie year until before KG showed up.

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Here's a fact for you. It took KG 10 years to get out of the first round of the playoffs. 10 years. The year he won MVP, he got bounced in the WCF by the Lakers. It wasn't until he got paired up with some actual talent vis a vis Paul Pierce and Ray Allen that he won a ring. But suddenly, now that KG got a ring alongside Paul Pierce, who is a top 25 in all-time points in the HISTORY OF THE LEAGUE and Ray Allen, who is undeniably the best shooter of all time, we're supposed to believe that KG is some kind of unstoppable god.

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That's just dumb.

And if you trade Garnett for Dirk, the 2008 Celtics don't win the title. It works both ways.

Those two players have different roles and are not inter-changeable.

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Of course it's dumb. Simplebay was claiming that by my saying I wouldn't trade Dirk for KG, I was claiming that I wouldn't trade anything for the Celtics' ring. I was pointing out exactly your point... that KG =/= NBA championship.

i don't think mavs fans get it. you need to stick to individual stats and awards to try have a chance on proving dirk is better than KG. and we've shown they're pretty evenly split.

the team-based achievements clearly go to KG since he holds the championship trump card and more finals appearances.

[This message has been edited by Simplebay (edited 5/12/2011 1:56p).]

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It wasn't until he got paired up with some actual talent

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Exactly. It wasn't until he played with other good players that he could win. But he still was winning 50+ games in the stacked western conference while Pierce couldn't crack 50 wins in a ****ty Eastern conference.

No one can win a title alone. And Garnett was going up against Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton with himself/Latrell Sprewell at 34 and Sam Cassell at 34. And you want to blame Garnett?

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we're supposed to believe that KG is some kind of unstoppable god.

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KG made that team into one of the best defensive teams of all time. He deserves credit. He didn't have the offense to do everything, but he anchored the defense on a great defense and instilled that defensive mind into young, talented players.

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Paul Pierce, who is a top 25 in all-time points in the HISTORY OF THE LEAGUE

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Pierce is 35th in basketball history if you count NBA and ABA and 30th if you only count NBA. Garnett is 25th and 20th. Pierce is meh. Scored a lot of points as the only option on a lot of bad teams.



I hate KG, but his contributions to that 08 Celtics team is undeniable. He has had a great career, despite having to deal with possibly the WORST run franchise in the league.

Meanwhile, Dirk has been on a franchise that has an owner that probably cares more than any other owner in the league. An owner that has spared no expense and has taken on losses that some estimate in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

KG has had a better career and unless something drastic happens, will be considered a greater player when all is said and done.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 5/12/2011 2:05p).]

See, this is where the fun begins.

KG couldn't get his team to a championship (or even into the NBA championship) while in Minnesota. KG gets traded to a team with far superior talent. KG wins a ring. Now KG is a dominant force and one of history's all time greats.

See, we can't blame KG for not playing with talent in Minnesota. He couldn't be expected to put the whole team on his shoulders and win in the playoffs. We were being unfair to KG. His superstar was being snuffed out in Minnesota.

On the other hand Dirk Nowitzki can't lead his team to a championship. It doesn't matter that Dirk has been depending on the likes of Raef LaFrentz and Erik Dampier for help in the front court. Great players put their team on their shoulders and win games.

So I guess Dirk needs to get traded to a team where he's not the only superstar, and where the whole team doesn't depend on him for the league to really recognize what a talent he is.

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Great players put their team on their shoulders and win games.

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So I guess we can all agree that Dirk is not a great player.

That put an easy end to this thread.

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Exactly. It wasn't until he played with other good players that he could win. But he still was winning 50+ games in the stacked western conference while Pierce couldn't crack 50 wins in a ****ty Eastern conference.

No one can win a title alone. And Garnett was going up against Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton with himself/Latrell Sprewell at 34 and Sam Cassell at 34. And you want to blame Garnett?

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No, I don't want you to blame Garnett. I just want you to remember everything you typed here when you (maybe not you, but Nowtizki-haters everywhere) call out Dirk for not winning a championship when he hasn't played with the caliber of talent it took for KG to win one, and when he's been playing against the exact same western conference powers.

Here's an interesting tidbit. This is the first finals since 1998 that won't feature Shaq, Kobe, or Tim Duncan.

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So I guess we can all agree that Dirk is not a great player.

That put an easy end to this thread.

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I think your sarcasm meter is broken if you didn't pick on the fact that I was making fun of the duplicitous arguments people make about winning championships while forgiving Garnett for floundering in Minnesota.

By saying "foreign" player I am talking about someone who didnt go to college in the states and didnt play for team USA in the olympics. Would you call Patrick Ewing a foreign player? I mean he did play at Georgetown but he was born in Jamaica. I probably should have specified what I meant by "foreign" player.

Hakeem didn't become a citizen until 1993.
Ewing moved to Cambridge, Mass when he was 11.

Kinda different stories. Hakeem was recruited to play at UH by Guy Lewis.

He played for Team USA... if he was a foreign player he would have played for Nigeria

He was a citizen of Nigeria until the 90s. He became an immigrant. Not sure Nigeria even has a basketball team. He still only spends about half his time in America.

You guys are just reaching now to find categories in which they can claim Dirk was the best of/at. Hakeem Olajuwon is no longer considered a foreign player now? SMH.

Same old, same old.

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how can you put him there with zero championships?

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if you wouldn't trade 0 championships for a championship, you're lying or an idiot.

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the team-based achievements clearly go to KG since he holds the championship trump card and more finals appearances.

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If there is one thing I learned from this thread it's that if I go into sports bar in Houston and start talking about the greatest players and teams ever, I should get no arguments when I state that:

• George Mikan and Tim Duncan were definitively better than Hakeem
• The Cowboys are better than the Oilers and Texans combined
• Robbie Alomar is definitively better than Craig Biggio
  
• Trent Dilfer and Eli Manning are better quarterbacks than Warren Moon
• Rice and Fresno State have better baseball programs than A&M

Anyone who disagrees is either a liar or an idiot.




And crap, I just realized that Minnesota and Army have greater football programs than A&M.

[This message has been edited by Mutual_Friend (edited 5/12/2011 3:20p).]

[This message has been edited by Mutual_Friend (edited 5/12/2011 3:31p).]

I think I'll go off of coaches, players and former members of both of those categories that constantly say Dirk is one of the best players they've ever seen.

I think they know more about it than all of us.

Well, since Dirk's coach said he is top 10 all-time, he must be.

Yup, that's what I said.

Same old, same old.

My only issue with Dirk is that he doesn't play big on defense. Certainly not like a seven footer. He's a shoe in HOF and rightly so. He's never been flanked by another truly great player (yes I remember Nash) but still leads his team to 50 wins per year in the brutal West. He's had a great career but needs a ring for true greatness.

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My only issue with Dirk is that he doesn't play big on defense.

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This is a very legitimate complaint about Dirk. I think a lot of his problems came from trying to play on the wings early in his career against smaller, faster SFs. He always played flat footed, and he was never quick to step over. He probably couldn't have done it physically, either.

The problem was compounded by the fact that when he was in the block on a PF on rare occasions (i'm talking pre 2005, here), he was so out of his element playing defense on back to the basket guys that he was abused regularly, and again, he played flat footed with a lot of arm waiving BS.

Frankly, I put a lot of that blame on the Run TMC offense Nelly pushed through here with Dirk, Nash, and Finley.

Under Avery, they forced a defensive mindset, and you started seeing Dirk in a more natural defensive position for a 7 footer. Of course at this point, he was 5+ years behind the game. He has really evolved as a defender under Carlisle's study.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he's a great defender, or that he's even in the top half of the league as a defensive PF. What I am saying is that he is much better on defense now than he was 5 years ago, and I think that says quite a lot about his talent. Not many players get better after they turn 30, and Dirk is playing the best basketball of his career right now in these playoffs at 33.

5 pages on a question that the obviously easy answer to is "no"

5 page and the answer was obviously "yes"

See how this works?