You can pick out any 5 year window and say he's just another top 10 player of that era but if you have 15+ years of that consistency you can't ignore it. It's unprecedented

He's a top 10 player of the Shaq era, the Kobe era and probably will be for the Lebron/Durant era. Amazing

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This is the year everyone realized that he is still getting better while his peers Kobe Duncan KG Nash Chauncey Pierce are all declining - some worse than others.

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Dirk is 32 - almost 33. He has played 1106 games.

Kobe is 32 - almost 33. Kobe has already played 1300 games.

Garnett turns 35 in a couple days. Tonight will be his 1300th game.

Duncan just turned 35. He has played over 1200 games.

Chauncey was never a superstar like the others, and he turns 35 before next season starts. He has played 1122 games.

Pierce turns 34 before next season. He has played almost 1100 games. I never really bought into Pierce as a superstar. He never won 50 games in the Leastern conference before KG showed up.

Dirk is younger than most of those guys (or hasn't had the brutal schedule Kobe did.) Duncan regressed more this year than I think most of us expected. I think Kobe has been good at developing post moves to extend his career, but he has certainly lost a step. I think Dirk's shooting ability (certainly several times better than anyone else listed here) is going to prolong his career some. He can always be a Dale Ellis and sit behind the line and wait for Jason Kidd in an electric wheelchair to kick him out the ball.

In my opinion, Dirk is definitely Top 50, likely Top 40 after this season.

Additions to the Top 50 list from 1997:

Dominique Wilkins
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
Kevin Garnett
Dirk Nowitzki
Allen Iverson
Steve Nash

Knocking on the door:

LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Ray Allen
Paul Pierce

Out:

Robert Parish
James Worthy
Sam Jones
Billy Cunningham
Dave Cowens
Kevin McHale

Is there anyone that entered the league before 2004 season that is still in their prime? And don't leave out Dirk carrying Team Germany on his back all those years. His work ethic has enabled him to withstand the mileage. Kobe is the only peer who works as hard but his style of play is a bigger problem

When it comes to eras, I think an argument can be made for Top 5 Player Status for the following players (I'm sure I'm missing a couple here and there). Dirk has only spanned two, maybe two and half eras. I use this argument all the time for Kobe because he really has been in the discussion for best player in the league over multiple eras.

Top 5 Late 90's:

Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Kobe Bryant
Allen Iverson
Jason Kidd
Chris Webber


Early 2000's:

Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Allen Iverson
Jason Kidd
Vince Carter
Tracy McGrady
Dirk Nowitzki


Mid-2000's

Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Tracy McGrady
LeBron James
Dirk Nowitzki
Steve Nash
Kevin Garnett
Vince Carter


Late-2000's

Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Dirk Nowitzki
Steve Nash
Dwyane Wade
Carmelo Anthony
Kevin Durant
Dwight Howard
Chris Paul
Deron Williams


I'm also of the school of thought that says if you've won an MVP award in the NBA, you're automatically one of the 50 best players ever (with the exception of Derrick Rose for now).

Amare and Pau Gasol only stars I can think of from pre 2004 still in their prime

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but if you have 15+ years of that consistency you can't ignore it. It's unprecedented

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Unprecedented?

First of all, Dirk's been on this level since 2001. That's 11 seasons. Do you really think he is going to be getting 20 anad 7 in 4 years? That's another 300+ games.

Kareem
Karl
Parish (not as good as Dirk, but still pretty consistent for about 15 years.)
John Stockton
Moses Malone had 19/10 for 13 straight seasons.
Artis Gilmore?
Elvin Hayes?
Kidd's been pretty consistently good for a long time. He isn't who he was in NJ, but he put in about 12 great seasons and is still pretty damn good. .
Kobe with 12 or 13 straight great seasons
Hakeem had 13 great seasons.
Shaq had 15 great seasons
Duncan had about 12 great seasons

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His work ethic has enabled him to withstand the mileage.

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His playing style helps a lot, too. He doesn't spend time banging down low and he doesn't relying on having to take guys off the dribble. We see Kobe not being able to take guys as much and we see Duncan not being able to bang down low as much. But the fadeaway stays with you.

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But there are so many great players, it really comes down to whoever's subjective analysis you want to go with.

Rings, stats, awards - all that stuff is extremely important to me. Era is important (a modern day center like Howard would absolutely clown on some of those older guys, obviously). To me a great player has to stand out in some way, there needs to be some level of uniqueness. Hakeem's Dream Shake, MJ "his airness", Dr J's baseline, Jerry West "the Logo". There needs to be a contribution to the NBA that transcends statistics. That's why Dirk is an important player to me and at the very least top 50 all time, and that's all Mavs bias aside. His 7'0 move-counter-move series of fades and jumpers is one of a kind.


Obviously you need to find a way to balance all that together. Any one of those things alone doesn't make you one of the greatest players in history. To some degree you need it all.

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So kinda what I said earlier. Only when I said it, I was apparently "deflecting" and not showing consistency.
[I realize, not by you]

Maybe Joe Johnson. Carlos Boozer is still only 29.

Kobe is decelerating slightly but it's hard to say a guy still tossing up his career average isn't in his prime any more. His numbers this year were just as good as 99/00, 01/02, and 03/04.

Kobe's one fo the really great players who changes his game as he gets older. He is taking more and more jump shots instead of layups and dunks now. If I heard right, he had 0 dunks in the Mavs series. That seems crazy for a guy like Kobe.

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Is there anyone that entered the league before 2004 season that is still in their prime?

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I think there was a pretty big draft drought for a while there.

The Duncan draft (97) had Timmy and pretty much no one else worthy of consideration of all-time talk. (McGrady and Billups were the next two best players. Duncan is the only superstar there.

98:
top three: Olowkandi, Bibby, LaFrenz.
But it did have Dirk, Pierce and Vince Carter. I think Dirk is the only Super Star in that draft.

99:
A bunch of good role players and lower level all-stars (Artest, Marion, Brand, Rip, Francis) but no super stars. Baron Davis could have been if he smoked less pot.

00:
The Lottery to end all Lotteries:
Kenyon Martin
Stromile Swift
Darius Miles
Marcus Fizer
Mike Miller
DeMarr Johnson
Chris Mihm
Jamal Crawford
Joel Pryzyzizizbilla
Kenyon Dooling
Jerome Moiso
Etan Thomas
Courtney Alexander

01:
Kwame Brown, Pau Gasol, Tyson Chandler, Joe Johnson, ZBo, Tony Parker. Or, if you were a Rockets fan, Eddie Griffin.

02:
Yao and Amare

03
The new generation.

So basically, between the Kobe/Duncan/Dirk generation there is not a single superstar drafted until LeBron. Then we get Bron, Wade, Melo in one draft, get Dwight Howard in the next draft, Chris Paul after that and Durant, Westbrook and Rose a couple years later.

Question:

If we were talking offense only, is Dirk a top 20 player all time?

whoa whoa whoa HNIC......big game james is not out of the top 50. you've gotta be ****ting me.

Dirk is the greatest foreign player of all time and one of the greatest scoring big men of all time, definitely a top 10 type player by the time his career is over

James Worthy was probably the worst admission to that list in 1997. I would kick him out of the list before I would Shaquille O'Neal. No way was Worthy a better player than Dominique Wilkins.

Good question, MW.

Lets go process of elimination.

Can we all agree that Jordan, Kareem and Wilt are the top three scorers ever?

Kareem: 2 scoring titles, most points ever, 24.6 lifetime ppg, 34.8 high.
Jordan: Won ten straight scoring titles (if you don't include the two baseball seasons. Lifetime 30.1.
Wilt: Won 7 straight scoring titles. Lifetime 30.1 average. 50ppg high. 100 point game. Scored like 20,000 times in 10 years.

Others:

Karl Malone: Lifetime 25ppg, second all-time. Never won a scoring title but had a 31ppg season and three straight over 29.

Kevin Durant: Two scoring titles. 26ppg career, high of 30.1

Shaq: Lifetime 23.7. Two scoring titles. Five seasons with 28ppg or higher.

Allen Iverson: 4 scoring titles. Lifetime 26.7. High of 33ppg. Over 30 4 times.

Kobe Bryant: 2 scoring titles, lifetime 25.3. High of 35. Four seasons over 28.

LeBron: Lifetime 27.7. One scoring title. Four seasons over 28ppg.

DWade: Lifetime 25.4. One scoring title. HIgh of 30.

Dominique: Lifetime 24.8. Ten straight seasons of 26ppg.

George Gervin: Lifetime (ABA and NBA) 25.1. High of 33.1. Scored 33 points in one quarter. Four scoring titles.

Pistol Pete: Lifetime 24.2. High of 31. High of 31. One Scoring title

Oscar Robertson: Lifetime 25.7. One scoring title. 8 straight seasons over 28, 5 seasons over 30.

Bob Pettit: 2 scoring titles, lifetime 26.4, high of 31.

Bob McAdoo: 3 scoring titles. 34.5 high, 22.1 total. Three straight 30 point seasons.

Dr.J: Three ABA titles. 24.2 lifetime. 32 high.

ALex English: one title, 8 straight seasons over 25. 21.5 lifetime.

Do you include other stats in "great scorers" or just points?

For instance, the amount of shots it takes to get their points:

Lebron - 20.6
Wade - 18.4
Dirk - 16.8

Those are regular season averages fyi.

[This message has been edited by keithd03 (edited 5/11/2011 3:14p).]

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Dirk is the greatest foreign player of all time

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That's highly debatable!

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Dirk is the greatest foreign player of all time

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I LOLed.

THANK YOU SOUP!

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ames Worthy was probably the worst admission to that list in 1997. I would kick him out of the list before I would Shaquille O'Neal. No way was Worthy a better player than Dominique Wilkins.

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3× NBA Champion (1985, 1987–1988)
NBA Finals MVP (1988)
7× NBA All-Star (1986–1992)
Top 25 All Time Playoff Scoring and Steals

Career: 18ppg, 5rpg, 1spg


Nique:
NBA scoring champion (1986)
All-NBA First Team (1986)

Career: 25ppg, 7rpg

you can tell who the Maverick fans are just by their responses.

IF you'r esimply talking scoring than Dirk is in the conversation for top 15-20 arguably...if you're talking overall player, he's 25-30.

To say Dirk is better than Moses Malone, or Kevin Garnett, or to be honest even Lebron James is laughable. Don't let your maverick love prevent the brain God gave ya'll from functioning.

I"m just waiting to hear Dirk is better than Jordan and Wilt from some of ya'll. That train is on it's way based on some of the responses I've seen on this thread.

I don't think it is that far fetched to make a case that he is better than KG.

I love Worthy (wouldn't have won the 1988 title without him) but Dominique was clearly a top 10 player in the mid to late 80's. James was not.

Agreed on Olajuwon over Dirk too. For now at least.

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Agreed on Olajuwon over Dirk too. For now at least.

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Forever. You meant to type forever.

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I"m just waiting to hear Dirk is better than Jordan and Wilt from some of ya'll. That train is on it's way based on some of the responses I've seen on this thread.

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You might want to consider rereading the thread then. Everyone conceded that Dirk was not a top 10 all time player and that Carlise was just giving his guy some love. The thread then turned to where does Dirk rank? Top 20? Top 50? A legitimate debate. The fanboy, emotional arguments have come from Rockets fans who suggest that guys like Worthy, Parish and Cousy are better than Dirk.





And just an observation, the word is "y'all"- a contraction of you all- not "ya'll".

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/yall.html

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I don't think it is that far fetched to make a case that he is better than KG.

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And that would be your opinion and you're entitled to it. Just for the record sir, how long has you been a Mavericks fan?

Since I was old enough to follow basketball.

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You might want to consider rereading the thread then. Everyone conceded that Dirk was not a top 10 all time player and that Carlise was just giving his guy some love. The thread then turned to where does Dirk rank? Top 20? Top 50? A legitimate debate. The fanboy, emotional arguments have come from Rockets fans who suggest that guys like Worthy, Parish and Cousy are better than Dirk.

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Right...so there hasn't been any fanboy, emotional arguments from you maverick fans either. Come on man, give it a rest.

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And just an observation, the word is "y'all"- a contraction of you all- not "ya'll".

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Awe, the proverbial grammer nazi...typical response when one has nothing to contribute to a thread. Noted and thanks.

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Since I was old enough to follow basketball.

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Yeah, that's what I figured.


[This message has been edited by prepyag03 (edited 5/11/2011 3:53p).]

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you can tell who the Maverick fans are just by their responses.

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You can also tell who the Maverick haters are, just by their responses.

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IF you'r esimply talking scoring than Dirk is in the conversation for top 15-20 arguably...if you're talking overall player, he's 25-30.

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So then you agree with about 90% of the Dallas fans on here. And are a little bit more bullish than me on his overall ranking (I have him mid-30's all time).

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I"m just waiting to hear Dirk is better than Jordan and Wilt from some of ya'll. That train is on it's way based on some of the responses I've seen on this thread.

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If you read this entire thread and came to that conclusion, it might be time to enroll in some remedial reading courses, no offense. I'd say most of the Mav regulars that post here are pretty grounded.

[This message has been edited by Judge (edited 5/11/2011 4:04p).]

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Awe, the proverbial grammer nazi...typical response when one has nothing to contribute to a thread. Noted and thanks.

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Actaully attributing an argument to your opponent that your opponent never made or otherwise misrepresetning your opponent's argument (e.g.- "Mavs fans are going to say that Dirk is better than MJ or Wilt, therefore their opinions aren't valid" ) is the type of response typical of someone who has nothing to add to a debate.

The first part of my post pointed out your false argument regarding the position taken by Mavs fans. It was a valid response to your "argument". The second part was simply an attempt to prevent you from looking like an ill-educated hick in the future. You're welcome.


[This message has been edited by Mutual_Friend (edited 5/11/2011 4:04p).]

Prep,

So you yourself say Dirk is 25-30. Where would you rank KG? He better be really high on your list to call out people for even suggesting that you can compare the 2.

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You can also tell who the Maverick haters are, just by their responses.

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I agree 100%, which I'm neither. I enjoy good basketball, to which the mavs have provided thus far in this playoffs.

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So then you agree with about 90% of the Dallas fans on here. And are a little bit more bullish than me on his overall ranking (I have him mid-30's all time).

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Indeed I do, to the extent that he's a top 30 player, but nothing more.

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If you read this entire thread and came to that conclusion, it might be time to enroll in some remedial reading courses, no offense

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I have read this entire thread, and saw things like he's the best European player ever making him a top 10 NBA player, and that he's better than Moses Malone and Kevin Garrnett, and that he single-handedly has won 50 games for 10 plus years for Dallas, etc, etc...so forgive me if I feel alittle insanity w/ some of the overzealous mavs fans on this thread.

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So you yourself say Dirk is 25-30. Where would you rank KG? He better be really high on your list to call out people for even suggesting that you can compare the 2.

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Really? He better be? Is that some sort of Texags rule?

[This message has been edited by prepyag03 (edited 5/11/2011 4:07p).]

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I have read this entire thread, and saw things like he's the best European player ever making him a top 10 NBA player

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Next time please just ignore rooks with 9 posts who I'm almost sure are socks trying to stir **** up.