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and Mutual_Friend's post is idiotic. dirk is better than all of them? holy hell.

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Oh no, I'm trapped in your box of naked assertion and name calling.

friendy....this topic is asking is dirk is a top 10 player. congrats on "proving" he's a top 25 player.

what's meth like?

Okay, show me one person other than Carlise who said that Dirk is top 10. Congrats on disproving a point no one was arguing.

It's quite an accomplishemnt to "win" an argument when no one was taking the other side.

[insert hackneyed insult of your choice]

Guitarsoup thinks Dirk isn't a Top 50 player. Why don't you back up what you wrote in 2009? I mean Dirk hasn't won any titles in 2 years and his stats are falling?

http://texags.com/main/forum.reply.asp?topic_id=1445209&page=1&forum_id=52

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Guitarsoup
posted 10:46a, 07/15/09

Dirk is a below average defender and choked big time against Miami and in the worst round 1 series loss ever. Stealing an MVP from Kobe doesn't make him top 50.

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there are people offering counterpoints to the people overtly stating he's not top 10. it could be implied that they think he's top 10, without explicitly saying it.

Question, are all these people better than Dirk...

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Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Nate Archibald
Charles Barkley
Rick Barry
Elgin Baylor
Larry Bird
Wilt Chamberlain
Bob Cousy
Clyde Drexler
Julius Erving
Patrick Ewing
Walt Frazier
George Gervin
John Havlicek
Elvin Hayes
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Pete Maravich
George Mikan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Robert Parish
Bob Pettit
Scottie Pippen
Willis Reed
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Bill Russell
John Stockton
Isiah Thomas
Jerry West
James Worthy
Kobe Bryant
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Lebron James

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There's an argument for Dirk not being in the top 25 all time.

Kevin Garnett?

LeBron James?



[This message has been edited by rasher (edited 5/10/2011 11:13a).]

you think dirk's better than KG or Lebron?

Kevin Garnett: MVP, DPOY, NBA Champion, 14x All-Star, 4x 1st Team NBA, 3x 2nd Team NBA, 2x 3rd Team NBA, 9x 1st Team Defense

Regular Season: 19.5, 10.7, 4.1
Playoffs: 20.0, 11.2, 4.0
Best: 24.2, 13.9, 5.0 (2003-04/MVP)


Dirk Nowitzki: MVP, 10x All-Star 4x 1st Team NBA, 4x 2nd Team NBA, 2x 3rd Team NBA

Regular Season: 23.0, 8.4, 2.7
Playoffs: 25.6, 10.9, 2.6
Best: 26.6, 9.0, 2.8 (2005-06, even though he won the MVP the year after)


I'm going to go ahead and say that Kevin Garnett is the better player at this point in time.

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There's an argument for Dirk not being in the top 25 all time.

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There's also an argument that O.J. didn't kill Nicole. There's also an argument that the moon landing was fake. Just because paid advocates or crazy people can come with an argument doesn't mean the argument is valid.

I don't think you are getting paid to post, so I can only assume you are a crazy person.

I thought your big point was that we were talking All-Time? LeBron has a wayyyyy to go, not to mention he's been swept in his only Finals appearance.

KG needed Paul Pierce and Ray Allen to win his only title. Both of those players are better than any secondary player Dirk has ever had.

Mutual....judging from the people you bolded that Dirk was better than, i think it's safe to say i'm not the one who's crazy.

And Michael needed Scottie, Shaq needed Kobe/Wade, blah, blah, blah.

How many of you guys comparing these all time greats to current players have actually studied the games of these great players? I can sit here and tell you that Elgin Baylor was one of the all time greats, but that's only because I've heard people say that. In other words, I am just regurgitating what other people have said. The truth of the matter is that Baylor played his last game 10 years before I was born, and I'm not going to sit here and act like I'm watching old Lakers games from the 60s on youtube.

I can compare Dirk to players that I have watched (read: since about 1987), and I don't think he's a top 10 player. I do think he's a top 10 scorer, though. And in terms of his abilities, I think he's probably got the most unique game since Magic Johnson was running the point at 6'9.

Anyway, Carlisle was clearly pumping up his player. Nothing more.

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I see Dirk having a Dominique Wilkins-esque legacy. Obviously, their skill sets are different. But they are both once-in-a-generation scorers who play limited defense and have never won the big one (Dirk TBD). A little overrated during their careers and inevitably underrated after they retire.

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I think this is pretty fair from HNIC.

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KG needed Paul Pierce and Ray Allen to win his only title. Both of those players are better than any secondary player Dirk has ever had.

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But KG/Pierce/Allen also played a much better team than the 2006 Heat.

When all the current players retire, an argument could be made by someone outside of Texas that Dirk isn't top 10 of his contemporaries [I'm excluding Jordan because the Washington years never happened]. Dirk is almost 33, so he has a couple more seasons where he can be expected to keep playing at this high level. It is feasible that he adds a ring to his resume. Current resumes (obviously, a guy like Chris Paul or Durant has a lot less time to acquire awards so far):

Dirk: 1 MVP, 4x All-NBA First Teams

Kobe: 5 rings, 1 MVP, 2 Finals MVPs, 8 All-NBA FIrst Teams, 9 All-Defense First Teams, led league in scoring twice

Shaq: 4 rings, 1 MVP, 3 Finals MVPs, 8 All-NBA First Teams, 3 All-Defense Second Teams, ROY, led league in scoring twice and FG% 10 times.

Garnett: 1 Title, 1 MVP, 1 DPOY, 4x All-NBA First Team, 9x All-Defense First Team, Led league in rpg 4 times,

Duncan: 4 Rings, 2 MVPs, 3 Finals MVPs, ROY, 9 All-NBA First Teams, 8 All-Defense First teams, Led League in rebounds

Robinson: 2 Rings, 1 MVP, DPOY, ROY, Led league in rebounds, blocks and points, 4x All-NBA First Team, 4x All-Defense First Team

LeBron James: 2x MVP, ROY, 4x All-NBA First Team, 3x All-Defense First Teams, Led league in scoring

Steve Nash: 2x MVP, 3x All-NBA First Team, Led league in assists five times and FT% twice.

Dwyane Wade: 1 Ring, 1 Finals MVP, 1x Scoring Title, 2x All-NBA First Team, 3x All-Defense second team

Kevin Durant: 2x Scoring Titles, ROY, 1x All-NBA First Team

Dwight Howard: 3x DPOY, 3x All-NBA First Team, 3x All-Defense First Team, 3x Rebounding titles, 2x Blocks titles, 1x led league in FG%

Allan Iverson: 1 MVP, 4x Scoring titles, 3x led league in steals, 3x All-NBA First Team

Chris Paul: 1x All-NBA First team, 2x All-Defense First Team, 2 assists titles, 3 steals titles.

Karl Malone; Led the league in turnovers and **** Karl Malone.

I'm not saying that all these players are definitely better than Dirk. But all may be included in the conversation someday when people are looking back as the best players of the era.

Now, I don't think that Nash or Iverson are better than Dirk. But their resumes look better. And who knows what will become of guys like Durant, Howard, Westbrook, LeBron, etc. We have a lot of talent in the league right now.

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I see Dirk having a Dominique Wilkins-esque legacy. Obviously, their skill sets are different. But they are both once-in-a-generation scorers who play limited defense and have never won the big one (Dirk TBD). A little overrated during their careers and inevitably underrated after they retire.

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I will agree with this. Unless Dirk leads the Mavs to a title this year (which would be an epic run - through Odom's *****, Kobe, Durant or out of his mind ZBo and the Heatles or Bulls) I think Dirk, Gervin and Wilkins are all classified as one of the great offensive players or all time. Guys that played the game their own way - did it in a way that no one else was doing it. They all carried their franchise to be great teams for a decade. But that's it.

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Nowitzki remains one of four players in NBA history to average 25 points and 10 rebounds in his career playoff (Hakeem Olajuwon, Elgin Baylor and Bob Pettit are the other three).

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This to me says that Dirk raises his level in the playoffs whereas a lot of other great players mentioned in the list above have not. The question is why - and I think it speaks to the kind of talent Dirk has had around him over the years. He has been a beast this postseason and if he can win a title along with keeping his numbers somewhat close the next 3 years, I think he would easily crack the top 25 list. Top 10 ? Not unless he wins a couple rings.

I do not think Dirk is currently one of the top-10 of all time, but he is still at the apex of his career. I'll reserve judgement until the end. He's got a good shot at passing some of those guys on the list.

Love Dirk. He's a definite top 50 guy, debatable top 20, definitely not a top 10.


Not really a knock on him as much as there are some awesome dudes at the top.

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This to me says that Dirk raises his level in the playoffs whereas a lot of other great players mentioned in the list above have not. The question is why - and I think it speaks to the kind of talent Dirk has had around him over the years. He has been a beast this postseason and if he can win a title along with keeping his numbers somewhat close the next 3 years, I think he would easily crack the top 25 list. Top 10 ? Not unless he wins a couple rings.

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Yep. Especially when you consider (1) the number of shots he takes to get his points and (2) the number of times he's facing double teams in a possession.

Someone earlier said that he's been a little overrated during his career, and that he'll be underrated in history. I actually think he's been criminally underrated in the league, and I think he'll be underrated in history.

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I actually think he's been criminally underrated in the league, and I think he'll be underrated in history.

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Most big fans of any given player/team think this.

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I actually think he's been criminally underrated in the league, and I think he'll be underrated in history.

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+1

The fact that some people actually think Kevin Garnett is a better player is all you need to know.

Dirk is better then Kevin Garnett in almost every way possible.

If Dirk was black, ghetto and talked a whole lot of ***** people's opinion of him would be way higher.

Doug Gottlieb is talking about this and said dirk is not a top 50 all time player

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Dirk is better then Kevin Garnett in almost every way possible.

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except for:
defense
rebounding
passing
shooting (FG%)
blocked shots
getting his team further in the postseason

oh and and winning championships.

When you start quoting Doug Gottlieb, you know that you've lost the argument.

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The fact that some people actually think Kevin Garnett is a better player is all you need to know.

Dirk is better then Kevin Garnett in almost every way possible.

If Dirk was black, ghetto and talked a whole lot of ***** people's opinion of him would be way higher.

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Troll acknowledged.

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Most big fans of any given player/team think this.

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touche

Doug Gottlieb is a ****ing quack. If you've been listening to him on the radio the past two days, he's either mentally retarded or a bigger Mavs hater than GS and Simple combined.

Just yesterday he was talking about how Bynum's assassination attempt on Barea was no big deal and he didn't have a problem with it, just that he took off his shirt and acted stupid afterwards.

If you think Dirk isn't even top 50 all time, you have a mental disorder.

If you're cry laughing about Dirk being top 10 all time and then matter-of-factly posting that some idiot says he's not top 50, you've just exposed yourself as an irrational hater.

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oh and and winning championships.

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KG is a great player, and I think right now he's ranked ahead of Dirk all time, but let's not be delusional. KG led his team about as far as Dirk did until he joined up with the best 3 point shooter in history and another perennial all-star.

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getting his team further in the postseason

oh and and winning championships.

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Yeah, KG was just tearing it up in the playoffs when he was on the Timberwolves. Not until he got put with Allen and Pierce (a tandem that Dirk has never come close to playing with) did he "win a championship."

Do people forget dirk played with a guy who has won more mvps than kobe?

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If you're cry laughing about Dirk being top 10 all time and then matter-of-factly posting that some idiot says he's not top 50, you've just exposed yourself as an irrational hater.

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Says the guy who follows me around looking for ways to attack.

I don't hate the Mavs. Clearly not as much as you hate me. Like I said before the playoffs, I was cheering for the Mavs to make it to the WCF, and they have.

I wasn't saying I like Gottlieb or that I regularly listen to him. He was on the radio because I listen to M&M on the way to work most days. I have no clue what he says on a normal basis. Sounds like you guys listen to him a lot more than I do.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 5/10/2011 7:23p).]

I think there are 2 top 10 players currently playing today. Duncan and Shaq. I'll hear an argument for Kobe, maybe.

That's it.

I think Dirk can arguably be in the top 10 offensive players of all time. He will never be top 10 due to his defensive deficiencies, even though he has improved in this department.

HNIC and GS work tirelessly to discuss why Dirk isn't as great as he actually is.

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Anyway, Carlisle was clearly pumping up his player. Nothing more.

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MW03 FTW

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Says the guy who follows me around looking for ways to attack.

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You know what, nevermind. I'll just re-read your PM from the last time and spare everyone.

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I wasn't saying I like Gottlieb or that I regularly listen to him. He was on the radio because I listen to M&M on the way to work most days. I have no clue what he says on a normal basis. Sounds like you guys listen to him a lot more than I do.

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Okay. So what was the purpose of posting Gottlieb's musings on Dirk?

[This message has been edited by Judge (edited 5/10/2011 9:03p).]