shack009 said:

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zgolfz85 said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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shack009 said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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But for it to really make sense long term, Luka needs to drink himself into Embiid-type of missed games. Embiid's contract is catastrophically the worst in the NBA by a long shot and no one else is even close. Making that bet that Luka turns into is wild from the outside looking in and without the insider knowledge that Kidd, etc would have.

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Yep, this is the only thing that will give Mavs fans peace, long term. Have to be able to look back and say "Nico was right about Luka's lifestyle and commitment to basketball." We won't have the answer for another 10 years probably.

The weird thing is, we will have no way of knowing if Luka ever would have gotten his ass in gear while he was here. If he does it in LA, it will probably be because of his "F you" mentality that the trade created.

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I think you can give the F You effort short term, but I am doubtful that a player can change their entire life around it for a decade. Luka may drop 100 on Feb 25th, but I don't think he will develop Mamba Mentality for the rest of his career to prove Nico wrong.

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I don't think he needs to. The dude might not have the conditioning ethic we wanted, but the holding himself to legendary standards for wins and losses and the generational talent ego and hatred for losses is clearly there, fat boy or not. The dude is 25. I was a 3 night a week bar binge drinker at 25. My bet would be on playing good cop bad cop with him internally to make him revenge body for the Mavs and betting on his maturation. Losing makes people like Luka angry. There was too much meat on the bone and upside there to throw it away…and that's just the on court stuff. There's not a single justification for off court business stuff, unless you like devaluing a brand, especially in a football first town.

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It isn't there enough to make him not gain weight from the final regular season game to the playoffs. It isn't there enough to get his body right in the offseason to the point where you don't get injured in a pickup game before training camp.

Like GS said above, he doesn't have that long term singular focus/discipline. He only has it when he's on the court.

It's possible he wins a championship and maybe multiple championships. I just disagree with most people's thoughts on the likelihood of it happening.

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shack009 said:

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MW03 said:

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shack009 said:

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CC09LawAg said:

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shack009 said:

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bearcat said:

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I know it isn't a popular thought but I really believe the Mavs are closer to an NBA championship after the trade. Would you give up 10 more years of Luka for a championship? I would. Could Luka have won a title? Possibly, but they most likely were going to have to rebuild around him and Lively with very little money to do so. They would have to do it in the draft.

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Obviously the issue is that injuries are very real, particularly for AD.

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This is where every argument like this dies - there are a ton of other great players that may be at the tail end of or just exiting their primes where you could MAYBE justify it.

But AD is NOT one of those guys because of his track record. All arguments about the "short term window" do not cut it because they traded for damaged goods.

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His track record is also somewhat exaggerated now. He only has 4 years of less than 60 games played and he only has 2 of less than 54 games played. He was also completely healthy all of last season.

Obviously we are bit right now, but get him surgery and fully healed for next season and it is more likely he plays 75%+ of the games than not.

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It may be a little exaggerated, but this will be his 7th double-digit absence in the last 7 years. He's played 73% of available games over that period, missing 151 total.

• 2013, ankle sprain
• 2013, back injury
• 2015, shoulder and knee surgery
• 2018, back injury
• 2022, foot sprain and MCL sprain
• 2023, stress fracture and bone spur

FWIW, Luka has missed 82% of his games over the same timeframe (105 total).

I also don't like the way he left New Orleans, but that's beside the point.

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Not true. He played in 76 regular season games and all 5 playoff games last year. That's 6 games missed last season.

Also double digit games missed means nothing. Most guys rest on back to backs or sit in a game where they would have played if it were the playoffs.

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shack009 said:

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I think it is worth noting that everybody you pointed out, other than Dirk is also an elite defender and athlete. Dirk was at least 7' tall so could offer some rim protection and rebounding from the 4.

Luka is just such a strange player and it's hard to compare him to anybody. His size is awesome for a PG, but he's also just not good enough at defense to guard the guys he will have to. His team has to be perfectly constructed around him.

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Guitarsoup said:

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shack009 said:

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I think it is worth noting that everybody you pointed out, other than Dirk is also an elite defender and athlete. Dirk was at least 7' tall so could offer some rim protection and rebounding from the 4.

Luka is just such a strange player and it's hard to compare him to anybody. His size is awesome for a PG, but he's also just not good enough at defense to guard the guys he will have to. His team has to be perfectly constructed around him.

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I'm thinking Austin Reaves, Dalton Knecht, and Jaxson Hayes aren't the theoretical ideal players to surround him with.

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shack009 said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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shack009 said:

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I think it is worth noting that everybody you pointed out, other than Dirk is also an elite defender and athlete. Dirk was at least 7' tall so could offer some rim protection and rebounding from the 4.

Luka is just such a strange player and it's hard to compare him to anybody. His size is awesome for a PG, but he's also just not good enough at defense to guard the guys he will have to. His team has to be perfectly constructed around him.

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I'm thinking Austin Reaves, Dalton Knecht, and Jaxson Hayes aren't the theoretical ideal players to surround him with.

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It will collapse hilariously in the playoffs in the near term.

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South Platte said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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I think you can give the F You effort short term, but I am doubtful that a player can change their entire life around it for a decade. Luka may drop 100 on Feb 25th, but I don't think he will develop Mamba Mentality for the rest of his career to prove Nico wrong.

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But Luka will win an NBA title before the Mavericks do. Maybe it isn't in LA, but it will happen.

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shack009 said:

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MW03 said:

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shack009 said:

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CC09LawAg said:

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shack009 said:

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bearcat said:

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I know it isn't a popular thought but I really believe the Mavs are closer to an NBA championship after the trade. Would you give up 10 more years of Luka for a championship? I would. Could Luka have won a title? Possibly, but they most likely were going to have to rebuild around him and Lively with very little money to do so. They would have to do it in the draft.

---

Obviously the issue is that injuries are very real, particularly for AD.

---

This is where every argument like this dies - there are a ton of other great players that may be at the tail end of or just exiting their primes where you could MAYBE justify it.

But AD is NOT one of those guys because of his track record. All arguments about the "short term window" do not cut it because they traded for damaged goods.

---

His track record is also somewhat exaggerated now. He only has 4 years of less than 60 games played and he only has 2 of less than 54 games played. He was also completely healthy all of last season.

Obviously we are bit right now, but get him surgery and fully healed for next season and it is more likely he plays 75%+ of the games than not.

---

It may be a little exaggerated, but this will be his 7th double-digit absence in the last 7 years. He's played 73% of available games over that period, missing 151 total.

• 2013, ankle sprain
• 2013, back injury
• 2015, shoulder and knee surgery
• 2018, back injury
• 2022, foot sprain and MCL sprain
• 2023, stress fracture and bone spur

FWIW, Luka has missed 82% of his games over the same timeframe (105 total).

I also don't like the way he left New Orleans, but that's beside the point.

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Not true. He played in 76 regular season games and all 5 playoff games last year. That's 6 games missed last season.

Also double digit games missed means nothing. Most guys rest on back to backs or sit in a game where they would have played if it were the playoffs.

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Zachary Klement said:

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shack009 said:

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MW03 said:

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shack009 said:

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CC09LawAg said:

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shack009 said:

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bearcat said:

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I know it isn't a popular thought but I really believe the Mavs are closer to an NBA championship after the trade. Would you give up 10 more years of Luka for a championship? I would. Could Luka have won a title? Possibly, but they most likely were going to have to rebuild around him and Lively with very little money to do so. They would have to do it in the draft.

---

Obviously the issue is that injuries are very real, particularly for AD.

---

This is where every argument like this dies - there are a ton of other great players that may be at the tail end of or just exiting their primes where you could MAYBE justify it.

But AD is NOT one of those guys because of his track record. All arguments about the "short term window" do not cut it because they traded for damaged goods.

---

His track record is also somewhat exaggerated now. He only has 4 years of less than 60 games played and he only has 2 of less than 54 games played. He was also completely healthy all of last season.

Obviously we are bit right now, but get him surgery and fully healed for next season and it is more likely he plays 75%+ of the games than not.

---

It may be a little exaggerated, but this will be his 7th double-digit absence in the last 7 years. He's played 73% of available games over that period, missing 151 total.

• 2013, ankle sprain
• 2013, back injury
• 2015, shoulder and knee surgery
• 2018, back injury
• 2022, foot sprain and MCL sprain
• 2023, stress fracture and bone spur

FWIW, Luka has missed 82% of his games over the same timeframe (105 total).

I also don't like the way he left New Orleans, but that's beside the point.

---

Not true. He played in 76 regular season games and all 5 playoff games last year. That's 6 games missed last season.

Also double digit games missed means nothing. Most guys rest on back to backs or sit in a game where they would have played if it were the playoffs.

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That seems to be the outlier in recent years...he has exceeded 56 games twice since 2018. One of those years was last year and the other year was the COVID year where there was a massive break for the entire NBA. This year could be the third time in five years that he has failed to play 50 games total.

Kinda wild that you are defending Davis's health while parroting the Nico "Luka is out of shape" narrative. That has always been overblown and the idea that he cannot improve in that area is ridiculous...Jokic was 300 lbs earlier in his career and I have never seen pictures of fat Luka that look anywhere close to as bad as some of the early fat Jokic pictures.

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Guitarsoup said:

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Zachary Klement said:

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shack009 said:

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MW03 said:

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shack009 said:

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CC09LawAg said:

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shack009 said:

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bearcat said:

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I know it isn't a popular thought but I really believe the Mavs are closer to an NBA championship after the trade. Would you give up 10 more years of Luka for a championship? I would. Could Luka have won a title? Possibly, but they most likely were going to have to rebuild around him and Lively with very little money to do so. They would have to do it in the draft.

---

Obviously the issue is that injuries are very real, particularly for AD.

---

This is where every argument like this dies - there are a ton of other great players that may be at the tail end of or just exiting their primes where you could MAYBE justify it.

But AD is NOT one of those guys because of his track record. All arguments about the "short term window" do not cut it because they traded for damaged goods.

---

His track record is also somewhat exaggerated now. He only has 4 years of less than 60 games played and he only has 2 of less than 54 games played. He was also completely healthy all of last season.

Obviously we are bit right now, but get him surgery and fully healed for next season and it is more likely he plays 75%+ of the games than not.

---

It may be a little exaggerated, but this will be his 7th double-digit absence in the last 7 years. He's played 73% of available games over that period, missing 151 total.

• 2013, ankle sprain
• 2013, back injury
• 2015, shoulder and knee surgery
• 2018, back injury
• 2022, foot sprain and MCL sprain
• 2023, stress fracture and bone spur

FWIW, Luka has missed 82% of his games over the same timeframe (105 total).

I also don't like the way he left New Orleans, but that's beside the point.

---

Not true. He played in 76 regular season games and all 5 playoff games last year. That's 6 games missed last season.

Also double digit games missed means nothing. Most guys rest on back to backs or sit in a game where they would have played if it were the playoffs.

---

That seems to be the outlier in recent years...he has exceeded 56 games twice since 2018. One of those years was last year and the other year was the COVID year where there was a massive break for the entire NBA. This year could be the third time in five years that he has failed to play 50 games total.

Kinda wild that you are defending Davis's health while parroting the Nico "Luka is out of shape" narrative. That has always been overblown and the idea that he cannot improve in that area is ridiculous...Jokic was 300 lbs earlier in his career and I have never seen pictures of fat Luka that look anywhere close to as bad as some of the early fat Jokic pictures.

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Jokic is an awful comparison because even if he is more pudgy than most, he never seems to be banged up and doesn't really miss any games other than typical superstar rest.

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Guitarsoup said:

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Zachary Klement said:

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shack009 said:

---

MW03 said:

---

shack009 said:

---

CC09LawAg said:

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shack009 said:

---

bearcat said:

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I know it isn't a popular thought but I really believe the Mavs are closer to an NBA championship after the trade. Would you give up 10 more years of Luka for a championship? I would. Could Luka have won a title? Possibly, but they most likely were going to have to rebuild around him and Lively with very little money to do so. They would have to do it in the draft.

---

Obviously the issue is that injuries are very real, particularly for AD.

---

This is where every argument like this dies - there are a ton of other great players that may be at the tail end of or just exiting their primes where you could MAYBE justify it.

But AD is NOT one of those guys because of his track record. All arguments about the "short term window" do not cut it because they traded for damaged goods.

---

His track record is also somewhat exaggerated now. He only has 4 years of less than 60 games played and he only has 2 of less than 54 games played. He was also completely healthy all of last season.

Obviously we are bit right now, but get him surgery and fully healed for next season and it is more likely he plays 75%+ of the games than not.

---

It may be a little exaggerated, but this will be his 7th double-digit absence in the last 7 years. He's played 73% of available games over that period, missing 151 total.

• 2013, ankle sprain
• 2013, back injury
• 2015, shoulder and knee surgery
• 2018, back injury
• 2022, foot sprain and MCL sprain
• 2023, stress fracture and bone spur

FWIW, Luka has missed 82% of his games over the same timeframe (105 total).

I also don't like the way he left New Orleans, but that's beside the point.

---

Not true. He played in 76 regular season games and all 5 playoff games last year. That's 6 games missed last season.

Also double digit games missed means nothing. Most guys rest on back to backs or sit in a game where they would have played if it were the playoffs.

---

That seems to be the outlier in recent years...he has exceeded 56 games twice since 2018. One of those years was last year and the other year was the COVID year where there was a massive break for the entire NBA. This year could be the third time in five years that he has failed to play 50 games total.

Kinda wild that you are defending Davis's health while parroting the Nico "Luka is out of shape" narrative. That has always been overblown and the idea that he cannot improve in that area is ridiculous...Jokic was 300 lbs earlier in his career and I have never seen pictures of fat Luka that look anywhere close to as bad as some of the early fat Jokic pictures.

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Jokic is an awful comparison because even if he is more pudgy than most, he never seems to be banged up and doesn't really miss any games other than typical superstar rest.

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dave94 said:

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South Platte said:

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Come on guys, there is literally not one good thing that can come from this trade, and everybody knows it. You don't have to work in professional basketball to see it.

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The spin coming out of some people to try and make this make any iota of sense is comical.

It's BAD and will always be seen as BAD. Like, setting a franchise back a decade bad.

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Guitarsoup said:

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South Platte said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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I think you can give the F You effort short term, but I am doubtful that a player can change their entire life around it for a decade. Luka may drop 100 on Feb 25th, but I don't think he will develop Mamba Mentality for the rest of his career to prove Nico wrong.

---

But Luka will win an NBA title before the Mavericks do. Maybe it isn't in LA, but it will happen.

---

There's just no backing for this. The Lakers are historically great at attracting talent because they are the Lakers, but they have also made lots of dumb moves to bring in talent like gutting the team for Brodie and that Mark Williams trade that I thought was horrendous. If Luka leaves the Lakers, it means Luka was a massive problem or the Lakers royally ****ed up.

But I don't buy the thought that "Luka will win a title somewhere just because he is a great player" like of thinking. Roster building starts with a top 10 guy like Luka, but it takes a lot more than that to succeed.

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dave94 said:

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South Platte said:

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Come on guys, there is literally not one good thing that can come from this trade, and everybody knows it. You don't have to work in professional basketball to see it.

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The spin coming out of some people to try and make this make any iota of sense is comical.

It's BAD and will always be seen as BAD. Like, setting a franchise back a decade bad.

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shack009 said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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Zachary Klement said:

---

shack009 said:

---

MW03 said:

---

shack009 said:

---

CC09LawAg said:

---

shack009 said:

---

bearcat said:

---

I know it isn't a popular thought but I really believe the Mavs are closer to an NBA championship after the trade. Would you give up 10 more years of Luka for a championship? I would. Could Luka have won a title? Possibly, but they most likely were going to have to rebuild around him and Lively with very little money to do so. They would have to do it in the draft.

---

Obviously the issue is that injuries are very real, particularly for AD.

---

This is where every argument like this dies - there are a ton of other great players that may be at the tail end of or just exiting their primes where you could MAYBE justify it.

But AD is NOT one of those guys because of his track record. All arguments about the "short term window" do not cut it because they traded for damaged goods.

---

His track record is also somewhat exaggerated now. He only has 4 years of less than 60 games played and he only has 2 of less than 54 games played. He was also completely healthy all of last season.

Obviously we are bit right now, but get him surgery and fully healed for next season and it is more likely he plays 75%+ of the games than not.

---

It may be a little exaggerated, but this will be his 7th double-digit absence in the last 7 years. He's played 73% of available games over that period, missing 151 total.

• 2013, ankle sprain
• 2013, back injury
• 2015, shoulder and knee surgery
• 2018, back injury
• 2022, foot sprain and MCL sprain
• 2023, stress fracture and bone spur

FWIW, Luka has missed 82% of his games over the same timeframe (105 total).

I also don't like the way he left New Orleans, but that's beside the point.

---

Not true. He played in 76 regular season games and all 5 playoff games last year. That's 6 games missed last season.

Also double digit games missed means nothing. Most guys rest on back to backs or sit in a game where they would have played if it were the playoffs.

---

That seems to be the outlier in recent years...he has exceeded 56 games twice since 2018. One of those years was last year and the other year was the COVID year where there was a massive break for the entire NBA. This year could be the third time in five years that he has failed to play 50 games total.

Kinda wild that you are defending Davis's health while parroting the Nico "Luka is out of shape" narrative. That has always been overblown and the idea that he cannot improve in that area is ridiculous...Jokic was 300 lbs earlier in his career and I have never seen pictures of fat Luka that look anywhere close to as bad as some of the early fat Jokic pictures.

---

Jokic is an awful comparison because even if he is more pudgy than most, he never seems to be banged up and doesn't really miss any games other than typical superstar rest.

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Not to mention he's 7' tall and gets to play around the rim on defense and guard slow people. He also runs offense completely differently thank Luka. He doesn't need to be in that great shape to do what he needs to do.

People can't come up with a comp for Luka because there isn't one. Luka is an insane offensive player that plays a really unique style. He also has to guard athletes/wings on defense. That's where his issue is. Hes the least athletic guard/wing defender of any elite player possibly ever.

It's funny that the best comp people have for him is big men. He moves like big men on defense only without the ability to protect the rim or even look like a deterrent.

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Guitarsoup said:

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South Platte said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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I think you can give the F You effort short term, but I am doubtful that a player can change their entire life around it for a decade. Luka may drop 100 on Feb 25th, but I don't think he will develop Mamba Mentality for the rest of his career to prove Nico wrong.

---

But Luka will win an NBA title before the Mavericks do. Maybe it isn't in LA, but it will happen.

---

There's just no backing for this. The Lakers are historically great at attracting talent because they are the Lakers, but they have also made lots of dumb moves to bring in talent like gutting the team for Brodie and that Mark Williams trade that I thought was horrendous. If Luka leaves the Lakers, it means Luka was a massive problem or the Lakers royally ****ed up.

But I don't buy the thought that "Luka will win a title somewhere just because he is a great player" like of thinking. Roster building starts with a top 10 guy like Luka, but it takes a lot more than that to succeed.

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Zachary Klement said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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South Platte said:

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Guitarsoup said:

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I think you can give the F You effort short term, but I am doubtful that a player can change their entire life around it for a decade. Luka may drop 100 on Feb 25th, but I don't think he will develop Mamba Mentality for the rest of his career to prove Nico wrong.

---

But Luka will win an NBA title before the Mavericks do. Maybe it isn't in LA, but it will happen.

---

There's just no backing for this. The Lakers are historically great at attracting talent because they are the Lakers, but they have also made lots of dumb moves to bring in talent like gutting the team for Brodie and that Mark Williams trade that I thought was horrendous. If Luka leaves the Lakers, it means Luka was a massive problem or the Lakers royally ****ed up.

But I don't buy the thought that "Luka will win a title somewhere just because he is a great player" like of thinking. Roster building starts with a top 10 guy like Luka, but it takes a lot more than that to succeed.

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Solely based on the fact LA now has a top-10 player under the age of 25 and the Mavs's core is comprised of dudes who are 32 or older and are pretty injury prone, it feels like a pretty safe assumption. Especially when you factor in the point that you just made about LA attracting talent naturally and the fact that Dallas likely just became a much less desirable FA destination A) because they no longer have a young star and B) because what star player would want to come play for this org after the way everyone saw them dump Luka?

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Quote:

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While Zaccanelli vowed to conduct a GM search, it soon became clear that he would delay that hire as long as possible- perhaps indefinitely. Zaccanelli was having the time of his life. After conquering the real-estate world with his savvy and charm. Zaccanelli figured outsmarting NBA decision-makers wouldn't be that hard. "Hey," he said, "this isn't brain surgery."

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chris1515 said:

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Maybe the NBA will make it up to the fan base by "letting" the Mav's win the lottery and get Cooper Flagg.

I mean, do they really want the fan base in one of their biggest markets in open revolt against the owner and GM?


We all know the nba draft lottery is 100% legit right??

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