homeowner's insurance - NOT sustainable

18,279 Views | 172 Replies | Last: 7 mo ago by Comeby!
The Silverback
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Bearkat, so yes you are in a tough situation....A couple of things:

SageSure is actually a managing company who underwrites for 5 or 6 actual insurance companies underneath them. So while your policy is through Goosehead as the agent, and Sagesure as the insurance company, the actual insurer is either Sure, SafePort, Occidental, Vave, etc.

So odds are they simply switched the insurer to someone else. And in doing so they will treat you as new business and do a new inspection. So any new damage would now be detected and/or the original inspection did not detect it the first time around.

So your options now are to try and file a claim from Beryl on your old policy which will be tough, pay for a new roof out of pocket or continue to shop to another carrier.

I can say this, SageSure probably has the strictest inspections of any carrier I write with. Their rates are great (relatively speaking) but the inspections can be a pain in the ass. And they don't order it until after the policy is issued so a lot of times you wont realize potential issues until after the fact.
permabull
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It's also a self feeding issue

People get new roofs every time the wind blows
Rates go up
Now people expect a free roof because they pay so much for insurance
Rates go up even more

The one good thing is it looks like deductables are getting so high (and not being waived like that used to be) people are starting to have quality class 4 roofs put on.
BearkatRunner88
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Silverback - really appreciate the feedback here.

I definitely am not very educated on all the different parties, etc. so the breakdown is really helpful. This process has left me feeling fairly ignorant. It's certainly been very frustrating.

As many have said, the system here is just a mess. I felt like I was doing the right thing (morally) at the time when Beryl came through by not just making my insurance company my first phone call and filing a claim. Got a few quotes, most of which said go and replace your and a couple said I could probably do some minor repairs and eventually would have to replace the roof once it go older.

Well now all I've done is replace the damage and put myself in even more limbo it seems because I did go and address the original problem areas that needed attention but that is some how not enough??

That said, I did go ahead and file a claim last night probably just because I feel like I want to make a point out of the situation I'm in. And I know its not really SageSure (as you pointed out) but I want to hear them say to me that all at the same time they will 1). deny a claim saying the roof doesn't need to be replaced while 2) also saying that they wont insure me cause the roof needs to be replaced.
Diggity
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BearkatRunner88 said:

Silverback - really appreciate the feedback here.

I definitely am not very educated on all the different parties, etc. so the breakdown is really helpful. This process has left me feeling fairly ignorant. It's certainly been very frustrating.

As many have said, the system here is just a mess. I felt like I was doing the right thing (morally) at the time when Beryl came through by not just making my insurance company my first phone call and filing a claim. Got a few quotes, most of which said go and replace your and a couple said I could probably do some minor repairs and eventually would have to replace the roof once it go older.

Well now all I've done is replace the damage and put myself in even more limbo it seems because I did go and address the original problem areas that needed attention but that is some how not enough??

That said, I did go ahead and file a claim last night probably just because I feel like I want to make a point out of the situation I'm in. And I know its not really SageSure (as you pointed out) but I want to hear them say to me that all at the same time they will 1). deny a claim saying the roof doesn't need to be replaced while 2) also saying that they wont insure me cause the roof needs to be replaced.
the rub is that they're not denying insurance because of the condition of the roof, rather the age. They don't really need to prove anything in that scenario.
BearkatRunner88
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I guess I just didn't realize a roof only lasted for 11 years. Maybe that is on me. Feel like you always use to hear "30 year roof".
Diggity
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totally agree. used to be that common thought was a 30 year shingle was good for 20 in Texas.

Now, the insurance companies have decided that number is 10. Totally silly.
Medaggie
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springagg said:

For those with paid off houses and wanting to take on a little more risk, you can drop windstorm and hail off your policy and your rate will probably drop 50% if not more. You would basically be covered for fire and liability only. All depends on your risk tolerance.. insurance by definition is "transfer of risk". Would have to review the policy, but would lose windstorm, hail, tornado, and most likely sudden water damage (pipe were to break in house and cause damage)
Do you know what companies do this? I am ready to pay off some properties and just go for catastrophic coverage. I am good with covering 25k roof if it saves me 3k/yr in premium.
Thunderstruck xx
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I'm using State Farm, and it is $1500/yr with a 1% policy deductible and 1% wind/hail on 3000 sqft. I guess the deductible kind of sucks based on the home value, but not too bad for me at the moment. I do get a discount by bundling it with my auto insurance. My next renewal isn't until September, so I'm worried it might go up a lot based on what I'm hearing.
ChoppinDs40
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Thunderstruck xx said:

I'm using State Farm, and it is $1500/yr with a 1% policy deductible and 1% wind/hail on 3000 sqft. I guess the deductible kind of sucks based on the home value, but not too bad for me at the moment. I do get a discount by bundling it with my auto insurance. My next renewal isn't until September, so I'm worried it might go up a lot based on what I'm hearing.


Where are you?
Thunderstruck xx
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Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Bexar County
ChoppinDs40
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Thunderstruck xx said:

Fair Oaks Ranch, TX
Bexar County


Not bad but you're not quite in the hail belt most are talking here.
Thunderstruck xx
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I hadn't seen hail in several years. Earlier this year we got some pea sized hail, but that size doesn't do any damage. Where exactly is the hail belt?
TXTransplant
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Thunderstruck xx said:

I'm using State Farm, and it is $1500/yr with a 1% policy deductible and 1% wind/hail on 3000 sqft. I guess the deductible kind of sucks based on the home value, but not too bad for me at the moment. I do get a discount by bundling it with my auto insurance. My next renewal isn't until September, so I'm worried it might go up a lot based on what I'm hearing.


Just for comparison, I pay $3000 for 2340 sq ft with a 2% wind and hail deductible in Harris County. That's with a brand new roof. I also bundle home and auto with State Farm.

I was under $2k until a couple of years ago, then it jumped to $2600 when my roof surpassed 10 years.

I'm far enough north that wind from a named storm usually isn't too big of an issue, and I don't have any trees close enough to fall on my house.. But we've probably had hail 3-4 times in the last 3 years. And Beryl did (unexpectedly) do quite a bit of damage in my general (but not immediate) area (lots of people did have trees on their roof).

That's another thing about home insurance costs that I've wondered about - people with large trees close enough for them to fall on the roof should have to pay a higher rate!
ChoppinDs40
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Thunderstruck xx said:

I hadn't seen hail in several years. Earlier this year we got some pea sized hail, but that size doesn't do any damage. Where exactly is the hail belt?


Hail belt is going to be DFW area (generally) up through the Midwest. And then continues through Arkansas, northern Louisiana and further east a bit.

You also don't get wind (hurricanes or derechos).
BiggiesLX
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Diggity said:

totally agree. used to be that common thought was a 30 year shingle was good for 20 in Texas.

Now, the insurance companies have decided that number is 10. Totally silly.


I'm also curious about this since I payed out of pocket for a 30 year shingle. When does the manufacturer's warranty kick in to act as supplemental coverage?
YouBet
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Yes. Thank you.

This is why I've taken the somewhat extreme take on roofs of "If it ain't leaking, then it doesn't need replacing."

Just absurd where this whole industry has gone.
JP76
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BiggiesLX said:

Diggity said:

totally agree. used to be that common thought was a 30 year shingle was good for 20 in Texas.

Now, the insurance companies have decided that number is 10. Totally silly.


I'm also curious about this since I payed out of pocket for a 30 year shingle. When does the manufacturer's warranty kick in to act as supplemental coverage?


Warranty excludes acts of God

From a wear perspective, a 30 year usually last around 18-20 years. A 3 tab 20 year which they stated calling a 25 yr usually only last 12-15 years in Texas heat. I have seen some 20+ year roofs and they were missing 70+ % of the granules.

Jeeper79
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aggie_wes said:

Homeowners insurance went from 2300 - 3300 - 5600 - 8700 during COVID. We're up for renewal late this year and I'm expecting it to be close to 10k.

Never had a claim. This may be the year my insurance cost exceeds my property taxes. FKING ridiculous.
My insurance is already more than my taxes. And insurance plus taxes is more than my mortgage.
Aggie71013
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Similar boat. Insurance + taxes is more than the mortgage. Insurance also went up from <$3k to about $9k in 6 years. Older home (30+) and older roof (10+) is killing me.
MemphisAg1
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HO up 9%. Auto down 18%. Umbrella up 40%. Personal articles up 5%.

Overall up 2%. I was relieved -- I budgeted up 15% due to the craziness of the past several years and having to shop hard and switch carriers. Probably just a temporary reprieve.

For comparison purposes, HO is 0.41% of appraised value with 1% deductible for most perils and 2% for wind/hail damage. Roof is metal, 10 years old.

On the roof... we had a hailstorm recently that damaged a lot of shingle roofs and led to replacements. I looked recently and noticed a few slight dimples here and there, but you have to really look for it. Didn't mention it to the wife because she would get all freaked out about what the neighbors might think. Roof is still good. We'll roll with it and recoup some of that up front investment in the way of lower insurance premiums.
ABATTBQ11
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Diggity said:

that whole conversation becomes immaterial when the deductible ends up being the same or more as the out of pocket cost for a new roof, no?

using your car example, it would be analogous to the insurance company requiring you buy a new car every 10 years, where you could pay them $15K to buy you a "$30K" car....or go out and buy the car yourself for $12K.


It does and it doesn't. The policy and deductible apply to more than just roof damage. Your roof may be old and basically worthless from wear, but what it protects isn't. Say you have a storm that comes through and you have a roof leak that damages some sheetrock and insulation, or maybe you have repeated damage from a leak and only find out after awhile. You need someone to come out and tear out the sheetrock, remediate the moisture, reinsulate, and patch the sheetrock, as well as patch or replace the roof. If it's been leading for awhile and you haven't noticed, you may have wood rot or other issues, too. While the cost of a new roof may be as much as the deductible, the cost of everything else could be substantially more. Again, this is also why insurers don't like old roofs. It's not that they're concerned with the roof itself, they're concerned with the water damage from roof leaks.

It's closer to your auto insurance company requiring you to buy tires every 5 years or when they're down to 3/32" of tread to insure your car up to its full value, not an entirely new car. It's not that they care about the tires, it's that the rest of your car is much more likely to get totaled because you have less traction and a longer stopping distance. Your tires might be the same as your deductible (for the sake of argument), but the car of an accident because you stopped in 100' instead of 75' is way more. That's what they ultimately care about.

And again, from the insurer's perspective, insuring your roof for more than it's worth is basically a guaranteed loss. They're going to make it up in premiums.
FTAco07
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MemphisAg1 said:

HO up 9%. Auto down 18%. Umbrella up 40%. Personal articles up 5%.

Overall up 2%. I was relieved -- I budgeted up 15% due to the craziness of the past several years and having to shop hard and switch carriers. Probably just a temporary reprieve.



Sounds exactly like my renewals. Are you with State Farm by chance? Was shocked my auto went down and Umbrella went up by so much but as a dollar amount it's the smallest premium so doesn't impact like home/auto.
MemphisAg1
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FTAco07 said:

MemphisAg1 said:

HO up 9%. Auto down 18%. Umbrella up 40%. Personal articles up 5%.

Overall up 2%. I was relieved -- I budgeted up 15% due to the craziness of the past several years and having to shop hard and switch carriers. Probably just a temporary reprieve.



Sounds exactly like my renewals. Are you with State Farm by chance?
Yes
TXTransplant
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Same here with SF. Auto went down just a tad when it renewed this month - first time that's happened in a couple of years. Homeowners went up 15% (even with a new roof), and umbrella was nearly double what it was when I originally got the policy about 4 years ago.

I let the umbrella lapse and purchased one through another company.
sam callahan
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So if I replace my 12 year old roof, will my premium go down?

If so, seems like the insurance companies bear some responsibility of this roof racket.
htxag09
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sam callahan said:

So if I replace my 12 year old roof, will my premium go down?

If so, seems like the insurance companies bear some responsibility of this roof racket.

In theory. In reality the year to year premium increases outweigh it. So it'll still go up. Just maybe not as much.
JM04
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Bearkat. I have had this same issue with sagesure multiple times. I have rental houses and had been with an independent agency in league city for 3 years. Last year premiums doubled so I reached out to my Allstate agent who handles my house and cars. He was able to get me back to my normal premiums. However… I got the roof issue on a few houses. One was replaced in 2017 with documents and they still would not cover the house. Ultimately he found another option through Wellington. It's seems the house we have covered by Wellington Through Allstate seem to get approved.
I feel it is a sagesure issue.
GenericAggie
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My theory.

Texans are paying for the natural disasters in other parts of the US over the last 5 years. We've had some big hurricanes and the wildfires were disastrous for the insurance companies.

BenTheGoodAg
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It's all cyclical, though, right? Hurricane Harvey is about tied with Katrina for costliest hurricane on record. I'm sure other states would have said the same about Texas at one point.

I guess I thought risk pools were at the state level, but I know it's more complicated than that with reinsurance.
TRM
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GenericAggie said:

My theory.

Texans are paying for the natural disasters in other parts of the US over the last 5 years. We've had some big hurricanes and the wildfires were disastrous for the insurance companies.


That's not true. State DOI's won't allow it and it's a violation of actuarial principles. They use a state non-catastrophe loss ratio along with a modeled catastrophe loss ratio.
MemphisAg1
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BenTheGoodAg said:

It's all cyclical, though, right? Hurricane Harvey is about tied with Katrina for costliest hurricane on record. I'm sure other states would have said the same about Texas at one point.

I guess I thought risk pools were at the state level, but I know it's more complicated than that with reinsurance.
I've seen plenty of public statements from insurance companies saying they will pursue "revenue initiatives" or something similar in other states to compensate for losses in other states. They technically can't raise your rates because of losses elsewhere, but they find loopholes around it and even speak to it publicly.
GenericAggie
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TRM said:

GenericAggie said:

My theory.

Texans are paying for the natural disasters in other parts of the US over the last 5 years. We've had some big hurricanes and the wildfires were disastrous for the insurance companies.


That's not true. State DOI's won't allow it and it's a violation of actuarial principles. They use a state non-catastrophe loss ratio along with a modeled catastrophe loss ratio.


Explain why our home owners insurance has exploded to 5X what it was a few years ago.

TRM
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Rate Increase = (Non-cat Loss ratio + Non-modeled Cat loss ratio + modeled Cat Loss ratio + Fixed Expense Ratio)/(1 - Variable Expense Ratio- Profit Provision) - 1

That's the basic rate increase formula. You'll get territorial and other classification adjustments like roof type if the rate afterwards.

Inflation tells part of the story for non-catastrophe losses but the loss trend is higher than inflation - it's exploded since COVID as other costs have increased by more than inflation with shifts in the supply curve. Variable expense isn't affected by inflation. Fixed expense is affected by it. Catastrophe losses are another thing.

Catastrophe loads are put into the ratemaking process. Depending on the company it takes somewhere from a 10 to 20 year average of the losses incurred adjusted for inflation and other trends. Recently, there's more tornado activity/damage along Tornadao Alley and Dixie Alley, which both reach into Texas, as well as more hail damage recently than in the past - this effects the state non-modeled cat loss ratio. This portion isn't just hit by inflation, but there's an exposure adjustment as well as with the suburbs pushing outwards, as well as similar loss trend as the non-catastrophe losses..

Previously, it seemed like the Gulf Coast was taking a major hit every 10-15 years. From 2005 until now, there's been a huge uptick in major storms making landfall along Katrina, Ike, Harvey, Irma, Matthew, Michael, Laura, etc. This has caused a shift in modeled cat results, much larger than inflation adjusted as the models get adjusted to account for similar hurricanes than anticipated storms. These results get aggregated down to the state, county, and zip code level, so only the state losses get used in the rate indications. The county and zip code results will can effect the territorial adjustment factors, so the coastal counties bear most of the cost.

Combine that with the tight reinsurance market, companies are retaining more risk (or paying more in fixed expenses to maintain the same risk tolerance). One of the reasons for reinsurance is to stabilize loss results. With the lack of stability, more profit has to be made to cover for the instability. So we have a larger numerator and smaller denominator for a much larger rate increase than usual.

Insurance companies can get away with a lower profit provision IF the market is doing well, so they have some investment income, but that's not the case at the moment. This is how workers comp can be profitable because they depend on investment income to support that line of business since it's long tailed. Property lines are short tailed so not as much investment income. Also, inflation would totally eff over companies that got hit with a big loss and needed to sell some of its portfolio. The bonds are priced at book value on the balance sheet, but they're worth less because of inflation, so companies would be taking loss if they needed to sell bonds.

So you could see a decent rate increase of 20%-50%.

That's only part of the story though. Most companies require you to be insured at least 80% of the market value of your home and Premiums = Rate * MV with market values about doubling recently, so that just about gets you 3x the previous premiums.
Comeby!
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Frisco here as well, 32% increase. 1% coverage retained, 2 year old Class 3 roof. Shopped it around including going to 1% deductible. The breakeven was if I had to replace my roof in less than 5 years, it made sense to keep 1%. We get hail storms every year. We've replaced ours twice, at the 6 year mark. For this year It still makes sense to renew at the increase and keep 1% just because these breakevens assume no spread increase between 1% and 2%.

The risk of not being prudent in the replacement of your roof other than a leak is changing insurance providers, passing that 10 year mark, and selling the house where a buyer inspection and offer obligates a repair and now a disclosure. I've seen this happen before where a homeowner had to buy a $40k to sell the house.
Woods Ag
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GenericAggie said:

TRM said:

GenericAggie said:

My theory.

Texans are paying for the natural disasters in other parts of the US over the last 5 years. We've had some big hurricanes and the wildfires were disastrous for the insurance companies.


That's not true. State DOI's won't allow it and it's a violation of actuarial principles. They use a state non-catastrophe loss ratio along with a modeled catastrophe loss ratio.


Explain why our home owners insurance has exploded to 5X what it was a few years ago.


roof replacements is why our insurance is through the roof (no pun intended). everyone is getting a roof replacement every time i turn around.
 
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