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Even General Ramirez has been quoted as saying "If anyone says anything to you about wearing ACUs in the MSC, tell them that if it is good enough for men and women to fight and die in, it's good enough for me to wear in the MSC.

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Ummm, yeah, I'm going to have to go ahead and respectfully DISagree with this statement. To put it in perspective this logic would hold true to the Tomb of the unknown soldier. Just let the guards wear multicams...

[This message has been edited by Boggsie84 (edited 7/7/2013 7:33p).]

I don't see the similarities between an official honor guard and cadets going to college.

I believe one of the things General Ramirez did was institute a mandatory uniform all over campus policy. So it doesn't matter if you're going to class, going to turn in a paper at a TA's office, or going to meet a nonreg friend for lunch at Sbisa, you're supposed to be in uniform. I can definitely see it being a hassle to always be in uniform, and I'm guessing being relaxed about cadets wearing ACUs is a compromise to that policy.

And the uniform for the MSC should be uniform of the day or better in my opinion.

[This message has been edited by TexAgs staff (edited 7/8/2013 5:15a).]

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I don't see the similarities between an official honor guard and cadets going to college.

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In my mind, going to class is a different issue from the MSC. I believe that drawing a parallel between the MSC and other war memorials is a fair analogy. Besides which, one of the primary functions the Corps of Cadets is to distinguish Texas A&M and its ROTC programs from those of every other college with an ROTC program. Wearing ACUs to class or other places does not do that.

There's a good reason that the Army requires Class A uniforms on Capitol Hill i.e. after years of senior Army officers wearing ACUs to testify while sitting next to the representatives of other services who were attired in a more customary fashion, the senior leadership of the Army decided that the message they were carrying was not being received as well because of the uniform in which they were delivering it. 2¢

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a mandatory uniform all over campus policy

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That's the way it was in the 80's, so when did it change?

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There's a good reason that the Army requires Class A uniforms on Capitol Hill i.e. after years of senior Army officers wearing ACUs to testify while sitting next to the representatives of other services who were attired in a more customary fashion, the senior leadership of the Army decided that the message they were carrying was not being received as well because of the uniform in which they were delivering it.

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When did senior leaders wear ACUs to testify before Congress? The only uniform policy change inside the beltway that I've ever heard of is the Class B's requirement at the Pentagon. I've never heard of anyone going before Congress in ACUs/BDUs/DCUs/etc.


Oh, and the Old Guard wears ACUs at night.

I may be mistaken about testimony before Congress by senior leaders. The story at the link below may have a misattributed photo of Gen Casey. The second photo is not a senior leader but a Soldier in ACUs testifying about conditions at Walter Reed.

http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2011/10/27/chiarelli-history-shows-defense-cuts-costs-lives/



[This message has been edited by Ulysses90 (edited 7/8/2013 9:48p).]

That's Chiarelli, and he's not in Washington in that photo. That's a stock photo from the FORSCOM headquarters.

And the private with no ear who can't take his sunglasses off because of whatever the light does to his eyes can testify naked for all I care. But then I'm from a part of the Army that doesn't think uniforms and shiny shoes make better warriors.

And I still don't see how any of this proves that wearing a combat uniform in a "combat memorial" is degrading or disrespectful

[This message has been edited by Tango mike (edited 7/8/2013 10:42p).]

Can someone explain the new rule where you have to wear your uniform all over campus? So if you wanted to go study in the library in the evening, for example, you have to be in uniform?

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the new rule where you have to wear your uniform all over campus?

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This is funny to see that it is considered "NEW".

My dad, class of 58, couldn't be within 5 miles of A&M and not be in uniform.

When I was @ A&M you had to be in uniform to go into any building on campus, even buildings across the tracks. But I think that after 7pm you could go to the library and study groups off the quad in non regs.

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When I was at A&M you had to be in uniform to go into any building on campus.

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1967-1971, that included Saturdays and Sundays, as well as evenings.

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That's the way it was in the 80's, so when did it change?

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My guess would be the 90's. I don't know why exactly, but talking to former cadets from the 90's it just seems like the Corps' culture was very different than what I get when talking with folks from the 70's or 80's. To me it seemed like everything became about crapping out the fish and looking hard while doing it, rather than developing the fish and teaching the pissheads how to develop and lead underclassmen. Of course though, I wasn't there, and I don't mean to insult any of you 90's fighters.

Back to uniforms though, I know when I was a fish you were allowed to go anywhere in non-regs after evening formation, even if you had a late class. I think it changed the next year to where you had to be in uniform when going to class, no matter the time, unless it was a gym class or you were going to be knee high in chicken/cow poo. But you could wear whatever you wanted if you were studying off the Quad, going to Sbisa for lunch, or going anywhere other than class.

1973-1977: Had to be in uniform to enter any campus bldg other than a dormitory. Class B or better in the MSC at all times. Class D's if you had a class or venue that could overly soil or damage a uniform. Uniforms not required off-campus.

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To me it seemed like everything became about crapping out the fish and looking hard while doing it

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I have had several conversations with the head of discipline about this very thing. He said the majority of this mindset can be directly attributed to the movie Full Metal Jacket. Cadets mimiced what they saw and some literally thought the military was ran like boot camp in the FMJ movie.

During my fish year - Fall '88, crapping the fish out was about one thing and one thing only.

"Get the *****es out of the Band"

They were successful but, to get it done, my class went from about 120 during FOW to about 62 by Final Review. Fortunately those numbers include Artillery Band In B-Company, we only had 13/30 make it to Final Review.

I'm glad that era is over. But, it sounds like in the late 90s/early 2000s, they must have over-corrected the other way.

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I have had several conversations with the head of discipline about this very thing. He said the majority of this mindset can be directly attributed to the movie Full Metal Jacket. Cadets mimiced what they saw and some literally thought the military was ran like boot camp in the FMJ movie.

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How old was the head of discipline when Full Metal Jacket was released? As someone who was between my fish and sophomore years at A&M when FMJ was released I'm going to disagree with that opinion.

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it seemed like everything became about crapping out the fish and looking hard while doing it, rather than developing the fish and teaching the pissheads how to develop and lead underclassmen.

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He said the majority of this mindset can be directly attributed to the movie Full Metal Jacket. Cadets mimicked what they saw and some literally thought the military was ran like boot camp in the FMJ movie.

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Just for historical accuracy, we are all aware that until some ill-defined moment yet to be defined on this thread, the Corps was all about "crapping out the fish and looking hard doing it," right? That would include the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, and early 70s, all of which there is ample evidence for, either in published memoirs, things related to me by relatives, and my personal experience.

What happened to all of the Top Gun wannabe's playing half naked sweaty volley ball on the quad?

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Just for historical accuracy, we are all aware that until some ill-defined moment yet to be defined on this thread, the Corps was all about "crapping out the fish and looking hard doing it," right? That would include the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, and early 70s, all of which there is ample evidence for, either in published memoirs, things related to me by relatives, and my personal experience.

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I see what you're saying, and you make a good point. But, the guys I talked to were mostly drill team guys. And it sounded, to me at least, that the primary objective of the team for a few years in the 90's was to produce the hardest fish, not the best drilled fish. And I've seen video of the team from the late 90's, and they were pretty good, but they didn't win as much as the teams today do. I've also heard similar stories about getting crapped out by guys in the 70's and 80's, but the drill was never ignored at the expense of the crapout.

And the FMJ hypothesis could hold true. I'd expect the cadets in the Corps when the movie was released wouldn't try to become Gunny Hartman overnight. The culture of the Corps would've taken a few years to change, and if there was an increase in D&C cadets during those years it would make sense that they took what they thought they knew of the military and applied it, as opposed to cadets who had gone to LDAC, OCS, or field training during the summer.

But, many of y'all have been out of the Corps since before I was even born. So perhaps my lack of experience and wisdom is showing here.

I have no problem with a cadet expressing his displeasure with how things are in the Corps of Cadets. However I do expect him to be a man about it and put his name to the document.

There have always been Trigon-trotters. Always will be. The Corps is better off without them. If I was Rameriz I'd file this where all anonymous letters belong....the circular file.

Last time I checked, Highway 6 still runs both ways.

I remember my Corps friends saying something about how the only time they couldn't be in uniform is if they had a KINE class after something.
For example: if we had English class they had to be in uniform unless their KINE was directly after.

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I remember my Corps friends saying something about how the only time they couldn't be in uniform is if they had a KINE class after something.
For example: if we had English class they had to be in uniform unless their KINE was directly after.

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When I was in, we had a gray jumpsuit (they were called Class D's) that you wore for that occasion. Either that or fatigues. We never had a reason not to be in uniform while in class unless it was a PE/KINE class.

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(they were called Class D's)

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Sleazy Ds!

I guess it was supposed to resemble a flight suit.

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By that logic I guess the WAGs in 1980 were spoiled *****es like Pvt Benjamin.

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Ib3...that logic does not work because the other films you mentioned did not have any impact on the cadets. FMJ, even to this day, has iconic status amongst the cadets. A copy of it is in the majority of upperclassmen's room's.

Our outfit 1SG in the fall of 1970 had been a Marine PLC and wound up taking a Marine commission when he finally graduated, albeit being in USAF ROTC as a white belt. This was years before FMC came out but he had that DI attitude/voice to him and would have had no problem doing the famous barracks inspection scene by R. Lee Ermey to standard. Having experienced the PLC camp first hand in 1971, that scene resonates with me as being: 1)Accurate,and; 2)Funny as Hell now, back then while living thru a reasonable facsimile of same, not so much.

I remember hearing the 'poke out your eyes and skull f_ck you' line plenty of times. Some of those forgotten fish buds who scurried away in the dark of the night took it literally. Was it fun? Not always. Was it memorable? For sure. Some things you just don't forget....LOL



[This message has been edited by WBBQ74 (edited 7/16/2013 10:28a).]

As I get closer to my time to march in behind the band I seem to spend more time than I probably should reliving the past. I wish I could say that the main thing I learned in the Corps was leadership. But the truth is that what was really valuable was discovering how much crap I could take without quitting. That knowledge has been more useful than anything I might have been taught about leadership.

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[This message has been edited by KnocknessMonster (edited 9/16/2013 11:59p).]

Just trying to think of who you are. I was one of your zips, but from a different outfit. I was next to your commander on Bugle Rank

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sure there were several FMJ inspired soap/towel beatings in boot camps across all the services however I think you've overlearned the lessons from the numerous case studies on the subject. FMJ doesn't explain the hazing death in the 80s Corps of Cadets, it doesn't explain the PMC sexual assault in the early 90s and it's an over generalization to suggest it played any roll in FDT being disbanded.

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All very good points Ib3...very good. I guess I will submit that FMJ had and still has "some"
influence.

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[This message has been edited by KnocknessMonster (edited 9/17/2013 12:00a).]