cityagboy said:

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Are all libertarians against public schools? I'm guessing they are also against the government paying for poor kids to attend private schools. How do kids get an education if there aren't public schools and they can't afford private schools?

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The answer is the charter school program. However, 7nine is not a true libertarian.

Baba Booey said:

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cityagboy said:

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Are all libertarians against public schools? I'm guessing they are also against the government paying for poor kids to attend private schools. How do kids get an education if there aren't public schools and they can't afford private schools?

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The answer is the charter school program. However, 7nine is not a true libertarian.

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Who would issue said charter?

Unless it is "the market" charter schools are not a libertarian answer.

AggieOO said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Ok, show me all the small apartments that these millions and millions of 2 parent working families live in. You just saying it doesn't make it so. I can throw out statements as well with no actual data to back it up:

I lived in apartments for most of my adult life. Most all the 2 parents families stayed there no more than a year. Usually they were moving to a house or bigger apartment. Most of the ones that stayed there for years drove Mercedes and Escalades or other really nice cars.

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start here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_York_City_Housing_Authority_properties

and that's just NYC housing authority.

Its amazing how the more you post on this thread, the less I agree with you. I can't imagine having lived a life as sheltered as you must have. You seem to have little grasp on the world outside of upper middle class white people.

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What am I looking at. The number of apartments in NYC? WTF does that tell me?

Baba Booey said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Ok, show me all the small apartments that these millions and millions of 2 parent working families live in. You just saying it doesn't make it so. I can throw out statements as well with no actual data to back it up:

I lived in apartments for most of my adult life. Most all the 2 parents families stayed there no more than a year. Usually they were moving to a house or bigger apartment. Most of the ones that stayed there for years drove Mercedes and escalates and really nice cars.

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You've spent all day throwing out statements with no data to back them up.

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Sorry, your posts were so full of factual statistics.

Keegan99 said:

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I'm going to guess these apartments you lived in weren't in zip codes where the median income was below $30k.

You know all the parts of town you don't go to after dark, if at all? Lots of people live there.

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I lived in low income apartment housing that I had to qualify for for 3 years. I was paying around $380 a month in rent for my 1 bedroom.

And this is not the people I'm talking about here. These people, living in these types of places have government assistance for many aspects of their kids lives. But these are not the majority of 2 parent households or even close to it.

Texaggie7nine said:

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Ok, show me all the small apartments that these millions and millions of 2 parent working families live in. You just saying it doesn't make it so. I can throw out statements as well with no actual data to back it up:

I lived in apartments for most of my adult life. Most all the 2 parents families stayed there no more than a year. Usually they were moving to a house or bigger apartment. Most of the ones that stayed there for years drove Mercedes and Escalades or other really nice cars.

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You're assuming renters are only in apartments, because in your world that's what you do when you start out. Well there is no moving up to a house or bigger apartment if they both can't work for one.

~35-36% of people in the US rent BTW. That's about 100m people give or take. If 25% of those have children, than that is what 25m people conservatively.

You assume apartments when you hear rent, it could be duplexes or homes in all manner of neighborhoods.
Not sure what city you live in but pull up the pull pattern of Round Rock McNeil High School. Drive to the 183 side of that pull pattern and drive around...there you will see the duplexes and low/mid level apartments.

Pull their test scores and demographics for that High School.

Then pull Round Rock Westwood.

ok I'm gaming the search some there, because RR WW is or recently was a top 10 public high school in Texas. It is a 5-10 minute drive from McNeil. Now pull WW's pull pattern. There you will see mainly single family/owned homes of folks that work for largely tech companies in Austin. They work from home.

McNeil's lower end families aren't desperately poor, they are working class families for the most part. Working class in the modern parlance of our times means on avg less than $500 in savings and more than likely wrecked/not great credit meaning everything they buy on terms comes at high interest. Maybe they made bad choices, maybe bad luck, maybe they didn't know about how the system works whatever.

Do the same thing with the populations of Vista Ridge and Leander High Schools. I can get to both in 5 and 10 minutes respectively on surface roads. Leander HS is where you'll find the duplexes and trailers of the working poor. What we would have called Cedar Choppers when I was a kid or what my mom would've called White Trash. There are more racially specific names these days.

Go to AISD (a rapidly de-populating school district in the fastest growing city in this part of the country). Think about that housing costs are causing AISD to close schools because families can't afford to live here. I mean I guess if they sold their ghetto fabulous Escalades they could live there...I mean since all poor people in apartments are there because of luxury cars.

Now go to the 4th ward in Houston. Someone I know very well monitors those elementary schools as part of accountability and funding. Many of those schools have populations where literally 100% of the kids are on free and reduced lunch. Single parent rates at 85%+. One set of clothes, maybe running water for a huge swatch of the enrolled.

Those kids are basically screwed, I mean for the majority of them its pretty much over in our current system. These are kids of parents trying to get them to school, there are many that just never get enrolled. Who educates those kids, what happens to them. Who deals with them when they aren't kids anymore.

Think about the next time a meth addict steals your car battery for the lead in it. There is a growing issue in this country around economic mobility and it continues to grow. We talk about income gap and that's a problem but while that can often be attributed to personal choice mobility is more about personal opportunity.

I can go on and on with the societal data and you can continue to circle and circle wrapped in the warm embrace of Libertarian ideals...being a Libertarian at heart I can empathize.

Duncan Idaho said:

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Baba Booey said:

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cityagboy said:

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Are all libertarians against public schools? I'm guessing they are also against the government paying for poor kids to attend private schools. How do kids get an education if there aren't public schools and they can't afford private schools?

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The answer is the charter school program. However, 7nine is not a true libertarian.

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Who would issue said charter?

Unless it is "the market" charter schools are not a libertarian answer.

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I was going to ask the same question. I believe most charter schools still receive state funding.

Texaggie7nine said:

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AggieOO said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Ok, show me all the small apartments that these millions and millions of 2 parent working families live in. You just saying it doesn't make it so. I can throw out statements as well with no actual data to back it up:

I lived in apartments for most of my adult life. Most all the 2 parents families stayed there no more than a year. Usually they were moving to a house or bigger apartment. Most of the ones that stayed there for years drove Mercedes and Escalades or other really nice cars.

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start here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_York_City_Housing_Authority_properties

and that's just NYC housing authority.

Its amazing how the more you post on this thread, the less I agree with you. I can't imagine having lived a life as sheltered as you must have. You seem to have little grasp on the world outside of upper middle class white people.

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What am I looking at. The number of apartments in NYC? WTF does that tell me?

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You could start by learning what Section 8 housing is and look into the income of families that live in the projects. There are hundreds of thousands of families living in section 8 housing.

I didn't send you a list of all apartments in NYC. I sent you a list of Section 8 housing that the NY Housing Authority owns/manages. That's not even all the Section 8 housing.

You are further showing your ignorance.

I get what you are saying, but you are not addressing my real question. I will just say it because the data you are trying to present does not address what I'm saying.

How many 2 parent working households out there exist that if one parent stopped working for a year or so would go absolutely to living on the streets poor and unable to survive?

I really don't see data telling me it will be millions and millions. The median household income of 2 parent households I think is like over $75k. I understand how statistics work so I'm not saying that means the majority of households live at or above that, I'm just saying that's a pretty healthy number to have so many 2 working parent households living 1 paycheck away from not being able to afford any type of housing or food.

cityagboy said:

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Duncan Idaho said:

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Baba Booey said:

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cityagboy said:

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Are all libertarians against public schools? I'm guessing they are also against the government paying for poor kids to attend private schools. How do kids get an education if there aren't public schools and they can't afford private schools?

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The answer is the charter school program. However, 7nine is not a true libertarian.

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Who would issue said charter?

Unless it is "the market" charter schools are not a libertarian answer.

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I was going to ask the same question. I believe most charter schools still receive state funding.

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Not most, but I didn't mean the state subsidized charters currently in the first place.

AggieOO said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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AggieOO said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Ok, show me all the small apartments that these millions and millions of 2 parent working families live in. You just saying it doesn't make it so. I can throw out statements as well with no actual data to back it up:

I lived in apartments for most of my adult life. Most all the 2 parents families stayed there no more than a year. Usually they were moving to a house or bigger apartment. Most of the ones that stayed there for years drove Mercedes and Escalades or other really nice cars.

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start here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_York_City_Housing_Authority_properties

and that's just NYC housing authority.

Its amazing how the more you post on this thread, the less I agree with you. I can't imagine having lived a life as sheltered as you must have. You seem to have little grasp on the world outside of upper middle class white people.

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What am I looking at. The number of apartments in NYC? WTF does that tell me?

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You could start by learning what Section 8 housing is and look into the income of families that live in the projects. There are hundreds of thousands of families living in section 8 housing.

I didn't send you a list of all apartments in NYC. I sent you a list of Section 8 housing that the NY Housing Authority owns/manages. That's not even all the Section 8 housing.

You are further showing your ignorance.

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Ok, good for you, now tell me how many of those apartments have married couples with both working. Until you can do that, you are telling me nothing.

Do you think I'm trying to say that there aren't a lot of poor people in the US?? seriously?

That's a fact the vast majority receive state funds. Same person I mentioned above has also monitored charter schools. They have some absolute horror stories to tell from outright criminal behavior to terrible curriculum to everything in between.

That said there are some really really really great charter schools. Meridian in Round Rock for example is superb and is open to all kids in Williamson County on a lottery system. But its not a pancea. There is no transportation provided (most don't offer transport) and they have non traditional hours and no after school care so its difficult for some populations to take advantage.

There is another charter school in RR that is just a bit smaller and struggles mightly in terms of compliance and performance. Both get state funds. Both pull from largely the same population base. One is just better run than the other.

Just because its a charter or private school doesn't mean that its superior.

cityagboy said:

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Duncan Idaho said:

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Baba Booey said:

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cityagboy said:

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Are all libertarians against public schools? I'm guessing they are also against the government paying for poor kids to attend private schools. How do kids get an education if there aren't public schools and they can't afford private schools?

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The answer is the charter school program. However, 7nine is not a true libertarian.

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Who would issue said charter?

Unless it is "the market" charter schools are not a libertarian answer.

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I was going to ask the same question. I believe most charter schools still receive state funding.

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Truthfully, I am not against public schools altogether. I just think the fed should play no part in it. I think it should be up to each county and state on how they want to handle it.

Libertarian positions on the matter can vary from local public schools like I support, to complete abolition of public schools. In the latter scenario, all education would be funded privately by parents and charity. The argument goes that the market would reduce costs so much that there would be very affordable options for even the poor and what they couldn't afford would be met by private charities.

Texaggie7nine said:

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AggieOO said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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AggieOO said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Ok, show me all the small apartments that these millions and millions of 2 parent working families live in. You just saying it doesn't make it so. I can throw out statements as well with no actual data to back it up:

I lived in apartments for most of my adult life. Most all the 2 parents families stayed there no more than a year. Usually they were moving to a house or bigger apartment. Most of the ones that stayed there for years drove Mercedes and Escalades or other really nice cars.

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start here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_York_City_Housing_Authority_properties

and that's just NYC housing authority.

Its amazing how the more you post on this thread, the less I agree with you. I can't imagine having lived a life as sheltered as you must have. You seem to have little grasp on the world outside of upper middle class white people.

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What am I looking at. The number of apartments in NYC? WTF does that tell me?

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You could start by learning what Section 8 housing is and look into the income of families that live in the projects. There are hundreds of thousands of families living in section 8 housing.

I didn't send you a list of all apartments in NYC. I sent you a list of Section 8 housing that the NY Housing Authority owns/manages. That's not even all the Section 8 housing.

You are further showing your ignorance.

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Ok, good for you, now tell me how many of those apartments have married couples with both working. Until you can do that, you are telling me nothing.

Do you think I'm trying to say that there aren't a lot of poor people in the US?? seriously?

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Is this a strawman to say that poor families are largely single income? Or that largely they aren't really working? Where is your data other than contextual data you observed once or twice? Where is your data?

The best data on this will be the next Census I would think.

There is a Harvard study that shows that there are 35m renters. 35% of renters have families. 80% of renters earn less than $50k/year (20% earn in the 20k-50k bracket). 35% of Americans rent. There are as of 2017 over 6m households with head of household 30-34 and 5m between 34-39. Those are prime child rearing years.

Quote:

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There is a Harvard study that shows that there are 35m renters. 35% of renters have families. 80% of renters earn less than $50k/year (20% earn in the 20k-50k bracket). 35% of Americans rent. There are as of 2017 over 6m households with head of household 30-34 and 5m between 34-39. Those are prime child rearing years.

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Where are you extrapolating your estimate of how many of these renters are married couples both working?

You take the fact that the majority of people in our society will have kids and you extroplate and you take into account that most families will be two household in either fact or financial input. Now you do have to factor in that single family is much higher in lower income situations and that also extends to financial assistance in co-parenting scenarios.

Head of household is the chief breadwinner/provider of the family living there. Study doesn't break down marital status, you'd need Census data for that and model off of that.

Projections for sure but still haven't seen anything regarding fact data or reality in any post you've made on this thread. Just assumptions based on limited personal experience.

you still haven't answered the question, where is your data and why do you keep mentioning both parents working. Based on your comments about escalades, phones and tv's I have an assumption of what the basis of your argument is but until you actually state the point of your argument or a solution I will assume you are obtuse or trolling.

Why is the burden of proof on me when no factual data on the amount of 2 parent working households there are living in absolute poverty? Your projections above still tilt heavily to single parent working or single parent households.

I'm not aware of hard numbers on this statistic, and I don't feel like doing a research project to find out. I feel comfortable in my stance on it until I'm proven otherwise.

I do recall some studies awhile back when all the debates among conservatives over if it was better to have a stay at home parent over 2 working parents were going on, and the numbers there seemed to be pretty convincing that many 2 working parent households could cut back in spending on rent and lifestyle and afford to get by with one parent working.

Why I'm sticking to 2 working parents? Because I made the statement of "god forbid one parent stay home" and you fought back as if that is simply not an option for most 2 working parent households.

BeowulfShaeffer said:

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Page, erm, 6. SO, is Fort Bend ISD really done for the year? Any confirmations on other ISDs?

Talk about a derail.

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FBISD is done as face-to-face school is concerned...online will continue through May 28. The superintendent informed teachers and parents in the last 24 hours.

Graduation is tentatively scheduled for July.

This may have already been asked before the complete derail started. If the answer is that kids go to day care when parents go back to work, how is day care different from school?

It isn't different from a safety perspective, but we have to have nurses, first responders, etc. If they are at work their kids need somewhere to go.

cityagboy said:

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It isn't different from a safety perspective, but we have to have nurses, first responders, etc. If they are at work their kids need somewhere to go.

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Then let them go back to school for a while! My wife (teacher) and son are chomping at the bit to go back even if it is for a few weeks. Sending your kids to day care rather than school seems like nonsense.

JB!98 said:

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cityagboy said:

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It isn't different from a safety perspective, but we have to have nurses, first responders, etc. If they are at work their kids need somewhere to go.

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Then let them go back to school for a while! My wife (teacher) and son are chomping at the bit to go back even if it is for a few weeks. Sending your kids to day care rather than school seems like nonsense.

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But the kids who are going are needed to help us stay afloat.

I don't know percentages.... but 10% of kids in a program puts us in a lower risk of spreading covid than 100% of kids in school.

JB!98 said:

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cityagboy said:

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It isn't different from a safety perspective, but we have to have nurses, first responders, etc. If they are at work their kids need somewhere to go.

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Then let them go back to school for a while! My wife (teacher) and son are chomping at the bit to go back even if it is for a few weeks. Sending your kids to day care rather than school seems like nonsense.

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The logic behind it is that smaller groups of children will slow down the spread. Whereas at schools you have hundreds if not thousands of children sharing buildings, in daycare you have significantly less.

Day cares are worse ces pools than school in my experience.

Great point, but wonder how many are really open and or have many kids attending.

That was something that confused me. All the stories and sites that talk about and list daycares that are still open say "for children of essential workers".

Are these daycares qualifying that or do they just take whoever shows up and pays?

That is not supposed to happen.

Is FBISD handing out lunches to students like so many other ISD's? What happens when the on-line school semester ends?

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So day cares have still been open and it isn't spreading like crazy but schools can't open?

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Not only have day cares been open without the virus spreading like crazy, but so have grocery stores, airports, public transportation, pharmacies, gas stations, liquor stores, construction sites, hardware stores, police stations, fire houses, thousands of offices of "essential businesses", gun stores, pet supply stores, sporting goods stores, auto parts stores, auto repair shops, bicycle shops, motorcycle shops, car dealerships, waste collection companies, janitorial services, warehouses, distribution facilities, oil and chemical refining facilities, telecomm providers, all manufacturing facilities, all agricultural / food processing facilities, all forms of logistics, etc., etc., etc.

Quote:

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Most are closed. Those that are open are only supposed to care for kids of first responders, nurses, grocery workers, etc.

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This varies from county to county based on the wording of their shelter in place orders.

Quote:

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That was something that confused me. All the stories and sites that talk about and list daycares that are still open say "for children of essential workers".

Are these daycares qualifying that or do they just take whoever shows up and pays?

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Most people that dont work for an "essential business" have already lost their jobs and dont need, or cant afford, childcare.