Reopening School: Quantifying Covid Risk

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nai06
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In reply to twk • 11:59a, 7/20/20
AG
twk said:
BBRex said:
You're free to try. I'm guessing you aren't working from home? Because that's what teachers are asking to do. I'm sure other businesses are finding aspects of wfh inconvenient, too.
Working from home doesn't work for teaching as a whole. Businesses will cut loose employees if they aren't getting work done, but that isn't happening in education. KIds learned next to nothing once in person classes stopped. That lack of production will not be allowed to continue, and there is no way to remedy it without returning most kids to the classroom.
(For reference I teach high school grades 9-12)

The online learning that happened during the spring was a disaster. I think a lot of ISDs were scrambling because a complete shutdown was so unprecedented.

But the learning that occurred was a joke. It was frustrating for me on multiple levels. I could give up to two assignments per week and I was allowed one 45 min live session per class, per week. I rarely got more than 5 students per session. When it came to grading, it was pretty much wide open on what I was supposed to accept. It didn't matter if the answers were right or wrong. As far as the gradebook was concerned, it was 100% completion. Also when it came to actually earning credit for the semester, all a student had to do was complete one assignment.So I had a student who had missed all but 4 classes leading up to the shutdown. Out of the 10 assignments, they completed the first one. It was five questions long and basically asked how they were doing and what had they been up to since we left school. They did nothing else the entire semester, didn't attend any live sessions, and didn't communicate with me at all. Because of that one assignment, they got credit for the class.

That type of "learning" doesn't serve anyone.

But it was out of my hands because that was set forth as district policy. I completely understand meeting kids where they are and having some compassion for a difficult situation. But there has to be some balance. For my students that are going virtual this fall, I need to be able to have that freedom back. I need to be able to set high expectations and hold kids accountable as well as offer leeway when its needed. Let me actually do my job. If we are going to play up the same charade from this past spring, don't even bother with opening at all.
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cone
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In reply to nai06 • 12:22p, 7/20/20
AG
we're going to still be coughing up property taxes, regardless
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The_Fox
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In reply to cone • 12:43p, 7/20/20
cone said:
we're going to still be coughing up property taxes, regardless


My kids do not even attend public and never will but I still have to cough up property taxes. That is the real tragedy. School taxes should be based on school attendance and this problem will self correct.
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flogmat
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1:25p, 7/20/20
AG
I've yet to hear a teacher say that they are concerned for the quality of the education they will provide via remote learning. The only concern that I'm hearing is the safety of the teachers. Again, its hard to have sympathy there when a lot of the country has had to go to work as if nothing had happened due to the essential nature of their jobs. Sometimes in life you have to do what you have to do - and in this case, that thing is to go back to school.
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Bonfired
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In reply to flogmat • 1:40p, 7/20/20
AG
flogmat said:
I've yet to hear a teacher say that they are concerned for the quality of the education they will provide via remote learning.


Well, then I'll be the first, because I think online is pennies on the dollar compared to in-person, and am not relishing one bit trying to start the year online. That decision (first 3 weeks virtual) was not mine to make, though, so I'll take the chicken scat I'm handed and try to make the best chicken salad I can.
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P.U.T.U
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1:40p, 7/20/20
AG
Talking to a lot of middle school and elementary aged kids they have all said they learn so much better at school, two local kids have learning disabilities and can't sit at a computer all day long. Kids at that age need to learn in person.

Maybe I have a different point of view since both my wife and I have had to work this entire time. I have been to a lot of other essential businesses and its time for teachers to do pull their weight. They are with the population with the lowest chance of spreading while so many of us are having to put ourselves at a higher risk for everyone to get people their basic needs. You also need to look at the numbers, the lower class needs their help more than anyone, both parents working and they are getting infected at a higher rate than everyone else.
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74OA
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1:55p, 7/20/20
AG
This new study says children can spread the disease just like adults: Infectious

Although still not likely to themselves become seriously ill, the danger is to the adults they come into contact with.

SIAP
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nai06
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In reply to flogmat • 2:01p, 7/20/20
AG
flogmat said:
I've yet to hear a teacher say that they are concerned for the quality of the education they will provide via remote learning. The only concern that I'm hearing is the safety of the teachers. Again, its hard to have sympathy there when a lot of the country has had to go to work as if nothing had happened due to the essential nature of their jobs. Sometimes in life you have to do what you have to do - and in this case, that thing is to go back to school.


I mean three posts above you...
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P.U.T.U
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In reply to 74OA • 2:12p, 7/20/20
AG
74OA said:
This new study says children can spread the disease just like adults: Infectious

Although still not likely to themselves become seriously ill, the danger is to the adults they come into contact with.

SIAP
They need to split the ages up from 0-10, 11-15, and 16-20 so we can look at the different schools. From camps I know there have been several 18-20 but most of the ones I personally know were sick for 2-5 days
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Keegan99
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In reply to 74OA • 2:15p, 7/20/20
AG
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Tabasco
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In reply to nai06 • 2:17p, 7/20/20
AG
nai06 said:
flogmat said:
I've yet to hear a teacher say that they are concerned for the quality of the education they will provide via remote learning. The only concern that I'm hearing is the safety of the teachers. Again, its hard to have sympathy there when a lot of the country has had to go to work as if nothing had happened due to the essential nature of their jobs. Sometimes in life you have to do what you have to do - and in this case, that thing is to go back to school.


I mean three posts above you...
Yeah, and it had been an hour and a half.
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BBRex
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2:21p, 7/20/20
AG
The good news is most educators agree that face-to-face learning is preferable to online education. The bad news is that's why the experience this spring was so bad - nobody was prepared for it. There is technology out there that can be effective. But no one in education wants to talk about it. In fact, I bet quite a few of you have kids who have learned a new skill or hobby just from YouTube, and that's little more than a video tutorial. There has to be ways to leverage that without completely getting rid of the current model.

Although there are many teachers who are ready to go back, administrators have to work out protocols and plans for different scenarios. When does a school close? How many teachers have to get sick in one building? One wing? How will we cover absences? What if substitute teachers aren't available or won't come? What it the teacher was helping car riders and interacted with parents or grandparents? Would parents rather have longer scheduled online learning or risk multiple unscheduled closings? I realize that other businesses may have similar concerns, but most businesses usually deal with adults or children accompanied by adults. If a school suddenly has two or three third-grade teachers with a fever at the front door, then what?
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flogmat
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In reply to nai06 • 2:53p, 7/20/20
AG
nai06 said:
flogmat said:
I've yet to hear a teacher say that they are concerned for the quality of the education they will provide via remote learning. The only concern that I'm hearing is the safety of the teachers. Again, its hard to have sympathy there when a lot of the country has had to go to work as if nothing had happened due to the essential nature of their jobs. Sometimes in life you have to do what you have to do - and in this case, that thing is to go back to school.


I mean three posts above you...
Yeah I should have commented that I was piggy-backing off of your post. Sorry, I'm not a real frequent Texagser.
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BTHOthatguy
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3:35p, 7/20/20
AG
Teachers need to decide if they believe themselves to be essential workers or not. If they are, get your ass to work. If they aren't, go collect unemployment. You know, just like the private sector has been forced to do.
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jenn96
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9:43p, 7/20/20
AG
Something I just thought about - do paras, bus drivers, cafeteria folks etc sign contracts like teachers, or are they more like hourly employees? Meaning, if school is online with no physical students do they still get paid? Asking mainly for Texas; I imagine the union shop states probably have a different arrangement.
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88planoAg
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In reply to jenn96 • 9:53p, 7/20/20
AG
jenn96 said:
Something I just thought about - do paras, bus drivers, cafeteria folks etc sign contracts like teachers, or are they more like hourly employees? Meaning, if school is online with no physical students do they still get paid? Asking mainly for Texas; I imagine the union shop states probably have a different arrangement.
I think they are hourly. Of course liberal FB people, when this was pointed out, said well they should be paid anyway.
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nai06
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In reply to jenn96 • 10:00p, 7/20/20
AG
jenn96 said:
Something I just thought about - do paras, bus drivers, cafeteria folks etc sign contracts like teachers, or are they more like hourly employees? Meaning, if school is online with no physical students do they still get paid? Asking mainly for Texas; I imagine the union shop states probably have a different arrangement.


Most are hourly. There are some paraprofessionals that sign contracts. It's mainly supervisor or director level employees
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Beat40
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In reply to BBRex • 10:29p, 7/20/20
BBRex said:
The good news is most educators agree that face-to-face learning is preferable to online education. The bad news is that's why the experience this spring was so bad - nobody was prepared for it. There is technology out there that can be effective. But no one in education wants to talk about it. In fact, I bet quite a few of you have kids who have learned a new skill or hobby just from YouTube, and that's little more than a video tutorial. There has to be ways to leverage that without completely getting rid of the current model.

Although there are many teachers who are ready to go back, administrators have to work out protocols and plans for different scenarios. When does a school close? How many teachers have to get sick in one building? One wing? How will we cover absences? What if substitute teachers aren't available or won't come? What it the teacher was helping car riders and interacted with parents or grandparents? Would parents rather have longer scheduled online learning or risk multiple unscheduled closings? I realize that other businesses may have similar concerns, but most businesses usually deal with adults or children accompanied by adults. If a school suddenly has two or three third-grade teachers with a fever at the front door, then what?
What have administrators been doing since April 2020? This bolded stuff should have been answered in June or early July at the latest. The plan should have been disseminated down already to teachers and parents. Then people should have been able to chose in school or online at that point. It's been bungled from the beginning.

A lot of business had to figure it out on the fly in March and April. Do you see why people are getting frustrated? People are astounded we're sitting here at this point in the year and the only actionable plan the major districts in Texas have come up with to this point is, "yeah, we'll wait and see what mid September looks like. Might even wait until beginning of October. We need that time anyway to get a plan worked out."
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BBRex
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In reply to Beat40 • 10:55p, 7/20/20
AG
I understand your frustration. The governor and TEA made changes to the start of school as late as last week. I know the plans of at least two big Houston districts changed quite a bit since the beginning of July because of those changes. In fact, I was complaining about those late changes on the Houston board because it basically made all the planning since the end of May obsolete. I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the Houston area districts that have already announced return plans make changes based on new information. It is frustrating for everyone.
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Mattowander
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In reply to Beat40 • 11:00p, 7/20/20
AG
Beat40 said:
BBRex said:
The good news is most educators agree that face-to-face learning is preferable to online education. The bad news is that's why the experience this spring was so bad - nobody was prepared for it. There is technology out there that can be effective. But no one in education wants to talk about it. In fact, I bet quite a few of you have kids who have learned a new skill or hobby just from YouTube, and that's little more than a video tutorial. There has to be ways to leverage that without completely getting rid of the current model.

Although there are many teachers who are ready to go back, administrators have to work out protocols and plans for different scenarios. When does a school close? How many teachers have to get sick in one building? One wing? How will we cover absences? What if substitute teachers aren't available or won't come? What it the teacher was helping car riders and interacted with parents or grandparents? Would parents rather have longer scheduled online learning or risk multiple unscheduled closings? I realize that other businesses may have similar concerns, but most businesses usually deal with adults or children accompanied by adults. If a school suddenly has two or three third-grade teachers with a fever at the front door, then what?
What have administrators been doing since April 2020? This bolded stuff should have been answered in June or early July at the latest. The plan should have been disseminated down already to teachers and parents. Then people should have been able to chose in school or online at that point. It's been bungled from the beginning.

A lot of business had to figure it out on the fly in March and April. Do you see why people are getting frustrated? People are astounded we're sitting here at this point in the year and the only actionable plan the major districts in Texas have come up with to this point is, "yeah, we'll wait and see what mid September looks like. Might even wait until beginning of October. We need that time anyway to get a plan worked out."


As a high school teacher I also wish that school districts should have displayed better leadership during the last few months. But to be fair, many districts have been waiting on more guidance from TEA before making any major decisions. In addition, many of those issues that you put in bold have to be decided at the campus level and the campus admin have been waiting on decisions from district admin who have been waiting on guidance from TEA or the county or the governor, which is subject to change at any time. My campus is just now starting to look at answering these types of questions for my building from we are still dealing with a lot of questions that need to be answered from the district before we can finalize our plans.
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tysker
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6:55a, 7/21/20
AG
From an outsider and from a parent of school aged kids now appreciating how this all works, it certainly seems like ISDs and the TEA have a co-dependent, mutually abusive relationship. Purposefully or not, the general public is unclear about the ISDs and TEA roles, purpose and responsibilities and it seems like the TEA and ISD have just enough power to rule their fiefdom but still can point fingers at each other and blame the other for failures of leadership. And the best feature/bug is that parents, teachers and students get left holding the bag and often fighting amongst themselves.
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BBRex
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In reply to tysker • 7:51a, 7/21/20
AG
If you've followed the recent drama at Houston ISD, you know that's true. At the same time, I think there's been a lack of leadership on this whole pandemic from the top down.
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P.U.T.U
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8:22a, 7/21/20
AG
Harris County health officials suggested no school until at least October. With all of the data coming out and declining cases it is extremely difficult to think this is not a political move.
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LB12MEEN
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In reply to P.U.T.U • 8:29a, 7/21/20
AG
Let's say it was a political move.

One, shows they will do anything if they are willing to use our children as pawns.

Two, what's their overall play on doing this?
Keep instilling fear. Biden's latest campaign commercial for Texas was focused on the rising case numbers.
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Knucklesammich
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8:30a, 7/21/20
I think one area of common ground that ISD's and TEA have is that both focus on education, not public health. They are not medical doctors and rely on both local/county and state public health who in turn look upstream to national level organizations.

I believe that the fragmented response from various levels of leadership be it Federal or State/Local has led to problems ranging from multiple, often contradictory data feed all the way into how to best open schools (physically or virtually).

Without cohesive guidance from public health decision makers, school districts are forced to look to TEA. TEA is tasked with adhering to statute (Federal and State) while making decisions based on public health of which they have little to no mechanism by which they can make decisions let alone the murkiness of whether they are empowered to make those decisions.

I can't speak for the Commissioner or other political appointees but from talking to people at TEA their biggest fear is having funding cut at both Federal and State level due to those statutes and their focus is protect that money pipeline to the districts (again at the line level). Focus isn't on those who can home school or actually do remote learning but on those that don't have access or ability or means to do so.

This is the exact same issue that school districts are having. ISD's are fighing the good fight and we need to understand that there is no one right path that will service even close to most of the school districts. Sure there are teachers worried about their safety and they feel powerless to effect change or have their voices heard.

Long/Short, a ton of what we are dealing with in K12 distills from the same place driving the endless debate about numbers, masks, etc: a lack of clear leadership at the top both at the Federal and State levels. My opinion is that its a political football being punted back and forth by both parties...literally a plague on both their houses.


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tysker
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In reply to Knucklesammich • 8:49a, 7/21/20
AG
Knucklesammich said:
I think one area of common ground that ISD's and TEA have is that both focus on education, not public health. They are not medical doctors and rely on both local/county and state public health who in turn look upstream to national level organizations.


I can't speak for the Commissioner or other political appointees but from talking to people at TEA their biggest fear is having funding cut at both Federal and State level due to those statutes and their focus is protect that money pipeline to the districts (again at the line level). Focus isn't on those who can home school or actually do remote learning but on those that don't have access or ability or means to do so.
What is the focus again, Education or Funding?
Maybe some of the incohesive and fragmented response is due to competing interests within the organizations themselves. edit to add: And with the competing interests, people are able to manipulate data, the lack of internal consistency, and public fear to achieve their preferred ends.
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Mattowander
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In reply to tysker • 9:14a, 7/21/20
AG
tysker said:
Knucklesammich said:
I think one area of common ground that ISD's and TEA have is that both focus on education, not public health. They are not medical doctors and rely on both local/county and state public health who in turn look upstream to national level organizations.


I can't speak for the Commissioner or other political appointees but from talking to people at TEA their biggest fear is having funding cut at both Federal and State level due to those statutes and their focus is protect that money pipeline to the districts (again at the line level). Focus isn't on those who can home school or actually do remote learning but on those that don't have access or ability or means to do so.
What is the focus again, Education or Funding?
Maybe some of the incohesive and fragmented response is due to competing interests within the organizations themselves.

Education is the priority but funding is needed to implement educational policy. In the last legislative session, the state committed a considerable amount of new financial resources to public education and in the current climate of so much financial uncertainty, it makes sense that districts and TEA would be hypersensitive to anything that might affect their funding.

Not to mention that many districts, including my own, have made considerable investments and expenditures over the past few months to benefit our students with the hope (or maybe expectation) that the federal government would help out with the bill. For example, many students in my district do not have consistent access to internet access at home or multiple technology devices in each household for students to do remote learning (if there are multiple children in a household it is not realistic to expect them to all share one desktop computer to do a full day of school work each day ).To help this, my district has spent a lot of money to purchase Wi-fi hotspots for these families to make sure that students have access to internet at home for remote learning.

As a high school teacher, while I am concerned about safety of students and fellow staff members due to COVID, another big concern is the ever-changing requirements coming down from the state and the logistical issues involved. For example, many districts originally planned to do either all online learning or a hybrid situation where students attend school in-person on some days and work from home on others. Then TEA came down and said that in order to receive full funding, schools must offer in-person teaching 5 days a week for students that want it. That causes the districts to scramble to react, and leaves a lot of teachers and campus administrators having to scramble to react in a trickle-down cascade full of uncertainty.

Just to give one more example of a logistical issue: Scheduling. My district told parents that they had until 2 weeks before the start of school to decide whether to do in-person or remote learning. That way parents had the most up-to-date information available to help them make an informed decision. Sounds reasonable, right? The problem is that campuses can't finalize their master schedules (which normally take weeks to work out under the best of circumstances) until we know how many students are doing each. That means that some teachers will be finding out what they are teaching with very little notice and may be asked to teach a completely new subject using a completely new medium (virtual instruction). Or in my case, since I teach a subject that nobody else in my district teaches, I have to teach both online and in-person versions of what I normally teach which means that my work load for the year will increase by a significant amount.

None of this is meant as a complaint by the way; the reality of the situation is what it is and we will rise to meet the challenges. I personally feel up to the challenge and the work of teaching our students and preparing them for future careers is too important to our children and our economy to screw up. This is just to help give a little insight for those who don't work in education and might not know some of these things.
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P.U.T.U
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9:44a, 7/21/20
AG
My biggest issue is we have known since April that the chance of online schooling was a possibility and it seems like no one is ready right now to do it. If my boss told me I have to plan for two possibilities and gives me 3-4 months to prepare and I did not have a good outline I would be fired. I know with standardize test a lot of teachers wait to get that information but the ones I have talked to have done nothing and are now scrambling.

As far as it being political why can 20+ other nations have opened up safely and provided that you can safely have school without outbreaks but several large, well funded cities cannot open schools for months or even through the year? The facts are out there, the numbers show it can be done safely, several countries top doctors said it is safe, our own government said it is vital, but you have a party that ignores this information and does whatever they want. Education is a $700 billion part of our economy and it is vital for both parents and and students that kids need to get back to school.
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LB12MEEN
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In reply to P.U.T.U • 10:04a, 7/21/20
AG
What's the quote

When things don't make sense, politics or money or both are involved.

We just have to be there for kids no matter what happens.
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Knucklesammich
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In reply to tysker • 10:18a, 7/21/20
tysker said:
Knucklesammich said:
I think one area of common ground that ISD's and TEA have is that both focus on education, not public health. They are not medical doctors and rely on both local/county and state public health who in turn look upstream to national level organizations.


I can't speak for the Commissioner or other political appointees but from talking to people at TEA their biggest fear is having funding cut at both Federal and State level due to those statutes and their focus is protect that money pipeline to the districts (again at the line level). Focus isn't on those who can home school or actually do remote learning but on those that don't have access or ability or means to do so.
What is the focus again, Education or Funding?
Maybe some of the incohesive and fragmented response is due to competing interests within the organizations themselves. edit to add: And with the competing interests, people are able to manipulate data, the lack of internal consistency, and public fear to achieve their preferred ends.
Well it costs money to do anything. Its like saying in war should funding or bullets be the focus. Well without the funding to buy the bullets what's the point?

My wife has nearly 20 years at TEA, is in a leadership position at this point that deals directly with dozens of ISD's either directly or through her team. What you are talking about are the political appointees (Commissioner and down to Assoc. Commissioners and maybe some Directors). My wife would tell you that the job of TEA is to assure that funding is applied according to State and Federal statute and to help districts ensure they are meeting the guidelines set by those statutes. Her job isn't to withold funding its to make sure they can get every dollar possible.

She would also tell you that the vast majority of times ISD's fail to meet those guidelines not because of effort or desire to do what is best but because of a lack of resources to meet the scale of the problems they face that vary from district to district. That was before COVID. She would tell you that their goal is to help those districts not loose too much ground in the improvements they have made and to do it in as flexible way as possible.

I guess my point is that ISD's need money and they need to meet the guidelines set forth to get that money and they're going to need more help than ever, those same ISD's are being asked to make local decisions tied to Public Health outcomes when they have little to no expertise or authority to make those decisions. That same issue is being felt at the state level. What has become evident to me as someone watching someone dealing with this at scale is that there needs to be a clear voice at the top and there isn't one...the reason is many I'm sure but the reason is now largely irrelevant.


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Knucklesammich
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In reply to P.U.T.U • 10:22a, 7/21/20
I think the counterargument would say that none of those countries opened up during a nationwide surge in cases.

I think we also lump all grades in as children when the data is starting to show clearly that older kids (Jr High and above can spread the bug).

Those two factors I think require a more nuanced approach to re-opening.
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P.U.T.U
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In reply to Knucklesammich • 10:29a, 7/21/20
AG
Several of them did, a few of them never shut down elementary schools as well. Older kids can spread it which is why none of the ones I have researched kept them open. Plus high school aged kids are able to learn remotely better than the younger kids.
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10:31a, 7/21/20
Knucklesammich
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In reply to [removed post] • 10:39a, 7/21/20
Don't know...it would seem that would be the way to go. Feedback I got in my own house was that school boards were the real issue, not the superintendents in terms of local decisions.

My understanding is there is a lot of pressure being pushed down to the state level from the federal level to mandate schools opening and that the vague guidelines were to give wiggle room to the districts while meeting the letter of the mandate from the Feds and thus ensuring funding continues to flow through.

Remember that the State is about to have a massive budget short fall for this next budget year and losing any fed dollars in education would put many districts in a real tough spot.

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In reply to Knucklesammich • 10:44a, 7/21/20
AG
Knucklesammich said:
I think the counterargument would say that none of those countries opened up during a nationwide surge in cases.

I think we also lump all grades in as children when the data is starting to show clearly that older kids (Jr High and above can spread the bug).

Those two factors I think require a more nuanced approach to re-opening.
number of cases is, generally, a useless metric.

use deaths, hospitalizations, impact on resources.

since more and more cases are asymptomatic, the value of using the number is pretty much worthless.
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