techno-ag said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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Tony Franklins Other Shoe said:

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94chem said:

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I've never paid more than $20K for a car. Couldn't care less about Tesla sales or F150 sales or any new car sales. I'll drive whatever is cheap and runs. You guys do the bickering. I'm laughing all the way to the bank.

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If there were still options for hand crank windows I would take those.

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You know you're one step away from standing in front of your vehicle to hand crank it to start, right?

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Oooo! Username!

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Sorry, I just couldn't help it.

GAC06 said:

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YouBet said:

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GAC06 said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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YouBet said:

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Hybrids were always the natural evolutionary next step from ICE vehicles. Biden and EU leaders manipulated markets to bypass that step in the name of mythological green energy and policy.

As a result, they have directly caused the average price of a new car to hit $50K in this country. Great job, Democrats. Yet again, making life unaffordable for average Americans.

FTR, I have no issues with EVs. They have a use case that makes sense for some. It makes sense for me. However, I would rather have a V8 sports car which will be my next purchase in 2027, if at all possible.

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Yeah, nothing beats the roar and torque that a V8 gives.

Whatever you get, you need to start an "EV" thread as an excuse to brag about your new ride.

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I switched from a V8 (Lexus GS-F) to an EV (Model 3 Performance) and while it doesn't "roar", it beats the ever living crap about of the V8 in torque and every other performance metric.

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Sure, but I don't care to have a quiet, fast golf cart. I want the loud FU engine that is still fast as hell and fun to drive.

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If you like loud and slower, have at it my man

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I plan to! And slower is relative when you are already talking about both cars going sub 5 second 0-60.

My last car was a 470hp V8 that was about 4.5 0-60. I can tell you that switching to 2.9 0-60 doesn't feel relative at all.

Plus the Tesla's performance is more real world. Comparable numbers in an ICE vehicle require setting up for an optimal launch, or on the roll getting into the right gear and RPM. Mine is just a mash of the pedal away from pinning you to your seat

GAC06 said:

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My last car was a 470hp V8 that was about 4.5 0-60. I can tell you that switching to 2.9 0-60 doesn't feel relative at all

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That's fine. I would rather have the soul of a V8 than the dead inside, cheat code of an EV.

I may own an EV at some point, but not right now.

I bought my last car knowing it may be the last V8 I get. I loved the sound and feel for sure. Driving what I do now though I can say I don't miss it at all.

YouBet said:

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GAC06 said:

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My last car was a 470hp V8 that was about 4.5 0-60. I can tell you that switching to 2.9 0-60 doesn't feel relative at all

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That's fine. I would rather have the soul of a V8 than the dead inside, cheat code of an EV.

I may own an EV at some point, but not right now.

---

So keep the V8 and use the Tesla for daily driving. I kept my convertible Porsche. And now I don't put as many miles on it.

Not surprised at China's dominance in this space.

I visited Beijing in 2007, when they were preparing to host the 2008 summer Olympic games. The smog around that city was disgusting and unhealthy. Never a clear day. Always hazy and smokey. They had recently instituted a new rule that cars with even and odd number-ending license plates could only drive on the roads on certain days to alleviate traffic and help with pollution.

Since then, China has taken over things like Lithium and Cobalt mining operations around the world in Asia, S. America, and Africa and their cheap EVs from companies like BYD - made like everything else in China with hacked and stolen IP - are taking over around the globe everywhere but here.

Last time I went to Beijing, it was clear and sunny. Amazing difference in little over a decade.


also not surprised the tax credits and electrification mandates like those in California, as well as fraudulent and wasteful government grants were driving a lot of the growth here. Electrification of a lot of fleets and everyday driver use cases will happen on its own eventually with free market capitalism. It was pushed too soon with government intervention before charging infrastructure and battery capacity technology made the use cases sell themselves to most consumers and companies and the market is rejecting it and slowing the growth for now.

hph6203 said:

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YouBet said:

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hph6203 said:

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sam callahan said:

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All you EV evangelicals have convinced me.

And since it's such a great option - let's let the free market handle it.

Deal?

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Sure. Lift tariffs on lithium batteries and $25,000 300 mile range EVs from China. Yall think that the greatest force in the auto market is in support of EVs. It's the opposite.

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Sure. Let in EVs from the largest communist country on the planet with 200+ car manufacturers all backed by the CCP. If you didn't have the largest government on the planet funding it all, then you wouldn't have $25k 300 mile range EVs in the first place.

It's not free market when you don't factor how the product is sourced.

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Free market would dictate you exploit people making mistakes in manipulating markets. Do I want Chinese vehicles in the U.S.? No. But people claiming let the free market decide are being dishonest, because it's not a free market.

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It's just free market with a qualifier, that being "domestic." We've always wanted to protect American industry from predators dumping inferior cheap stuff here.

oh no said:

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Not surprised at China's dominance in this space.

I visited Beijing in 2007, when they were preparing to host the 2008 summer Olympic games. The smog around that city was disgusting and unhealthy. Never a clear day. Always hazy and smokey. They had recently instituted a new rule that cars with even and odd number-ending license plates could only drive on the roads on certain days to alleviate traffic and help with pollution.

Since then, China has taken over things like Lithium and Cobalt mining operations around the world in Asia, S. America, and Africa and their cheap EVs from companies like BYD - made like everything else in China with hacked and stolen IP - are taking over around the globe everywhere but here.

Last time I went to Beijing, it was clear and sunny. Amazing difference in little over a decade.


also not surprised the tax credits and electrification mandates like those in California, as well as fraudulent and wasteful government grants were driving a lot of the growth here. Electrification of a lot of fleets and everyday driver use cases will happen on its own eventually with free market capitalism. It was pushed too soon with government intervention before charging infrastructure and battery capacity technology made the use cases sell themselves to most consumers and companies and the market is rejecting it and slowing the growth for now.

---

Chi-coms don't care about pollution. They want to control the drivers. Did you post something unkind about Dear Leader? Your EV won't start until you attend re-education camp.

GeorgiAg said:

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YouBet said:

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GAC06 said:

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My last car was a 470hp V8 that was about 4.5 0-60. I can tell you that switching to 2.9 0-60 doesn't feel relative at all

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That's fine. I would rather have the soul of a V8 than the dead inside, cheat code of an EV.

I may own an EV at some point, but not right now.

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So keep the V8 and use the Tesla for daily driving. I kept my convertible Porsche. And now I don't put as many miles on it.

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I don't have either right now, so I'm not buying both and have no reason to. I drive 3-4k miles per year at this point.

I have a pretty fast V6 coupe with low mileage which is really fun to drive and fairly unique at this point, so I've just been hanging onto that. My original plan was to trade it in at 50 and upgrade to a V8 but two years ago the V8 options were limited, and I had so few miles on my car it wasn't worth buying another one.

So, I've punted this out to 2027, and it sounds like we are going to have more ICE options by then now that the car market has swung back to the middle post Biden.

hph6203 said:

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sam callahan said:

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All you EV evangelicals have convinced me.

And since it's such a great option - let's let the free market handle it.

Deal?

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Sure. Lift tariffs on lithium batteries and $25,000 300 mile range EVs from China. Yall think that the greatest force in the auto market is in support of EVs. It's the opposite.

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Except that nothing produced by China is free market.

You mentioned it in passing, but route options are restricted for you. They're not for me. One long trips (2 -3 per year, long meaning 1000+ miles, more 500+) we decide where we go, I don't want my car deciding.

As to the advantage on local trips, refueling time is negligible as in a few minutes a couple times per month. In aggregate you spend about the same time plugging/unplugging.

Also, for anyone who can afford a Tesla, ICE fuel isn't a budget item so the savings for an EV is functionally meaningless.

As long as it's a free market choice, it's all just a two beer discussion.

techno-ag said:

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oh no said:

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Not surprised at China's dominance in this space.

I visited Beijing in 2007, when they were preparing to host the 2008 summer Olympic games. The smog around that city was disgusting and unhealthy. Never a clear day. Always hazy and smokey. They had recently instituted a new rule that cars with even and odd number-ending license plates could only drive on the roads on certain days to alleviate traffic and help with pollution.

Since then, China has taken over things like Lithium and Cobalt mining operations around the world in Asia, S. America, and Africa and their cheap EVs from companies like BYD - made like everything else in China with hacked and stolen IP - are taking over around the globe everywhere but here.

Last time I went to Beijing, it was clear and sunny. Amazing difference in little over a decade.


also not surprised the tax credits and electrification mandates like those in California, as well as fraudulent and wasteful government grants were driving a lot of the growth here. Electrification of a lot of fleets and everyday driver use cases will happen on its own eventually with free market capitalism. It was pushed too soon with government intervention before charging infrastructure and battery capacity technology made the use cases sell themselves to most consumers and companies and the market is rejecting it and slowing the growth for now.

---

Chi-coms don't care about pollution. They want to control the drivers. Did you post something unkind about Dear Leader? Your EV won't start until you attend re-education camp.

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chi-coms "care" about dominating the world and that does include keeping control over their population. they hack/steal and copy everything and make it cheaper. they made europe and north america fully dependent on their supply chains of cheap stuff. they own the biggest hollywood and media production around the world. they own politicians around the world. they control the most of the most valuable feedstock and source materials for the biggest market drivers in the future - like lithium and cobalt. they're trying to own things like capacity for artificial intelligence, crypto currency mining, robotics, and battery processing and production.

Aust Ag said:

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BigRobSA said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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I use self-driving like 80% of the time.

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I self-drive 100% of the time.

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My wife just got one, and she's 100% as well. She had a minor eye injury earlier in the year, which caused problems driving at night. Not a problem any more. She misses her BMW, but likes this Telsa better.

I want her to talk her 88 year old Mom into buying one. That's where they REALLY make sense.

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You missed it

AustinAg2K said:

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Farmer_J said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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95% + of the time, I'm just going to/from work or maybe grabbing lunch. 22 miles each way. The Tesla makes perfect sense for that. Basically, a really really nice golf cart.

I understand people have range anxiety and the hybrid is the solution for that. But range anxiety is really a non-issue unless you drive very long distances all the time.

One of the huge perks for an EV is getting rid of the inferior ICE technology. Gears, oil, coolant, maintenance, 100s of more parts to maintain. I'm not going for a hybrid.

I will always have an ICE/diesel truck for power/towing capacity. Family has a vacation house on the Georgia coast and have to tow jet skis and put in a large boat.

I don't think I will ever buy another ICE vehicle for my daily driver. I kept my Porsche convertible for fun every now and then, but I'm going to put all my daily driver miles on the Tesla.

And the self driving full service driving (oops) is absolutely amazing. Elon Musk drives and I listen to Bloomberg and drink coffee.

It's not a car, it's a robot. Every few weeks, the computer updates and I get more features.

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I can't wait for full service driving taxis to be fully adopted. Travel anywhere and everywhere catching autonomous taxis with an app.

Gamechanger

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I've never understood this. Why do I care if it's an autonomous taxi, or if there is a driver? Either way it's a taxi.

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Because every Uber driver I've had in the last few years has been from some third world country. I want to get in a car and not gag on air fresheners, not have to make small talk and not have to tip.

cecil77 said:

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You mentioned it in passing, but route options are restricted for you. They're not for me. One long trips (2 -3 per year, long meaning 1000+ miles, more 500+) we decide where we go, I don't want my car deciding.

As to the advantage on local trips, refueling time is negligible as in a few minutes a couple times per month. In aggregate you spend about the same time plugging/unplugging.

Also, for anyone who can afford a Tesla, ICE fuel isn't a budget item so the savings for an EV is functionally meaningless.

As long as it's a free market choice, it's all just a two beer discussion.

---

Yeah a 1000 mile trip in a Tesla is not recommended. And I have to stay on the interstate to get Superchargers. There is another app that lists all the chargers, but those other EV chargers are not as fast as the Tesla Superchargers. Definitely wouldn't want to rely on that.

I drove down to the family house on the very rural Georgia coast from Atlanta this fall. Stopped once about halfway for a charge - about 15 minutes. When I made the right turn heading south down the coast on I-95 it started getting antsy because I was low on charge and there were no superchargers "in range" (it did not know I had a 240 plug at the destination vacation house my sister installed for her camper.)

Minor annoyance of the car freaking out, but yes Tesla is not the best option for long trips. In the summer I take my Nissan Titan Diesel because I tow jet skis and we have a large boat in a garage there that I may have to put in. I didn't buy the Tesla for long trips, but I took it on that trip because i wanted to see how it operates on a long trip like that. And it was fall, so no boats/skis or truck needed.

As far as full service driving, it can be a little unnerving when traffic is heavy. I can't really relax having a computer drive in heavy traffic going 80 mph. But when I got past Macon, Georgia, I-16 heading to Savannah is not crowded and the full service driving is awesome. I have a phone mount that I put on my dash just under the steering wheel, so I can watch sports or a movie while the car drives. (There is an internal camera that watches your eyes, so this phone mount tricks it to think you are looking at the road. You can shift your eyes up really quickly if you need to, but this stretch of road is straight with no traffic.)

It's a commuter car.

techno-ag said:

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oh no said:

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Not surprised at China's dominance in this space.

I visited Beijing in 2007, when they were preparing to host the 2008 summer Olympic games. The smog around that city was disgusting and unhealthy. Never a clear day. Always hazy and smokey. They had recently instituted a new rule that cars with even and odd number-ending license plates could only drive on the roads on certain days to alleviate traffic and help with pollution.

Since then, China has taken over things like Lithium and Cobalt mining operations around the world in Asia, S. America, and Africa and their cheap EVs from companies like BYD - made like everything else in China with hacked and stolen IP - are taking over around the globe everywhere but here.

Last time I went to Beijing, it was clear and sunny. Amazing difference in little over a decade.


also not surprised the tax credits and electrification mandates like those in California, as well as fraudulent and wasteful government grants were driving a lot of the growth here. Electrification of a lot of fleets and everyday driver use cases will happen on its own eventually with free market capitalism. It was pushed too soon with government intervention before charging infrastructure and battery capacity technology made the use cases sell themselves to most consumers and companies and the market is rejecting it and slowing the growth for now.

---

Chi-coms don't care about pollution. They want to control the drivers. Did you post something unkind about Dear Leader? Your EV won't start until you attend re-education camp.

---

First, let's see proof of your claim. Second, if this is there push, they can do that with any powertrain via existing connections and/or mandating all cars have a connection allowing them to cut off a car.

techno-ag said:

---

oh no said:

---

Not surprised at China's dominance in this space.

I visited Beijing in 2007, when they were preparing to host the 2008 summer Olympic games. The smog around that city was disgusting and unhealthy. Never a clear day. Always hazy and smokey. They had recently instituted a new rule that cars with even and odd number-ending license plates could only drive on the roads on certain days to alleviate traffic and help with pollution.

Since then, China has taken over things like Lithium and Cobalt mining operations around the world in Asia, S. America, and Africa and their cheap EVs from companies like BYD - made like everything else in China with hacked and stolen IP - are taking over around the globe everywhere but here.

Last time I went to Beijing, it was clear and sunny. Amazing difference in little over a decade.


also not surprised the tax credits and electrification mandates like those in California, as well as fraudulent and wasteful government grants were driving a lot of the growth here. Electrification of a lot of fleets and everyday driver use cases will happen on its own eventually with free market capitalism. It was pushed too soon with government intervention before charging infrastructure and battery capacity technology made the use cases sell themselves to most consumers and companies and the market is rejecting it and slowing the growth for now.

---

Chi-coms don't care about pollution. They want to control the drivers. Did you post something unkind about Dear Leader? Your EV won't start until you attend re-education camp.

---

China is installing more solar, wind, and nuclear than the rest of the world combined. In the first half of 2025 they installed 2x the solar of the rest of the world combined. By the time they reach per capita energy consumption equivalent to the U.S. they will have less emissive energy per kWh.

Just aggressive levels of not paying attention.

China has grown by over 500 TWh in the past 12 months.

Coal is down 66 TWh. https://t.co/DzANsN4l7B pic.twitter.com/g3BQU4UiBg

— Jesse Peltan (@JessePeltan) December 20, 2025

China is building more nuclear than the rest of the world combined,

and still…

all those reactors will generate less electricity than the solar China installed in the *first half* of this year. https://t.co/wrG4F7pcWR pic.twitter.com/dK8MGpX2gf

— Jesse Peltan (@JessePeltan) December 13, 2025

AustinAg2K said:

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Ag with kids said:

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OKCAg2002 said:

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Generally, I agree. But let's not pretend the government doens't subsidize a ton of things. More free market is the answer, but singling out the EV industry as the only automaker to receive a government handout is false.

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What exactly are these government handouts that the other automakers are receiving?

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How quickly you forget the auto-bailouts of the late 2000's, cash for clunkers, etc.

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Both of those were stupid and wrong (ESPECIALLY the C4C). The C4C was basically a masterclass example of Bastiat's Broken Window Fallacy...

But, those are significantly different that having subsidies to encourage purchasing of their vehicles.

hph6203 said:

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sam callahan said:

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All you EV evangelicals have convinced me.

And since it's such a great option - let's let the free market handle it.

Deal?

---

Sure. Lift tariffs on lithium batteries and $25,000 300 mile range EVs from China. Yall think that the greatest force in the auto market is in support of EVs. It's the opposite.

---

Wait...

He said "let the FREE MARKET handle it" and you brought CHINA into the discussion???

Quote:

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Second, if this is there push, they can do that with any powertrain via existing connections and/or mandating all cars have a connection allowing them to cut off a car.

---

That's only possible with peteoleum fueled vehicles that are relatively new and have constant wireless connection. The mandate fior all electric clears the field of all pre-2015 vehicles that don't have network connections.
Charging electric vehicles almost implicitly includes identification of the vehicle being charged. A gas or diesel nozzle doesn't authenticate the vehicle or driver's identity. Even if it did, transferring and moving petroleum from one tank to a storage container is a lot simpler than transferring electricity from battery to battery.

They can claim that EVs are cleaner or use whatever excuse they come up with but for totalitarian the ultimate point of government is to limit personal freedom and consolidate power. Dependence on a grid that can refuse access to anyone for any reason advances the goal of limiting freedom and consolidating power with the government. The CCP IS all totalitarian all the time.

Kansas Kid said:

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techno-ag said:

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oh no said:

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Not surprised at China's dominance in this space.

I visited Beijing in 2007, when they were preparing to host the 2008 summer Olympic games. The smog around that city was disgusting and unhealthy. Never a clear day. Always hazy and smokey. They had recently instituted a new rule that cars with even and odd number-ending license plates could only drive on the roads on certain days to alleviate traffic and help with pollution.

Since then, China has taken over things like Lithium and Cobalt mining operations around the world in Asia, S. America, and Africa and their cheap EVs from companies like BYD - made like everything else in China with hacked and stolen IP - are taking over around the globe everywhere but here.

Last time I went to Beijing, it was clear and sunny. Amazing difference in little over a decade.


also not surprised the tax credits and electrification mandates like those in California, as well as fraudulent and wasteful government grants were driving a lot of the growth here. Electrification of a lot of fleets and everyday driver use cases will happen on its own eventually with free market capitalism. It was pushed too soon with government intervention before charging infrastructure and battery capacity technology made the use cases sell themselves to most consumers and companies and the market is rejecting it and slowing the growth for now.

---

Chi-coms don't care about pollution. They want to control the drivers. Did you post something unkind about Dear Leader? Your EV won't start until you attend re-education camp.

---

First, let's see proof of your claim. Second, if this is there push, they can do that with any powertrain via existing connections and/or mandating all cars have a connection allowing them to cut off a car.

---

You doubt there's a social credit system in China? I'm not going to do your homework I don't really care if you don't believe me. Google it yourself.

My claim they could use it to disable an EV is logical. Tesla is usually the most recalled car, top of the lists. But their recalls are mostly over the air updates. It's easy to see the possibility for a remote kill switch.

They call me … techno-ag.

Quote:

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Both of those were stupid and wrong (ESPECIALLY the C4C). The C4C was basically a masterclass example of Bastiat's Broken Window Fallacy...

But, those are significantly different that having subsidies to encourage purchasing of their vehicles.

---

Not really, just semantics.

hph6203 said:

---

techno-ag said:

---

oh no said:

---

Not surprised at China's dominance in this space.

I visited Beijing in 2007, when they were preparing to host the 2008 summer Olympic games. The smog around that city was disgusting and unhealthy. Never a clear day. Always hazy and smokey. They had recently instituted a new rule that cars with even and odd number-ending license plates could only drive on the roads on certain days to alleviate traffic and help with pollution.

Since then, China has taken over things like Lithium and Cobalt mining operations around the world in Asia, S. America, and Africa and their cheap EVs from companies like BYD - made like everything else in China with hacked and stolen IP - are taking over around the globe everywhere but here.

Last time I went to Beijing, it was clear and sunny. Amazing difference in little over a decade.


also not surprised the tax credits and electrification mandates like those in California, as well as fraudulent and wasteful government grants were driving a lot of the growth here. Electrification of a lot of fleets and everyday driver use cases will happen on its own eventually with free market capitalism. It was pushed too soon with government intervention before charging infrastructure and battery capacity technology made the use cases sell themselves to most consumers and companies and the market is rejecting it and slowing the growth for now.

---

Chi-coms don't care about pollution. They want to control the drivers. Did you post something unkind about Dear Leader? Your EV won't start until you attend re-education camp.

---

China is installing more solar, wind, and nuclear than the rest of the world combined. In the first half of 2025 they installed 2x the solar of the rest of the world combined. By the time they reach per capita energy consumption equivalent to the U.S. they will have less emissive energy per kWh.

Just aggressive levels of not paying attention.

China has grown by over 500 TWh in the past 12 months.

Coal is down 66 TWh. https://t.co/DzANsN4l7B pic.twitter.com/g3BQU4UiBg

— Jesse Peltan (@JessePeltan) December 20, 2025

China is building more nuclear than the rest of the world combined,

and still…

all those reactors will generate less electricity than the solar China installed in the *first half* of this year. https://t.co/wrG4F7pcWR pic.twitter.com/dK8MGpX2gf

— Jesse Peltan (@JessePeltan) December 13, 2025

---

It's cute you think China is worried about pollution.

Are you a communist apologist? Just curious. Trust me when I tell you, they don't care about pollution.

Quote:

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It's cute you think China is worried about pollution.

---

Did he say that?

GAC06 said:

---

Quote:

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It's cute you think China is worried about pollution.

---

Did he say that?

---

Sure looks like it. How did you get that he did not convey that?

Looked to me like he said China is installing more solar, wind, and nuclear power generation than the rest of the world combined.

Ulysses90 said:

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Quote:

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Second, if this is there push, they can do that with any powertrain via existing connections and/or mandating all cars have a connection allowing them to cut off a car.

---

That's only possible with peteoleum fueled vehicles that are relatively new and have constant wireless connection. The mandate fior all electric clears the field of all pre-2015 vehicles that don't have network connections.
Charging electric vehicles almost implicitly includes identification of the vehicle being charged. A gas or diesel nozzle doesn't authenticate the vehicle or driver's identity. Even if it did, transferring and moving petroleum from one tank to a storage container is a lot simpler than transferring electricity from battery to battery.

They can claim that EVs are cleaner or use whatever excuse they come up with but for totalitarian the ultimate point of government is to limit personal freedom and consolidate power. Dependence on a grid that can refuse access to anyone for any reason advances the goal of limiting freedom and consolidating power with the government. The CCP IS all totalitarian all the time.

---

Do you think a government can't control gasoline and diesel distribution? Do you have your own well and refinery?

hph6203 said:

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techno-ag said:

---

oh no said:

---

Not surprised at China's dominance in this space.

I visited Beijing in 2007, when they were preparing to host the 2008 summer Olympic games. The smog around that city was disgusting and unhealthy. Never a clear day. Always hazy and smokey. They had recently instituted a new rule that cars with even and odd number-ending license plates could only drive on the roads on certain days to alleviate traffic and help with pollution.

Since then, China has taken over things like Lithium and Cobalt mining operations around the world in Asia, S. America, and Africa and their cheap EVs from companies like BYD - made like everything else in China with hacked and stolen IP - are taking over around the globe everywhere but here.

Last time I went to Beijing, it was clear and sunny. Amazing difference in little over a decade.


also not surprised the tax credits and electrification mandates like those in California, as well as fraudulent and wasteful government grants were driving a lot of the growth here. Electrification of a lot of fleets and everyday driver use cases will happen on its own eventually with free market capitalism. It was pushed too soon with government intervention before charging infrastructure and battery capacity technology made the use cases sell themselves to most consumers and companies and the market is rejecting it and slowing the growth for now.

---

Chi-coms don't care about pollution. They want to control the drivers. Did you post something unkind about Dear Leader? Your EV won't start until you attend re-education camp.

---

China is installing more solar, wind, and nuclear than the rest of the world combined. In the first half of 2025 they installed 2x the solar of the rest of the world combined. By the time they reach per capita energy consumption equivalent to the U.S. they will have less emissive energy per kWh.

Just aggressive levels of not paying attention.

China has grown by over 500 TWh in the past 12 months.

Coal is down 66 TWh. https://t.co/DzANsN4l7B pic.twitter.com/g3BQU4UiBg

— Jesse Peltan (@JessePeltan) December 20, 2025

China is building more nuclear than the rest of the world combined,

and still…

all those reactors will generate less electricity than the solar China installed in the *first half* of this year. https://t.co/wrG4F7pcWR pic.twitter.com/dK8MGpX2gf

— Jesse Peltan (@JessePeltan) December 13, 2025

---

Yep. Ain't it great when the keyboard warriors who have never been to China, flown across China, taken a train in China, had a driver in China, visited family in China, walked through a Chinese city...tell us how China works, how it looks, etc.? And if you say anything to correct their ignorance, you're somehow a chicom apologist.

Virtually all new cars in China have internet connections so again, why do they need to mandate EVs if they want to lock people out of their cars? Also, with ICE, you have to go to a central point to get your fuel which is fairly easy for the Chinese to track you and deprive you of getting additional fuel so even the older cars can be effectively locked up.

Finally, you do realize EVs can run without an internet connection and do all the time. I mention this because I am sure you will otherwise say you can disable the internet and drive a new ICE which I agree with but it is also true of EVs.

AustinAg2K said:

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Farmer_J said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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95% + of the time, I'm just going to/from work or maybe grabbing lunch. 22 miles each way. The Tesla makes perfect sense for that. Basically, a really really nice golf cart.

I understand people have range anxiety and the hybrid is the solution for that. But range anxiety is really a non-issue unless you drive very long distances all the time.

One of the huge perks for an EV is getting rid of the inferior ICE technology. Gears, oil, coolant, maintenance, 100s of more parts to maintain. I'm not going for a hybrid.

I will always have an ICE/diesel truck for power/towing capacity. Family has a vacation house on the Georgia coast and have to tow jet skis and put in a large boat.

I don't think I will ever buy another ICE vehicle for my daily driver. I kept my Porsche convertible for fun every now and then, but I'm going to put all my daily driver miles on the Tesla.

And the self driving full service driving (oops) is absolutely amazing. Elon Musk drives and I listen to Bloomberg and drink coffee.

It's not a car, it's a robot. Every few weeks, the computer updates and I get more features.

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I can't wait for full service driving taxis to be fully adopted. Travel anywhere and everywhere catching autonomous taxis with an app.

Gamechanger

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I've never understood this. Why do I care if it's an autonomous taxi, or if there is a driver? Either way it's a taxi.

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You don't but shareholders do... and that is one of the key reasons why even with EV sales slowing Tesla is up this year.

techno-ag said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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techno-ag said:

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oh no said:

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Not surprised at China's dominance in this space.

I visited Beijing in 2007, when they were preparing to host the 2008 summer Olympic games. The smog around that city was disgusting and unhealthy. Never a clear day. Always hazy and smokey. They had recently instituted a new rule that cars with even and odd number-ending license plates could only drive on the roads on certain days to alleviate traffic and help with pollution.

Since then, China has taken over things like Lithium and Cobalt mining operations around the world in Asia, S. America, and Africa and their cheap EVs from companies like BYD - made like everything else in China with hacked and stolen IP - are taking over around the globe everywhere but here.

Last time I went to Beijing, it was clear and sunny. Amazing difference in little over a decade.


also not surprised the tax credits and electrification mandates like those in California, as well as fraudulent and wasteful government grants were driving a lot of the growth here. Electrification of a lot of fleets and everyday driver use cases will happen on its own eventually with free market capitalism. It was pushed too soon with government intervention before charging infrastructure and battery capacity technology made the use cases sell themselves to most consumers and companies and the market is rejecting it and slowing the growth for now.

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Chi-coms don't care about pollution. They want to control the drivers. Did you post something unkind about Dear Leader? Your EV won't start until you attend re-education camp.

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First, let's see proof of your claim. Second, if this is there push, they can do that with any powertrain via existing connections and/or mandating all cars have a connection allowing them to cut off a car.

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You doubt there's a social credit system in China? I'm not going to do your homework I don't really care if you don't believe me. Google it yourself.

My claim they could use it to disable an EV is logical. Tesla is usually the most recalled car, top of the lists. But their recalls are mostly over the air updates. It's easy to see the possibility for a remote kill switch.

They call me … techno-ag.

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Once again you deflect when you can't prove your point. See my post above, you don't need internet to drive an EV. You do to get an update but you know those recall/updates aren't really issues that would keep people from driving the car if they are done. (Ok, you would stop driving if the font size is too small for the government regulators)

As for credit scores, they absolutely existing in China. If they want to stop someone from traveling, they have numerous ways to stop someone for doing it given the extensive surveillance they have of their people. EVs are a straw dog people like you throw out to get an emotional response.

There are valid reasons to oppose EVs but the remote bricking of them isn't one of them.

94chem said:

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hph6203 said:

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techno-ag said:

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oh no said:

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Not surprised at China's dominance in this space.

I visited Beijing in 2007, when they were preparing to host the 2008 summer Olympic games. The smog around that city was disgusting and unhealthy. Never a clear day. Always hazy and smokey. They had recently instituted a new rule that cars with even and odd number-ending license plates could only drive on the roads on certain days to alleviate traffic and help with pollution.

Since then, China has taken over things like Lithium and Cobalt mining operations around the world in Asia, S. America, and Africa and their cheap EVs from companies like BYD - made like everything else in China with hacked and stolen IP - are taking over around the globe everywhere but here.

Last time I went to Beijing, it was clear and sunny. Amazing difference in little over a decade.


also not surprised the tax credits and electrification mandates like those in California, as well as fraudulent and wasteful government grants were driving a lot of the growth here. Electrification of a lot of fleets and everyday driver use cases will happen on its own eventually with free market capitalism. It was pushed too soon with government intervention before charging infrastructure and battery capacity technology made the use cases sell themselves to most consumers and companies and the market is rejecting it and slowing the growth for now.

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Chi-coms don't care about pollution. They want to control the drivers. Did you post something unkind about Dear Leader? Your EV won't start until you attend re-education camp.

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China is installing more solar, wind, and nuclear than the rest of the world combined. In the first half of 2025 they installed 2x the solar of the rest of the world combined. By the time they reach per capita energy consumption equivalent to the U.S. they will have less emissive energy per kWh.

Just aggressive levels of not paying attention.

China has grown by over 500 TWh in the past 12 months.

Coal is down 66 TWh. https://t.co/DzANsN4l7B pic.twitter.com/g3BQU4UiBg

— Jesse Peltan (@JessePeltan) December 20, 2025

China is building more nuclear than the rest of the world combined,

and still…

all those reactors will generate less electricity than the solar China installed in the *first half* of this year. https://t.co/wrG4F7pcWR pic.twitter.com/dK8MGpX2gf

— Jesse Peltan (@JessePeltan) December 13, 2025

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Yep. Ain't it great when the keyboard warriors who have never been to China, flown across China, taken a train in China, had a driver in China, visited family in China, walked through a Chinese city...tell us how China works, how it looks, etc.? And if you say anything to correct their ignorance, you're somehow a chicom apologist.

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I guess I'm confused about the point you all are trying to make, or if it's just lame attempt at a "gotcha."

Let me see if I understand your point. You are saying you have traveled to China and that there is little to no pollution, that it's all green energy over there, etc? Is that how we plebes are "ignorant?" (Your words.)

Kansas Kid said:

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techno-ag said:

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Kansas Kid said:

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techno-ag said:

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oh no said:

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Not surprised at China's dominance in this space.

I visited Beijing in 2007, when they were preparing to host the 2008 summer Olympic games. The smog around that city was disgusting and unhealthy. Never a clear day. Always hazy and smokey. They had recently instituted a new rule that cars with even and odd number-ending license plates could only drive on the roads on certain days to alleviate traffic and help with pollution.

Since then, China has taken over things like Lithium and Cobalt mining operations around the world in Asia, S. America, and Africa and their cheap EVs from companies like BYD - made like everything else in China with hacked and stolen IP - are taking over around the globe everywhere but here.

Last time I went to Beijing, it was clear and sunny. Amazing difference in little over a decade.


also not surprised the tax credits and electrification mandates like those in California, as well as fraudulent and wasteful government grants were driving a lot of the growth here. Electrification of a lot of fleets and everyday driver use cases will happen on its own eventually with free market capitalism. It was pushed too soon with government intervention before charging infrastructure and battery capacity technology made the use cases sell themselves to most consumers and companies and the market is rejecting it and slowing the growth for now.

---

Chi-coms don't care about pollution. They want to control the drivers. Did you post something unkind about Dear Leader? Your EV won't start until you attend re-education camp.

---

First, let's see proof of your claim. Second, if this is there push, they can do that with any powertrain via existing connections and/or mandating all cars have a connection allowing them to cut off a car.

---

You doubt there's a social credit system in China? I'm not going to do your homework I don't really care if you don't believe me. Google it yourself.

My claim they could use it to disable an EV is logical. Tesla is usually the most recalled car, top of the lists. But their recalls are mostly over the air updates. It's easy to see the possibility for a remote kill switch.

They call me … techno-ag.

---

Once again you deflect when you can't prove your point. See my post above, you don't need internet to drive an EV. You do to get an update but you know those recall/updates aren't really issues that would keep people from driving the car if they are done. (Ok, you would stop driving if the font size is too small for the government regulators)

As for credit scores, they absolutely existing in China. If they want to stop someone from traveling, they have numerous ways to stop someone for doing it given the extensive surveillance they have of their people. EVs are a straw dog people like you throw out to get an emotional response.

There are valid reasons to oppose EVs but the remote bricking of them isn't one of them.

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Alas, there we must disagree. Citizen control via EVs is easier than with ICE. Remote bricking is indeed possible as are other software limitations such as speed and range controls and perhaps other things we haven't thought of yet.

Look I get it you're an EVangelist. But it's ok to discuss how these technologies can be used against us. ALL technologies are double-edged, even the ones you are passionately in love with.

cecil77 said:

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You mentioned it in passing, but route options are restricted for you. They're not for me. One long trips (2 -3 per year, long meaning 1000+ miles, more 500+) we decide where we go, I don't want my car deciding.

As to the advantage on local trips, refueling time is negligible as in a few minutes a couple times per month. In aggregate you spend about the same time plugging/unplugging.

Also, for anyone who can afford a Tesla, ICE fuel isn't a budget item so the savings for an EV is functionally meaningless.

As long as it's a free market choice, it's all just a two beer discussion.

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"Afford a Tesla"?

They are about $45k well equipped. That's less than many comparable ICE cars on market.

I swear some of you still think every Tesla is a $100k Model S from 5 years ago.

Just looked it up. The average price for new vehicle in 2025 is $50k.