Well in that context, I think you can add a lot of grownups to that group. When my club is up by 3 goals against bottom-feeders on a Saturday morning, I stop watching and start doing the litany of chores I need to get done.

Verne Lundquist said:

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Legal Custodian said:

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Perez also said that young people don't care about soccer because the games are too long and that's something they need to look into. A flipping hour and 45 minutes sporting even tis too long?? It's the shortest sport in existence right now. Honestly, I can't think of another major sport that is longer. They will kill soccer.

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56:40
I think that's a misinterpretation of what he meant since they speak weird Spanish in Spain.

I took it to mean kids aren't interested in watching big teams vs little teams when the score is 4-0 in the 60th minute. I think he meant not there is no interest in those type of games in the midweek so they cut (cortar) them out of the schedule.

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Lol we've seen plenty of blowouts in the later stages of the Champions League so he's still wrong.

I don't want it. But this is going to happen. FIFA and uefa will get a cut and cave.

What people don't seem to realize is this isn't about English fans or Italian fans or Spanish fans.

This is about Nigerians, Chinese, Indians, Algerians, Argentinians, Brazilians. The worldwide eyeballs are going to watch this now and in the future. The ratings will be gigantic. The money will be gigantic.

The "founding clubs" want to control their destiny and the coffers.

How much of this (at least from the English clubs' perspective) is the emergence of a more competitive table in recent years? First off the expansion of the big 4 to the big 6 and then Leicester and Wolves (and others making top 4 a lot more competitive?

Same. The Premier League should combine with the SPL to form a British Premier League. Get Rangers and Celtic in there with the big English clubs like Everton, Aston Villa, Leeds, West Ham, Newcastle. Would be a fantastic setup with historic clubs and great atmospheres.

Dre_00 said:

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I've reached the point where I've realized that I'll enjoy the sport regardless of what happens. I hope it doesn't happen but it probably will. And when it does, I will pay absolutely no attention, time or money to the SL. Plenty of reasons to watch a bigsixless EPL in my opinion. And as a viewer of CONCACAF and MLS, I'm intimately familiar with not watching the best in the world and completely OK with that.

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For those of us without an EPL, La Liga or Serie A team/loyalty/connection, SL wont change much. I just watch the soccer that is available when I can. That being said, I will choose a match with an American playing over one without regardless of the profile of the clubs.

RebAg13 said:

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Want a super league only with relegation and no guaranteed spots.

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I think every fan would be fine with that.

The issue with that setup is that it doesn't bring the valuation bump that these top clubs are looking for.

There is a very extensive discussion about this on an Arsenal message board I visit. Here are a few quotes from that board to add a little perspective RE the reactions...

Quote:

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The entire Sky satellite network in the UK was built on exclusive sports coverage which they paid a fortune to get.

Without the cornerstone of the EPL, Sky is a crap proposition. It's movies are crap compared to streaming offerings like Netflix, Disney etc

So like you say, if the EPL becomes a second rate bundle compared to the ESL, Sky are in huge trouble,

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Anyone remember the cluster that has become MSM in the US and the level of bias they show? Well Sky is the primary network throwing a fit about the ESL deal and they have a huge vested interest in seeing it fail.

Quote:

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the thing is - and, again, i'm not defending the ESL people - their proposal is not to separate from the EPL (and other domestic leagues) but from UEFA/ECL and their CL/EC.

now, if the argument was to be made - as a friend of mine did - that a chonky bit of value in the league comes from those CL places and, were the CL to die a slow death, then those league places become less valued by default then, cool, that is at least an argument. but the current rhetoric and vitriol that ESL is directly taking aim at any of the domestic league feels inaccurate and misleading.

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Quote:

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Quote:

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seeing the initial reaction, i thought the ESL was those clubs abandoning their domestic league. i had to re-read again to figure out that they were abandoning UEFA and CL/EC.

not arguing that this is not a money play or that those ownership groups are not bad but the rhetoric on how this is tearing apart english football confuses me.

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The Premier League doesn't care about English football and sees the Champions League as a rival. The Super League including its biggest clubs is a smack in the face at CL and PL. The PL especially don't want to lose its financial supremacy.

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As I see it, the ESL teams are going to have to carry a bigger squad for the mid week games, assuming they are allowed to remain in their domestic leagues (I don't see the domestics following through with banning their big money attractions). They will still have to follow the league rules (HG count for EPL) for registration and in all likelihood they end up with some players that are registered for domestic but not ESL and visa versa. And while I see the argument that the "EPL big 6" may care less about the league and play lesser players, the reality is that those teams are still going to want to win trophies. The difference is that you may see more youth and/or domestic/HG talent getting a chance to play for those clubs then you would before.

Furlock Bones said:

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What people don't seem to realize is this isn't about English fans or Italian fans or Spanish fans.

This is about Nigerians, Chinese, Indians, Algerians, Argentinians, Brazilians. The worldwide eyeballs are going to watch this now and in the future. The ratings will be gigantic. The money will be gigantic.

The "founding clubs" want to control their destiny and the coffers.

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The ratings will be gigantic, but they'll crack pretty soon. Big games get big ratings because they're uncommon. People will get tired of watching Madrid-Barca every single week. It dilutes the product. And then you'll have teams who are usually consistent winners, slowly devolve into being also rans in the super league. Bandwagon fans don't jump on the losers wagon, but they do jump off.

RebAg13 said:

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Want a super league only with relegation and no guaranteed spots.

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I do wonder about the relegation rumor after 5 years. I really don't see why they would risk getting kicked out of a such a lucrative league.

I think there has been a push in recent years to get Celtic and Rangers added to the Premier League. The SPL is just too small for those 2 massive clubs. It is a 2 team race every year, except when Rangers went bankrupt.

ChipFTAC01 said:

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How much of this (at least from the English clubs' perspective) is the emergence of a more competitive table in recent years? First off the expansion of the big 4 to the big 6 and then Leicester and Wolves (and others making top 4 a lot more competitive?

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I'm sure it has crossed their minds that "hey, no more struggling to make the Champions League."

Same with the two Milan teams which have not had many remarkable seasons lately.

Here's the big driver in all likelihood. All these teams are basically in debt up to their eyeballs because of terrible management and this is a possible lifeline.

KCup17 said:

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I think there has been a push in recent years to get Celtic and Rangers added to the Premier League. The SPL is just too small for those 2 massive clubs. It is a 2 team race every year, except when Rangers went bankrupt.

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That's been the problem across the sport world-wide and why the super league is even a thing.

https://theathletic.com/2529349/2021/04/19/europes-leagues-are-broken-a-super-league-might-be-the-only-solution/

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How many times on the bounce do Bayern have to win the title before we realise the Bundesliga once heralded as the model for others to follow, let's not forget is fundamentally no longer a competitive division? Ten? Fifteen? Twenty? When do you get bored? This isn't individual genius. This isn't Rafael Nadal winning the French Open 13 years out of 16 because he's so brilliant. It is structural inequality manifesting itself on the pitch.

European football leagues desperately require more competitive balance and if greater redistribution of revenue is unlikely, the nuclear option may be the only choice.

It's difficult to find anyone genuinely enthusiastic about a European Super League but some of the rhetoric, particularly from supporters of clubs who enjoy drastic advantages over teams in the same division, feels misplaced considering European football's current state.

Oppose a Super League in whatever way you can but let's avoid glorification of the deeply uncompetitive status quo, which would have horrified us had we been introduced to it overnight.

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KCup17 said:

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I think there has been a push in recent years to get Celtic and Rangers added to the Premier League. The SPL is just too small for those 2 massive clubs. It is a 2 team race every year, except when Rangers went bankrupt.

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It would be great to have them in the Premier League. Imagine Celtic fans descending on a match against West Ham in London or Newcastle travelling north to play Rangers at Ibrox.

Even though I'm a Rangers/Chelsea fan, Celtic has to have more untapped fan potential in America (with the Irish connection) than any other club. Getting them on Premier League TV in the U.S. would be a huge marketing win. And please move the Old Firm matches back from sunrise (in the U.S.) Sunday kickoffs.

Anyway, just echoing Dre's point that there could be some cool outcomes out of this and much more interesting league competitions.

What could the Premier League get in a tv deal without the top 6?

Maybe 20% of what they currently get?

PJYoung said:

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What could the Premier League get in a tv deal without the top 6?

Maybe 20% of what they currently get?

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That's probably a good ballpark.

BTW didn't realize how quickly the political blowback is happening.

Boris Johnson's office released a statement that "no action is off the table and the government is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure these proposals are stopped."

The French, Italian, and other governments have already signaled they'll do anything to stop it. And of course the Germans will not help this League happen in any way.

Serotonin said:

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PJYoung said:

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What could the Premier League get in a tv deal without the top 6?

Maybe 20% of what they currently get?

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That's probably a good ballpark.

BTW didn't realize how quickly the political blowback is happening.

Boris Johnson's office released a statement that "no action is off the table and the government is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure these proposals are stopped."

The French, Italian, and other governments have already signaled they'll do anything to stop it. And of course the Germans will not help this League happen in any way.

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Not sure what all they'll have the guts to do, but they can start by revoking work permits to foreign players and taxing the **** out of the clubs involved.

Dumb question: doesn't the E in UEFA stand for Europe? How can they ban western hemisphere players (like Messi, Neymar, and Dest) from playing in the world cup?

wangus12 said:

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Serotonin said:

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PJYoung said:

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What could the Premier League get in a tv deal without the top 6?

Maybe 20% of what they currently get?

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That's probably a good ballpark.

BTW didn't realize how quickly the political blowback is happening.

Boris Johnson's office released a statement that "no action is off the table and the government is exploring every possibility, including legislative options, to ensure these proposals are stopped."

The French, Italian, and other governments have already signaled they'll do anything to stop it. And of course the Germans will not help this League happen in any way.

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Not sure what all they'll have the guts to do, but they can start by revoking work permits to foreign players and taxing the **** out of the clubs involved.

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Yeah, around WW1 there was a backlash against the wealth of old estates and families that went way further back in time than these clubs.

So the UK simply changed the tax laws through the political process and not surprisingly, fast-forward and the UK government now owns a lot of those estates:
https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/houses-and-buildings

Point is that anything is possible in the political process.

FIFA has essentially agreed to back UEFA, so that's how western players would get barred from international duty

aTmAg said:

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Dumb question: doesn't the E in UEFA stand for Europe? How can they ban western hemisphere players (like Messi, Neymar, and Dest) from playing in the world cup?

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I think FIFA would have to step in for UEFA to do anything like that. I'm not sure UEFA could even ban these players from European teams at the World Cup finals (although they presumably do have control over qualifying).

aTmAg said:

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Dumb question: doesn't the E in UEFA stand for Europe? How can they ban western hemisphere players (like Messi, Neymar, and Dest) from playing in the world cup?

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I don't see how UEFA or FIFA will be able to ban any players from international comps. Players are under contract at these clubs. The club is making the decision not the players. If the players refuse to play they are in breach of contract and lose their livelihoods. A guy with only 1 yr left on his deal may be able to pull off a "strike" but one with 3-4 yrs isn't gonna be able to hold out for that duration if the club refuses to sell him.

To his point though CONCACAF decides who is eligible for international duty in North America so unless CONMEBOL and CONCACAF agree to do the same thing I don't know if western players will get barred from international duty. Unless I'm completely off base.

KCup17 said:

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I think Celtic and Rangers would match up well with mid table teams. As a Newcastle supporter it would be a crazy atmosphere of Celtic/Newcastle at St. James park or and Newcastle/Rangers match at Ibrox. It's a viable option but not one I'm sure that the FA will look into.

Side story I had a club coach growing up who was Scottish and played for Rangers in his career, I jokingly mentioned how I liked Celtic and he looked me dead in my face and swore me off the pitch during training. That was my first intro into the Old Firm Derby.

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Yeah, they hate each other and both sets of fans REALLY get up for friendlies with English sides. Can you imagine if they were actually playing English clubs with something at stake?

Rangers fans at Sheffield Weds friendly (in 2017, when Rangers suuuucked):


Celtic fans at Arsenal friendly:


It might be too much for the southern English clubs to handle.

wangus12 said:

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Here's the big driver in all likelihood. All these teams are basically in debt up to their eyeballs because of terrible management and this is a possible lifeline.

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Exactly, and here are some sources on why Bayern isn't looking to join. They are the most financially responsible club in the game right now. They paid off their new arena 16 years earlier than negotiated (source), they turned a profit in 2020 (source), and are known for taking their profit and paying down debts. And they are incredibly shrewd negotiators and don't mind letting players walk if their demands don't fit in their budget.

And they're incredibly philanthropic and have saved multiple German clubs from going under including Dortmund. So if you're looking for a new club to start following