New European Super League

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PascalsWager
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In reply to PJYoung • 11:28a, 4/20/21
AG
PJYoung said:
TXAggie2011 said:
I think its bull**** to say Bayern is the only team that "cares about winning" in Germany
Season Champion

200809 VfL Wolfsburg
200910 Bayern Munich
201011 Borussia Dortmund
201112 Borussia Dortmund
201213 Bayern Munich
201314 Bayern Munich
201415 Bayern Munich
201516 Bayern Munich
201617 Bayern Munich
201718 Bayern Munich
201819 Bayern Munich
201920 Bayern Munich
And this is merely the practical end of what my point is. Its actually worse than who ends up winning the league.

Go ask a St. Pauli fan in Hamburg why they support the club and why it exists in the first place. They're going talk about how they like to go the match with blue hair and wave rainbow flags. Winning trophies isn't even on the radar.

If I told a FC Koln fan that if they gave up control of their club to a private owner they could be in the top 6 every year and compete for the title and Cups OR you could toil in the Bundesliga 2 while maintaining your fan control of the club, they'd all pick keeping fan ownership.

Its a cute, community driven sentiment. But winning is low on the list of priorities to these people. The clubs and the league has no interest in growing their market or interest outside of Bayern. And so as long as the 50+1 rule exists, the Bundesliga is an irrelevant league with no interest to a foreigner and no one even within lightyears of truly challenging Bayern.
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PascalsWager
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In reply to Legal Custodian • 11:35a, 4/20/21
AG
Legal Custodian said:
Quote:
Bayern Mnchen get no credit in all of this for me because they play in an non-competitive league
When's the last time Real Madrid or Barcelona have missed the Champions League? Real hasn't missed a CL since 1997, Bayern last didn't make it in 2008. Get outta here with that non-competitive league talk. A non-competitive league that gets 3+ teams into the CL quarterfinals damn near every single year? Yeah, Bayern might win the league every year recently but to say it isn't a competitive league is disingenuous. Hell, Dortmund wouldn't even make the Europa league right now and they're considered one of the top3 clubs in Germany.
You're getting caught up in the practical. I don't think the Super League is actually coming to fruition. And if it doesn't, some rich guy is going to buy Sevilla or Valencia or Betis or some other big city club in Spain and they're going to pump in money and compete. Will they succeed? Who knows. But at least they can try.

Neither mechanism nor the willpower to do that exists in Germany. Germany has essentially given the league the Bayern Munich forever.
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JJxvi
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11:35a, 4/20/21
AG
The problem with Champions League/Europa League is that there is potentially so much money, but it is all conditional.

I think these clubs want more games (more games more revenue), a more equitable split among the teams (not conditional on winning games in it), so like Arsenal gets a substantial amount no matter what happens in the competition, rather than now where if suddenly you play poorly, or theres a bad call, and suddenly you are out of the competition in the group stage and you make less than you thought you were going to make this year), and finally yes the guarantee to be in the competition for a certain amount of time is huge. These clubs have to pay huge transfer fees, huge long term contracts, for some of them, they actually can't go all out to try and win the Champions League as is, because if they do that but **** up in the domestic league, suddenly they are staring Leeds United going down to tier 3 in the face.
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Pignorant
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11:43a, 4/20/21
AG
I think we've seen this on a more micro level with Sunderland. If you watched the Netflix "Sunderland till I Die", the club was in the Premier League for a number of years.They were not prepared for a gigantic loss in revenue when they started to play poorly were get relegated all the way down to League One. What happened after relegation? The club was sold and people were laid off. Even the guy who bought them tried to sell after a few years.

This Super League is a way for teams like Tottenham/Arsenal to keep revenues up even when performance is lacking. I also think it's a way to keep valuations high with no trophies (see Dallas Cowboys).
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PatAg
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In reply to PascalsWager • 11:44a, 4/20/21
AG
PascalsWager said:
PJYoung said:
TXAggie2011 said:
I think its bull**** to say Bayern is the only team that "cares about winning" in Germany
Season Champion

200809 VfL Wolfsburg
200910 Bayern Munich
201011 Borussia Dortmund
201112 Borussia Dortmund
201213 Bayern Munich
201314 Bayern Munich
201415 Bayern Munich
201516 Bayern Munich
201617 Bayern Munich
201718 Bayern Munich
201819 Bayern Munich
201920 Bayern Munich
And this is merely the practical end of what my point is. Its actually worse than who ends up winning the league.

Go ask a St. Pauli fan in Hamburg why they support the club and why it exists in the first place. They're going talk about how they like to go the match with blue hair and wave rainbow flags. Winning trophies isn't even on the radar.

If I told a FC Koln fan that if they gave up control of their club to a private owner they could be in the top 6 every year and compete for the title and Cups OR you could toil in the Bundesliga 2 while maintaining your fan control of the club, they'd all pick keeping fan ownership.

Its a cute, community driven sentiment. But winning is low on the list of priorities to these people. The clubs and the league has no interest in growing their market or interest outside of Bayern. And so as long as the 50+1 rule exists, the Bundesliga is an irrelevant league with no interest to a foreigner and no one even within lightyears of truly challenging Bayern.
Not sure how true any of this is. Sounds more like an opinion.
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LouisHerbertWong
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11:48a, 4/20/21
AG
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Furlock Bones
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11:50a, 4/20/21
AG
I do find the English myopathy and hypocrisy hilarious. They scream about the egalitarian nature of soccer. But the league with the actual most egalitarian ownership (Bundesliga) is literally dominated by 1 club. Fans around the world don't want this. By around the world, they mean Bristol to Newcastle. Spanish and Italian fans aren't screaming near as much. Worldwide fans would watch this at a rate never seen before. Oh and the big time owners that have come into the EPL have actually made the league more competitive than ever before.

It's all quite hilarious.
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PascalsWager
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In reply to PatAg • 12:02p, 4/20/21
AG
PatAg said:
PascalsWager said:
PJYoung said:
TXAggie2011 said:
I think its bull**** to say Bayern is the only team that "cares about winning" in Germany
Season Champion

200809 VfL Wolfsburg
200910 Bayern Munich
201011 Borussia Dortmund
201112 Borussia Dortmund
201213 Bayern Munich
201314 Bayern Munich
201415 Bayern Munich
201516 Bayern Munich
201617 Bayern Munich
201718 Bayern Munich
201819 Bayern Munich
201920 Bayern Munich
And this is merely the practical end of what my point is. Its actually worse than who ends up winning the league.

Go ask a St. Pauli fan in Hamburg why they support the club and why it exists in the first place. They're going talk about how they like to go the match with blue hair and wave rainbow flags. Winning trophies isn't even on the radar.

If I told a FC Koln fan that if they gave up control of their club to a private owner they could be in the top 6 every year and compete for the title and Cups OR you could toil in the Bundesliga 2 while maintaining your fan control of the club, they'd all pick keeping fan ownership.

Its a cute, community driven sentiment. But winning is low on the list of priorities to these people. The clubs and the league has no interest in growing their market or interest outside of Bayern. And so as long as the 50+1 rule exists, the Bundesliga is an irrelevant league with no interest to a foreigner and no one even within lightyears of truly challenging Bayern.
Not sure how true any of this is. Sounds more like an opinion.
Here is fair explanation of the 50+1 Rule.

Is anyone going to argue that money doesn't win football matches? None of the other German clubs can match Bayern's money. And they have no way of attracting investment because they're fan owned. The fans vote for things that benefit the current fans and nothing that attracts newer ones so they can't even make any more money.

This makes it impossible for a German club to EVER compete with Bayern. Sure its an opinion, but its grounded in reality.
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young eugene
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In reply to JJxvi • 12:12p, 4/20/21
AG
JJxvi said:
The problem with Champions League/Europa League is that there is potentially so much money, but it is all conditional.

I think these clubs want more games (more games more revenue), a more equitable split among the teams (not conditional on winning games in it), so like Arsenal gets a substantial amount no matter what happens in the competition, rather than now where if suddenly you play poorly, or theres a bad call, and suddenly you are out of the competition in the group stage and you make less than you thought you were going to make this year), and finally yes the guarantee to be in the competition for a certain amount of time is huge. These clubs have to pay huge transfer fees, huge long term contracts, for some of them, they actually can't go all out to try and win the Champions League as is, because if they do that but **** up in the domestic league, suddenly they are staring Leeds United going down to tier 3 in the face.
Wow, never knew how bad the Leeds situation was. I can absolutely understand owners seeking guaranteed/stable revenue sources.

2001 - Loans taken out with the prospect of playing in future Champions Leagues.
2002 - Miss out on UCL
2003 - Miss out on UCL. Best players sold to help repay loans.
2004 - Relegated to 2nd division. Have to sell stadium and training ground. Any players of value are sold or released to decrease wage bill.
2005 - Team sold.
2007 - Cannot pay off debts, relegated to 3rd tier.
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DeangeloVickers
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12:19p, 4/20/21
AG
I've been amazed how many Brits are blaming America
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JJxvi
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12:30p, 4/20/21
AG
Football fans in England are like "people of the land, the common clay of the new west"

Hell 30 years ago you probably couldnt tell someone you actually supported a football club without being pigeonholed as a certain type of person. Its always very much been a class war type thing. This is much closer to a political and emotional "**** rich people and globalism" argument than just pure "the sport would be better without this" argument
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Socrates05
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In reply to LouisHerbertWong • 12:36p, 4/20/21
AG
This is quite misleading from Tottenham's perspective. Maybe others as well I just don't follow them enough to know. Not all debt it bad. Debt for a new multi-use stadium with (COVID removed) nets a considerable profit over debt payments.

I'm against the super league simply because of the lack of relegation/promotion but the outcry against this makes me laugh. It (failure to qualify for Champion's League) effectively doesn't exist already for Bayern, Real, Barcelona, Juventus, etc. The English clubs are the only place where a chance of this remains and its not great (excepting Tottenham and Arsenal).

I split the 12 founding members into two groups, the non-English who are watching all of the worldwide money be funneled towards the Premier League and are mostly in substantial financial difficulties, and the English who are looking to further separate themselves financially from their competition. Again, I'm against that but to act like there is a huge difference between a permanent payment from this league versus being bought and doped by a UAE shiekh or Russian oligarch makes me roll my eyes. Just looking at this season's wages, the six super league teams have wages over the other 14 PL teams combined. The days of Nottingham Forest winning a title are long gone and it has nothing to do with any super league.

I also laugh at any hypocritical outcry from the horribly corrupt FIFA or only slightly less corrupt UEFA. The new Champions League format is a joke and continues to move further and further from the original idea of the European league winners competing. This iteration of the Champions League was started all the way back in 1997, hardly throwing away centuries of tradition.

It needs to go. Super League is fine and these clubs need a financial incentive to make the initial break. Promise no founder relegation for 5 years to ensure the transition and then open it up completely, removing their protection. Even increase the payment to the Associations to smooth over. It's sad but the days of clubs belonging to the neighborhood and having a connection to them are over. Worldwide media has destroyed it for better or most likely worse.
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Furlock Bones
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In reply to Socrates05 • 12:38p, 4/20/21
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A man who gets it.

As I reiterate, I am not in favor of the super league at all. But I recognize why it's happening
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EconAg18
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12:59p, 4/20/21
AG
Chelsea is out of the SL

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stillmerk
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1:00p, 4/20/21
AG
F Roman, but good for them correcting the mistake.
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TXAggie2011
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1:04p, 4/20/21
AG
Quote:
I'm against the super league simply because of the lack of relegation/promotion but the outcry against this makes me laugh. It (failure to qualify for Champion's League) effectively doesn't exist already for Bayern, Real, Barcelona, Juventus, etc. The English clubs are the only place where a chance of this remains and its not great (excepting Tottenham and Arsenal).
Its not been a given that either Milan club makes the Champions League in quite a while. Arsenal, Liverpool and Tottenham have all recently wandered, or are currently wandering the forest. Manchester United has finished outside the top 4 more often than not over the past 7 seasons. Folks seem to think everything is set in stone...until it isn't.

These clubs have great advantages and yeah, will make their way into the Champions League most of the time. And probably will advance through the tournament, too. (We can go down through that, too.) But apart from Spain, I suppose, where there's an undue amount of government help that allow Barca and Real to do a lot of dumb stuff, the current system does punish these clubs when they don't good care of their business.

There is certainly a lack of parity in European soccer. No doubt and I'm not trying to argue against that point, per se. But you dig into the particular 12 clubs making up the Super League and suddenly the
"exceptions to the rule" make up half the damn league.
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JCRiley09
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1:05p, 4/20/21
AG
What a joke if this all just collapses in a few days. Domestic leagues should still ban them from European competitions this year.
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Legal Custodian
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In reply to PascalsWager • 1:07p, 4/20/21
AG
PascalsWager said:
PatAg said:
PascalsWager said:
PJYoung said:
TXAggie2011 said:
I think its bull**** to say Bayern is the only team that "cares about winning" in Germany
Season Champion

200809 VfL Wolfsburg
200910 Bayern Munich
201011 Borussia Dortmund
201112 Borussia Dortmund
201213 Bayern Munich
201314 Bayern Munich
201415 Bayern Munich
201516 Bayern Munich
201617 Bayern Munich
201718 Bayern Munich
201819 Bayern Munich
201920 Bayern Munich
And this is merely the practical end of what my point is. Its actually worse than who ends up winning the league.

Go ask a St. Pauli fan in Hamburg why they support the club and why it exists in the first place. They're going talk about how they like to go the match with blue hair and wave rainbow flags. Winning trophies isn't even on the radar.

If I told a FC Koln fan that if they gave up control of their club to a private owner they could be in the top 6 every year and compete for the title and Cups OR you could toil in the Bundesliga 2 while maintaining your fan control of the club, they'd all pick keeping fan ownership.

Its a cute, community driven sentiment. But winning is low on the list of priorities to these people. The clubs and the league has no interest in growing their market or interest outside of Bayern. And so as long as the 50+1 rule exists, the Bundesliga is an irrelevant league with no interest to a foreigner and no one even within lightyears of truly challenging Bayern.
Not sure how true any of this is. Sounds more like an opinion.
Here is fair explanation of the 50+1 Rule.

Is anyone going to argue that money doesn't win football matches? None of the other German clubs can match Bayern's money. And they have no way of attracting investment because they're fan owned. The fans vote for things that benefit the current fans and nothing that attracts newer ones so they can't even make any more money.

This makes it impossible for a German club to EVER compete with Bayern. Sure its an opinion, but its grounded in reality.
Except for Bayern Leverkusen, Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg, and RB Leipzig which all have majority owners. The Bundesliga has grown in transfer spend every year to last year where they spent over 800 million euros on transfers. They have the largest fan attendance to matches, the cheapest tickets, and the lowest debt among all leagues.

Transfer spend of the top 6 teams in 19/20:
Dortmund - 162.25 million
Bayern - 138.6 million
Hertha Berlin - 117.37 million
Leverkusen - 105.6 million
RB Leipzig - 80.69 million
Eintracht Frankfurt - 86.17 million

And the year before that Bayern spent 11 million on transfers (Alphonso Davies, what a freaking steal that turned out to be and got Goretzka on a free transfer). So to say that they other clubs don't have the scratch to put together better competition is also disingenuous.

And actually the more I research this, Dortmund has spent more in transfers than Bayern each year of the past 5.
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agsalaska
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In reply to JCRiley09 • 1:11p, 4/20/21
AG
JCRiley09 said:
What a joke if this all just collapses in a few days. Domestic leagues should still ban them from European competitions this year.
Looks to me like it is collapsing right now and is already over.



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RebAg13
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1:16p, 4/20/21
AG
Boom!
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wangus12
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In reply to agsalaska • 1:17p, 4/20/21
AG
agsalaska said:
JCRiley09 said:
What a joke if this all just collapses in a few days. Domestic leagues should still ban them from European competitions this year.
Looks to me like it is collapsing right now and is already over.



Yep. They're getting cold feet. Need to learn to have diamond hands like the Gamestop redditors
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An Ag in CO
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1:17p, 4/20/21
AG
What is the problem they're trying to solve? Is it that the big clubs have spent too much in an arms race and now don't see a way back to profitability unless they can carve out some guarantees with respect to revenue? Why would any domestic league or federation help them do that?

Seems to me these big clubs simply want to limit competition for the highest revenue opportunities while still being able to enjoy the support of those who don't get to participate "because we'll shovel some money we earned your way so you'll be content with your lot in life".
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PascalsWager
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In reply to Legal Custodian • 1:18p, 4/20/21
AG
Legal Custodian said:
PascalsWager said:
PatAg said:
PascalsWager said:
PJYoung said:
TXAggie2011 said:
I think its bull**** to say Bayern is the only team that "cares about winning" in Germany
Season Champion

200809 VfL Wolfsburg
200910 Bayern Munich
201011 Borussia Dortmund
201112 Borussia Dortmund
201213 Bayern Munich
201314 Bayern Munich
201415 Bayern Munich
201516 Bayern Munich
201617 Bayern Munich
201718 Bayern Munich
201819 Bayern Munich
201920 Bayern Munich
And this is merely the practical end of what my point is. Its actually worse than who ends up winning the league.

Go ask a St. Pauli fan in Hamburg why they support the club and why it exists in the first place. They're going talk about how they like to go the match with blue hair and wave rainbow flags. Winning trophies isn't even on the radar.

If I told a FC Koln fan that if they gave up control of their club to a private owner they could be in the top 6 every year and compete for the title and Cups OR you could toil in the Bundesliga 2 while maintaining your fan control of the club, they'd all pick keeping fan ownership.

Its a cute, community driven sentiment. But winning is low on the list of priorities to these people. The clubs and the league has no interest in growing their market or interest outside of Bayern. And so as long as the 50+1 rule exists, the Bundesliga is an irrelevant league with no interest to a foreigner and no one even within lightyears of truly challenging Bayern.
Not sure how true any of this is. Sounds more like an opinion.
Here is fair explanation of the 50+1 Rule.

Is anyone going to argue that money doesn't win football matches? None of the other German clubs can match Bayern's money. And they have no way of attracting investment because they're fan owned. The fans vote for things that benefit the current fans and nothing that attracts newer ones so they can't even make any more money.

This makes it impossible for a German club to EVER compete with Bayern. Sure its an opinion, but its grounded in reality.
Except for Bayern Leverkusen, Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg, and RB Leipzig which all have majority owners. The Bundesliga has grown in transfer spend every year to last year where they spent over 800 million euros on transfers. They have the largest fan attendance to matches, the cheapest tickets, and the lowest debt among all leagues.

Transfer spend of the top 6 teams in 19/20:
Dortmund - 162.25 million
Bayern - 138.6 million
Hertha Berlin - 117.37 million
Leverkusen - 105.6 million
RB Leipzig - 80.69 million
Eintracht Frankfurt - 86.17 million

And the year before that Bayern spent 11 million on transfers (Alphonso Davies, what a freaking steal that turned out to be and got Goretzka on a free transfer). So to say that they other clubs don't have the scratch to put together better competition is also disingenuous.

And actually the more I research this, Dortmund has spent more in transfers than Bayern each year of the past 5.
Misleading because you're not looking at Net transfer spending.

AND the biggest way to use your money to succeed in football isn't transfer spending, its wages.
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wangus12
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1:19p, 4/20/21
AG
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Furlock Bones
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In reply to agsalaska • 1:20p, 4/20/21
AG
agsalaska said:
JCRiley09 said:
What a joke if this all just collapses in a few days. Domestic leagues should still ban them from European competitions this year.
Looks to me like it is collapsing right now and is already over.





At anyone that thinks this is over. The only way this truly ends is if FIFA and the domestic leagues come out and say if you do this, you are out of the league and European competitions immediately.

They never will do that. So, the big money clubs will continue to push until they get something they want.
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Dre_00
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In reply to Furlock Bones • 1:21p, 4/20/21

Didn't FIFA effectively already say that?

https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/super-league-fifa-president-gianni-infantino-warns-clubs-at-uefa-congress-either-youre-in-or-you-are-out/

Quote:
Infantino then spelled out to founding members Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Manchester United, Manchester City, Tottenham Hotspur, Juventus, Atletico Madrid, Barcelona, Real Madrid, AC Milan and Inter Milan that there will soon be no turning back.

"If some elect to go their own way then they must live with the consequences of their choice, they are responsible for their choice," he said. "Concretely this means, either you are in, or you are out. You cannot be half in and half out. This has to be absolutely clear,"
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wangus12
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1:22p, 4/20/21
AG
This thing is pretty much dead in the water



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Pignorant
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1:23p, 4/20/21
AG
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wangus12
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1:24p, 4/20/21
AG
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TXAggie2011
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In reply to Furlock Bones • 1:25p, 4/20/21
AG
Furlock Bones said:
agsalaska said:
JCRiley09 said:
What a joke if this all just collapses in a few days. Domestic leagues should still ban them from European competitions this year.
Looks to me like it is collapsing right now and is already over.

At anyone that thinks this is over. The only way this truly ends is if FIFA and the domestic leagues come out and say if you do this, you are out of the league and European competitions immediately.

They never will do that. So, the big money clubs will continue to push until they get something they want.
I mean, they've already done that or there is anticipation they're about to do that with the "Lousy 14" Premier League clubs about to meet, etc.

And I'm sure plenty has taken place behind the scenes so that not all the dirty laundry is being aired publicly.
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wangus12
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1:30p, 4/20/21
AG
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agsalaska
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In reply to An Ag in CO • 1:31p, 4/20/21
AG
An Ag in CO said:
What is the problem they're trying to solve? Is it that the big clubs have spent too much in an arms race and now don't see a way back to profitability unless they can carve out some guarantees with respect to revenue? Why would any domestic league or federation help them do that?

Seems to me these big clubs simply want to limit competition for the highest revenue opportunities while still being able to enjoy the support of those who don't get to participate "because we'll shovel some money we earned your way so you'll be content with your lot in life".
I think you nailed it answering your own question. Its a scheme to ease the risks on their own debt.


Someone mentioned it earlier, but from a fan's perspective(which I understand is not their reasoning), this won't work in the long run anyway. The reason Barca-Bayern game for example is such a draw is because it is rare. If they played four times a year it would just become another game.

I said this last night, but the current setup is pretty awesome I am a big fan of the Premier League. Look at it from a Spurs fans perspective. They led the league thru about ten games, then their domestic league season fell apart followed by Europe. But they can save their season this weekend in the LC final. The top four battle is pretty awesome right now too, and most seasons the relegation battle is on right now as well. Chelsea and City are in the Euro Semis, and Arsenal and ManU are in the the Europa League semis. And the Leicester-Chelsea FA Cup Final is going to be fantastic.

Point is there is no reason for the fans to want this, IMHO even foreign fans. There is plenty of great soccer every week even with the leagues mostly decided.
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EconAg18
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AG
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YouBet
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AG
That was a fun 48 hours. Already dead.

What's next?
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concac
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AG
This is great drama!!! Or a comedy depending on where you stand.
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