Meh. I doubt anyone on the roster has lost competitive fire. I'm sure they're plenty hungry. Folks were talking about how age was catching up to the team at the last World Cup. Its now a couple years later and we're still putting out much of the same roster.Kevin the 3-legged dog said:
They got their salaries. They got their benefits. Once they made the team they felt they had the right to be there. Then they complained about their comp structure trying to get the same bonuses as the men who only got paid to play.
They aren't as hungry as other countries. Maybe this is a wake up call.
USWNT Thread
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Last: 4 yr ago by littlebitofhifi
There is a thread on F16 talking about the pay discriminations claims from the WNT. Below is by far the best explanation I have seen about the current state of the WNT roster...AustinScubaAg said:I do not think we lack the talent coming in. I think this group has hung on too long. Their age was showing even in the last world cup. What is happening to the US is very similar to what happened to Spain and Germany on the men's side. You end up loosing a generation of talent when you stick with the old guard to long.oragator said:
Embarrassing today.
And it started with tactics, 3 in the back with Dunn not back there have the time because she was all the way up field was never going to work.
I honestly wonder if today was one of those demarcation points. The US can finish third in the group and advance (though right now even that is far from guaranteed), but if you look at what they have, the talent that carried them the last decade is aging out, the world is getting better, and we don't have the same talent coming up to replace it. Not that they will fall off the map by any stretch, but our age of dominance may be about over.
Quote:
So outside of politics, the way that the USWNT is paid is what is making the team stale.
USMNT is purely pay to play. The men that make the roster don't really need the money. They live on the salary they draw from their professional club. If you get called up to a camp, you get a check. If you get listed on the squad for different levels of games (World Cup, Gold Cup, friendly, etc), you get a base check regardless of result, a small add-on bonus for a draw and a bigger bonus for a win. It is very straightforward and it makes it really easy for the USMNT management to pick the best players available.
Men and women get the same treatment re travel, hotels, per-diem, etc.
Here's where it gets off the rails: the USWNT is NOT pay to play. Their main source of income is being on the USWNT roster. They have a pool of 30 players that draw a salary, benefits, a piece of the take from gate revenue, appearance bonuses, and some other fringe benefits. The 30 players draw a salary around $190,000/year which is for USWNT and professional league play. There is -- obviously -- massive incentive to keep your spot in the 30 player pool so you continue to draw your salary.
That is why you see a USWNT packed with played-out dinosaurs like Rapinoe (age 36) still on the roster instead of young talent capable of keeping up with the rest of the world. So the fact that the team got absolutely smoked by Sweden is no surprise. Sweden is trying to win. The USWNT is packed with aged-out has-been players that are clinging to their salary and their past glory.
The problem is that putting USWNT out to pasture when they should be is difficult because the USWNT is a hybrid of a competitive soccer team and Disney on Ice. The only people that give two craps about the team are Americans and that sells. So changing the roster is akin to subbing out Mickey Mouse for some new character. It's a hard sell to the audience.
Age has a lot to do with fire. But I also agree that they're old. I even made a post about how old they were.TXAggie2011 said:Meh. I doubt anyone on the roster has lost competitive fire. I'm sure they're plenty hungry. Folks were talking about how age was catching up to the team at the last World Cup. Its now a couple years later and we're still putting out much of the same roster.Kevin the 3-legged dog said:
They got their salaries. They got their benefits. Once they made the team they felt they had the right to be there. Then they complained about their comp structure trying to get the same bonuses as the men who only got paid to play.
They aren't as hungry as other countries. Maybe this is a wake up call.
edit: Read what Chjoak wrote above. That's exactly what I'm talking about.
We don't have any strikers that are world championship level coming up, at least that I have seen. Which was why Morgan (who has played badly for the NT all year) got the nod along with Lloyd. Who out there should have gone in their place? The team has struggled to score for the last few months regardless of who was out there up top. And the lack of scoring ability is probably why he put three up front today, and got torched for it.
Rapinoe may be the best pure skill player the team has ever had, and she is all but done. Who replaces her role? In the back, who is coming up that is as versatile and solid as Dunn? What emerging central back is as good or has even showed flashes of being like Ertz in her prime?
Again, not saying we are going to turn into a third world soccer country, just that the glory days of domination might be coming to an end, regardless of whether they find their way through this tournament or not. Yes we have talent coming up, but it isn't the generational talent we are losing.
Hope they prove me wrong long term, but today was a massive wake up call. If someone can point to the last time we were dominated like that in a major tournament they have a really long memory.
Rapinoe may be the best pure skill player the team has ever had, and she is all but done. Who replaces her role? In the back, who is coming up that is as versatile and solid as Dunn? What emerging central back is as good or has even showed flashes of being like Ertz in her prime?
Again, not saying we are going to turn into a third world soccer country, just that the glory days of domination might be coming to an end, regardless of whether they find their way through this tournament or not. Yes we have talent coming up, but it isn't the generational talent we are losing.
Hope they prove me wrong long term, but today was a massive wake up call. If someone can point to the last time we were dominated like that in a major tournament they have a really long memory.
I'm well aware they have financial incentive to want to stay on the team. Folks are going to interpret the consequences of that based on preconceived opinions. Like, the Texags Politics board isn't going to consider that if you want to keep your job, one way to help yourself is not **** the bed while on the job.Kevin the 3-legged dog said:Age has a lot to do with fire. But I also agree that they're old. I even made a post about how old they were.TXAggie2011 said:Meh. I doubt anyone on the roster has lost competitive fire. I'm sure they're plenty hungry. Folks were talking about how age was catching up to the team at the last World Cup. Its now a couple years later and we're still putting out much of the same roster.Kevin the 3-legged dog said:
They got their salaries. They got their benefits. Once they made the team they felt they had the right to be there. Then they complained about their comp structure trying to get the same bonuses as the men who only got paid to play.
They aren't as hungry as other countries. Maybe this is a wake up call.
edit: Read what Chjoak wrote above. That's exactly what I'm talking about.
Let me expand on the "age" comment---we were all commenting several years ago about the real physical consequences of age; e.g. having an aging forward group that couldn't quite beat defenders to loose balls anymore. We're fielding one forward under the age of 32, and Williams is 28. In other words, all the fire in the world isn't going to give a 39 year old Carli Lloyd the ability to tear apart a world class defense.
Many of us have been talking about this wake up call for sometime now. This is not just something neworagator said:
Hope they prove me wrong long term, but today was a massive wake up call. If someone can point to the last time we were dominated like that in a major tournament they have a really long memory.
The problem is that we don't know those answers because...oragator said:
We don't have any strikers that are world championship level coming up, at least that I have seen. Which was why Morgan (who has played badly for the NT all year) got the nod along with Lloyd. Who out there should have gone in their place? The team has struggled to score for the last few months regardless of who was out there up top. And the lack of scoring ability is probably why he put three up front today, and got torched for it.
Rapinoe may be the best pure skill player the team has ever had, and she is all but done. Who replaces her role? In the back, who is coming up that is as versatile and solid as Dunn? What emerging central back is as good or has even showed flashes of being like Ertz in her prime?
Again, not saying we are going to turn into a third world soccer country, just that the glory days of domination might be coming to an end, regardless of whether they find their way through this tournament or not. Yes we have talent coming up, but it isn't the generational talent we are losing.
Hope they prove me wrong long term, but today was a massive wake up call. If someone can point to the last time we were dominated like that in a major tournament they have a really long memory.
A) there is not a well established league that is developing new players to add to the selection pool meaning the development of WMT players falls heavily on the WMT itself.
B) because of the 30 player salary setup the WNT is not integrating new blood in until members of the 30 leave on their own. The MNT is integrating new blood in constantly. Seldom do you see a roster for a friendly or tournament that is identical to the prior roster. The WMT has essentially been using the same players with little to no rotation for years.
Perhaps this was just a bad outing against another very good side. It happens. Remember Germany's 7-1 thrashing of Brazil in the WC semifinal? Fortunately, we'll find out pretty quickly what this team is made of with only two days of rest between matches. I think it was expected that we would win the first match and then be able to make lineup changes to rest players in an "easier" second match. I'll be interested to see how that plays out now that our second match is a must win or draw. Need to get at least 4 points from the last two matches.
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Shea Groom ! 28+/- fast, goal scorer for Ags, led Houston Dash to championship of Womens PRO League -Hand Of God said:
Which younger players are better than those currently on the roster?
NEVER been called up ffor a tryout as for as I know ! Why ?
maybe so, but the few warm up games leading up to Olympics they have looked like **** IMO.Hand Of God said:
Perhaps this was just a bad outing against another very good side. It happens. Remember Germany's 7-1 thrashing of Brazil in the WC semifinal? Fortunately, we'll find out pretty quickly what this team is made of with only two days of rest between matches. I think it was expected that we would win the first match and then be able to make lineup changes to rest players in an "easier" second match. I'll be interested to see how that plays out now that our second match is a must win or draw. Need to get at least 4 points from the last two matches.
chjoak said:
A) there is not a well established league that is developing new players to add to the selection pool meaning the development of WMT players falls heavily on the WMT itself.
The NWSL:
Who has had a better league for developing players than US?chjoak said:
A) there is not a well established league that is developing new players to add to the selection pool meaning the development of WMT players falls heavily on the WMT itself.
We also have the women's college as a developmental league too. We have way more college players than anywhere else in the world. I am not aware of another country have a better development program than us.
In the past, nobody. Even just the college system put us so far above what every other country had. But now, that is no longer the case.ColoradoMooseHerd said:Who has had a better league for developing players than US?chjoak said:
A) there is not a well established league that is developing new players to add to the selection pool meaning the development of WMT players falls heavily on the WMT itself.
I think France easily has the most competitive women's league in the world and England has also really stepped up their division recently. The young women over there are starting to have training facilities and developmental programs run by the top clubs in the men's game. Those leagues offer the highest wages for the athletes with the average being double what the NWSL pays. All the top international players are pretty much playing in Europe except for the USWNT players bar a few (who as mentioned above, are salaried by the USWNT).
Also young players over in Europe are able to start playing against better competition as early as possible whereas the NWSL is currently getting sued because they won't let a young girl play in their league.
We had a big lead in the women's game forever, but its gone now. It was very easy to see during the 2019 WC that we were no longer the most technical team on the field and relied on straight athleticism to get by. We can't do that anymore.
See, this is one of the present challenges---some of the "younger" players are already 28.BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:Shea Groom ! 28+/- fast, goal scorer for Ags, led Dash to championship of PRO League - NEVER been called upHand Of God said:
Which younger players are better than those currently on the roster?
for a tryout as far as I know! WHY?
I think Mallory Pugh (23) would be starting in Tokyo if she'd been healthier over the last year or two.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/vlatko-andonovskis-uswnt-camp-roster-features-nwsl-mainstays-and-brazil-born-stanford-star-catarina-macario/amp/
Groom was called into a camp as recently as October 2020.
Groom was called into a camp as recently as October 2020.
And that league did whatever they could to keep out the best prospect in only god knows how long out of the league because she was 15.
I felt like the midfield is where we got killed today....and those are our younger players - Horan, Lavelle, Mewis. We don't have a defensive minded mid beyond Ertz.
They pressed and we couldn't keep possession to mount consistant attacking runs.
I know everyone likes to bang on Rapinoe and Lloyd for being olds and stealing roster spots from all the unknown superstars.....but they weren't the problem today.
They pressed and we couldn't keep possession to mount consistant attacking runs.
I know everyone likes to bang on Rapinoe and Lloyd for being olds and stealing roster spots from all the unknown superstars.....but they weren't the problem today.
In fact, Rapinoe created several of our most dangerous chances in the second half.
It's not that we don't have a good development system. We don't use it. By my research, of the last five years of college All American teams, there are two players who are on the Olympic roster. Could that generation be great, or terrible? Don't know. Wasted, either way.
NWSL could develop them, but they don't and won't. The league is where the elites go to get paid and stay fit between international matches.
NWSL could develop them, but they don't and won't. The league is where the elites go to get paid and stay fit between international matches.
Very true....that ball she brought down on the end line right at the goal post and fed to Press was silkysmooth.
I thought we did well when Lavelle would play really direct either on the dribble or via a pass, but otherwise looked a little overwhelmed by the pressAgRyan04 said:
I felt like the midfield is where we got killed today....and those are our younger players - Horan, Lavelle, Mewis. We don't have a defensive minded mid beyond Ertz.
They pressed and we couldn't keep possession to mount consistant attacking runs.
I know everyone likes to bang on Rapinoe and Lloyd for being olds and stealing roster spots from all the unknown superstars.....but they weren't the problem today.
Rapinoe gets **** on a lot but she always seems to create something when we need it the most
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The post quoted above was mine from the politics board and (obviously) worded/framed for the F16 audience.
My real lament is that there is real friction between the motivations for selecting the roster for the team. I know it might not be viable or desirable, but I would like to see them migrate to the USMNT pay-to-play system so that picking a roster doesn't come with as severe of political/celebrity/legacy implications.
My real lament is that there is real friction between the motivations for selecting the roster for the team. I know it might not be viable or desirable, but I would like to see them migrate to the USMNT pay-to-play system so that picking a roster doesn't come with as severe of political/celebrity/legacy implications.
Other than winning games, there's not a lot of incentives for USSF to try to incorporate new talent into the WNT and I don't know that Fed leadership values long-term competitiveness as a top tier priority above making cash in the present. Also, we've been winning regardless of the warning signs present. Players will obviously fight tooth and nail to get and then keep their roster spot, but the powers that be haven't really pushed to groom the next generation of US women's NT players.
That said, we got worked over pretty good today. The next two games just got the spotlight shined on them all the brighter.
That said, we got worked over pretty good today. The next two games just got the spotlight shined on them all the brighter.
jeffk said:
Other than winning games, there's not a lot of incentives for USSF to try to incorporate new talent into the WNT and I don't know that Fed leadership values long-term competitiveness as a top tier priority above making cash in the present. Also, we've been winning regardless of the warning signs present. Players will obviously fight tooth and nail to get and then keep their roster spot, but the powers that be haven't really pushed to groom the next generation of US women's NT players.
That said, we got worked over pretty good today. The next two games just got the spotlight shined on them all the brighter.
I'm quite sure leadership values money over long term success. In pondering this topic, my mind wandered to "whatever happened to the Algarve Cup?" I recall that being the international competition that mattered for a while.
It's still going on, but US Soccer created the She Believes Cup in the States that occurs at the same time. They gave up on competition and growth for money.
While this is true it is not like there are not usually at least quality opponents in the tournament. With that said being in the US means USSF wants to win which means it is not used to test the squad depth some.LeonardSkinner said:jeffk said:
Other than winning games, there's not a lot of incentives for USSF to try to incorporate new talent into the WNT and I don't know that Fed leadership values long-term competitiveness as a top tier priority above making cash in the present. Also, we've been winning regardless of the warning signs present. Players will obviously fight tooth and nail to get and then keep their roster spot, but the powers that be haven't really pushed to groom the next generation of US women's NT players.
That said, we got worked over pretty good today. The next two games just got the spotlight shined on them all the brighter.
I'm quite sure leadership values money over long term success. In pondering this topic, my mind wandered to "whatever happened to the Algarve Cup?" I recall that being the international competition that mattered for a while.
It's still going on, but US Soccer created the She Believes Cup in the States that occurs at the same time. They gave up on competition and growth for money.
Even though the Gold cup is a B/C team competition at this point, it puts the squad in a real competition that is something you never see on the Women's side.
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Exactly. And with the super-condensed qualification schedule the USMNT needs to get as many looks as they can.AustinScubaAg said:
Even though the Gold cup is a B/C team competition at this point, it puts the squad in a real competition that is something you never see on the Women's side.
https://babylonbee.com/news/inspiring-us-womens-soccer-team-to-boycott-scoring-goals-until-racism-is-defeated?fbclid=IwAR2m9TCVJpkp7YYdwDDjyHRhDmrdN2XR0C-89scPUw505wJt-I0YAhPZPGI
Quote:
"Yeah, we didn't score any goals against Sweden last night, but that was totally on purpose," said star player and beloved activist Megan Rapinoe. "This isn't the time to score goalswhen America is still racist. We totally could have beaten Sweden but we decided as a team that no goals will be scored until complete equality has been achieved in America. Also, we demand a hefty raise."
Onlookers were stunned during the second half of the game when Rapinoe dribbled the ball all the way to Sweden's unprotected goal and whispered "This is for you, people of color," before kicking the ball straight into the air and running headfirst into the goalpost.
LeonardSkinner said:jeffk said:
Other than winning games, there's not a lot of incentives for USSF to try to incorporate new talent into the WNT and I don't know that Fed leadership values long-term competitiveness as a top tier priority above making cash in the present. Also, we've been winning regardless of the warning signs present. Players will obviously fight tooth and nail to get and then keep their roster spot, but the powers that be haven't really pushed to groom the next generation of US women's NT players.
That said, we got worked over pretty good today. The next two games just got the spotlight shined on them all the brighter.
I'm quite sure leadership values money over long term success. In pondering this topic, my mind wandered to "whatever happened to the Algarve Cup?" I recall that being the international competition that mattered for a while.
It's still going on, but US Soccer created the She Believes Cup in the States that occurs at the same time. They gave up on competition and growth for money.
I'm sure they make more money in the She Believes Cup, but the competition at that event hasn't been lacking. Every country that has ever been at that event is currently ranked in the top 12 except Argentina who only got the spot this year due to Japan pulling out and limited teams willing to fill in due to COVID. France, Germany, England, Brazil have both played in the She Believes Cup more times in the past 5 years than in the Algarve Cup. We aren't dogging competition with the She Believes Cup.
And other top teams aren't playing in that cup every year either (and they weren't before we created the She Believes Cup either). It already split time with the top 10 ranked teams with the Cyprus Cup and other events.
It is still a good event, and was an even better event before it had an additional Cup to compete with, but it didn't have all the top teams in it. And considering a number of the bottom teams were much worse then who comes to the She Believes Cups, we often played a more difficult schedule in that Cup then we would have in the Algarve Cup. 2015 our last year with the Algarve Cup, we played #12 Norway, #19 Switzerland, #20 Iceland, & #3 France. The next year in the She Believes Cup we played #2 Germany, #3 France, & #5 England.
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Houston Dash wins the NWSL - K. Mewis only USA Olympic pick ! Dash coach now USA coach!
Of 19 on USA team 10 are over 30 - forwards mostly over 35 !
Prediction - coach will be fired from the USA team AND the Houston Dash .
Of 19 on USA team 10 are over 30 - forwards mostly over 35 !
Prediction - coach will be fired from the USA team AND the Houston Dash .
BigJim49 AustinNowDallas said:
Houston Dash wins the NWSL - K. Mewis only USA Olympic pick ! Dash coach now USA coach!
Of 19 on USA team 10 are over 30 - forwards mostly over 35 !
Prediction - coach will be fired from the USA team AND the Houston Dash .
This is a bizarre post. The Dash won last year's Challenge Cup. They've never won the league (and hadn't even made the playoffs.)
Vlatko Andonovski Is the USWNT coach. James Clarkson is the Dash coach.
The Dash do have 2 players representing the US (Mewis, Campbell), 1 for GB (Daly), and 3 for Canada (Chapman, Prince, Schmidt) but still not sure how anything the Dash does would remotely factor into the USWNT performance.
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The Challenge Cup served as the 2020 NWSL season due to virus.
Campbell GK recently added to USA squad .
I was wrong on coach.
If Dash won the Challenge Cup of the NWSL, you would think their roster would have a player or 2
close to Olympic caliber. Sure enough!
Thanks for your input.
Campbell GK recently added to USA squad .
I was wrong on coach.
If Dash won the Challenge Cup of the NWSL, you would think their roster would have a player or 2
close to Olympic caliber. Sure enough!
Thanks for your input.
Whoa
Sweden spanked that azz today. Good thing New Zealand is up next.
Sweden spanked that azz today. Good thing New Zealand is up next.
Without a doubt Pugh should be starting if not injured.TheAngelFlight said:
See, this is one of the present challenges---some of the "younger" players are already 28.
I think Mallory Pugh (23) would be starting in Tokyo if she'd been healthier over the last year or two.
But their are other younger players that need to be invited to camps and friendlies more often and given more opportunities to develop. Sophia Smith, Catarina Macario, Jaelin Howell, Alana Cook and others need more playing time and we have to stay dedicated to them.
"Post-pandemic, it's clear that the American women's team needs to get back to more frequent matches against the Euro powers No. 2 Germany, No. 3 France, No. 4 Netherlands, No. 5 Sweden, No. 6 England. They only played those teams three times since that July 2019 World Cup final. If soccer playing is also problem-solving on the field, the American players need to face the problem teams more often."nereus said:LeonardSkinner said:jeffk said:
Other than winning games, there's not a lot of incentives for USSF to try to incorporate new talent into the WNT and I don't know that Fed leadership values long-term competitiveness as a top tier priority above making cash in the present. Also, we've been winning regardless of the warning signs present. Players will obviously fight tooth and nail to get and then keep their roster spot, but the powers that be haven't really pushed to groom the next generation of US women's NT players.
That said, we got worked over pretty good today. The next two games just got the spotlight shined on them all the brighter.
I'm quite sure leadership values money over long term success. In pondering this topic, my mind wandered to "whatever happened to the Algarve Cup?" I recall that being the international competition that mattered for a while.
It's still going on, but US Soccer created the She Believes Cup in the States that occurs at the same time. They gave up on competition and growth for money.
I'm sure they make more money in the She Believes Cup, but the competition at that event hasn't been lacking. Every country that has ever been at that event is currently ranked in the top 12 except Argentina who only got the spot this year due to Japan pulling out and limited teams willing to fill in due to COVID. France, Germany, England, Brazil have both played in the She Believes Cup more times in the past 5 years than in the Algarve Cup. We aren't dogging competition with the She Believes Cup.
And other top teams aren't playing in that cup every year either (and they weren't before we created the She Believes Cup either). It already split time with the top 10 ranked teams with the Cyprus Cup and other events.
It is still a good event, and was an even better event before it had an additional Cup to compete with, but it didn't have all the top teams in it. And considering a number of the bottom teams were much worse then who comes to the She Believes Cups, we often played a more difficult schedule in that Cup then we would have in the Algarve Cup. 2015 our last year with the Algarve Cup, we played #12 Norway, #19 Switzerland, #20 Iceland, & #3 France. The next year in the She Believes Cup we played #2 Germany, #3 France, & #5 England.
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