Lol at the idea that "people don't know" OU made the final 4 after beating us in the s16.

this is page 3, nobody still has explained why we owe BK an apology?

GrayMatter said:

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Titan83 said:

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Quote:

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The miracle minute in the tourney had little to do with BK. It was a great team effort against Northern Iowa. We promptly exited with a 14 point loss to Oklahoma the next weekend.

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Not one person is important as the other. The win was a team effort.

We like to dwell on the losses, but don't let the facts derail the reality that we lost to teams that went on to the Final Four (Michigan/Oklahoma) with Michigan going on to the Championship game.

It wouldn't have mattered if we lost by 2 or 50, a loss is a loss.

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No- getting embarrassed is far worse. And we were embarrassed in both exits. It says that team doesn't belong.

Contrast to Turge and BCG- almost every year we got our heart ripped out in our (yearly) tournament appearances. Reflective of a competitive, well-coached program.

BK just got some gigantic breaks to make it to the sweet 16 (northern iowa to say the least- which is a joke that game was even competitive- we were far more talented)...

I have to admit to getting irritated when I come to the BBall board and this thread topic is still up near the top. Just the words in the subject line cause my blood pressure to rise.

Nothing gets read of a thread quicker than posting how much you hate it on it. You must be a c... oh, right.

bobinator said:

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Nothing gets read of a thread quicker than posting how much you hate it on it. You must be a c... oh, right.

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Man, I held off posting that thought for 2 weeks but I broke. Just day after day of groaning to myself when I see the thread title, got weak and publicly groaned.

Oh, and Bump. ****.

So what about the two sweet 16 appearances and beating the hell out of a good North Carolina team? he was also maybe a better recruiter than he was a coach. Not saying we shouldn't have fired him but appreciate what he did.

Every BK thread is really about Eric Hymen. BK should have been fired after year 3 and EH told fans to 'manage expectations' and gave the guy who had finished 3x10th place in conf a 2 yr extension.

Aston04 said:

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GrayMatter said:

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Titan83 said:

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Quote:

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The miracle minute in the tourney had little to do with BK. It was a great team effort against Northern Iowa. We promptly exited with a 14 point loss to Oklahoma the next weekend.

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Not one person is important as the other. The win was a team effort.

We like to dwell on the losses, but don't let the facts derail the reality that we lost to teams that went on to the Final Four (Michigan/Oklahoma) with Michigan going on to the Championship game.

It wouldn't have mattered if we lost by 2 or 50, a loss is a loss.

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No- getting embarrassed is far worse. And we were embarrassed in both exits. It says that team doesn't belong.

Contrast to Turge and BCG- almost every year we got our heart ripped out in our (yearly) tournament appearances. Reflective of a competitive, well-coached program.

BK just got some gigantic breaks to make it to the sweet 16 (northern iowa to say the least- which is a joke that game was even competitive- we were far more talented)...

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Disagree. Blowouts happen all the time in the tournament and they don't really mean anything to anyone excluding the school that's getting blown out. Do you think NC deserved to be in the Big Dance when we whipped them?

Some people are so upset in how the first half of his tenure went that nothing he could've done would change their opinion of him. All the good was him being lucky or catching a break, but all of the bad was because of him.

I'll just say it was awesome to have two sweet 16 squads here while I was a student. Some incredible games including the Ben Simmons game, Kentucky 2015, etc. That doesn't mean we shouldn't have fired him and strived for better

GrayMatter said:

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Aston04 said:

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GrayMatter said:

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Titan83 said:

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Quote:

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The miracle minute in the tourney had little to do with BK. It was a great team effort against Northern Iowa. We promptly exited with a 14 point loss to Oklahoma the next weekend.

---

---

Not one person is important as the other. The win was a team effort.

We like to dwell on the losses, but don't let the facts derail the reality that we lost to teams that went on to the Final Four (Michigan/Oklahoma) with Michigan going on to the Championship game.

It wouldn't have mattered if we lost by 2 or 50, a loss is a loss.

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No- getting embarrassed is far worse. And we were embarrassed in both exits. It says that team doesn't belong.

Contrast to Turge and BCG- almost every year we got our heart ripped out in our (yearly) tournament appearances. Reflective of a competitive, well-coached program.

BK just got some gigantic breaks to make it to the sweet 16 (northern iowa to say the least- which is a joke that game was even competitive- we were far more talented)...

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Disagree. Blowouts happen all the time in the tournament and they don't really mean anything to anyone excluding the school that's getting blown out. Do you think NC deserved to be in the Big Dance when we whipped them?

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The Michigan blowout and OU blowout were both embarrassingly bad. Especially the Michigan one. Massively outcoached. UNC game was the exception to the rule of the BK era.

All apologies should be directed to Rick Stansbury. Thanks for your time

The Kennedy era was so up and down.

Double Diamond said:

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The Kennedy era was so up and down.

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Not really, in 8 seasons Kennedy only made the NCAA tournament twice.

In 2016 we had a very good team, an anomaly during Kennedy's time at A&M. That team finished 13-5 in conference, tied for first place, and made the sweet 16. Yes, the fact we had to have a beyond historic comeback to beat a Northern Iowa team we were favored against was ridiculous - but the quality of that team was worthy of sweet 16 imo. Built that team with two high quality transfers in House and Jones and had some good young recruits.

The only other time Kennedy made the NCAA tournament was 2018, and that team finished 9-9 in conference, 7th place, and was very much a borderline tournament team. I want to say it was the first time the SEC ever got 7 teams in? We were 6-9 in conference before winning our last 3 conference games by a total of 10 points, then lost our only game in the SEC tournament, but somehow still got in and as a 7 seed no less. Struggled to beat #10 Providence then had one of those "makes no sense" games to beat UNC and make sweet 16 again. But that was no Sweet 16 team and I was surprised we even made the tournament. We did have some good non con wins early in year.

The 2015 team was better than that 2018 team, but didn't even make the tournament.

So I felt we were pretty mediocre to bad all years other than 2015-2016.

15 better than 18?? Username definitely checks out

Tavares19 said:

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15 better than 18?? Username definitely checks out

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3 NBA players vs 1.

Tavares19 said:

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15 better than 18?? Username definitely checks out

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2014-2015 equals 2015 team and 2017-2018 equals 2018 team.

2015 finished regular season 20-11 (21-12 after post season), 11-7 and tied for third in conference (with 3 other 11-7 teams, yes). There were 11-5 in conference before losing their last two in regular conference play and their only SEC tournament game, dropping them from an at large bid.

2018 finished regular season 20-12 (22-13 after postseason), 9-9 and tied for 7th conference (with 1 other 9-9 team). They were 6-9 in conference before winning their final 3 in regular conference play by 10 total points, lost to 9 seed Alabama in the SEC tournament, and somehow squeezed into the NCAA tournament as one of an unprecedented 7 SEC teams.


If that looks night and day different to you, I don't agree. I certainly don't think it captures the quality of the teams to say "one was a sweet 16 team and one not even an NCAA tournament team". Which one you think is better could be debated, but that 2015 team had a better regular season and better roster to me.

This would be a good thread debate.

I think when the '18 team was all on the court it was better than the '15 team and I'm not even sure it's close, but on a given game with the '18 team there was at least a 50% chance someone was suspended or injured.

The 18 team also started horrible in conference because half the starters were hurt/suspended. Lost to Kentucky and LSU by a combined 2 points. People seem to forget that. When they were all healthy outside of a 2-3 games they were really good. Beat down West Virginia, UNC rout. Beat ranked Kentucky and Auburn teams. 15 team had no depth and didn't beat a ranked team the entire season

15 coaching staff was better than 18.

I'm happy to go back to my "6 out of 8 Kennedy seasons were mediocre to poor" initial argument, but the 2015/2018 debate is interesting to me mostly because people just say "sweet 16 team!" to describe the 2018 results but it was a struggle during that regular season. Again, all excuses or explanations aside, I feel the 2015 regular season holds up as as-good, at a minimum, to that 2018 regular season result as far as deserving of a bid. I'm with you on the injuries and ranked teams, good arguments if pitting end of season 2015 team vs end of season 2018. The 2015 team team did go to double OT against a very high ranked Kentucky team but I don't really recall strong wins, you are right.

I mean I agree I thought they were bid worthy. They were a solid team. Problem was the SEC was flat out horrible that year and House got hurt at the end which ruined their chances.

The 18 team was weird. It was a weird year. Lots of in-season turmoil. I'm of the opinion though that in terms of just peak potential and performance it was better than even the 16 team. They just didn't always show it (this is assuming a healthy Duane Wilson)

I mean with a healthy Duane Wilson it's not even close right?

I'm not even sure it's close anyway.

Even with the wild in-season suspend-a-thon we're still talking a 2 seed in the NIT vs a 7 in the NCAA's. That's like 20 spots different.

The '18 team had five wins better than any the '15 team had, and the '15 team had three losses worse than any the '18 team had.

Now, which team was it easier to be a fan of? '15 for sure. The '18 season was a grind because of how annoying the suspensions were and what that team could have been capable of. But at its best, that team was good.

Sweet 16 is part talent, part coaching, and part stepping up in the moment. Kennedy deserves credit for both trips and both outcomes. I enjoyed both trips and both outcomes.

I don't think we should look to undermine how enjoyable those two NCAA trips were even if there were holes in the season or in the actual S16 games.

Perspective is helpful no matter how we sum up everything else. But is that a cause for apology? I don't see that. Even though some were more gracious and some were less thrilled. In the end Woodward appears to have accepted the job of finalizing Kennedy's relationship with the school and did do so in a friendly fashion. Both men deserve kudos for the resulting outcome. Kennedy said a little. Woodward didn't seek to throw Kennedy under the bus. And Sharp seems to have convinced Woodward it was okay if he wanted to go to LSU...

Well, now maybe we are talking two different things. You could debate the actual season - reality - or you could debate which team, if fully healthy and not suspended and playing together, could play at a higher peak.

Definitely expectations for a season vs the results can impact memory. 2018 team was in the AP preseason poll and picked to finish 3rd in conference. They moved up as high as #8 in the poll by the end of non conference play then promptly opened the SEC slate 0-5 and finished 9-9 (or 9-10 with conference tourney loss) for 7th in the league. Huge letdown and as you mentioned it was a cluster of a season. 6-8 against ranked teams shows challenge of the schedule though.

2015 team was preseason #9 in the SEC but ended up finishing 3rd, so definitely leaves a better memory in my mind. An overachieving vs underachieving team definitely sways my perceptions. Were never ranked in 2015 though and looks like they only played 2 teams that were ranked when we played them - which seems unbelievable and definitely not a detail I remembered. Lost both too, although Kentucky was #1 and we went double OT with them.

I think debating either way the 2018 team is still better. I'm saying if you're doing the latter it's not even close, and I'm not really sure it's that close even if you're doing the former.

Aston04 said:

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GrayMatter said:

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Aston04 said:

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GrayMatter said:

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Titan83 said:

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Quote:

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The miracle minute in the tourney had little to do with BK. It was a great team effort against Northern Iowa. We promptly exited with a 14 point loss to Oklahoma the next weekend.

---

---

Not one person is important as the other. The win was a team effort.

We like to dwell on the losses, but don't let the facts derail the reality that we lost to teams that went on to the Final Four (Michigan/Oklahoma) with Michigan going on to the Championship game.

It wouldn't have mattered if we lost by 2 or 50, a loss is a loss.

---

No- getting embarrassed is far worse. And we were embarrassed in both exits. It says that team doesn't belong.

Contrast to Turge and BCG- almost every year we got our heart ripped out in our (yearly) tournament appearances. Reflective of a competitive, well-coached program.

BK just got some gigantic breaks to make it to the sweet 16 (northern iowa to say the least- which is a joke that game was even competitive- we were far more talented)...

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Disagree. Blowouts happen all the time in the tournament and they don't really mean anything to anyone excluding the school that's getting blown out. Do you think NC deserved to be in the Big Dance when we whipped them?

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The Michigan blowout and OU blowout were both embarrassingly bad. Especially the Michigan one. Massively outcoached. UNC game was the exception to the rule of the BK era.

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I'm not arguing that we were outcoached in either of those games. I remember thinking during the Michigan game that it didn't matter what we did, they were simply hot. They were hitting everything that day and it was just a bad match up for us. The NC game was a bad matchup for them; our strengths were their weaknesses and we caught the perfect storm in that matchup.

My issue is [and has always been] this: If you're going to beleaguer the coach for all the personnel mismanagement and coaching strategies that led to all those losses in the tournament and regular season, then you should also commend him for the all right choices that were made on our way to 2 Sweet Sixteen appearances in 3 years.

That has never been done before in our history; end of story.

And to answer the OP; no we don't owe BK anything based on what is currently happening. It's trolling at its finest but because there has been nothing exciting happening for our team lately, it's easy to pick on the one thing that gets people riled up (i.e. talking about past coaching hires, #theZoo).

Interesting that it cost us about $5 million to get same results we were getting with Kennedy. Not saying that Buzz isn't worth it long term but I think we pay him 1.3m more per season then we did Kennedy. And also the rest of his buyout as well. Tough to look at it that way but not my money

Wicked Good Ag said:

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Interesting that it cost us about $5 million to get same results we were getting with Kennedy. Not saying that Buzz isn't worth it long term but I think we pay him 1.3m more per season then we did Kennedy. And also the rest of his buyout as well. Tough to look at it that way but not my money

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I don't even know where to start with this post.

Wicked Good Ag said:

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Interesting that it cost us about $5 million to get same results we were getting with Kennedy. Not saying that Buzz isn't worth it long term but I think we pay him 1.3m more per season then we did Kennedy. And also the rest of his buyout as well. Tough to look at it that way but not my money

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It's not your money so don't worry about it.

SilverTongueDevil said:

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It was generous (and very typical) of the administration to keep him employed after year 3. He did have a nice recruiting class that enable him to have some success in years 5&7 and I give him credit for that. But his coaching was simply awful. We were very fortunate to have the miracle and against UNI and we got blown out by OU and Michigan when those teams were talented enough to go ever further.

Buzz is a far superior coach to BK. But......we need to see Buzz to a much better job of talent acquisition.

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Where do you get the "(and very typical)"??? I think I disagree with that

Maroon Dawn said:

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TxAg76 said:

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Maroon Dawn said:

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mcag83 said:

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Maroon Dawn said:

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No

He needed to be fired far sooner than he was

That said Buzz needs to start earning his checks because he is a huge disappointment so far

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MD....the politics board misses you. Please go back to them.

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Oh I'm sorry, are you happy with the job he's doing for what we are paying him?

This is a sport where just one guy can elevate the entire team. It's not football where even good coaches can take years to show wether they're a good investment or not. Basketball coaches let you know who they are in season 1 and I'm not impressed at all.

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I was very impressed in year 1. Started slow, but hit a rhythm and finished well.
As in, deserving of the SEC Coach of the Year type of finished well.

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It impresses you that it took him over half the year to regain control over the locker room and get a talented team to start playing like they could at a point where it no longer mattered anyway

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We've apparently got two different ideas of what "a talented team" looks like....

The Kennedy tenure was very up and down, which makes him one of the best coaches we've ever had. That's sad.

Buzz is a far better coach. But he still lacks a few players that he needs to get.

AggieHoopsGuy said:

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All apologies should be directed to Rick Stansbury. Thanks for your time

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Not to derail the thread, but what's happening with Stansbury? Don't recall hearing his or WKU's name mentioned since he left us.