It is what it is at this point. Great efforts by Rogers and Humphreys, nothing to be ashamed of and plenty of room to grow and improve. The Felix/Tarmoh deal, however, best be settled in a runoff. Save coin flips for determining who gets to defer possession to the second half.

I don't follow T&F through the season, so I don't know when the guys with A standards made their throws. But LOB - you should know that those that already have the A standard probably treat trials as a in-season meet. They will time their training to peak in London. That's the reward for getting the A standard early.

Humphrey was fantastic and I wish he had made the team. The Olympics just came one year early for him.

It's disappointing that we apparently suck so bad as a country in the javelin (and the 10K) that we would treat a once-in-every-four-year meet as an in-season meet.

LOB - I think it is rather amazing that so few American athletes earn the A standard. If we had 8 throwers with the A standard then trials would be the fight to the death that it should be.

But as it is - if you are a javelin thrower that earned the A standard in January, wouldn't you train through trials if there were only a few others with the A standard?

While your point holds true in many instances, Spicewood, others that hit the A Standard early are not in a position to be their best at the games, so the argument will always be there. I don't feel Sam was "screwed" or any such nonsense, but I do believe that any athlete that wins the Trials while hitting a B Standard should be on the team. You peak at the right time, you get rewarded for it.

Some athletes are just "off" with regard to the Olympic calendar and I think that Shelbi and possibly Sam both were.

Most consider an athlete's age as whether they are "in-sync" with the four year cycle because they are viewing it as the most competitive years of the athlete's career yielding the most chances to reach the games. Obviously a truth, but there is another factor that I think comes into play here and that is whether the athlete is in a big growth year. This affects things in two ways:

1) Shelbi, for example, is competing (and winning) major meets at an age where this is not typical in a strength-based field event. You can even say, given her records, that it has always taken more development for an athlete to throw what Shelbi is throwing. The light turns on for everyone at a different stage but usually it takes a little longer in something like a throwing event. It's similar to HS linemen or post players...can one come in and play right away? Yes. Can they come in and dominate right away? Almost never.

These two have both had a year where they surged so far past their PRs and you would think that would help with making the team, but it just isn't that practical to expect it to continue. This is why Sam's performance is so incredible. Given better weather, I don't have any doubt he would have it the A Standard.

2) If either of the athletes were a year farther along in their training, they would likely have settled more into throwing these surging numbers as a norm. That would mean that a surge could be expected/hoped for and making the team would be more of an anticipated event...one that would change their training calendar and peak times. Shelbi is an example of this in that I feel she isn't truly peaking right now, but is instead on the back side of her season.

Three months ago people were thinking she could do something special at the JRs and get some experience at the Trials, but her surging PRs have put her in a position that her training probably did not take into account...she should have been aimed at peaking at the JRs and likely was.

Either way, two amazing seasons from two amazing athletes we get to continue watching grow in Aggieland.

One thing that is favorable to a female high schooler in the shot and disc is that the weight doesn't change when moving up to college/open, thus breeding familiarity with the implements. Not so in the men's implement.

Flanagan admitted she had deliberately slowed the pace to help her teammate if I understand right!

At best that is poor sportsmanship!

At worst she basically threw the race ! Probably a violation of rules that would potentially get her thrown out!

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While your point holds true in many instances, Spicewood, others that hit the A Standard early are not in a position to be their best at the games, so the argument will always be there. I don't feel Sam was "screwed" or any such nonsense, but I do believe that any athlete that wins the Trials while hitting a B Standard should be on the team. You peak at the right time, you get rewarded for it.

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In the case of the javelin, Kinsley and Furey posted their standards two weeks ago. With a 6 week run up to the real "right time" to peak, that's not significant enough in my mind to pass over both of them in favor of a single B standard.

The upshot of all of this is that in some events, we don't have the guys and gals that can consistently put up competitive performances. We have a lot of "almost there" athletes that perform fairly similar. When that's the case, I'd happily take multiple athletes over a single athlete. Perhaps USATF should bring forward the A standard timeline closer to the trials.

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While your point holds true in many instances, Spicewood, others that hit the A Standard early are not in a position to be their best at the games, so the argument will always be there. I don't feel Sam was "screwed" or any such nonsense, but I do believe that any athlete that wins the Trials while hitting a B Standard should be on the team. You peak at the right time, you get rewarded for it.

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In the case of the javelin, Kinsley and Furey posted their standards two weeks ago. With a 6 week run up to the real "right time" to peak, that's not significant enough in my mind to pass over both of them in favor of a single B standard.

The upshot of all of this is that in some events, we don't have the guys and gals that can consistently put up competitive performances. We have a lot of "almost there" athletes that perform fairly similar. When that's the case, I'd happily take multiple athletes over a single athlete. Perhaps USATF should bring forward the A standard timeline closer to the trials.

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You misunderstood what I was trying to say.

For one, my comment about the B Standard going was not specifically aimed at the javelin this year. I have always felt that a B Standard that wins the Trials has earned the right to represent the country.

For another, I was talking about the B Standard winner getting ONE of the three spots with the two highest finishing A Standard holders going, as well.

I have always hated the fact that someone can coast through the trials and get 6th or 8th and get in over the winner. Yes, as Spicewood said, they can be attempting to set their training cycle, but that is not always the case.

No, I understood.

And if they take a single A standard, they can't take a B standard. Its 1 to 3 A standards OR 1 B standard OR no one at all. (Save one scenario when you have no athletes in any event meeting the B standard)

Yes, you are correct under the rules as they are currently.

I was making a comment about what I would prefer the rules were rather than what they currently are.

I think they agree with me to some extent, as the current rule states that if there is a single A Standard athlete and a B Standard athlete wins the Trials, the B Standard athlete gets the nod.

I think I'd have a hard time getting excited about an Olympic field doubled in size by mediocre athletes.

As much as I love track, it would get too long and too water downed for my tastes.

I don't mind that rule so much, its kind of in line with the power in numbers theory I was talking about.

It is also important to note that it is the IAAF rather than USATF that sets the A and B standards to control field sizes. To take a B over multiple A qualifiers is to diminish your prospects of taking home medals. The A standards are set high enough that anyone who meets them must be considered at least a serious candidate to make the final if not medal.

As for the Flanagan situation in the 10,000, there is no poor sportsmanship involved at all on her part. Team racing is long a part of what is involved in that distance. Our athletes will see it in both the men's and women's 10K races in London with the Kenyans and Ethiopians. One athlete does not control the tempo of the race unless the rest of the field is willing to go along with it. When Flanagan went to the front and slowed the pace down all it would have taken is one athlete to go around her or even more, surge to make it more difficult for the other girl to catch up to the field. It happened early enough in the race that those in the field who didn't have an A standard could have pushed the pace harder to try and reach it. This meet was very valuable experience for Rogers and hopefully she will benefit from it. It does her or the sport no good to try and scapegoat someone else for what happened in the race. She is running with the big girls now and that is part of it.

One thing the US could do with regard to A and B standards is what you see in other countries. You have to hit the A mark during the current season. The Olympics accept A standards from part of last year. I don't know when all of these athletes reached their A standard and have no desire to do the research. It is possible that some of these marks are from last year. I know my compadres in Poland only take athletes with A standards to the games. You can be an athlete that wins the national championship, have a B standard that is almost an A like Sam and still not get selected to the meet. You even have to get your A marks in certified meets. You can't go to some all comers competition and hit a mark like you can in the US. We are very lax in how we consider marks but we take more track athletes than any other country and are more liberal in how we select our team to give the maximum number of athletes a chance to participate.

If I understand right, Flanagan was not even going to do the 10K in London - she should not have been in the race.

Then she picked out a friend and slowed the pace to help her friend. This would be a CRIME in other sports!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

None of this is to make an excuse for Rogers not to have reached the A standard. Considering that she had raced the 10K only three times before, her NCAA and Trials placing was remarkable as others have said.

She is better than the ones she beat - the ones who had met the A standard- they had to run their best since anyone who finished ahead and met the A standard would have knocked them out of their Olympic spot!

And she still beat them!

[This message has been edited by BigJim49 AustinNowDallas (edited 6/27/2012 11:59a).]

[This message has been edited by BigJim49 AustinNowDallas (edited 6/27/2012 12:01p).]

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One thing the US could do with regard to A and B standards is what you see in other countries. You have to hit the A mark during the current season. The Olympics accept A standards from part of last year. I don't know when all of these athletes reached their A standard and have no desire to do the research. It is possible that some of these marks are from last year. I know my compadres in Poland only take athletes with A standards to the games. You can be an athlete that wins the national championship, have a B standard that is almost an A like Sam and still not get selected to the meet. You even have to get your A marks in certified meets. You can't go to some all comers competition and hit a mark like you can in the US. We are very lax in how we consider marks but we take more track athletes than any other country and are more liberal in how we select our team to give the maximum number of athletes a chance to participate.

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We do this the same here...the season runs based on what the USATF sets each year, if I remember correctly. As for Sam's specific case, two of the three A Standard throwers met it in the last month or so...the other met it last October.

The Rogers situation is what an individual event in a team sport is all about...just like drafting in racing or taking out a guy at 2nd on a slide.

[This message has been edited by Chase (edited 6/27/2012 1:59p).]

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If I understand right, Flanagan was not even going to do the 10K in London - she should not have been in the race.

Then she picked out a friend and slowed the pace to help her friend. This would be a CRIME in other sports!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Flanagan didn't slow the race. Flanagan slowed Flanagan. Someone can only "slow the race" if the field says "this pace is fine" and no one else steps up and pushes it.

FWIW, a slow Flanagan is still pretty fast. That wasn't a slow race, and I have a feeling few, if any, had it in them that night to push the pace much quicker.

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She is better than the ones she beat - the ones who had met the A standard- they had to run their best since anyone who finished ahead and met the A standard would have knocked them out of their Olympic spot!

And she still beat them!

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Not necessarily. They can all see the clock, they're all very aware of what splits they're running, and they're all very aware of the implications of those splits.

Bawcom, by her own admission, just didn't have a good night. But Lisa Uhl, its impossible to say how that would have shaken out had Rogers been pushing for an A standard.

Its a moot point, Amy Hastings beat Rogers and has also posted an A standard.

[This message has been edited by TXAggie2011 (edited 6/27/2012 5:35p).]

I Thought Rogers won second place.

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I Thought Rogers won second place.

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She did get 2nd place.

Also since when is an Olympic trial a team sport?

There are pros and cons to the selection process this year no matter how you look at it. It makes sense for a country to send as many athletes as they can in any event, whether they won Trials or not. Is it right to tell a top-ranked athlete he cannot be an Olympian because one thing or another went wrong the day of Trials, whether it was performance-related or not? However, you can argue that the practice basically renders Trials pointless, then, because showing up on the day, winning it, but falling a little short of A-Standard really doesn't mean anything (given the presence of A-standard athletes). So why hold the meet in the first place?

As a recently retired thrower myself, what I take the most issue with is the rewrite in the rules saying that an athlete must achieve the A-Standard by the conclusion of their event final at the Trials in order to be considered for team selection. In previous years, they allowed the top finishers to chase the A-Standard (if they didn't already have it) all the way up until the IAAF/IOC selection deadline. If this were the case this year, then Sam and Natosha would have until July 8th to post A-Standards and, in turn, secure a spot on the team. I'm sure Natosha would happily jump a plane to a meet anywhere she can find one, and Sam is on his way to the NACAC Under 23 meet in Mexico next week. Seeing as Sam's javelin training started in 115 degree summers, I wouldn't put it past him to throw big down in the sun and heat. I bet the USOC would kick themselves if their recently-crowned Olympic Trials Champion goes and pitches an 83+ meter throw, and they have to leave him to his off-season training instead of putting him on a plane to London.

The javelin community (especially in the US) is really tight-knit; most of us know each other and we tend to cheer each other on. I don't think Hostetler, Furey, or Kinsley held back on Monday; it's not like them to do so. Sam just had a big day. The javelin is way more difficult than most people realize; consistency like Sam's is coveted and uncommon, especially given how conditions affect the event and the fact that there are no such thing as "wind-aided" marks in the throws. And the pros have the advantage over the college kids in that they can pick and choose what meets they want to attend, while the college kids follow the predetermined season schedule for their team.

It was a heck of a show to watch Monday, with Sam throwing bombs, the pros trying to catch up, and then Sam Crouser of Oregon coming up big on his last throw. It's not every day two college kids, 21 and 20 years old, edge the professionals, especially in a sport that generally has throwers at peak form in their late twenties. This is good news for US javelin -throwing and for Aggieland ... just think how cool it's going to be for Aggie track's start in the SEC to trot out Natosha and Sam.

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However, you can argue that the practice basically renders Trials pointless, then, because showing up on the day, winning it, but falling a little short of A-Standard really doesn't mean anything (given the presence of A-standard athletes). So why hold the meet in the first place?

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THIS.

The fact that there are a few events where there are only 2 or 3 A standards doesn't render the meet pointless.

Why do they need a reason to convene America's best athletes, anyways?

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In previous years, they allowed the top finishers to chase the A-Standard (if they didn't already have it) all the way up until the IAAF/IOC selection deadline.

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That's not true.

[This message has been edited by TXAggie2011 (edited 6/28/2012 4:16p).]

I can't believe this discussion has gone on this long, can we get back to talking about the actual trials and performances? Nothing about Gatlin's strong run in the 100m finals? Have you forgiven his previous positive PED test?

You wanna talk 100m? Okay, fine...

I can't watch it because my daughter won't stop laughing at Tyson Gay's lips.

There...we talked 100m.

I don't know about Gatlin, or anyone else who doped. Some more familiar with doping then me say "it only takes once."

Don't be a dick, Chase.

He got busted before and he's faster now? 2 + 2 = ?

If it's any consolation, he's probably not the only here (or in Jamaica) doing it...

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Don't be a dick, Chase.

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Call me what you want, but that wasn't my intention at all...it was my strongest memory because I couldn't even hear the TV. Gay runs so relaxed and my daughter had not seen that yet with a runner. Second most memorable thought was wishing that Dix would choose not to run because I was worried he was going to injure himself badly. The third was that it was awfully impressive of Gay to be back that quickly with the hip, especially given his age. Gatlin looked strong but I'm generally less than impressed with those having been proven cheaters.

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In previous years, they allowed the top finishers to chase the A-Standard (if they didn't already have it) all the way up until the IAAF/IOC selection deadline.

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That's not true.

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You are 100% wrong...this was something done previously.

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He got busted before and he's faster now? 2 + 2 = ?

If it's any consolation, he's probably not the only here (or in Jamaica) doing it...

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Jamaica has found a new substance...I have zero doubt about that.

[This message has been edited by Chase (edited 6/28/2012 4:34p).]

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He got busted before and he's faster now? 2 + 2 = ?

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He's ran a 9.77 right before he got busted, so technically not faster, but yeah, he's really close. Like I said, maybe it only takes once?

I think most of the Jamaicans are just really damn fast.

[This message has been edited by TXAggie2011 (edited 6/28/2012 4:50p).]

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He's ran a 9.77 right before he got busted, so technically not faster, but yeah, he's really close. Like I said, maybe it only takes once?

I think most of the Jamaicans are just really damn fast.

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I dunno man...that is such a drastic drop and so many of their sprinters have come along so much more quickly than they used to. Plus, he ran the damn thing so easily. Hell, he pulled up and smiled and breaks a short sprint record by almost a tenth of a second?

And Yohan Blake just kinda popped out of nowhere as well. Kinda makes you wonder.

One thing I am worried about is, looks like the rest of the world may also be catching up to us in the 400m. It's not the automatic lock for gold it used to be (although Merritt is damned good).

Blake has had a pretty standard progression. I wouldn't be surprised if anyone was on something, but he's not enemy number 1 for me.

That Dominican? kid is scary good at the 400.

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You are 100% wrong...this was something done previously.

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Poorly worded on my part, but the rule changed before the 2008 trials.

2000, when the A/B standards were first used, and 2004 nominated 4 candidates and they had a few weeks after the trials to hit the A and B standards. That is true.

[This message has been edited by TXAggie2011 (edited 6/28/2012 5:22p).]