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***Ms. Marvel (Disney+ series)***

21,116 Views | 249 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by redline248
The Porkchop Express
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Iman Vellani (Kamala) is a mega-watt star waiting to happen. My girls, who are both 10, are amped up for the new episode every Wednesday. While both of them have seen at least 50% of Infinity War, Endgame, and probably Civil War and GOTG, neither of them has ever been this much into any Marvel property, not even close. Her dad, mom, and older brother are all in the movie as well.

The Partition episode through my wife for a loop because the day it happened - August 15, 1947, is her dad's birthday. Weird coincidence.

I ghostwrote a number of books a couple of years ago for an Indian client who now unforunately lives in Ukraine, and a few of them touched on India's bloody road to independence. The disregard for human life by the British in how that came about is really staggering, and like many here have said, it's nothing I ever learned in school. Basically, "OK now you're independent, but here's one giant FU to the entire population as we walk out the door."

Definitely Not A Cop
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Am I understanding what happened correctly?

India wins independence. India decides it will partition off a portion of itself for Muslims to live freely*, to be called Pakistan. Muslim residents still living in India begin facing intensified discrimination and violence. The train scene in the show is representative of the millions of Muslims trying to escape India to Pakistan.

*Assuming the intent wasn't really to allow them to live freely, but to get rid of them.
jeffk
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Sort of. As I understand it, Partition was meant to create a majority Hindu India and a majority Muslim Pakistan (including what's now Bangladesh) but the intent wasn't that minority groups in those new nation would have to immigrate. The government didn't do a very good job predicting the amount of violence that would take place or the amount of people who would then flee. I think there were some mandatory relocations in Punjab, but that region became a bloodbath.
canadiaggie
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Definitely Not A Cop said:

Am I understanding what happened correctly?

India wins independence. India decides it will partition off a portion of itself for Muslims to live freely*, to be called Pakistan. Muslim residents still living in India begin facing intensified discrimination and violence. The train scene in the show is representative of the millions of Muslims trying to escape India to Pakistan.

*Assuming the intent wasn't really to allow them to live freely, but to get rid of them.

From someone who thinks "both sides" is usually a cop-out... this was very much a "both sides + also the British" problem.

India's independence movement began to fracture in the early 1900s on several ideological lines. The most important preface to the whole Indian subcontinent is that "Indian" and "Pakistani" nationalities are myths. They are modern creations. In reality, you have a patchwork of many, many cultures, which you can very broadly divide into North Indian/Indo-Aryan (Pakistan, Bangladesh, and the upper half of India) and South Indian/Dravidian. All these cultures have different languages, different cuisines, different folk tales and heroes.

Muslim leaders, especially Jinnah, became convinced that without any real national unifying force, Indians would rally around religious lines - people would start identifying less and less with their ethnic group and more and more around religious identities. Centrist Indian independence leaders like Gandhi and Nehru insisted that a secular India and a secular Indian identity was very much possible, but there were growing movements among Hindu Indians that were pushing a national identity based on adherence to the Dharmic faiths (Hinduism, Buddhism Jainism, sometimes Sikhism) and decried both major Indian Abrahamic faiths (mainly Islam but also Christianity) as foreign and unwanted - despite the fact that the Indian versions of Islam and Christianity are pretty unique and well-blended into Indian cultures, which is why Indians and Pakistanis living in the West tend to get along pretty well generally.

Eventually, Muhammad Ali Jinnah and the other Muslim leaders pushed for the creation of Pakistan, or at least a kind of federation system in India that would protect Muslim rights. In 1946, a plan was put forward that would divide India into many different states. These states would form 3 super-states with strong self-governance - these super states were basically the modern India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. The three super-states would together form a national union which would oversee free trade, currency, foreign affairs, and the army.

Jinnah and the Muslim leaders agreed to this plan because it provided satisfactory protections to the Muslim minority, and so did the Hindu leaders because it kept India together. However, the British were in a hurry to form an interim government and handed off power to Nehru and the centrist Indian National Congress. Nehru, although he wasn't biased against Muslims, was a leftist who wanted a strong federal state so he could quickly industrialize the country. The British bypassed the main Muslim party despite assuring Jinnah that they would have a seat in the government. Then, Nehru made a speech disavowing the three-part structure plan that was drawn up, stating that the states would not be grouped into the super-states (the quasi India/Pakistan/Bangladesh). Jinnah and the Muslim League saw this as a betrayal and a sign of things to come for India's Muslims and completely abandoned any attempt at unity, insisting that an independent nation for India's Muslims was necessary for survival.

As a result, Partition. The British bungled that as well, letting the former vassal Indian rulers decide which countries they wanted to join despite the fact that said rulers were not always the same religion as their subjects (this is the root of the Kashmir conflict). Millions of Muslims suddenly stuck in India had to leave their homes, but so did millions of Hindus and Sikhs who were now stuck in Pakistan. The show, because it focuses on a Muhajir Muslim family, showcases the Muslim side of the tragedy, but Hindus and Sikhs in Punjab and Sindh also suffered greatly.

I think the 1946 Plan might have been the subcontinent's best chance at unity. I don't really know if Jinnah was right that all of India's Muslims are one nation - the separation of Bangladesh and the struggles of Pakistan sort of attest to that - but I think he hit the nail on the head that eventually, India's identity would begin to take on more and more of a Hindu identity which could be to the detriment of Muslims.
jeffk
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Thanks for the primer! It was my understanding that the religious and cultural minority groups in the new nations weren't required to relocate by the govt but were basically forced into it by looming violence. Is that right or was it actually required?
canadiaggie
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jeffk said:

Thanks for the primer! It was my understanding that the religious and cultural minority groups in the new nations weren't required to relocate by the govt but were basically forced into it by looming violence. Is that right or was it actually required?
I believe there were some relocations mandated in Punjab but nowhere else. Could be wrong on that.
jeffk
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Thanks again!
rhutton125
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Much appreciated!

Who would have thought that the Ms. Marvel thread would be 10x more positive and interesting than the Thor: Love & Thunder thread?
Duncan Idaho
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I am glad this show flew below the faux outrage machine's radar. I mean it was as "woke" and as inclusive as anything else marvel/Disney has done but was, for the most part, completely ignored by any distractors.

I have no idea why that was the case but I am damn glad it happened.
swimmerbabe11
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probably just didn't watch it in the first place tbh
CapCityAg89
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Nothing new to add other than my daughter and I love this show. I've posted that previously but it's been a while since there's been anything this "family" on TV that has been so genuinely enjoyable.
GreasenUSA
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Duncan Idaho said:

I am glad this show flew below the faux outrage machine's radar. I mean it was as "woke" and as inclusive as anything else marvel/Disney has done but was, for the most part, completely ignored by any distractors.

I have no idea why that was the case but I am damn glad it happened.
It works because the show doesn't throw it in your face, or try to be woke for the sake of being woke. It shows strong family ties, which many cultures can relate to. Basically, it tells the truth, while seeking to tell a well-put-together, cohesive story.
GreasenUSA
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Duncan Idaho
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It was as in your face with the LGBT+ issues as Light-year, turning red and Baymax
GreasenUSA
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Duncan Idaho said:

It was as in your face with the LGBT+ issues as Light-year, turning red and Baymax
no it wasn't
Definitely Not A Cop
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Finally found the gif we have all been waiting for:

TCTTS
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Is Kamala the first new X-Man in the MCU?! Pretty sure they just went there.

Either way, that was super fun and, IMO, next to Loki, easily the second best finale of a Marvel Disney+ series yet.

Iman Vellani is going to be a star.

Also, I'm so glad they got rid of Danvers' hairstyle from Endgame. Larson looked so much better here, in whatever the heck was going on in that scene.
TCTTS
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I keep thinking about this and find it hilarious that the final (non post-credit) scene of Ms. freaking Marvel, a show hardly anyone watched, relatively speaking, just planted a pretty big flag and pointed us toward the future of the MCU more than any phase four movie so far. The finale of Loki birthed the multiverse and now the finale of Ms. Marvel just birthed the X-Men, while the phase four movies have hardly done anything in terms of the big-picture, overall MCU story. Yes, Peter Parker has essentially been erased, Wanda is "dead," etc, but I consider those character developments more than plot developments. Anyway, I don't know if this approach is super cool/ballsy or super dumb. Either way, it at least makes me laugh.
TCTTS
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So apparently in the comics Kamala had a latent *Inhuman* gene as opposed to a latent mutant gene, and this thread is a nice little explainer of why the likely retcon. It sounds like the potential scenario could be that Inhumans exist in another universe (hence Black Bolt in DS2), while mutants exist (in place of Inhumans, essentially) in this universe…

TCTTS
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Honestly, deep down, I was still holding out hope that Disney/Marvel's new cinematic take on the X-Men would be completely separate from the MCU. I basically wanted them in their own world, where they felt more unique, and there wasn't already this giant, in-world history of other superheroes to contend with.

That said, given the treading water nature of phase four of the MCU so far, it definitely needs a shot in the arm, and I can think of no better shot than introducing the X-Men into the current story. Still, I'm so curious to see how they pull it off, considering the core conceit of the X-Men is that they're freaks/shunned/different from everyone else. So in a world where everyone already loves superheroes, how will that dynamic exist?
TCTTS
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redline248
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Yeah, I was pretty surprised by that, but loved the xmen theme drop. There are a lot of ways they could do it. Thanos's or Tony's snap could have released the energy that starts the mutations.

Even if silly at times, I loved this show so much.

And yeah, wtf was going on at the end with Danvers teleporting in?
bluefire579
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TCTTS said:

So apparently in the comics Kamala had a latent *Inhuman* gene as opposed to a latent mutant gene, and this thread is a nice little explainer of why the likely retcon. It sounds like the potential scenario could be that Inhumans exist in another universe (hence Black Bolt in DS2), while mutants exist (in place of Inhumans, essentially) in this universe…


The first Inhumans standalone comic was released in the 1970s and they were introduced several years before that. Maybe that was the justification for making the new Ms Marvel Inhuman in the comics, or introducing Quake, Yo-Yo, etc. as Inhumans, but they're certainly not a creation due to the Fox film rights.

In the MCU, are they even canon? It seems like Agents of Shield and Inhumans were pretty much erased
rhutton125
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Marvel nerd clarification incoming:


1. Inhumans (Kamala in the comics) are different than Mutants, but in a pretty lame way. You have the Inhuman royal family (Black Bolt, etc.) who are kind of neat, and then some inhumans across the globe who are just descendants or humans who were experimented on by the Kree, or have some Kree ancestry.

They rose in prominence around ~2015 when Disney didn't have the rights to the X-Men, so the comics really started downplaying X-Men and Fantastic Four (Fox properties) and started promoting the Inhumans as an X-Men alternative, which I hear nobody really was interested in. This is also probably why Agents of Shield had this inhuman outbreak - mutants technically belonged to Fox, and couldn't be used.

For all intents and purposes, the only difference between non-royal Inhumans and mutants was a now-outdated comic book mandate due to the old movie studio conflicts. If Kamala has natural powers, it makes more sense to make it a mutation than whatever non-royal Inhuman nonsense.

2. This doesn't make Kamala the first X-Man

I mean, it could. The cartoon theme plays. But like Kamala says, it's just another label. She's not an X-Man until she's recruited by Charles Xavier.

She is, however, a mutant - which will make her subject to the eventual mutant-fearing hysteria that all mutants face. But she already faces some of that irrational fear and hatred as a superpowered teen / a Pakistani woman.

3. What was up with Captain Marvel at the end?

Theory on my part but Kamala's bangle may be one of the "nega bands." In the comics, original Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) was once linked with teen sidekick Rick Jones via the nega bands, and they temporary shared a body. One would be stuck in the Negative Zone in a kind of purgatory, while the other one was free to do whatever on Earth. My guess is, Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) somehow got linked with Kamala, so what you see at the post-credits is them body-swapping. This may be a scene directly from the Marvels, or something we'll see explained via Carol finding the other bangle and accidentally swapping places, or something like that.
Decay
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I really enjoyed this series. And yes, I thought they did a great job handling some surprisingly mature and complicated themes/events. I applaud the maturity and skillful use all around and felt it really did help the show to tell a better story.

And at the same time, it was fun! Kid friendly but I don't think it's a bad thing... If anything it makes the show more approachable and keeps the mood upbeat. Even though I think the MCU works hard to strike a more varied and less dour atmosphere than like, DC or whatever, this was still notably different.

And like it's been mentioned, it's crazy how they just kinda tagged this low stakes show for the biggest mutant reveal in the MCU. And it does really make me excited for The Marvels. Is that considered Cap Marvel 2?
TCTTS
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Decay said:

I really enjoyed this series. And yes, I thought they did a great job handling some surprisingly mature and complicated themes/events. I applaud the maturity and skillful use all around and felt it really did help the show to tell a better story.

And at the same time, it was fun! Kid friendly but I don't think it's a bad thing... If anything it makes the show more approachable and keeps the mood upbeat. Even though I think the MCU works hard to strike a more varied and less dour atmosphere than like, DC or whatever, this was still notably different.

And like it's been mentioned, it's crazy how they just kinda tagged this low stakes show for the biggest mutant reveal in the MCU. And it does really make me excited for The Marvels. Is that considered Cap Marvel 2?

Yep. Apparently a team-up movie with Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, and Monica Rambeau.
Madmarttigan
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Maybe Ms. Marvel will enough charm and charisma to make up for the brick wall that is Larson.
Formerly tv1113
TCTTS
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I can't believe I'm saying this, but I thought Larson actually showed more life/acting chops in that brief, 10-second cameo than she has in any other appearance so far, to the point where it actually kind of sort of gave me hope?
bearamedic99
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Are we not doing spoiler tags? A lot from the finale has been discussed here. I'm going to tag mine, just in case.

I just want to add, it felt nice when

Kamala was revealing her secret identity to her family (though her mother had already spilled the beans).

As far as I can remember, we have not had any similar enthusiasms from the hero's family. Either the hero has no family or like hot aunt May, states things like WTF?

Overall, this show exceeded my expectations.

And our boy "Brian" seems to be a boy genius beyond most geniuses, plus he seems to have access to a lot of high tech testing beyond him scavenging for tech. Have they ever stated his last name? It would be a funny add if his name was Reed "everybody calls me Bruno" Richards.
TCTTS
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We never use spoiler tags for weekly series. Only for binge series, where multiple episodes are released at once, and not everyone is watching at the same pace. But if it's a show that airs one episode per week, on a certain day, it's pretty well established that you shouldn't click in the thread until you've seen the episode for yourself.
Definitely Not A Cop
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TCTT's car:

BenFiasco14
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I probably won't watch this show for awhile, but I am definitely interested in this X Men reveal.

Is this variation of Ms Marvel also an established X Men in the comics or something (I.e., Rouge)? Or is this something new?

Can someone tell me what Captain Marvels purpose was at the end?

ETA: yeah, I also can't stand Larson. I have zero hyper for the marvels movie, unless it's doubling as an X Men intro
CNN is an enemy of the state and should be treated as such.
GreasenUSA
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BenFiasco14 said:

I probably won't watch this show for awhile, but I am definitely interested in this X Men reveal.

Is this variation of Ms Marvel also an established X Men in the comics or something (I.e., Rouge)? Or is this something new?

Can someone tell me what Captain Marvels purpose was at the end?

ETA: yeah, I also can't stand Larson. I have zero hyper for the marvels movie, unless it's doubling as an X Men intro
There is no X-Men reveal, yet. Just a "mutant" reveal.
GreasenUSA
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Well that series far exceeded my expectations. It's right up there with Loki as my favorite of the Disney+ MCU shows.
Saxsoon
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TCTTS said:

Is Kamala the first new X-Man in the MCU?! Pretty sure they just went there.

Either way, that was super fun and, IMO, next to Loki, easily the second best finale of a Marvel Disney+ series yet.

Iman Vellani is going to be a star.

Also, I'm so glad they got rid of Danvers' hairstyle from Endgame. Larson looked so much better here, in whatever the heck was going on in that scene.
With that Xmen 97 riff, they sure ****ing did
 
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