No worries. It's been discussed some. I personally lean towards neither of these two being Sauron.KCup17 said:
So I'm thinking that either Adar or Halbrand are Sauron. Gut tells me Adar but Halbrand being a good metal smith as well as his comments about darkness have me 2nd guessing.
I started watching well after the thread started so apologies if this has already been discussed.
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One small note: the writers for this show cannot source from The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales.
I get frustrations, but you're holding them to a standard they cannot achieve because of limitations from the Tolkien Estate.
That's part of the issue - the Tolkien estate doesn't want to work with anyone that wants to tell these stories. They didn't even really like the Peter Jackson LOTR movies.
I'm taking about this show alone, not the rest of Hollywood.
I get frustrations, but you're holding them to a standard they cannot achieve because of limitations from the Tolkien Estate.
That's part of the issue - the Tolkien estate doesn't want to work with anyone that wants to tell these stories. They didn't even really like the Peter Jackson LOTR movies.
I'm taking about this show alone, not the rest of Hollywood.
Chipotlemonger said:No worries. It's been discussed some. I personally lean towards neither of these two being Sauron.KCup17 said:
So I'm thinking that either Adar or Halbrand are Sauron. Gut tells me Adar but Halbrand being a good metal smith as well as his comments about darkness have me 2nd guessing.
I started watching well after the thread started so apologies if this has already been discussed.
Agree with you. I believe we haven't seen Sauron yet.
I know that. The choices they have made that I find odd/unnecessary are not story related.Beat40 said:
One small note: the writers for this show cannot source from The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales.
I get frustrations, but you're holding them to a standard they cannot achieve because of limitations from the Tolkien Estate.
That's part of the issue - the Tolkien estate doesn't want to work with anyone that wants to tell these stories. They didn't even really like the Peter Jackson LOTR movies.
I'm taking about this show alone, not the rest of Hollywood.
They do have quite a bit of story framework available in the appendices to LOTR.
Yeah, we've noted that before, and I do try to keep that in mind.Beat40 said:
One small note: the writers for this show cannot source from The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales.
I get frustrations, but you're holding them to a standard they cannot achieve because of limitations from the Tolkien Estate.
That's part of the issue - the Tolkien estate doesn't want to work with anyone that wants to tell these stories. They didn't even really like the Peter Jackson LOTR movies.
I'm taking about this show alone, not the rest of Hollywood.
That being said, that's one of my biggest beefs with the show. Look, you can't tell Galadriel's story as written in the books. You can't tell Elrond's story as in the books. But you CAN use the amazingly beautiful world that Tolkien created, along with the foundations laid by Jackson and co. to tell stories that are in this world without requiring those specific storylines. Look at Arondir. PERFECT example of what they should have focused on doing. And if you just HAVE to have those big name characters, a cameo here and there wouldn't twist too many knickers out of shape. This way you have much more freedom to tell a story without the purists being all "GALADRIEL DIDN'T BEHAVE THIS WAY" or "THIS IS COMPLETELY OUT OF ORDER!!!"
I'm enjoying the show (for the most part), and I've been somewhat successful at keeping my brain from losing its marbles over the differences between this and the books. My biggest gripe really has more to do with how they're going about certain things than anything else.
Beat40 said:Chipotlemonger said:No worries. It's been discussed some. I personally lean towards neither of these two being Sauron.KCup17 said:
So I'm thinking that either Adar or Halbrand are Sauron. Gut tells me Adar but Halbrand being a good metal smith as well as his comments about darkness have me 2nd guessing.
I started watching well after the thread started so apologies if this has already been discussed.
Agree with you. I believe we haven't seen Sauron yet.
Yeah, you don't reveal the big bad right away. We weren't teased with Thanos until the post credits of the first Avengers movie. Its enough to already know Sauron is behind the curtain for now, but would be good to tease him at a season finale, maybe not even till the 2nd one.
I think a lot of people forget The Silmarillion is not written by Tolkien, and not really even a book to begin with. His son cobbled it together from a bunch of different manuscripts and incomplete stories, so it's probably unfair to hold it up as gospel like it was exactly what Tolkien wrote. And hell, he changed his own history himself at times, ie. the stories of the blue wizards.
I think it's best to just forget about the source material for a while and just see what they do with this show. This shouldn't be judged as an adaptation, like the LOTR or Hobbit movies (or any other fantasy adaptation), imo.
I think it's best to just forget about the source material for a while and just see what they do with this show. This shouldn't be judged as an adaptation, like the LOTR or Hobbit movies (or any other fantasy adaptation), imo.
It is a compilation of stories written by Tolkien and edited by Christopher. It is absolutely written by Tolkien.Brian Earl Spilner said:
I think a lot of people forget The Silmarillion is not written by Tolkien, and not really even a book to begin with. His son cobbled it together from a bunch of different manuscripts and incomplete stories, so it's probably unfair to hold it up as gospel like it was exactly what Tolkien wrote. And hell, he changed his own history himself at times, ie. the stories of the blue wizards.
I think it's best to just forget about the source material for a while and just see what they do with this show.
You knew exactly what I meant. It's right there in my post.
Plus, Christopher added in a lot of his own writing to fill in gaps. So it's unfair to call JRR Tolkien the sole author as in most books.
Do y'all think we will know when he has made his appearance or will he be revealed as a character already introduced?Beat40 said:Chipotlemonger said:No worries. It's been discussed some. I personally lean towards neither of these two being Sauron.KCup17 said:
So I'm thinking that either Adar or Halbrand are Sauron. Gut tells me Adar but Halbrand being a good metal smith as well as his comments about darkness have me 2nd guessing.
I started watching well after the thread started so apologies if this has already been discussed.
Agree with you. I believe we haven't seen Sauron yet.
They don't have the rights to the Simarillion anyway so I am not sure why it matters, but to act like Tolkien didn't write this is disingenuous.Brian Earl Spilner said:
You knew exactly what I meant. It's right there in my post.
Tolkien 100% wrote the appendices that Amazon does have the rights to and it is silly just to ignore them when watching.
I specifically said The Silmarillion. Was not talking about the appendices, which are 100% Tolkien.
And I bring it up because it's been discussed quite a bit on this thread.
And I bring it up because it's been discussed quite a bit on this thread.
Why are you referencing the Simarillion then? It has no relevance to the show.Brian Earl Spilner said:
I specifically said The Silmarillion. Was not talking about the appendices, which are 100% Tolkien.
It was brought up a few pages back.
I think it's fair to point out that The Silmarillion and the other collected writings and appendices weren't developed by JRRT in the same way The Hobbit or LOTR were. So a lot of the little inconsistencies that normally would have been ironed out before publication weren't ever addressed.
I've really enjoyed the series myself, but also I'm not as stringent of a believer that source material has to be followed to the letter of the written page when developed for a different medium. Would I have made some different choices here or there? Probably so, but I think they're doing a fine job of taking some pretty disjointed and fantastical literature and getting it to make sense to a broad audience in a visual-heavy way.
I've really enjoyed the series myself, but also I'm not as stringent of a believer that source material has to be followed to the letter of the written page when developed for a different medium. Would I have made some different choices here or there? Probably so, but I think they're doing a fine job of taking some pretty disjointed and fantastical literature and getting it to make sense to a broad audience in a visual-heavy way.
I think Adar is the Mouth of Sauron (or eventually becomes it). Just throwing that out there.
I like that.
Cromagnum said:
I think Adar is the Mouth of Sauron (or eventually becomes it). Just throwing that out there.
Interesting thought. I like that too.
Lol, brought up by yourself, point in fact.Quote:
They want to make money. Above all this is their motivation. Their primary audience is not those who grew up reading the Silmarillion and the Unfinished Tales and poured over the minutia of Tolkiens writings, etc.
And in what context? I'll give you a hint, it had nothing to do with the content of this show.Brian Earl Spilner said:Lol, brought up by yourself, point in fact.Quote:
They want to make money. Above all this is their motivation. Their primary audience is not those who grew up reading the Silmarillion and the Unfinished Tales and poured over the minutia of Tolkiens writings, etc.
You brought it up as gatekeeping for the show, like something they had to stick to to do right by Tolkien fans.
And to reiterate my point that you seem to be trying to argue against, it's not even a book that was entirely authored by Tolkien. (It was not a simple 'cut and paste' job like the cover of the book would have you believe.)
And to reiterate my point that you seem to be trying to argue against, it's not even a book that was entirely authored by Tolkien. (It was not a simple 'cut and paste' job like the cover of the book would have you believe.)
Nope, I was using the sales numbers of the Simarillion and the Unfinished Tales to highlight how few "hardcore" fans there are vs the opening weekend of the Hobbit. Purely focused on potential market and who hollywood was more likely to focus on.Brian Earl Spilner said:
You brought it up as gatekeeping for the show, like something they had to stick to to do right by Tolkien fans.
And to reiterate my point that you seem to be trying to argue against, it's not even a book that was entirely authored by Tolkien. (It was not a simple 'cut and paste' job like the cover of the book would have you believe.)
I was never expecting this to be an adaptation of the Simarillion nor was I expecting anything faithful to the appendices.
I'm of course not at all implying that hardcore fans don't matter - especially after our arguments yesterday - but as someone who knows absolutely nothing about the history of this world or The Silmarillion or any of that, strictly as a TV watcher and someone who knows a thing or two about writing for TV, I can confidentially say that everything so far about the story they've chosen to tell checks out for me. Every character's motivations make sense, all the stakes are clear, the dynamics are super interesting, the pacing feels right, etc. Again, I'm not saying that it couldn't have been better if they had chosen to be more faithful to whatever source material. I can only say that whatever decisions they've made in terms of veering off whatever path, it all checks out and is absolutely working for me, someone who's coming at this fresh, with zero baggage. So they're at least doing *something* right.
That's why I am still watching. It is a good fantasy show. It could just as well exist in a fresh universe and not lose anything.
And to BES' point, there's a reason the other Tolkein stuff is considered "lore". It's not definitive or final. Nice to read I am sure, but you can watch all of the LOTR and completely ignore all of it and be fine. This show is just another sample of that.powerbelly said:
That's why I am still watching. It is a good fantasy show. It could just as well exist in a fresh universe and not lose anything.
powerbelly said:
That's why I am still watching. It is a good fantasy show. It could just as well exist in a fresh universe and not lose anything.
In a fresh, non-Tolkien, universe would it have the same draw with audiences or rich connections to an established world? As much as some say it's departed from source material, there's more instances of existing connections to that material than departures. I've read everything Tolkien's written and definitely tuned in because of my enjoyment of his work. Now that I'm in, I enjoy the show for itself, but without the references to places and things that I already knew and liked, I don't think I would have tuned in (at least not from the premier anyway) and I don't think I would be liking it nearly as much as I do presently.
Cromagnum said:
I think Adar is the Mouth of Sauron (or eventually becomes it). Just throwing that out there.
A guy who has said maybe one line in three episodes seems like a perfect mouth for him.
Did Sauron create the orcs in the books? Just wondering why they would call this guy father.
No.Definitely Not A Cop said:
Did Sauron create the orcs in the books? Just wondering why they would call this guy father.
Definitely Not A Cop said:Cromagnum said:
I think Adar is the Mouth of Sauron (or eventually becomes it). Just throwing that out there.
A guy who has said maybe one line in three episodes seems like a perfect mouth for him.
Did Sauron create the orcs in the books? Just wondering why they would call this guy father.
Morgoth created them I thought?
Adar made sense to me as the mouth (maybe future mouth) as it is one of Sauron's lieutenants, so needs to be someon4 that can survive until the battle at the end of the 3rd Age. A fallen elf (if that's what he currently is) might do the trick.
I'm pretty sure you're right. Morgoth (or Melkor) made the Orcs.
Yep. The question that Tolkien never settled is exactly how Morgoth created them.KCup17 said:
I'm pretty sure you're right. Morgoth (or Melkor) made the Orcs.
powerbelly said:Yep. The question that Tolkien never settled is exactly how Morgoth created them.KCup17 said:
I'm pretty sure you're right. Morgoth (or Melkor) made the Orcs.
He stole Adar's work, duh.
The big-budget The Lord of the Rings: #RingsofPower had a big opening weekend on Nielsen’s SVOD charts, outdrawing #HouseoftheDragon among streaming users https://t.co/NK5H7eB9pe
— The Hollywood Reporter (@THR) September 29, 2022
I've heard and read various things. One I have heard is that he captured Elves and transformed them by means of torture and other crafts into Orcs.powerbelly said:Yep. The question that Tolkien never settled is exactly how Morgoth created them.KCup17 said:
I'm pretty sure you're right. Morgoth (or Melkor) made the Orcs.
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