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Fenrir
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In reply to MBAR • 12:43p, 11/19/23
MBAR said:
It's so ridiculous that a bunch of the same men on here who argue that representation doesn't matter so marvel should ignore it also make the argument that men won't go see a movie because women are the leads.



Which poster has made both of those arguments? TC is the only one I've seen say that adding men would have helped and he is definitely in the "representation matters" crowd.

I'm burned out on all marvel stuff. Haven't managed to see gotg3 or Loki season 2 despite enjoying the prior entries greatly.
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maroon barchetta
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In reply to Fenrir • 12:46p, 11/19/23
It's almost time for an annual viewing of the GOTG Christmas special!
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Quad Dog
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In reply to MBAR • 2:02p, 11/19/23
AG
MBAR said:
It's so ridiculous that a bunch of the same men on here who argue that representation doesn't matter so marvel should ignore it also make the argument that men won't go see a movie because women are the leads.


I don't completely agree to the idea of needing to cast men to get an audience. But the points about featuring characters introduced on unwatched Disney+ shows contribute. Also I think not having bankable A tier stars. Brie Larson is pretty and a good actress, but she's made some odd choices after her Oscar and never made the jump to bankable star imo, meanwhile I don't think I know the name of any of the other leads.
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TCTTS
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In reply to rhutton125 • 6:21p, 11/19/23
AG
rhutton125 said:
On the plus side, 2024 only has one MCU movie and it's kinda non-MCU - Deadpool 3. I think DCEU is taking the year off too.

The downside is that Sony is cranking out 3 more next year, and there are some real uninteresting Disney+ shows to trickle out.

Surely this weekend is rock bottom for Marvel, and yeah, they desperately need to take a break. But I'm afraid next year's superhero offerings across the board are just going to further erode interest in the genre. We need NO superhero fare for a while, and then come back strong in 2025. But instead, in 2024, we're getting...


MCU

Deadpool 3
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6263850/
July 26, 2024

Echo
Season 1 (5 Episodes)
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13966962/
January 10, 2024
Disney+

Agatha: Darkhold Diaries
Season 1
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt15571732/
2024 TBA
Disney+

Ironheart
Season 1
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13623126/
2024 TBA
Disney+

Wonder Man
Season 1
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt21066182/
2024 TBA
Disney+


DC

Joker: Folie Deux
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11315808/
October 4, 2024

The Penguin
Limited Series
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt15435876/
2024 TBA
Max


SONY

Madame Web
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt11057302/
February 14, 2024

Kraven the Hunter
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8790086/
August 30, 2024

Venom 3
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt16366836/
November 8, 2024


Deadpool will make a billion, and The Penguin series will likely be good, but otherwise 2024 looks to be the worst superhero year since the early-to-mid-'00s. However, 2025 looks to be another banner/banger year, which I feel would play a lot better if we had more a breather next year...


Captain America: Brave New World
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14513804/
February 14, 2025

Fantastic Four
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10676052/
May 2, 2025

Superman: Legacy
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt24484330/
July 11, 2025

Thunderbolts
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt20969586/
July 25, 2025

The Batman: Part II
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt19850008/
October 3, 2025

Blade
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10671440/
November 7, 2025
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Brian Earl Spilner
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6:35p, 11/19/23
AG
Call me a pessimist but I don't think Deadpool gets anywhere near $1B.
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maroon barchetta
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In reply to Brian Earl Spilner • 6:36p, 11/19/23
Agreed.

The R rating already reduces the customer base considerably.
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jokershady
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6:41p, 11/19/23
AG
Deadpool might not get a billion worldwide but it'll be the highest grossing film in phase 5 and possibly the second highest since No Way Home combining phase 4 and 5….could possibly surpass it…..

Time will tell cause i am also a little sceptical on how things went down with the strikes while filming
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TCTTS
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In reply to Brian Earl Spilner • 6:52p, 11/19/23
AG
Brian Earl Spilner said:
Call me a pessimist but I don't think Deadpool gets anywhere near $1B.

- Ryan Reynolds back as Deadpool.

- Hugh Jackman back as Wolverine.

- Rumored appearances by a number of popular Fox X-Men characters, some of them appearing in more than cameo capacity.

- Owen Wilson as Mobius, Miss Minutes, and the TVA rumored to play a part in the plot.

- Taylor Swift credibly rumored to play Dazzler (she brought Reynolds, Jackman, and the movie's director to a Chiefs/Giants game a few weeks ago).

- Other notable MCU characters will likely make appearances.

- Looks to provide some of the funniest, most irreverent commentary yet on the overall state of superhero movies, the multiverse, studio involvement, etc. Will likely feel very zeitgeisty in that sense.

Even with an R-rating, if good, I don't see how it doesn't do a billion. Especially with such a lack of similar competition next summer. Heck, Taylor Swift and Jackman back as Wolverine (finally in yellow spandex) might be enough alone to get it over the hump.
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jokershady
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In reply to TCTTS • 7:04p, 11/19/23
AG
TCTTS said:
Brian Earl Spilner said:
Call me a pessimist but I don't think Deadpool gets anywhere near $1B.

- Ryan Reynolds back as Deadpool.

- Hugh Jackman back as Wolverine.

- Rumored appearances by a number of popular Fox X-Men characters, some of them appearing in more than cameo capacity.

- Owen Wilson as Morbius, Miss Minutes, and the TVA rumored to play a part in the plot.

- Taylor Swift credibly rumored to play Dazzler (she brought Reynolds, Jackman, and the movie's director to a Chiefs/Giants game a few weeks ago).

- Other notable MCU characters will likely make appearances.

- Looks to provide some of the funniest, most irreverent commentary yet on the overall state of superhero movies, the multiverse, studio involvement, etc. Will likely feel very zeitgeisty in that sense.

Even with an R-rating, if good, I don't see how it doesn't do a billion. Especially with such a lack of similar competition next summer. Heck, Taylor Swift and Jackman back as Wolverine (finally in yellow spandex) might be enough alone to get it over the hump.
really hope you're right! This'll be a movie my wife and I buy tickets for crazy early!!!!
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MBAR
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In reply to Quad Dog • 7:15p, 11/19/23
AG
Quad Dog said:
MBAR said:
It's so ridiculous that a bunch of the same men on here who argue that representation doesn't matter so marvel should ignore it also make the argument that men won't go see a movie because women are the leads.


I don't completely agree to the idea of needing to cast men to get an audience. But the points about featuring characters introduced on unwatched Disney+ shows contribute. Also I think not having bankable A tier stars. Brie Larson is pretty and a good actress, but she's made some odd choices after her Oscar and never made the jump to bankable star imo, meanwhile I don't think I know the name of any of the other leads.


I don't disagree with this at all and don't think the main reason the movie bombed was because it features women. I think that there's a variety of reasons that played into it. But you can see all over the thread that there are people blaming this on feminism etc and because marvel doesn't care about its male audience. I think there's a contingent of men that feel that way but I don't in any way think that's the driving force. But the fact that the same people who make those claims are people who regularly complain when marvel casts people they feel as some kind of affirmative action move is incredibly ironic.
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Fenrir
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In reply to MBAR • 7:19p, 11/19/23
MBAR said:
But the fact that the same people who make those claims are people who regularly complain when marvel casts people they feel as some kind of affirmative action move is incredibly ironic.


This has not happened in this thread at least so repeating this claim seems odd.
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MBAR
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In reply to Fenrir • 7:21p, 11/19/23
AG
Fenrir said:
MBAR said:
It's so ridiculous that a bunch of the same men on here who argue that representation doesn't matter so marvel should ignore it also make the argument that men won't go see a movie because women are the leads.



Which poster has made both of those arguments? TC is the only one I've seen say that adding men would have helped and he is definitely in the "representation matters" crowd.

I'm burned out on all marvel stuff. Haven't managed to see gotg3 or Loki season 2 despite enjoying the prior entries greatly.


To be fair, it's actually not in this thread much but in the general MCU thread and I mistakenly conflated posts from that thread with this one and that's on me. That said, the point stands that there's a lot of what I mentioned in that thread.

People just love to use box office flops like this to push their agenda even when it doesn't make logical sense.
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MBAR
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In reply to Fenrir • 7:23p, 11/19/23
AG
Fenrir said:
MBAR said:
But the fact that the same people who make those claims are people who regularly complain when marvel casts people they feel as some kind of affirmative action move is incredibly ironic.


This has not happened in this thread at least so repeating this claim seems odd.


You're definitely right but as I said in my other reply to you I think the general point still stands given what has been posted in the general MCU thread.
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TCTTS
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In reply to MBAR • 7:30p, 11/19/23
AG
I think both things can be true at once...

The Marvels, Birds of Prey, etc failed - in part - because there isn't an audience for mostly-female-led superhero movies, where men take a far back seat. At least, to date, we have yet to see proof to the contrary, a fact which I am simply pointing out.

And yet, the people who endlessly complain about wokeness and feminism taking over the genre, Star Wars, etc can still be morons, who over-exaggerate how much of an "epidemic" that kind of stuff has become. The Marvels, Birds of Prey, etc didn't fail because they were woke, feminist nonsense (which neither are), they failed for a number of reasons, one of them having to do with the fact that women simply don't seem to like or attend these movies nearly as much as men.
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Quad Dog
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In reply to TCTTS • 7:49p, 11/19/23
AG
I realized what was missing and what would draw women... the MCU obligatory shirtless beefcake shot in every previous movie.
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jokershady
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In reply to Quad Dog • 7:51p, 11/19/23
AG
Quad Dog said:
I realized what was missing and what would draw women... the MCU obligatory shirtless beefcake shot in every previous movie.
don't forget the bat nipples and bat butts from Joel Schumacher's Batman films….
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Sex Panther
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In reply to TCTTS • 8:07p, 11/19/23
AG
Taylor Swift is in it??? I personally hate that, but that's a brilliant move... this movie will make 2 billion now.

Her cult would watch her fart for 2 hours and cry wild tears about how lifechanging it was
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maroon barchetta
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In reply to TCTTS • 8:08p, 11/19/23
Quote:
The Marvels, Birds of Prey, etc didn't fail because they were woke, feminist nonsense (which neither are), they failed for a number of reasons, one of them having to do with the fact that women simply don't seem to like or attend these movies nearly as much as men.


So the Bill Burr clip I referenced earlier about women failing the WNBA applies to The Marvels.

Women failed this woman-centric movie.
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TCTTS
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In reply to Sex Panther • 8:09p, 11/19/23
AG
Not confirmed yet by any means, but heavily rumored. And taking the two leads + the director to her box at her boyfriend's football game only fanned the flames.
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TCTTS
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In reply to maroon barchetta • 8:12p, 11/19/23
AG
True, but it seems that more women are asking for equal pay/attention in sports than there are women asking for female-led superhero movies. In other words, I don't know who was "demanding" this movie who then didn't show up.
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Sex Panther
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In reply to TCTTS • 8:12p, 11/19/23
AG
I'm surprised I didn't put that together. Since I'm a movie dork, I noticed Shawn Levy right away when they all went to the Chiefs game. It all makes sense... especially since Taylor does absolutely nothing without a PR slant behind it.
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TCTTS
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In reply to Sex Panther • 8:13p, 11/19/23
AG
Exactly. It felt 100% engineered.
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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to MBAR • 8:42p, 11/19/23
AG
MBAR said:
It's so ridiculous that a bunch of the same men on here who argue that representation doesn't matter so marvel should ignore it also make the argument that men won't go see a movie because women are the leads.



The problem isn't that men won't go see a movie because women are the leads, it's that no one will see it because women are the leads. A movie doesn't bomb this hard because men aren't seeing it. It bombs this hard because no one is seeing it.

This is proof that representation doesn't, in fact, matter. If it did, women would be seeing this in droves. They're not. If representation mattered, it would put butts in seats and sell tickets, but it doesn't.
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TCTTS
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 8:51p, 11/19/23
AG
ABATTBQ11 said:
MBAR said:
It's so ridiculous that a bunch of the same men on here who argue that representation doesn't matter so marvel should ignore it also make the argument that men won't go see a movie because women are the leads.



The problem isn't that men won't go see a movie because women are the leads, it's that no one will see it because women are the leads. A movie doesn't bomb this hard because men aren't seeing it. It bombs this hard because no one is seeing it.

This is proof that representation doesn't, in fact, matter. If it did, women would be seeing this in droves. They're not. If representation mattered, it would put butts in seats and sell tickets, but it doesn't.


Dude, come on. This is "proof" of nothing in that regard. Sometimes representation matters more to certain people, sometimes it doesn't. All this proves is that it's a crap shoot. In this case, it didn't matter. But in the case of, say, Black Panther or even Shang Chi, it did matter. It all depends on multiple factors, the context, a combination of race, sex, genres, etc. To make such a reductive, blanket statement accomplishes nothing.
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rhutton125
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9:00p, 11/19/23
AG
When people say "representation matters," I don't think they're referring to box office. I read so many stories about people crying during Ms Marvel because they'd never felt so seen, or like they were seeing their own families on the TV screen. That doesn't mean all brown people should watch it, or will follow the cast to their next film, etc.
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TCTTS
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In reply to rhutton125 • 9:01p, 11/19/23
AG
Well said.
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swimmerbabe11
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9:21p, 11/19/23
also *when* the movie comes out is important too.
Paul Rudd was wildly popular as antman but #3 sucked. thor 3 was meh. I'm of the unpopular opinion that got 3 was just meh too. capt marvel 1 was terribly unpopular.

I only went to theaters for this because I did really love Ms marvel and wanted to see her in her own movie. if you are burnt out because of all the bad content, then you might not risk on this. lots of people gave up on the streaming content.

add in the writers strike and you had a perfect storm of bad publicity.

if it was 3 years ago and you slid in scarjo instead of capt marvel, this probably would have done decently well.
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MBAR
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 9:27p, 11/19/23
AG
ABATTBQ11 said:
MBAR said:
It's so ridiculous that a bunch of the same men on here who argue that representation doesn't matter so marvel should ignore it also make the argument that men won't go see a movie because women are the leads.



The problem isn't that men won't go see a movie because women are the leads, it's that no one will see it because women are the leads. A movie doesn't bomb this hard because men aren't seeing it. It bombs this hard because no one is seeing it.

This is proof that representation doesn't, in fact, matter. If it did, women would be seeing this in droves. They're not. If representation mattered, it would put butts in seats and sell tickets, but it doesn't.
"Men won't go see movies without men"
"This is proof who is in a movie doesn't matter"

Amazing
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Fenrir
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In reply to swimmerbabe11 • 9:31p, 11/19/23
In reality Ms marvel has a lot going against it.

Super hero fatigue
Mcu has become convoluted and too large. Most people simply don't have the time or ****s to give to keep up which means they are likely to pull out entirely. Honestly some parallels here with issues that the comic industry runs into sometimes.
No other known names in it besides brie
Brie and Ms marvel came across a bit like a Mary Sue in her movie and avengers endgame
People just seem pickier in general about what they go see now. Movies are expensive trips for a family and nobody wants to waste money in an already tight economy.
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MBAR
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In reply to TCTTS • 9:32p, 11/19/23
AG
TCTTS said:
I think both things can be true at once...

The Marvels, Birds of Prey, etc failed - in part - because there isn't an audience for mostly-female-led superhero movies, where men take a far back seat. At least, to date, we have yet to see proof to the contrary, a fact which I am simply pointing out.

And yet, the people who endlessly complain about wokeness and feminism taking over the genre, Star Wars, etc can still be morons, who over-exaggerate how much of an "epidemic" that kind of stuff has become. The Marvels, Birds of Prey, etc didn't fail because they were woke, feminist nonsense (which neither are), they failed for a number of reasons, one of them having to do with the fact that women simply don't seem to like or attend these movies nearly as much as men.
Sure, its undeniable that films with women definitely take a hit. My point isn't to deny that, but to show how MEN THEMSELVES want to see themselves in the films they go see but that somehow doesn't translate for those making the complaints about who is cast or who is included in those roles. As perfectly evidenced by the other post I just responded to.
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Fenrir
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In reply to MBAR • 9:38p, 11/19/23
The post you're referring to doesn't say what you're alleging. You're trying to force a narrative so hard right now you're a hammer looking for a nail.
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TCTTS
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In reply to MBAR • 9:39p, 11/19/23
AG
I hear you in that regard. Agreed. It's incredibly dumb/ironic.
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MBAR
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In reply to Fenrir • 9:43p, 11/19/23
AG
Fenrir said:
The post you're referring to doesn't say what you're alleging. You're trying to force a narrative so hard right now you're a hammer looking for a nail.
Of course it says that. He literally says no one will go see a movie without men, which includes men no? He's telling you that men won't go see movies where they don't see themselves while making the argument that people seeing themselves in a movie doesn't matter.

If you don't see that then I simply don't know what to tell you. Its literally plain as day in his own words and you still deny it.
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MBAR
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9:48p, 11/19/23
AG
I think it was Fig86 who posted about looking at a profile to see the posting tendency in order to know if a person was worth debating. Thanks for this lol.
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Fenrir
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In reply to MBAR • 9:48p, 11/19/23
He is saying there are not significant number of people going to see it solely because a woman is the lead. That a woman is the lead is way down the list of things that are going to make people go see it and that's pretty clear with this line

"A movie doesn't bomb this hard because men aren't seeing it. It bombs this hard because no one is seeing it."

Context matters.
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