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TCTTS
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Fenrir said:

In reality Ms marvel has a lot going against it.

Super hero fatigue
Mcu has become convoluted and too large. Most people simply don't have the time or ****s to give to keep up which means they are likely to pull out entirely. Honestly some parallels here with issues that the comic industry runs into sometimes.
No other known names in it besides brie
Brie and Ms marvel came across a bit like a Mary Sue in her movie and avengers endgame
People just seem pickier in general about what they go see now. Movies are expensive trips for a family and nobody wants to waste money in an already tight economy.


This reminded me of another point I realized while watching this movie, which is basically that, because of the whole amnesia thing, Carol has almost no personality. I couldn't tell you a single thing about what makes her her. She has no quirks, unique desires, no real sense of humor, defining characteristics, etc. She's basically just "powerful woman" and that's it. None of which is Larson's fault - I think she's doing the best with what was given to her - it's more just terrible, cliched writing that traded out any semblance of a defining personality for some half-assed Bourne storytelling device. Which ultimately didn't endear the character to anyone, no one really cared about her plight so they didn't show up to watch this one, etc.
Fenrir
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MBAR said:

I think it was Fig86 who posted about looking at a profile to see the posting tendency in order to know if a person was worth debating. Thanks for this lol.


Going through life this sensitive must be really rough.
Fenrir
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There was a video I saw the other day about the "marvelization" of major movies these days. I don't agree with every part but it definitely had some points especially as it relates to the direction studios have been taking their movies. A lot of it boiled down to studios exerting too much influence over the direction of a movie. One compelling part was the comparison of the LOTR trilogy and the Hobbit trilogy.
MBAR
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TCTTS said:

Fenrir said:

In reality Ms marvel has a lot going against it.

Super hero fatigue
Mcu has become convoluted and too large. Most people simply don't have the time or ****s to give to keep up which means they are likely to pull out entirely. Honestly some parallels here with issues that the comic industry runs into sometimes.
No other known names in it besides brie
Brie and Ms marvel came across a bit like a Mary Sue in her movie and avengers endgame
People just seem pickier in general about what they go see now. Movies are expensive trips for a family and nobody wants to waste money in an already tight economy.


This reminded me of another point I realized while watching this movie, which is basically that, because of the whole amnesia thing, Carol basically has no personality. I couldn't tell you a single thing about what makes her her. She has no quirks, unique desires, no real sense of humor, defining characteristics, etc. She's basically just "powerful woman" and that's it. None of which is Larson's fault - I think she's doing the best with what was given to her - it's more just terrible, cliched writing that traded out any semblance of a defining personality for some half-assed Bourne storytelling device. Which ultimately didn't endear the character to anyone, no one really cared about her plight so they didn't show up to watch this one, etc.
They've just straight up done an awful job with the character. Not sure its salvageable at this point.
TCTTS
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Sounds like the discourse could have been even more lively…

ABATTBQ11
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MBAR said:

ABATTBQ11 said:

MBAR said:

It's so ridiculous that a bunch of the same men on here who argue that representation doesn't matter so marvel should ignore it also make the argument that men won't go see a movie because women are the leads.




The problem isn't that men won't go see a movie because women are the leads, it's that no one will see it because women are the leads. A movie doesn't bomb this hard because men aren't seeing it. It bombs this hard because no one is seeing it.

This is proof that representation doesn't, in fact, matter. If it did, women would be seeing this in droves. They're not. If representation mattered, it would put butts in seats and sell tickets, but it doesn't.
"Men won't go see movies without men"
"This is proof who is in a movie doesn't matter"

Amazing


This has nothing to do with men.
ABATTBQ11
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Fenrir said:

He is saying there are not significant number of people going to see it solely because a woman is the lead. That a woman is the lead is way down the list of things that are going to make people go see it and that's pretty clear with this line

"A movie doesn't bomb this hard because men aren't seeing it. It bombs this hard because no one is seeing it."

Context matters.


This guy can read.
Quad Dog
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I think they were going for stoic but that is hard to pull off.
ABATTBQ11
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TCTTS said:

ABATTBQ11 said:

MBAR said:

It's so ridiculous that a bunch of the same men on here who argue that representation doesn't matter so marvel should ignore it also make the argument that men won't go see a movie because women are the leads.




The problem isn't that men won't go see a movie because women are the leads, it's that no one will see it because women are the leads. A movie doesn't bomb this hard because men aren't seeing it. It bombs this hard because no one is seeing it.

This is proof that representation doesn't, in fact, matter. If it did, women would be seeing this in droves. They're not. If representation mattered, it would put butts in seats and sell tickets, but it doesn't.


Dude, come on. This is "proof" of nothing in that regard. Sometimes representation matters more to certain people, sometimes it doesn't. All this proves is that it's a crap shoot. In this case, it didn't matter. But in the case of, say, Black Panther or even Shang Chi, it did matter. It all depends on multiple factors, the context, a combination of race, sex, genres, etc. To make such a reductive, blanket statement accomplishes nothing.


Black Panther is as much representation as BET or Ebony. Shang Chi had a $430 million worldwide box office and barely broke even, all things considered. Representation is not something you can build a $200 million movie on or build a franchise around.
TCTTS
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Literally no clue what you mean by that first sentence. As for everything else, what's your alternative? Disney/Marvel should never try and sell to anyone other than white males? I don't even understand what you're arguing. All I'm saying is that it makes sense, every so often, to try and widen your audience, and thus make more money, by selling to people other than your core customer. Sometimes you'll succeed. Sometimes you'll fail. But it's worth taking that chance every so often.
Cliff.Booth
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The racial identity or gender of the main characters(s) should be like 10th on the list of what matters about them. But studios keep churning out these projects which obviously started with "we need a Marvel movie starring a ____" and they build a weakass generic movie hoping that ______ will care that there's representation of ______. Just write a badass movie that *anyone* would want to get out and see. If it doesn't seem to have a compelling plot, great visuals (not a freaking greenscreen fest, and something original to set it apart, who gives a damn who is being represented. It's crazy that studios can't seem to understand what America's moviegoers have had enough of.
TCTTS
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Cliff.Booth said:

The racial identity or gender of the main characters(s) should be like 10th on the list of what matters about them. But studios keep churning out these projects which obviously started with "we need a Marvel movie starring a ____" and they build a weakass generic movie hoping that ______ will care that there's representation of ______. Just write a badass movie that *anyone* would want to get out and see. If it doesn't seem to have a compelling plot, great visuals (not a freaking greenscreen fest, and something original to set it apart, who gives a damn who is being represented. It's crazy that studios can't seem to understand what America's moviegoers have had enough of.

I don't disagree with this general sentiment. IMO, American culture/the left/younger generations place far too much importance on race, gender, and sexual orientation. Or, rather, they let it all define themselves to such a degree that it can often ironically end up limiting their potential, while further boxing us off into even more siloed groups.

But the simple fact remains that, by and large, women want to watch women in prominent roles on screen, black people want to watch black people in prominent roles on screen, Indian people want to watch Indian people in prominent roles on screen, Jewish people want to watch Jewish people in prominent roles on screen, gay people want to watch gay people in prominent roles on screen, etc, etc, etc.

This is an inarguable fact of human nature.

That doesn't mean these groups want see ONLY their experiences and their experiences alone reflected back to them. But in a medium where storytelling has been dominated by depictions of white men for the better part of a century, I completely understand and empathize with other demographics wanting the same experience I've had as a white male born in the 1980s, where nearly every major blockbuster I watched growing up starred another white male, many of whom were roughly my same age, many of them sharing some of exact same experiences I've had.

Yes, the entire point of the cinematic experience is to experience what it would be like to walk in someone else's shoes. But after nearly a century of walking in the shoes of mostly white males on screen, I totally get minorities wanting just a few more experiences of their own depicted on screen. No one is asking for the world here. They're simply testing the waters as to would be like to go from a blockbuster landscape where white males have dominated, say, 85% of the content to, say, only 70% of the content.

And from a financial standpoint, I get why studios have been willing to experiment more and more in that regard, seeing if any of these previously underserved audiences can bring in more $$$. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't

What I don't understand is why a number of people here and on the internet at large absolutely lose their minds at having to give up only a 15% share (give or take) of their storytelling dominance, when it's beyond clear that A) the vast majority of blockbusters still feature white male leads, and B) this is clearly a period of experimentation/growing pains, as the studios - and society - figure out how to better-accommodate undeserved demographics. Yes, these experiments have clearly resulted in subpar storytelling. Yes, these experiments can dive too deep into identity politics. But in the end, $$$ is still king, and you can at least bet that after the financial disasters of The Marvels and Birds of Prey, they won't try this particular experiment again. So just let them continue to learn their lessons. In the meantime we can go back watching basically every other movie, the vast majority of which are still geared towards the people they've always been geared towards.
ABATTBQ11
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TCTTS said:

Literally no clue what you mean by that first sentence. As for everything else, what's your alternative? Disney/Marvel should never try and sell to anyone other than white males? I don't even understand what you're arguing. All I'm saying is that it makes sense, every so often, to try and widen your audience, and thus make more money, by selling to people other than your core customer. Sometimes you'll succeed. Sometimes you'll fail. But it's worth taking that chance every so often.


This is you trying to put words in my mouth. The alternative is to make movies for entertaining everyone.

The problem is when representation becomes a main selling point. Very few people are going to go see a movie specifically because it has 3 female leads and a black female director. People will go see a movie because it's good entertainment. They don't care about the diversity boxes it checks.
TCTTS
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ABATTBQ11 said:

TCTTS said:

Literally no clue what you mean by that first sentence. As for everything else, what's your alternative? Disney/Marvel should never try and sell to anyone other than white males? I don't even understand what you're arguing. All I'm saying is that it makes sense, every so often, to try and widen your audience, and thus make more money, by selling to people other than your core customer. Sometimes you'll succeed. Sometimes you'll fail. But it's worth taking that chance every so often.


This is you trying to put words in my mouth. The alternative is to make movies for entertaining everyone.

The problem is when representation becomes a main selling point. Very few people are going to go see a movie specifically because it has 3 female leads and a black female director. People will go see a movie because it's good entertainment. They don't care about the diversity boxes it checks.

This is true, but only to an extent. Again, there are MANY people who want both. They want good entertainment, but they ALSO want to see themselves reflected more often on screen. So why do you care so much if them getting to have that experience barely affects you? For argument's sake, say ten blockbusters released every year featured white male leads. So what if now there are only eight? Why does that annoy so many of you? Especially when all signs point to things eventually going back to at least nine, seeing as a few of these experiments are objectively failing.

Also, define what "making movies for everyone" means to you. Because at the end of the day these movies still have to pick a race and a gender for the lead. And it seems, no matter what, if they're not all white male leads, there's a contingent of people who get their panties all in a bunch. One of my proposed "solves" was no more blockbuster superhero movies with all female leads, where men take a far back seat/barely affect the plot. Instead, if you have a female lead, make sure there are prominent males roles as well, if only to ensure that males show up to your movie. But even in, say, the Star Wars sequels, where there was a female lead surrounded by all kinds of male leads, people still lost their minds that Star Wars had gone "woke," simply because the third trilogy in the franchise didn't revolve around yet another white male. So in that instance, how do you "make that movie for everyone"? What's the solve there?
maroon barchetta
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Quote:


But the simple fact remains that, by and large, women want to watch women in prominent roles on screen,


Based on what? What "inarguable" data reflects this? Is there some poll or research study of female movie goers that backs your point? If not, you are making blanket statements, and as seen above, you don't care for blanket statements.

Maverick did great because just white men went to see it? Or because it was a great movie released at the right time that everyone enjoyed?

GOTG1 did great and people loved it even though very few movie goers knew anything about it.

Did female viewers push WW84 over the top? Or did they end up avoiding it because it was lame?

Avatar made stupid money twice because of a female lead? Or because it was something people had not seen before (minus the story, which we saw in Dances With Wolves)?

Make a good movie. People will choose to see it because it is good over what the gender or pigmentation of the lead characters has to do with it.
TCTTS
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Sometimes I really do wonder how you guys just completely glaze over or ignore parts of certain posts, just to argue a single point...

Quote:

That doesn't mean these groups want see ONLY their experiences and their experiences alone reflected back to them.

In other words, as I've said multiple times now, of course women/minorities will watch and can enjoy any type of movie, no matter the race/gender/sexual orientation of the main character(s). No one is even remotely arguing the opposite. Again, it's not an either/or situation.

I'm simply pointing out that people who aren't white males ALSO enjoy seeing their experiences reflected back to them on screen, IN ADDITION to enjoying all sorts of other movies.

You guys get so laughably worked up over this, when it's not rocket science, nor is it some evil liberal agenda.

All that said, to ask for hard data or polls showing that women want to watch women on screen is so laughably and purposefully disingenuous, I don't know what to say. Most women like romantic comedies. Most women like romantic dramas. Most women like movies and TV shows that play to more feminine sensibilities, most of which feature female leads. Do they like a ton of other things as well? Yes! Do all women like romantic comedies/dramas? Absolutely not.

Either way, it's not some big, woke mystery why studios started thinking, "If women flock to these female-centric genres, maybe they'll show up for female-centric superhero movies too." And sure, since then, there have been plenty of failures in that regard, but there have been plenty of successes as well. Like I said, it's all an experiment to try and figure out what works and what doesn't, which is becoming clearer by the day.

Also, just naming popular blockbusters that everyone likes isn't at all the argument anyone here is having, and proves nothing. Again, we all know that everyone - women, black people, gay people, etc - like a lot of the good stuff that everyone else likes too. That's... obvious. What I'm saying is that when so much of that good stuff - like, almost all of it - was at one point dominated by white male leads, after decades and decades, non-white-males simply wanted to see themselves in those blockbusters AS WELL. Not in place of. Not exclusively. But in addition to.

And for the life of me, why that concept makes some of you so mad, or is so hard to grasp, I will never understand.
maroon barchetta
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Maybe instead if immediately going to the C/LOL emoji and writing five hundred words to explain, you could read back to where you said it was "inarguable".

Your word.

I'm not suggesting any conspiracy or leftist movement. I'm just asking where you got your data.

*hint* you are sitting on your source for the data that makes it "inarguable"
TCTTS
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The point I'm clearly trying to make is that a portion of non-white-males want to see their experiences represented on screen, in addition to all the other stuff they watch and enjoy. A statement that doesn't need "sources" or "data." It's basic human nature, based on the sheer number of women/minorities who have expressed this sentiment time and again online, in interviews, in conversation, and on this very board, for years if not decades now. Like, what are you even arguing at this point? Because I refuse to believe that anyone can be so oblivious to such a simple - and yes, inarguable - fact.
rhutton125
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Carol's personality is that she's brash and confident. Sometimes too much so - like when she "solves" the Kree/Skrull war by blowing up the Kree's AI and leaving them in a state of perpetual civil war. Or when she is sure she can outmaneuver those jets and nearly gets them all killed. But the film does a poor job of showing the repercussions of those personality traits. Maybe if we saw how she learned from those two examples and did something different in the finale.

Supposedly Carol and Rhodey were once a thing in the comics. I was hoping they'd explore that in CM2. Feels like a Captain Marvel / War Machine joint might have given them more time and space to explore both characters - and feature two characters we know (to some extent).

But I think the main problem with a lot of these projects is the budget. $250 million is what they spent on Infinity War and Endgame each, IIRC. You don't need to spend that on Secret Invasion and the Marvels. Did you get your money's worth, Disney? And isn't it unrealistic to require nearly a billion to break even?
maroon barchetta
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You are basing it on your opinion or feelings.

I don't choose a movie based on the desire to see people that look like me.

Tomb Raider was one I went to see because I liked the game and like action/fantasy/adventure movies, and because Angelina Jolie was a big deal.

Moana? Nothing like me in the movie. Don't care. Really liked the movie.

Want to talk tv? Poker Face. Female lead. Kinda weird and quirky. Not particularly attractive. But I enjoyed the show because I like the mystery that wraps up in an episode while being part of a larger story that arcs over the season (and beyond).

We can do this all day, but you are projecting your feelings as facts. I don't expect you to see it any differently than that.

I do expect you to take shots at my mental capacity or emotional state. It's what you usually do. And you get banned for it. And then you do it again later. Because you don't learn. Because feelings.

In this case, don't listen to Obi-Wan. Don't trust your feelings, Luke.
Moral High Horse
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I demand more male centered leads in romantic comedies!!!!

-Said no one ever
TCTTS
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Seriously, what in the world are you going on about?

It is a fact that women/minorities have expressed a desire to see their experiences reflected more on screen. This isn't something that's even remotely debatable. It isn't my "opinion" and has absolutely nothing to do with my "feelings."

I'm of course not speaking for all women/minorities, but there ARE women/minorities who have expressed this sentiment time and again, in myriad ways, on all kinds of platforms, for years/decades now. To the point where I legitimately can't believe I'm having an argument with someone who refuses to admit such a simple, obvious fact.

Also, you just naming subjective instances in which you've connected with movies featuring non-white-male leads in no way flies in the face of anything I've been saying. Again, for the umpteenth time, people can and do connect with movies/shows featuring leads who are different than themselves, all the time. I've made that point over and over again. However, it doesn't mean that some of those people don't ALSO want to see their experiences reflected back to them from time to time.
TCTTS
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Moral High Horse said:

I demand more male centered leads in romantic comedies!!!!

-Said no one ever


And why would they? If the vast majority of content was already geared toward you, you wouldn't feel the desire to see yourself reflected in what you watch, because most of it already is. We're clearly talking about people who haven't had that same experience for decades now.
tomtomdrumdrum
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maroon barchetta said:

You are basing it on your opinion or feelings.

I don't choose a movie based on the desire to see people that look like me.

Tomb Raider was one I went to see because I liked the game and like action/fantasy/adventure movies, and because Angelina Jolie was a big deal.

Moana? Nothing like me in the movie. Don't care. Really liked the movie.

Want to talk tv? Poker Face. Female lead. Kinda weird and quirky. Not particularly attractive. But I enjoyed the show because I like the mystery that wraps up in an episode while being part of a larger story that arcs over the season (and beyond).

We can do this all day, but you are projecting your feelings as facts. I don't expect you to see it any differently than that.

I do expect you to take shots at my mental capacity or emotional state. It's what you usually do. And you get banned for it. And then you do it again later. Because you don't learn. Because feelings.

In this case, don't listen to Obi-Wan. Don't trust your feelings, Luke.

Indulge me in this hypothetical about one of your examples:

Imagine you're a woman who doesn't play video games and only occasionally enjoys an action movie. Maybe you think all action movies are the same (people punching each other, a car chase, boring!). Tomb Raider might stand out from the pack of other action adventure movies because it stars a woman. Nothing to say about its quality or content, but just that it gets your attention means that you might consider seeing it. And if you do see it and it's good, you'll tell other people to see it too.

And just like that, the demographic of people seeing video game based action adventure movies has expanded.
BQRyno
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TCTTS said:

Either way, it's not some big, woke mystery why studios started thinking, "If women flock to these female-centric genres, maybe they'll show up for female-centric superhero movies too." And sure, since then, there have been plenty of failures in that regard, but there have been plenty of successes as well. Like I said, it's all an experiment to try and figure out what works and what doesn't, which is becoming clearer by the day.


I don't think it's a conspiracy. I do think at the minimum it's a lack of common sense. Prior to this quote, you talk about women disproportionately enjoying romantic comedies and also point out that they have female leads. Not mentioned, but the opposite, is that men disproportionately enjoy action (and in this case superhero) movies, which historically have more male leads. If studio heads' conclusion is that women are watching romantic comedies because they have female leads and that men are watching superhero movies because they have male leads (which absolutely must be the case for your comment to be true), then I have to wonder whether those studio heads have ever met a normal American man or woman. Men like superhero stories, so superheroes are mostly men. Women like romance stories, so those are geared toward women. Each group doesn't watch those movies because the leads are their sex. I firmly believe 80% of Americans could have told you The Marvels would underperform because it was marketed toward women, who generally aren't interested as much as men about superheroes. That's not a conspiracy. It's a bubble.
TCTTS
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A point I'm not arguing one bit. That said, you're underestimating how desperate studios are, and you're discounting the times women *have* shown up for female leads in Star Wars, Hunger Games, etc. So it's not THAT much a leap to hope/think they might show up for female-led superhero movies as well. Turns out, that was a bridge too far, at least in the way Marvel went about it, so I doubt we see another one from them for quite some time.
TCTTS
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tomtomdrumdrum said:

maroon barchetta said:

You are basing it on your opinion or feelings.

I don't choose a movie based on the desire to see people that look like me.

Tomb Raider was one I went to see because I liked the game and like action/fantasy/adventure movies, and because Angelina Jolie was a big deal.

Moana? Nothing like me in the movie. Don't care. Really liked the movie.

Want to talk tv? Poker Face. Female lead. Kinda weird and quirky. Not particularly attractive. But I enjoyed the show because I like the mystery that wraps up in an episode while being part of a larger story that arcs over the season (and beyond).

We can do this all day, but you are projecting your feelings as facts. I don't expect you to see it any differently than that.

I do expect you to take shots at my mental capacity or emotional state. It's what you usually do. And you get banned for it. And then you do it again later. Because you don't learn. Because feelings.

In this case, don't listen to Obi-Wan. Don't trust your feelings, Luke.

Indulge me in this hypothetical about one of your examples:

Imagine you're a woman who doesn't play video games and only occasionally enjoys an action movie. Maybe you think all action movies are the same (people punching each other, a car chase, boring!). Tomb Raider might stand out from the pack of other action adventure movies because it stars a woman. Nothing to say about its quality or content, but just that it gets your attention means that you might consider seeing it. And if you do see it and it's good, you'll tell other people to see it too.

And just like that, the demographic of people seeing video game based action adventure movies has expanded.


Bingo. And such a simple concept too, one that still shocks me that certain people can't grasp.
Coog97
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maroon barchetta said:

Maybe instead if immediately going to the C/LOL emoji and writing five hundred words to explain, you could read back to where you said it was "inarguable".

Your word.

I'm not suggesting any conspiracy or leftist movement. I'm just asking where you got your data.

*hint* you are sitting on your source for the data that makes it "inarguable"
“Things weren’t gentle and politically correct in those days. We weren’t candy asses. Okay?”
-Frank Borman

“Who are you to doubt El Dandy? ‘Cause this guy’s a serious professional.”
-Bret Hart
Urban Ag
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The vast majority off women I know don't want to see super hero movies. This should be a given. And if they are going to see one, typically with the husband and kids, they want to see Hemwsorth, RDJ, Evans, Pratt, etc. This should also be a given.

The reason why this film is failing is not because boys aren't seeing it. It's because girls aren't.
The Porkchop Express
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So who were you guys favorite characters?
Brian Earl Spilner
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Urban is spot on. I don't have the article in front of me, but I read (or heard on a YouTube video) that Marvels' audience was 70% male. So, the men are definitely not the problem for this one.
The Porkchop Express
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Claude!
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The Porkchop Express said:


Quick, someone find a time where Stephen King gloated over someone/something's failure.
javajaws
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I'm not gonna get involved in the pointless argument above, but I will say that in general terms companies (and not just Hollywood) have a hard time "getting out of their wheelhouse". In the ever ending quest for bigger profits and a larger market share many companies have failed or nearly self destructed trying to be something they aren't. Sometimes its with a different product, sometimes its trying to sell the same product to a new demographic, and sometimes its both. Some companies succeed at this and they get bigger and better - but many don't.

This is what's happening to the Marvel franchise. They are literally losing everything in the quest for larger profits. And in their case the cause is many - too much content, too much BAD content, bad messaging, forgetting their core customers, etc.

This whole lead role being a "male" vs "female" (or whatever gender descriptions you use) is just a symptom of the larger problem. And nobody wants to address that larger problem so instead they just blame it on "white males", etc.
captkirk
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MBAR said:

It's so ridiculous that a bunch of the same men on here who argue that representation doesn't matter so marvel should ignore it also make the argument that men won't go see a movie because women are the leads.
I think the box office numbers bear that out. Is that notion in dispute at this point?
 
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