Silent For Too Long said:

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Derm, didn't you know? Origen was just **** posting for lulz.

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I laughed.

light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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Affirm that there is reasonable possibility of ECT hell. That those you evangelize should know it is a possibility and what that means.

Common Dermdoc. Affirm it. Otherwise, don't consider yourself a "hopeful" universalist, that which you actually just think is hard universalism

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I will evangelize like Paul and the apostles did in Acts. Never mentioned ECT hell.

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But you said you couldn't have ever had kids if Gods perfect justice did imply eternal hell. I'm sure you have reconciled that?

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I had kids. You decide.

Finally got the St. Augustine link up.

Silent For Too Long said:

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Derm, didn't you know? Origen was just **** posting for lulz.

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And everybody talks about Origen but St. Augustine himself said there were many misericordes.

Angry Jonathan Zaludek said:

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I believe the worms that don't die are in dead bodies and Jesus was talking about the bodies tossed in Gehenna after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 ad.

This was prophesied in the OT also. And it never says the people wil be punished. Just die. I do not think this is about eternal judgement. No mention of heaven, hell, or eternal punishment.

This is a good resource for the different views of hell by Christian theologians

dermdoc said:

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Angry Jonathan Zaludek said:

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I believe the worms that don't die are in dead bodies and Jesus was talking about the bodies tossed in Gehenna after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 ad.

This was prophesied in the OT also. And it never says the people wil be punished. Just die. I do not think this is about eternal judgement. No mention of heaven, hell, or eternal punishment.

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This doesn't make sense. What is death? The separation of the soul from the body. What is spiritual death? The separation of the soul from God.

Your physical body dies on this earth. So physical worms eat it. Jesus isn't talking about physical worms, because he says, 'its the worms that don't die.' So he's talking about spiritual worms that are feasting on souls.

And for it to be about the temple in 70, thats 40 years past Jesus breaking open the gates of Hades, taking the righteous dead to Heaven and having heaven open for us to go to directly when we die.

So anyone in Hades at that time is there awaiting final judgement. So the only hope is that they are spared final judgement.

Various saints have seen visions of hell and one of the things reported back from hell is worms that don't die that bore through your spiritual body but don't leave any wounds behind. It was not a pleasant feeling. Very much in line with what Jesus is saying here.

Fair enough. I disagree. And I am not saying there is not a hell or punishment, just do not believe in eternal punishment.

I could easily be talked into annihilationism and there is more Scriptural support for that in my opinion than ultimate reconciliation. And I believe ECT hell has the least Scriptural support.

If you are interested read the link I provided on the four views of hell. Very well done in my opinion. And they address all of these verses. Different interpretations of course.

And I want to repeat I am not trying to change anyone's mind. I never knew there were well established different views of hell since early Christianity. And they were respected by even folks like Augustine.

dermdoc said:

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Fair enough. I disagree. And I am not saying there is not a hell or punishment, just do not believe in eternal punishment.

I could easily be talked into annihilationism and there is more Scriptural support for that in my opinion than ultimate reconciliation. And I believe ECT hell has the least Scriptural support.

If you are interested read the link I provided on the four views of hell. Very well done in my opinion. And they address all of these verses. Different interpretations of course.

And I want to repeat I am not trying to change anyone's mind. I never knew there were well established different views of hell since early Christianity. And they were respected by even folks like Augustine.

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I think this is the crux here. Whether or not I get talked into annihilation-ism has no bearing on whether or not its true or is something God desires.

Derm, the root here is you just don't like the idea of people suffering eternally and so it can't possibly be an option. But that is not how God has to operate.

And at the end of the day there is either A) A lack of trust in your own salvation or B) a lack of trust that God is the perfect, sovereign judge that will be able to be both justice and mercy to everyone. The saints have repeatedly been shown that the devil has ensnared this world with infinite traps and that it is impossible for man on his own to overcome them, but that with God all things are possible.

Saint Siluan had similar concerns about the state of man before God and God directly answered him, 'Keep your mind in hell and despair not.' God didn't say, "Don't worry there won't be any eternal punishment." God, even in revelation to assuage the saint, still only gave him enough to work out his salvation.

And thats all we can do in this life. Prayer, fasting, almsgiving, confession, forgiveness, humility, communion. Work on our theosis. A hugely central point of Orthodoxy is that we can only overcome the sins of this world with humility. The rest we have to pray for peace and for God's will to be done and trust that God is perfectly sovereign here.

one MEEN Ag said:

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dermdoc said:

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Fair enough. I disagree. And I am not saying there is not a hell or punishment, just do not believe in eternal punishment.

I could easily be talked into annihilationism and there is more Scriptural support for that in my opinion than ultimate reconciliation. And I believe ECT hell has the least Scriptural support.

If you are interested read the link I provided on the four views of hell. Very well done in my opinion. And they address all of these verses. Different interpretations of course.

And I want to repeat I am not trying to change anyone's mind. I never knew there were well established different views of hell since early Christianity. And they were respected by even folks like Augustine.

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I think this is the crux here. Whether or not I get talked into annihilation-ism has no bearing on whether or not its true or is something God desires.

Derm, the root here is you just don't like the idea of people suffering eternally and so it can't possibly be an option. But that is not how God has to operate.

And at the end of the day there is either A) A lack of trust in your own salvation or B) a lack of trust that God is the perfect, sovereign judge that will be able to be both justice and mercy to everyone. The saints have repeatedly been shown that the devil has ensnared this world with infinite traps and that it is impossible for man on his own to overcome them, but that with God all things are possible.

Saint Siluan had similar concerns about the state of man before God and God directly answered him, 'Keep your mind in hell and despair not.' God didn't say, "Don't worry there won't be any eternal punishment." God, even in revelation to assuage the saint, still only gave him enough to work out his salvation.

And thats all we can do in this life. Prayer, fasting, almsgiving, confession, forgiveness, humility, communion. Work on our theosis. A hugely central point of Orthodoxy is that we can only overcome the sins of this world with humility. The rest we have to pray for peace and for God's will to be done and trust that God is perfectly sovereign here.

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I will be honest and say that the idea of the loving God I know eternally torturing anyone is an oxymoron. Especially if coupled with double pre destination.

Because of this I have spent years studying this and it is not near as clear cut as I was taught in Sunday School. I gave links to Scripture supporting universal reconciliation and I doubt anyone on here even read them.

I have also stated that there is a lot of Scriptural support for annihilationism, probably more than universal reconciliation.

I think the least Scriptural support is for ECT hell. I think of lot of ECT hell proponents do not understand the significance of alternate hell theories, especially in the Early Church.

I was an ECT hell proponent for most of my life. Most Christian's are not bothered by this. I was and therefore spent years studying Scripture and different theologians.

And I do not believe in ECT hell. So we disagree. And that is fine. I am not trying to change anyone's mind. But when someone posts a sermon like is in the op or Sproul's sermon (and I really like and respect RC Sproul) I am going to give my opinion. Maybe I should just shut up but it is not my nature.

There is no Scripture to my knowledge that says we are damned due to our hell theology. So we will hopefully agree to be brothers in Christ.

"God torturing people" isn't what he's saying, as far as I can tell.

Zobel said:

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"God torturing people" isn't what he's saying, as far as I can tell.

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He may not be but there are a lot of pastors, especially of the Calvinist bent, who preach that. Jonathan Edwards was the model for that.

dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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"God torturing people" isn't what he's saying, as far as I can tell.

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He may not be but there are a lot of pastors, especially of the Calvinist bent, who preach that. Jonathan Edwards was the model for that.

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Wrong. Jonathan Edwards understood what hell is: eternal separation from God.
I'm a Calvinist and understand Romans 1:18-31 to say hell where the souls of those who are/were self-decieved and decievwd others being stubbornly unrepentant for their sins go.. since God also clearly states, "vengeance is Mine." Also " Matthew 25:46, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment."
Hell is everyone's default destination if not for the grace of God by sending His Son, His work on the cross and saving us from that eternal separation from Himself.

AginKS said:

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dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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"God torturing people" isn't what he's saying, as far as I can tell.

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He may not be but there are a lot of pastors, especially of the Calvinist bent, who preach that. Jonathan Edwards was the model for that.

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Wrong. Jonathan Edwards understood what hell is: eternal separation from God.
I'm a Calvinist and understand Romans 1:18-31 to say hell where the souls of those who are/were self-decieved and decievwd others being stubbornly unrepentant for their sins go.. since God also clearly states, "vengeance is Mine." Also " Matthew 25:46, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment."
Hell is everyone's default destination if not for the grace of God by sending His Son, His work on the cross and saving us from that eternal separation from Himself.

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Have you read Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God? Do you believe a loving God who created every person would hold them like a spider over the forest of hell? Have you read what Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, R C Sproul have said about God actively administering the punishment? Washer said that we believers and all of creation would applaud watching the damned go to ECT hell.

There is much more than eternal separation being preached by these guys. Who are all Calvinists.

one MEEN Ag said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Sounds like you don't know much about Calvinism. Doesn't produce fruit? Joy? It's demonic. C'mon man. You are typically the "orthodox" poster I gravitate towards this most, but you're out of your swim lane here.

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You've never seen the depths of calvinism then. Those who take its convictions to their logical conclusions. That:

A) God has directly and purposefully damned people to hell. They were created for destruction, will not be redeemed, all through no fault of their own.
B) You cannot make any first step towards God. God does. You have no free will in the manner.
C) You cannot do anything to work on your salvation. Your fruits are worthless.

This leads to two groups:

-People staying awake at night, going am I going to heaven? What if God didn't chose me? He is angry and will damn anyone he chooses to hell regardless of how good of a life they live or don't-because nobody actually lives a good life. There's nothing I can do to assure myself of salvation, or any fruit I can rely on as evidence of the holy spirit regenerating me.

-People proud that God chose them. Their pride blinds them. Others be damned, they are elect. You can be elect if choose us. But you can't choose us, God chooses if you're in or out and we will use shallow human politics to make it feel like you are in or out of this church.

All heresies are demon driven. To confuse about the nature of God is a ploy of the devil. Are these people as damned as they say they are? No, because God isn't actually a Calvinist. Probably one of the most non-apophatic statements of God you can take to the bank. But this does cause all sorts of issues for the soul, body and congregation on this side of life. Anything the bolsters pride in oneself is putting themselves at increased risk here. Humility is the only way to overcome the snares of this life.

So when I say that Calvinism is demon driven - duh. Guess what is also driving the spirit of protestant splintering in every direction.

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The only thing you got correct is point B (with a caveat) and that God isn't a Calvinist (not sure what that means). We have no free will to please God and choose him prior to Him giving us a new heart (regeneration). See Paul's conversion as an rudimentary example. If you can tell me how Paul made the first step towards his faith in Christ, I am all ears.

You can go on believing whatever you want to believe though. I don't suffer from staying awake all night wondering about my salvation (Philippians 1:6) nor do I feel prideful about my calling and election (Ephesians 2:8-9). I guess I do not have a home in the demonic buckets you manufactured. In fact, one of the biggest areas of conviction in the past year for myself personally has been my cowardice at sharing the gospel, and it has nothing to do with Calvinism. Just sharing the good news of Christ out of an overflow of love for Christ and doing what he commands. I need to do it. I want to do it. But I don't (Romans 7).

dermdoc said:

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AginKS said:

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dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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"God torturing people" isn't what he's saying, as far as I can tell.

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He may not be but there are a lot of pastors, especially of the Calvinist bent, who preach that. Jonathan Edwards was the model for that.

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Wrong. Jonathan Edwards understood what hell is: eternal separation from God.
I'm a Calvinist and understand Romans 1:18-31 to say hell where the souls of those who are/were self-decieved and decievwd others being stubbornly unrepentant for their sins go.. since God also clearly states, "vengeance is Mine." Also " Matthew 25:46, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment."
Hell is everyone's default destination if not for the grace of God by sending His Son, His work on the cross and saving us from that eternal separation from Himself.

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Have you read Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God? Do you believe a loving God who created every person would hold them like a spider over the forest of hell? Have you read what Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, R C Sproul have said about God actively administering the punishment? Washer said that we believers and all of creation would applaud watching the damned go to ECT hell.

There is much more than eternal separation being preached by these guys. Who are all Calvinists.

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First, no they aren't all Calvinsts; simply slander to say it is.
Secondly, apparently you don't understand what true separation from God really is or haven't thought about it too deeply. If you think the world is bad currently (or has been historically - think of the hedonism of S&G or Rome): those are/were picnics compared to what man can sink to if unrestrained by God. Therefore, separation from Him is ECT hell.

And yes, I have read "Sinners in the Hands Of An Angry God" as part of my studies. Modern ears cringe at the idea that God is sovereign, righteous, just and holy and; as such, is 100% morally, ethically, and just to be wrathful towards sin and those steadfastly refuse to repent and ask forgiveness.

To those who say Calvinism is demonic, I'd say Arminianism is since it seeks to indebt God to each person for making their (correct) decision - while simultaneously they are dead (spiritually) in their trespasses of sin. Arminians won't admit this, but this decision/work is exactly what it logically works out to be.
It also makes man the determining factor of who is saved which is in direct opposition to Ephesians 1:3-6, "3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."
As can be seen, God adopts us - not the other way around - and He did so before the world was created.

AginKS said:

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dermdoc said:

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AginKS said:

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dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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"God torturing people" isn't what he's saying, as far as I can tell.

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He may not be but there are a lot of pastors, especially of the Calvinist bent, who preach that. Jonathan Edwards was the model for that.

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Wrong. Jonathan Edwards understood what hell is: eternal separation from God.
I'm a Calvinist and understand Romans 1:18-31 to say hell where the souls of those who are/were self-decieved and decievwd others being stubbornly unrepentant for their sins go.. since God also clearly states, "vengeance is Mine." Also " Matthew 25:46, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment."
Hell is everyone's default destination if not for the grace of God by sending His Son, His work on the cross and saving us from that eternal separation from Himself.

---

Have you read Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God? Do you believe a loving God who created every person would hold them like a spider over the forest of hell? Have you read what Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, R C Sproul have said about God actively administering the punishment? Washer said that we believers and all of creation would applaud watching the damned go to ECT hell.

There is much more than eternal separation being preached by these guys. Who are all Calvinists.

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First, no they aren't all Calvinsts; simply slander to say it is.
Secondly, apparently you don't understand what true separation from God really is or haven't thought about it too deeply. If you think the world is bad currently (or has been historically - think of the hedonism of S&G or Rome): those are/were picnics compared to what man can sink to if unrestrained by God. Therefore, separation from Him is ECT hell.

And yes, I have read "Sinners in the Hands Of An Angry God" as part of my studies. Modern ears cringe at the idea that God is sovereign, righteous, just and holy and; as such, is 100% morally, ethically, and just to be wrathful towards sin and those steadfastly refuse to repent and ask forgiveness.

To those who say Calvinism is demonic, I'd say Arminianism is since it seeks to indebt God to each person for making their (correct) decision - while simultaneously they are dead (spiritually) in their trespasses of sin. Arminians won't admit this, but this decision/work is exactly what it logically works out to be.
It also makes man the determining factor of who is saved which is in direct opposition to Ephesians 1:3-6, "3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."
As can be seen, God adopts us - not the other way around - and He did so before the world was created.

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Google every pastor I mentioned. They are very prominent Calvinist preachers. And how do you interpret this?

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/etas/54/#:~:text=The%20God%20that%20holds%20you,you%2C%20and%20is%20dreadfully%20provoked

Do you know what double predestination is? That is the theology you embrace.

If you are talking about Washer, Lawson, and Sproul then yes those guys are Calvinists.

I'm thinking there's going to be plenty of different folks in heaven once we get there…Orthodox, Catholics, Protestants (both denominational and non-denominational)….etc..etc..and we're going to look around and wonder what all this arguing we did was about….Hope all are having a good day!

dermdoc said:

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AginKS said:

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dermdoc said:

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AginKS said:

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dermdoc said:

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Zobel said:

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"God torturing people" isn't what he's saying, as far as I can tell.

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He may not be but there are a lot of pastors, especially of the Calvinist bent, who preach that. Jonathan Edwards was the model for that.

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Wrong. Jonathan Edwards understood what hell is: eternal separation from God.
I'm a Calvinist and understand Romans 1:18-31 to say hell where the souls of those who are/were self-decieved and decievwd others being stubbornly unrepentant for their sins go.. since God also clearly states, "vengeance is Mine." Also " Matthew 25:46, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment."
Hell is everyone's default destination if not for the grace of God by sending His Son, His work on the cross and saving us from that eternal separation from Himself.

---

Have you read Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God? Do you believe a loving God who created every person would hold them like a spider over the forest of hell? Have you read what Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, R C Sproul have said about God actively administering the punishment? Washer said that we believers and all of creation would applaud watching the damned go to ECT hell.

There is much more than eternal separation being preached by these guys. Who are all Calvinists.

---

First, no they aren't all Calvinsts; simply slander to say it is.
Secondly, apparently you don't understand what true separation from God really is or haven't thought about it too deeply. If you think the world is bad currently (or has been historically - think of the hedonism of S&G or Rome): those are/were picnics compared to what man can sink to if unrestrained by God. Therefore, separation from Him is ECT hell.

And yes, I have read "Sinners in the Hands Of An Angry God" as part of my studies. Modern ears cringe at the idea that God is sovereign, righteous, just and holy and; as such, is 100% morally, ethically, and just to be wrathful towards sin and those steadfastly refuse to repent and ask forgiveness.

To those who say Calvinism is demonic, I'd say Arminianism is since it seeks to indebt God to each person for making their (correct) decision - while simultaneously they are dead (spiritually) in their trespasses of sin. Arminians won't admit this, but this decision/work is exactly what it logically works out to be.
It also makes man the determining factor of who is saved which is in direct opposition to Ephesians 1:3-6, "3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."
As can be seen, God adopts us - not the other way around - and He did so before the world was created.

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Google every pastor I mentioned. They are very prominent Calvinist preachers. And how do you interpret this?

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/etas/54/#:~:text=The%20God%20that%20holds%20you,you%2C%20and%20is%20dreadfully%20provoked

Do you know what double predestination is? That is the theology you embrace.

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I know who all of those Pastors are and have read most of their books (except for Sproul.. though I listen to some of his old podcasts etc since he passed 8 years ago. I have read a dozen or so books of his).

I believe predestination is clearly taught throughout Scripture. It leaves the individual with much assurance since it is God who saves: not a decision. So called "double predestination" is simply an attempt to demonize Calvinism and the God in which Calvinists believe. God is either omniscient or He isn't. Most Christians confess that He is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. Therefore, He knew before creation who is saved and who isn't primarily because He doesn't learn. He didn't look through time and space and see who would choose Him because that.would be learning.. it would also mean man is autonomous and not in bondage to his natural (evil) will.
Regardless of your theology, atonement is either limited in effect, or limited by selection. Your theology will determine which way it is limited.

It's amazing to me that Arminians have no issue with God choosing:
- to create the universe
- to create Adam first
- to allow Lucifer to fall; along with of the angels (never heard an Arminian explain that one even close to satisfactorily)
- to allow Satan to tempt Eve - and Adam because he stood there and did nothing
- to allow sin to enter the world; back when mankind truly had freewill
- all the men He made covenants with
- all the men He brought up to be Judges
- all the men He made to be prophets
- all the men that served as kings
- all the outcomes of Israeli battles
- a particular people called Hebrews to reveal Himself to and through
- to send His only begotten Son to live a sinless life, born of a virgin, to become the spotless sacrifice for the sins of His people
---> and then Arminians turn around and say there's an issue with God choosing who is saved in spite of verses like:

Acts 28:26-28; "'Go to this people, and say, You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive. For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.' Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen."

Romans 8:9; "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."

Ephesians 1:4-5; even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Jeremiah 1:5; "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Ephesians 1:11; In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

2 Tim 1:9; who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

1 Peter 1:2; according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

1 Peter 1:20; He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you

Rev. 13:8; and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Colossians 1:15-18; He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authoritiesall things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

John 12:40; "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."

Romans 9:15-16&18; For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Joshua 11:20; For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.

Exodus 4:21; And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

2 Thess 2:10-12; and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Romans 11:7-8; What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."

Duet 2:3; But Sihon the king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him, for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that he might give him into your hand, as he is this day.

Romans 1:24-28; Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

Lots of words to say God creates people pre ordained not just to destruction but eternal conscious torment hell. Calvin created double predestination (with the earlier help of Augustine(). I didn't create it. No non Calvinists created it. We see the fallacy of the theology of double predestination. Please don't deny what theology you endorse. Your theology believes God creates people who are pre ordained to eternal torment. And all the pastors I listed believe God is doing the punishment. No separation. Active punishment..

Own it.

And If can list a bunch of Scripture with all men in them. 1 Timothy 2 3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 nip TULIP in the bud.

https://paulspassingthoughts.com/2015/03/07/steve-lawson-sloppy-hermeneutics-will-christ-personally-torment-unbelievers-in-hell-for-eternity-3/