10andBOUNCE said:
LOL. My left ear and nose are starting to get a bit red!
Martin Q. Blank said:
We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.
If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.
At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.
What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.
Rocag said:
For all that Christians like to say we western atheists are just copying their moral teachings, here is an example where I for one certainly differ. Any deity who would ever create hell as described by many Christians as a place of eternal torment or that would allow such a place to exist is categorically unworthy of worship or praise.
BrazosDog02 said:Rocag said:
For all that Christians like to say we western atheists are just copying their moral teachings, here is an example where I for one certainly differ. Any deity who would ever create hell as described by many Christians as a place of eternal torment or that would allow such a place to exist is categorically unworthy of worship or praise.
This is precisely why I am a deist and don't believe in a god that is active in our lives or this world. I'm pretty sure he exists, but he does not interfere. It is exactly why prayer is of no use other than making someone feel better. God isn't going to do anything for you to help or hinder. He isn't responsible for your successes or your failures. As such praying and asking for things is kind of ridiculous.
It's exactly why the family and I left church (Catholics for them) completely and most of Christianity although I didn't realize why at the time. Now I do.
If I can pray to a magic man in the sky and garner favor then that means millions of people and children die because he chose to allow the to die while finding others worthy. He left my beautiful mother die and allowed my miserable father to live on because he deemed her unworthy of life and deemed a horrible human being worthy of living on. That makes him a mother****er and I don't want my gos to be that. That is not a god I will oblige.
Rocag said:Zobel said:Rocag said:
For all that Christians like to say we western atheists are just copying their moral teachings, here is an example where I for one certainly differ. Any deity who would ever create hell as described by many Christians as a place of eternal torment or that would allow such a place to exist is categorically unworthy of worship or praise.
Let's pull on this thread. What are you using as criteria for worthiness of worship?
Like I alluded to in the first sentence of the post, it is judgement based on my own standard of morality. You may think a god that delights in torturing people forever is perfect and ought to be praised. Good for you, I guess. But that's not me.
Now certainly there are versions of Christianity who reject descriptions of hell that are like that, but I was raised Southern Baptist enough to know the verses they point to which back up their concept of hell enough to say that I think they have a reasonable interpretation of the text.
kurt vonnegut said:Zobel said:Rocag said:
For all that Christians like to say we western atheists are just copying their moral teachings, here is an example where I for one certainly differ. Any deity who would ever create hell as described by many Christians as a place of eternal torment or that would allow such a place to exist is categorically unworthy of worship or praise.
Let's pull on this thread. What are you using as criteria for worthiness of worship?
From a Christian perspective, are you to use our own criteria? My understanding is that Christians say we are called to choose God and that we are not asked to do so blindly.
To evaluate God as worthy of being chosen based on God's own criteria would be meaningless / tautological. Its like if I asked you to evaluate the best kind of pizza using only the input of "Pepperoni pizza is best". Any response that does not state pepperoni as the best is non-sensical. Similarly, if there is a God that imposes Himself as objectively good and the definition of worthy of worship, then any personal evaluation of God or personal decision to choose God is non-sensical. We are simply meant to obey without question.
If I don't get to decide that God is worthy of worship, is the implication that the worthiness of God has been predetermined to me and that I am not permitted individuality?
dermdoc said:Martin Q. Blank said:
We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.
If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.
At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.
What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.
Where? If you are talking Matthew 25:46, which is the only verse in the Bible that possibly says that, as your one verse, I think you really have to look at the original Greek. A lot of this is based on eisegesis and not exegesis as there is a pre conceived bias for some towards ECT hell. And what separates the sheep and the goats? Faith? Sinner's prayer? Baptism? Church attendance? None of those. It is all about actions. Visiting the prisoner, etc. I find it so strange that the inerrant Scripture folks seem to disregard exact wording of Scripture.
And if what you say is true, how much of your life are you devoting to warning people about ECT hell? I mean, this should consume you 24/7. It should definitely be the most important thing preached about. If all our life is about is avoiding hell and warning others about it, we should not work, have families, etc.
Nothing in this life should matter except avoiding ECT hell. And spending 24/7 preaching this to everyone. If you really love them.
That is not in the Bible I read.
Martin Q. Blank said:dermdoc said:Martin Q. Blank said:
We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.
If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.
At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.
What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.
Where? If you are talking Matthew 25:46, which is the only verse in the Bible that possibly says that, as your one verse, I think you really have to look at the original Greek. A lot of this is based on eisegesis and not exegesis as there is a pre conceived bias for some towards ECT hell. And what separates the sheep and the goats? Faith? Sinner's prayer? Baptism? Church attendance? None of those. It is all about actions. Visiting the prisoner, etc. I find it so strange that the inerrant Scripture folks seem to disregard exact wording of Scripture.
And if what you say is true, how much of your life are you devoting to warning people about ECT hell? I mean, this should consume you 24/7. It should definitely be the most important thing preached about. If all our life is about is avoiding hell and warning others about it, we should not work, have families, etc.
Nothing in this life should matter except avoiding ECT hell. And spending 24/7 preaching this to everyone. If you really love them.
That is not in the Bible I read.
We disagree and that's ok. We're both Christians and God still loves me. He's not going to annihilate me just because of my beliefs on eternity. Shalom.
Quote:
It seems logical to assume it does seeing as how nearly every deity in every religion desires it in some form or another. Now that sort of presumes that the deities and the idea of worship itself aren't both human inventions, but we'll grant that assumption for the purpose of this discussion. Why a deity would want/require worship isn't really important here, just that they presumably do.
Quote:
Why would a god that needs or wants for nothing bother to create anything?
Martin Q. Blank said:
We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.
If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.
At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.
What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.
Martin Q. Blank said:Quote:
Why would a god that needs or wants for nothing bother to create anything?
That's a great question. Ever thought about it?
Dan Carlin said:Martin Q. Blank said:
We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.
If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.
At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.
What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.
our system of justice is generally one of retribution and not restoration, because that is innate to the human condition. We put people to death for the worst of crimes because that is all we know how to do.
But what if restoration were possible? What if someone who murdered a child could be rehabilitated and become a healing member of society? I think that path would be preferred over vengefully ending their life.
I reject the evangelical perspective of Hell because it seems to be based on that same principle, one of vengeance and retribution, yet grossly masked as "justice". Nah, the kind of god that pulls that stuff isn't my jam.
Rocag said:
Does worship have value? It seems logical to assume it does seeing as how nearly every deity in every religion desires it in some form or another. Now that sort of presumes that the deities and the idea of worship itself aren't both human inventions, but we'll grant that assumption for the purpose of this discussion. Why a deity would want/require worship isn't really important here, just that they presumably do.
Is my individual worship important? Seeing as how I am not in any observable way special when compared to the other seven or so billion humans living on the planet, perhaps not. Or at least not any more than anyone else's worship or value. But my time and effort do have particular value to me and in general I disagree with the idea that individual action doesn't matter in the face of overwhelming numbers. Kind of the same mindset that says why bother voting when you're just one of tens of millions of people who will also be voting in the same election.
Your post sort of touches on what do we mean when we say worship, which I think is a valid point. Is it simply risk avoidance? I sacrifice a goat and receive a good harvest in turn? If we're reducing gods down to cosmic vending machines then that's fine and I have no particular issue with bartering. But most people mean more than that when they talk about worship. It's not transactional, it's about love and respect towards that deity. It's also about putting your trust in that deity. So when I say that a deity which creates hell and predestines people to be sent there isn't worth our worship what I'm implying is that they do not deserve our trust or respect. Why would you trust an entity who might be planning on torturing you for eternity and there's nothing you can do about it?
Again you act like the fact I don't claim objective truth is a flaw because I can't force my beliefs on others. But that's not my intent to begin with. Crowing that my argument is incapable of proving something objectively true when I deny any opinion on the subject can be objectively true isn't a victory.
Aggrad08 said:
rThe issue with any eternal hell is coming up with a logic that justifies it. What is gods purpose in eternal suffering, what is he trying to accomplish?
If you think of all the reasons we've come up with to rationally dole out punishment including the death penalty they all fall short of justifying any sort of eternal punishment
kurt vonnegut said:Martin Q. Blank said:Quote:
Why would a god that needs or wants for nothing bother to create anything?
That's a great question. Ever thought about it?
Lots, but I don't get very far with it.
-----
Some other thoughts -
I think that if we grant the existence of the type of God that Christians believe in, it becomes very difficult for us to decipher much as it relates to the nature or goals of such a God. You can point to examples of where you believe God has communicated those things to us, but this still results in finite 'knowledge' over an infinite being which is zero.
In short, if you propose a God that is sufficiently infinite and powerful, we simply cannot know what we don't know. It seems like human reason and logic will always fail to really capture and understand such a God. And my take is that the Bible pretty well confirms to us that this is intended or expected.
So, enter faith - a lived orientation of trust or commitment toward meanings, values, or realities that are not fully verifiable by objective evidence but are experienced subjectively and as personally compelling or true. In this sense, faith is subjectively real even when objectively uncertain. The idea of eternal consequences out of this model for belief feels unreasonable. But, like I said, we've set up human reason to be a poor tool for understanding God. So, what should I have faith in? Whatever I feel? Whatever subjectively feels compelling or true? I'm picturing Jeff Bridges saying something like 'Its just like my opinion, man'.
. . . except we've introduced eternal consequences for the wrong faith or no faith. And we have the possibility of my own torture because my subjective experience is wrong. What does that mean? And how is that indistinguishable from saying that I'm going to Hell because I was made wrong?
You can believe that Creation is for our benefit. And you can believe that worship is for our benefit as well. But, I didn't ask to be created. And I didn't ask to be born at a particular time, place, or set of conditions. And I wasn't consulted in deciding the 'rules' for what is good and bad, or how salvation works, or what the afterlife is like. And there is only so much that I can do to control my subjective experience. I am an intentionally created flawed being with insufficient reason and experience molded by circumstance and an ignorance I cannot control. . . . any introduction of Hell into the result of this equation doesn't just negate the idea that Creation is for our benefit, it flips it on its head.
The glaring problems with hell are the infinite values of it and with the fact that they are imposed intentionally. Any afterlife with eternal torture (whether it be one person or billions) is an afterlife with infinite suffering under a system created and controlled with intention. The idea of a God that uses ECT isn't just evil, its maximally evil. Infinitely evil. At least that is the position that I find to be subjectively compelling.
Martin Q. Blank said:Quote:
Why would a god that needs or wants for nothing bother to create anything?
That's a great question. Ever thought about it?
Martin Q. Blank said:Dan Carlin said:Martin Q. Blank said:
We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.
If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.
At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.
What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.
our system of justice is generally one of retribution and not restoration, because that is innate to the human condition. We put people to death for the worst of crimes because that is all we know how to do.
But what if restoration were possible? What if someone who murdered a child could be rehabilitated and become a healing member of society? I think that path would be preferred over vengefully ending their life.
I reject the evangelical perspective of Hell because it seems to be based on that same principle, one of vengeance and retribution, yet grossly masked as "justice". Nah, the kind of god that pulls that stuff isn't my jam.
I was addressing the eternality of the punishment, but you're saying we shouldn't be punished at all for our sins?
Martin Q. Blank said:
That wasn't my question. You make it sound like we won't be punished at all, even temporarily, in the afterlife.
dermdoc said:Martin Q. Blank said:
That wasn't my question. You make it sound like we won't be punished at all, even temporarily, in the afterlife.
I don't believe we, as believers, will be punished.
The Banned said:
Here is where I think this line of thinking breaks down: If the God of the Bible showed up today and proved beyond all reasonable doubt that the Catholic or Eastern Orthodox was the true Church He established on earth, would you follow all of their prescribed moral laws, or would you reject them anyway? So much is made of "we can't know" with many atheists, but most atheists also say they wouldn't follow His rules even if He did give them perfect knowledge? So how much of the concern is fallible human reasoning versus fallible human reasoning being a convenient excuse of sorts. The one claim Christianity makes that no other relgiion does is that God Himself became man. He gave us a Church. So while human reasoning may be fallible, He's not asking you to do it alone
That may not be you, and I don't mean to say it is. Just my experience.
ETA: The term "torture" is very heavy laden. "Torment" is only used sparingly in Revelations, and who it applies to in interpreted differently. Jesus, when talking about eternity, used words like judgement, fire, separation, etc.
Martin Q. Blank said:
Don't you believe in some temporary punishment for unbelievers and then annihilation?
