Aggrad08 said:

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The Banned said:

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Premise 1: God created humans to live eternally with Him
Premise 2: Some humans will choose not to live eternally with Him
Premise 3: Humans do not lose the eternal quality He created.
Conclusion: Humans will live eternally, but some % will live apart from Him. That existence is called Hell

"Punishment" or "torment" in this scenario can just mean loss of the good that they were supposed to receive had they chosen to receive it. I don't think people in Hell will necessarily believe they made a mistake or have "emotional regret". They will just keep rejecting the God they rejected here on earth, which is it's own, self-inflicted torment. Satan knows full well what he did, but he doesn't seem to have any regrets of any kind, despite his condition.

There are typically two rebuttals here:

Rebuttal 1: If I'm making an eternal choice in a temporal timeline, shouldn't the opportunity to accept or reject this gift be done with full and perfect knowledge? Shouldn't God give us more evidence?

My response: I have yet to meet an atheist who would submit to all the moral teachings of the Catholic or EO church if God was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. I use those two because they are the most ancient and hold the highest bar when it comes to morals (especially the Catholic Church). So what good would God showing up do if you wouldn't be willing to listen any way? This leads to rebuttal 2...

Rebuttal 2: I didn't consent to being born, so why do I have to live for eternity?

My response: This is why some Christians prefer annihilationism. My personal belief that God is Father. He loves all His children, even if they refuse to love Him back. He's not gonna off you just because you hate Him, because killing people that hate you is not love. He would have the non-believer if they'd just relent, but they don't.

We can get into "what about people that never hear about Jesus", but the ancient Churches do not teach those who never hear are auto-banned from Heaven, so it doesn't really move the needle for any but modern evangelical/baptist types.

Edit for clarity

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This all fall apart upon even modest rational scrutiny. First and foremost. Missing out on a reward is not torment. Period. We are *******izing by the word beyond recognition if we make it merely mean this. And if it does the rest of your argument can be shown to fall apart. Because a lack of reward simple does not rationally require suffering. And if hell doesn't have suffering or regret that's fine, but you basically abandoned the premise and there really isn't anything in scripture you can lean on here. In fact hell itself is almost totally absent in scripture. Paul never mentions it. It doesn't exist in the OT. You might find Sheol mistranslated as hell in some versions.

Your first rebuttal is a weird attempt at denying the obvious. It is boldly irrational to think people's behavior wouldn't be affected by knowing with certainty god exists and what he wants. Period end of story. I know mine would be.

The issue with eternity fails in multiple ways. Not only is eternity not chosen, but god leave no room for people to choose him later. With no reason provided and none you can offer.

Is your god so incapable of gaining a relationship with a person he's incapable of achieving that with an eternity to work with?

And offing you is only preferable if hell is a real torture. You've already backed off that premise so completely as one could say in your version there is no such thing as hell. Just somewhere else besides heaven. Because once hell really is eternal torture, god becomes a monster and there is simply no way around it.

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The bolded isn't simply "my version". The early church fathers were not unanimous on what hell is going to be like, and to this day neither the Catholic or EO has ever defined it. You will find "my version" in the writings of multiple fathers. "Torment" was only used in Revelations. Jesus described a punishment, separation, etc. And separation from God, the source of all good, can certainly be a self-inflicted "torment" The fact that you don't make room for this possibility is your own problem, likely stemming from the type of hell you were taught as a child. Just because Pastor Bob over at (insert name) Baptist Church said his version of hell is true doesn't make it so. There is a reason so many men that learned directly from the apostles and their successors never took a firm stance outside of it's eternal existence

My first rebuttal isn't irrational. It is anecdotal. It can definitely be proven wrong. I've just yet to hear anyone give me to opposite response. So I'll ask you: If God proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Catholic Church was 100% right, would you follow all of the moral prescriptions of the Church? Teachings on LGBT, contraception, abortion, confession, etc. You'd do a 180 on all those and more?

And I specifically said God would love for all people to choose Him. I also said those people simply won't want to. It's not what He's incapable of. It's the hardness of heart and pride that humans are capable of that screws things up. If your answer to my question above is "no", why should you expect it to change after death?

First no. Let's go list everything Jesus "said" about Hell. It's not a lot but it's irreconcilable with merely missing out on something good. It's also purely an invention of the gospels. It has no backing in Paul or the OT.

Second you don't address anything above. It's a logical failure that you are stuck with.

You can't say "hell" is a persons active choice unless they can actively leave. No way around it. You cannot assign a purpose to hell unless existing in hell is unquestionably better than not existing.

I'm not the one caught up on Baptist hell. That's so self defeating I could handle it in one sentence. You are so caught up with the idea of avoiding the ETC Baptist hell that you are failing to realize virtually ANY version of "Hell" that isn't just you know more life like we currently have more or less, is going to be very difficult to logically defend.

Oh and to answer your question if I was 100% convinced of the full truth of Catholicism I'd likely be a better catholic than you. Since I would never even have the challenge of the uncertainty inherent in faith. Yes I'd follow it. So now your incredibly obviously flawed premise has an easy counter.

It's baffling to me you think that wouldn't change people's behavior.

Aggrad08 said:

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First no. Let's go list everything Jesus "said" about Hell. It's not a lot but it's irreconcilable with merely missing out on something good. It's also purely an invention of the gospels. It has no backing in Paul or the OT.

Second you don't address anything above. It's a logical failure that you are stuck with.

You can't say "hell" is a persons active choice unless they can actively leave. No way around it. You cannot assign a purpose to hell unless existing in hell is unquestionably better than not existing.

I'm not the one caught up on Baptist hell. That's so self defeating I could handle it in one sentence. You are so caught up with the idea of avoiding the ETC Baptist hell that you are failing to realize virtually ANY version of "Hell" that isn't just you know more life like we currently have more or less, is going to be very difficult to logically defend.

Oh and to answer your question if I was 100% convinced of the full truth of Catholicism I'd likely be a better catholic than you. Since I would never even have the challenge of the uncertainty inherent in faith. Yes I'd follow it. So now your incredibly obviously flawed premise has an easy counter.

It's baffling to me you think that wouldn't change people's behavior.

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He never used the word "torment" that you're so focused on. He talked about separtion, being left out, punishment, etc. We call it "hell" but you can just use the word eternal place if it's giving you that much heartburn.

I don't know what I'm leaving unaddressed. People choose to be apart from God. That was their choice. You can argue it's not a fully informed choice if you want (which I addressed when I mentioned invincible ignorance with Kurt) but how we live our life is still our choice. I don't think people separated from God will want to repent. Satan certainly doesn't. And in the one parable from Jesus on the afterlife, the rich man never indicates he wants to leave. He wants some water. He wants to warn his family members that are still alive. But he isn't repenting either.

I'm not caught up with the idea of "avoiding" anything. I am offering a version of hell that has existed in Christian thought since it's inception. It's not some novel concept. Fire and brimstone has never been any sort of official stance taken through the ages, but you seem to be saying that anything less isn't hell and that I'm completely reworking the definitions, which isn't true. If that's not what you're saying, I'd ask you to be clearer in how you try to get that across.

To the bolded, we have plenty of things that are 100% known to be true, and it doesn't change people's behaviors. They still avoid the gym, pound sugar filled crap foods, don't work hard to fix their careers, their marriages, their parenting styles and any number of bad behaviors. Surely you can agree that people can know they should do something and still not do it. If you believe you'd be a great Catholic with enough evidence, that's fantastic! You are the first one out of about 60 atheist friends/coworkers/acquaintances that has admitted that. Still, my premise isn't flawed because it was admittedly anecdotal from the start. You broke the mold. Congrats

I don't think you actually read anything I wrote. I'm not talking fire and brimstone. As I said you are the one hung up on that. Read what I wrote. Respond to that

kurt vonnegut said:

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BrazosDog02 said:

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Church standards and methods change through time. I can't say for sure, but I'd probably still be going to church if had a a guy like that putting some fire to my ass earlier on in life.

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I suppose different people can respond differently to the same message - a guy like that would have had me packing my bags and leaving the church even earlier than I did. Fear is a powerful motivator. But, it wasn't ever my interpretation that fear was the primary tool of choice by Jesus in bringing people to God. Aside from a few comments here and there, the accounts of Jesus do not have him speaking to people in this manner with hysterical threats of eternal torture. It has always seemed to me that this form of theater serves the speaker more than it serves any God.

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People talking like this had 19 year old sea speed thinking that if I even thought a curse word without repenting before I fell asleep would send me to hell. It is absurd to preach this type of nonsense to children. Obviously not what is going on here, but point remains.

Sea Speed said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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BrazosDog02 said:

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Church standards and methods change through time. I can't say for sure, but I'd probably still be going to church if had a a guy like that putting some fire to my ass earlier on in life.

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I suppose different people can respond differently to the same message - a guy like that would have had me packing my bags and leaving the church even earlier than I did. Fear is a powerful motivator. But, it wasn't ever my interpretation that fear was the primary tool of choice by Jesus in bringing people to God. Aside from a few comments here and there, the accounts of Jesus do not have him speaking to people in this manner with hysterical threats of eternal torture. It has always seemed to me that this form of theater serves the speaker more than it serves any God.

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People talking like this had 19 year old sea speed thinking that if I even thought a curse word without repenting before I fell asleep would send me to hell. It is absurd to preach this type of nonsense to children. Obviously not what is going on here, but point remains.

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Am I the only one who actually tries to conceive the concept of ECT hell? And can't? ETERNAl conscious torment. For just disbelief? Does that seem just, merciful, or loving to anyone?

I meant 10 year old sea speed, but made the typo of 19. This should make the rest of my post make more sense.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

The crux of all this is the assumption that we experience time in the same way (succession of moments) and the same proportionality. Anyone got any reason or justification for that assumption?

BonfireNerd04 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

dermdoc said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think". Who are you to say what God deems to be justice?

light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

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To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

Derm, I'm interested to know what you make of the Devil, demons, fallen angels, etc…?

Do you think they're symbolic? If not, are they permanently fixtures of Hell? Curious your take on this.

light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

TeddyAg0422 said:

---

Derm, I'm interested to know what you make of the Devil, demons, fallen angels, etc…?

Do you think they're symbolic? If not, are they permanently fixtures of Hell? Curious your take on this.

---

They are real. And hell is real. It is just corrective and not eternal.

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

Because He created you and loves you. And knowing Him makes life a lot better.

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

Because He created you and loves you. And knowing Him makes life a lot better.

---

I get to go to heaven either way… fantastic!

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

Because He created you and loves you. And knowing Him makes life a lot better.

---

I get to go to heaven either way… fantastic!

---

One way there is no punishment. The other way there is. A corrective punishment which will not be pleasant.

Plus you will miss out on the most abundant life you can have. Christ in you. There is no other way to peace and joy. And trust me people have tried everything.

And Scripture is pretty clear that we don't "go to heaven". God comes down to earth and everything is made new. And we dwell in His presence forever with no pain, death, sorrow, or tears.

Well, heaven would be the intermediate state where our souls would be until all things are made new here on Earth.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Well, heaven would be the intermediate state where our souls would be until all things are made new here on Earth.

---

I never thought about calling that state heaven but Jesus called it paradise so it fits. Can't wait to be in the presence of my Lord and Savior.

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

Because He created you and loves you. And knowing Him makes life a lot better.

---

I get to go to heaven either way… fantastic!

---

And if you want to discuss the Gospel or the difference Jesus has made in my life, happy to do it.

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Well, heaven would be the intermediate state where our souls would be until all things are made new here on Earth.

---

I never thought about calling that state heaven but Jesus called it paradise so it fits. Can't wait to be in the presence of my Lord and Savior.

---

Last two verses of the Bible...amen!

Revelation 22:20-21
He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Well, heaven would be the intermediate state where our souls would be until all things are made new here on Earth.

---

I never thought about calling that state heaven but Jesus called it paradise so it fits. Can't wait to be in the presence of my Lord and Savior.

---

Last two verses of the Bible...amen!

Revelation 22:20-21
He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

---

To live is Christ, to die is gain.

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

Because He created you and loves you. And knowing Him makes life a lot better.

---

If everyone goes to heaven eventually, then there is fundamentally no need for a belief in Jesus to be saved, no need to even believe in God, and no real point in sharing the gospel. All of that is directly contrary to the core tenets of Christianity.

If you're not a Christian, then that's fine because none of that probably matters to you anyway. But if you do claim to be a Christian, that viewpoint has no biblical support and is irreconcilable with the teachings of Christ. Any references in the Bible to "all men" are clarified by Jesus repeatedly as meaning that salvation is available to all men should they choose to accept it, not that all men will be saved regardless of what they believe.

It sounds like you're arguing for an absence of eternal hell to reassure yourself that you're eventually going to heaven either way. It's normal to seek reassurance of your salvation, but you won't get any reassurance by twisting the words of scripture to mean something directly contrary to what Jesus teaches. That's pointless.

AozorAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

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Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

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I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

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And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

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I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

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You lose at the words "I don't think".

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I have no idea what you are saying.

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You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

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He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

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To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

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First of all, define hell.

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If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

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Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

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Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

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Because He created you and loves you. And knowing Him makes life a lot better.

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If everyone goes to heaven eventually, then there is fundamentally no need for a belief in Jesus to be saved, no need to even believe in God, and no real point in sharing the gospel. All of that is directly contrary to the core tenets of Christianity.

If you're not a Christian, then that's fine because none of that probably matters to you anyway. But if you do claim to be a Christian, that viewpoint has no biblical support and is irreconcilable with the teachings of Christ. Any references in the Bible to "all men" are clarified by Jesus repeatedly as meaning that salvation is available to all men should they choose to accept it, not that all men will be saved regardless of what they believe.

It sounds like you're arguing for an absence of eternal hell to reassure yourself that you're eventually going to heaven either way. It's normal to seek reassurance of your salvation, but you won't get any reassurance by twisting the words of scripture to mean something directly contrary to what Jesus teaches. That's pointless.

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Why did Jesus say that He came? And where is a Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from Hell?

I believe in hell as a corrective punishment which is limited in duration. Jesus had to come to overcome sin and death. And salvation is a restoration ongoing thing, not just a get out of heel card. Jesus never preached that. Paul never mentioned hell. To my knowledge there is only one verse in Scripture that talks about eternal punishment and that is Matthew 25:46. And there are huge debates on the translation of that verse.
Every other "hell" verse has eternal fire or destruction. Not punishment.

I believe salvation is ontological, not judicial. And I am very much a born again Christian. Christ lives in me. I used to be worried about my salvation but have full assurance now. And there are plenty of Christians, even saints, who agree with me.

May I ask if you think it is just to administer eternal conscious torment for simple disbelief? I do not think it is. And I know Gid is just.

And if I truly believed in ECT hell, I would not have had kids because they might go there. I would never get married, never work, and spend all my time earn it by people of ECT hell. That would be the main focus of my life 24/7.

What is strange is Jesus, Paul and all the other apostles rarely spoke of eternal destinations. The word Gehenna or Hell does not appear in Acts.

Seems weird as that should be the most important thing in the Gospel. I mean avoiding ECT hell should consume us. And it should have consumed Jesus and the apostles. But it didn't.

light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

AozorAg said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

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So you're saying that Christianity needs the threat of eternal hell to be relevant? That it doesn't improve anyone's life in this world enough for people to follow it?