Martin Q. Blank said:

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That wasn't my question. You make it sound like we won't be punished at all, even temporarily, in the afterlife.

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Like I said, if the Christian view of a redemptive arc is true, then correct-- I don't believe in a "punishment" in afterlife. The redemptive power is inconsistent with a vengeful, punishing god.

kurt vonnegut said:

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I'm sure that some would and some would not. But, maybe more importantly (since there are more of them), A lot of Muslims and Jews and Hindus and other people would be brought to the 'correct' teachings. From your perspective, it isn't just the atheists that are in error.

I don't fully know how I would personally respond God showing up and laying out the truth. I have far more objections to religious institutions than I do to Jesus himself - meaning that I think that I admire a lot about Jesus and I fail to see the things I admire about Jesus in much of modern Christianity. So . . . . whether I would fall to my knees and follow God kinda depends on what is being presented. I think that is a fair answer if Christians believe we are asked to follow God and choose God rather than follow authority blindly.

One thing is for certain though - we would all be able to make better informed decisions. Consider an analogy of a dating couple versus an old married couple. A dating couple may say they love each other and they may choose each other and trust each other even though they haven't known each other very long. A couple that has been married for decades may decide to love each other and trust each other even though they know all of the short comings and flaws of the other person. Not saying that God has flaws . . . . only that better knowledge of someone allows for a deeper more meaningful love and relationship. My wife has seen me at low points and still chooses me. That means more than the fact that she choose me before those low points.


This question can be turned around also. If Allah showed up today and proved beyond all reasonable doubt that the [insert your Islamic tradition of choice] is the true faith, would Christians follow all prescribed moral laws? Probably some would and some would not for similar reasons. People of all types can be stubborn.

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To your first paragraph, that's why we have the doctrine of "invincible ignorance". Just because someone has not heard of Jesus doesn't auto-deny them eternity with God. There are church fathers going back to the 2nd century talking about how some of even the Greek philosophers were "Christian" before Christ was even born. Each is asked to act in accordance with what he has received. So your "subjective experience" concern can be met with "subjective judgement" in a way, because only God knows the heart of each individual.

I like your marriage analogy and would like to build upon that. The old couple only has the benefit of more fully loving each other because they took the plunge to intertwine their lives. Those marriage vows are an act of faith in the other. No one really knows all the issues that their new spouse may or may not be hiding, or what they may or may not choose in the future. Faith in God isn't really that much more of a reach than faith in a successful marriage when you really consider all the variables.

Yes, if Allah showed up today and offered irrefutable proof that Islam was the one true religion, I would follow. If He is the maker of the entire universe, it stands to reason He is going to have a really solid understanding of what we're made for. I'm as close to 100% confident as I can be that it would never happen, as Quran says the Bible is uncorrupted. The same Bible that shows Islam to be false because it calls Jesus God and says He established a Church to be followed by all believers. I don't see a reality in which God tells me a 4 sided circle exists, so I'm pretty sure I don't have to worry about that issues.

ETA: to the part about Christians choosing to follow God: yes, we do. But I think all but the most saintly of Christians would say that choice includes being beholden to some moral demands most would rather not be held to. The only thing God is "presenting" would be the knowledge that He created the entire universe and knows what's best. You either assent to that or say that you're smarter/better than the Creator Himself.

Dan Carlin said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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That wasn't my question. You make it sound like we won't be punished at all, even temporarily, in the afterlife.

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Like I said, if the Christian view of a redemptive arc is true, then correct-- I don't believe in a "punishment" in afterlife. The redemptive power is inconsistent with a vengeful, punishing god.

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And what if the non-believer doesn't want to change, even after the truth becomes obvious? What if the "punishment" is self-inflicted?

Dan Carlin said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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That wasn't my question. You make it sound like we won't be punished at all, even temporarily, in the afterlife.

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Like I said, if the Christian view of a redemptive arc is true, then correct-- I don't believe in a "punishment" in afterlife. The redemptive power is inconsistent with a vengeful, punishing god.

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You speak of "the Christian view." The Bible (and Christianity) speaks of a punishment in the afterlife.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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That wasn't my question. You make it sound like we won't be punished at all, even temporarily, in the afterlife.

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I don't believe we, as believers, will be punished.

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Don't you believe in some temporary punishment for unbelievers and then annihilation?

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I believe in ultimate reconciliation. Temporary punishment for correction. All will be made new.

So basically no Hell, but rather Purgatory?

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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That wasn't my question. You make it sound like we won't be punished at all, even temporarily, in the afterlife.

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I don't believe we, as believers, will be punished.

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Don't you believe in some temporary punishment for unbelievers and then annihilation?

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I believe in ultimate reconciliation. Temporary punishment for correction. All will be made new.

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Ok, so universalism. For some reason I thought you believed in annihilationism.

The Banned said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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rThe issue with any eternal hell is coming up with a logic that justifies it. What is gods purpose in eternal suffering, what is he trying to accomplish?

If you think of all the reasons we've come up with to rationally dole out punishment including the death penalty they all fall short of justifying any sort of eternal punishment

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This again leads to the question: Can "punishment" not be self inflicted in the form of natural consequences? If I choose not to do any work, I will be "punished" by society by being a poor, homeless individual. It all depends on how you interpret "punishment" in the arena of eternal life, and that definition was never fully defined by the early church. I don't care what some random baptist pastor wants to say it means, but I can see why people raised in that tradition might.

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There is no such thing as "natural consequences" here. The "nature" was chosen by god. And therefore requires a purpose. So I'll ask, what's the rational purpose?

Aggrad08 said:

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The Banned said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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rThe issue with any eternal hell is coming up with a logic that justifies it. What is gods purpose in eternal suffering, what is he trying to accomplish?

If you think of all the reasons we've come up with to rationally dole out punishment including the death penalty they all fall short of justifying any sort of eternal punishment

---

This again leads to the question: Can "punishment" not be self inflicted in the form of natural consequences? If I choose not to do any work, I will be "punished" by society by being a poor, homeless individual. It all depends on how you interpret "punishment" in the arena of eternal life, and that definition was never fully defined by the early church. I don't care what some random baptist pastor wants to say it means, but I can see why people raised in that tradition might.

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There is no such thing as "natural consequences" here. The "nature" was chosen by god. And therefore requires a purpose. So I'll ask, what's the rational purpose?

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The only nature God chose was the nature He gave Adam and Eve: to stay in communion with Him. Now we can choose to go against that nature, as they clearly did, and when we do so there are "natural" consequences. Unless we're really trying to parse terms between natural and supernatural, I think this gets the point across.

Now to what purpose? God loves His creation. He wants His creation to participate in His divine glory. Not all of his creation will choose to do that. Not that different than how a parent can love a wayward child as much as they can and the wayward child never returns. It's heartbreaking, but it happens. The only workaround for God making sure every single created human ends up in eternal bliss in His presence is to force people to desire presence with Him, overriding the free will He gave us.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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That wasn't my question. You make it sound like we won't be punished at all, even temporarily, in the afterlife.

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I don't believe we, as believers, will be punished.

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Don't you believe in some temporary punishment for unbelievers and then annihilation?

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I believe in ultimate reconciliation. Temporary punishment for correction. All will be made new.

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Ok, so universalism. For some reason I thought you believed in annihilationism.

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Universalism is a term that is tossed around fairly casually. Not saying you are doing that, but Christian ultimate reconciliation involves corrective punishment. It is not just everybody gets to be in the presence of God with no punishment.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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That wasn't my question. You make it sound like we won't be punished at all, even temporarily, in the afterlife.

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I don't believe we, as believers, will be punished.

---

Don't you believe in some temporary punishment for unbelievers and then annihilation?

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I believe in ultimate reconciliation. Temporary punishment for correction. All will be made new.

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Ok, so universalism. For some reason I thought you believed in annihilationism.

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Universalism is a term that is tossed around fairly casually. Not saying you are doing that, but Christian ultimate reconciliation involves corrective punishment. It is not just everybody gets to be in the presence of God with no punishment.

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Yes, it's a form of universalism. So you believe in purgatory, a temporary punishment. I incorrectly thought you believed in annihilationism after that.

The Banned said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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The Banned said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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rThe issue with any eternal hell is coming up with a logic that justifies it. What is gods purpose in eternal suffering, what is he trying to accomplish?

If you think of all the reasons we've come up with to rationally dole out punishment including the death penalty they all fall short of justifying any sort of eternal punishment

---

This again leads to the question: Can "punishment" not be self inflicted in the form of natural consequences? If I choose not to do any work, I will be "punished" by society by being a poor, homeless individual. It all depends on how you interpret "punishment" in the arena of eternal life, and that definition was never fully defined by the early church. I don't care what some random baptist pastor wants to say it means, but I can see why people raised in that tradition might.

---

There is no such thing as "natural consequences" here. The "nature" was chosen by god. And therefore requires a purpose. So I'll ask, what's the rational purpose?

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The only nature God chose was the nature He gave Adam and Eve: to stay in communion with Him. Now we can choose to go against that nature, as they clearly did, and when we do so there are "natural" consequences. Unless we're really trying to parse terms between natural and supernatural, I think this gets the point across.

Now to what purpose? God loves His creation. He wants His creation to participate in His divine glory. Not all of his creation will choose to do that. Not that different than how a parent can love a wayward child as much as they can and the wayward child never returns. It's heartbreaking, but it happens. The only workaround for God making sure every single created human ends up in eternal bliss in His presence is to force people to desire presence with Him, overriding the free will He gave us.

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Yeah none of that answers the question. None of that demonstrates a logical goal that is satisfied. Eternal torment is simply not the logical consequence here. Even if we say a heaven of mindlessly worshiping god with no free will would not be chosen that doesn't leave a hell as the alternative

"I believe in ultimate reconciliation. Temporary punishment for correction. All will be made new"

Scripture says it appointed unto man to die, then the judgment. The is no purgatory or ultimate reconciliation once you die. Either it will be a sinner's judgement or a believer's judgement.

If it is a sinner's judgment (rejecting Christ and his work on the cross for the forgiveness of sins), then unfortunately eternal punishment awaits them. Sorry, but that's what I believe. People have this life to be reconciled with God, afterwards all bets are off.

As far as hell, there are scriptures that describe it as a place we don't want to go, and don't have to go:

From the mouth of Jesus…"Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, 'Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons."
Matthew 25:41 NLT
https://bible.com/bible/116/mat.25.41.NLT

And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb."
Revelation 14:10 NLT

Aggrad08 said:

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The Banned said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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The Banned said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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The issue with any eternal hell is coming up with a logic that justifies it. What is gods purpose in eternal suffering, what is he trying to accomplish?

If you think of all the reasons we've come up with to rationally dole out punishment including the death penalty they all fall short of justifying any sort of eternal punishment

---

This again leads to the question: Can "punishment" not be self inflicted in the form of natural consequences? If I choose not to do any work, I will be "punished" by society by being a poor, homeless individual. It all depends on how you interpret "punishment" in the arena of eternal life, and that definition was never fully defined by the early church. I don't care what some random baptist pastor wants to say it means, but I can see why people raised in that tradition might.

---

There is no such thing as "natural consequences" here. The "nature" was chosen by god. And therefore requires a purpose. So I'll ask, what's the rational purpose?

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The only nature God chose was the nature He gave Adam and Eve: to stay in communion with Him. Now we can choose to go against that nature, as they clearly did, and when we do so there are "natural" consequences. Unless we're really trying to parse terms between natural and supernatural, I think this gets the point across.

Now to what purpose? God loves His creation. He wants His creation to participate in His divine glory. Not all of his creation will choose to do that. Not that different than how a parent can love a wayward child as much as they can and the wayward child never returns. It's heartbreaking, but it happens. The only workaround for God making sure every single created human ends up in eternal bliss in His presence is to force people to desire presence with Him, overriding the free will He gave us.

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Yeah none of that answers the question. None of that demonstrates a logical goal that is satisfied. Eternal torment is simply not the logical consequence here. Even if we say a heaven of mindlessly worshiping god with no free will would not be chosen that doesn't leave a hell as the alternative

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I think we're speaking past each other. How do you define eternal torment? Is it something being done to the person (like a torture chamber), or something the person experiences as a result of their choices (like the person got drunk, drove, and killed their child and they beat themselves up for the rest of their life)?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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I didn't watch the video. I just think an eternal hell is logical when considering the punishment Christ endured, Scriptural, and based on church tradition. I get others don't agree, but that doesn't mean God is going to annihilate me or keep me in purgatory until I relent.

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So just curious, who do you believe will be in ECT hell?
Will the folks who never heard of Jesus be there? Will unbaptized babies be there? Will the non elect pre ordained to hell in Calvinist theology be there? The list goes on and on.

And who is administering the punishment? God? And is it active torture with no possible change or repentance? What do you think is God's purpose for that?

And it is interesting that whenever there is a "hell" parable, judgement is always based on actions. Sheep and goats, Lazarus and the rich man, etc. all are based on how people treated the poor, prisoners, etc. James talks about caring for widows and orphans.
No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No baptism. No right theology. It is all based on how one treated the marginalized in this life.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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I didn't watch the video. I just think an eternal hell is logical when considering the punishment Christ endured, Scriptural, and based on church tradition. I get others don't agree, but that doesn't mean God is going to annihilate me or keep me in purgatory until I relent.

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So just curious, who do you believe will be in ECT hell?
Will the folks who never heard of Jesus be there? Will unbaptized babies be there? Will the non elect pre ordained to hell in Calvinist theology be there? The list goes on and on.

And who is administering the punishment? God? And is it active torture with no possible change or repentance? What do you think is God's purpose for that?

And it is interesting that whenever there is a "hell" parable, judgement is always based on actions. Sheep and goats, Lazarus and the rich man, etc. all are based on how people treated the poor, prisoners, etc. James talks about caring for widows and orphans.
No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No baptism. No right theology. It is all based on how one treated the marginalized in this life.

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So just curious, who do you believe will be in ECT hell? Probably the same you believe will be in temporary hell.
Will the folks who never heard of Jesus be there? I'm not sure. Jesus and Paul both seem to indicate they are condemned.
Will unbaptized babies be there? I'm not sure, the Bible doesn't say one way or the other.
Will the non elect pre ordained to hell in Calvinist theology be there? If they are pre ordained to hell in Calvinist theology, then of course.
And who is administering the punishment? God? Yes, don't you? Or do you think it's some demon.
And is it active torture with no possible change or repentance? Yes, no possible change. Similar to demons now.
What do you think is God's purpose for that? Punishment for sin. Just like Jesus on the cross.

Can you give your Biblical justification for purgatory?

I think eternal or temporary has implications on what we believe about our sin, its severity, our satisfaction for it, and Christ's satisfaction for it on the cross.

Similar to what Martin said, our understanding of what the afterlife holds affects how we view the faith on this earth. We see atheists on this thread that had a Baptist type upbringings that came to find that doctrine of hell (God delights in the punishment of those in hell) to be so unpalatable that it leads to doubting the entire faith. IN the denominations/groups that tout universalism, we see actions that have been held as sin since the very beginning are now seen as A OK.

Your particular question isn't that harmful, but what happens downstream from there certainly can be.

The Banned said:

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Similar to what Martin said, our understanding of what the afterlife holds affects how we view the faith on this earth. We see atheists on this thread that had a Baptist type upbringings that came to find that doctrine of hell (God delights in the punishment of those in hell) to be so unpalatable that it leads to doubting the entire faith. IN the denominations/groups that tout universalism, we see actions that have been held as sin since the very beginning are now seen as A OK.

Your particular question isn't that harmful, but what happens downstream from there certainly can be.

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I hate sin a lot more since I dropped ECT hell theology because now I see how good God truly is. And much, much more vocal about sharing my faith and the Gospel as it really is good news.
Can anyone show me a Scripture where Jesus said He came to save us from ECT hell? And He spoke a lot about why He came.
Also, no response to my comment about works being in all the jell parables? No sinner's prayer. No altar call. Nothing about anything except feed the poor, care for prisoners, etc.

Quote:

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I hate sin a lot more since I dropped ECT hell theology because now I see how good God truly is. And much, much more vocal about sharing my faith and the Gospel as it really is good news.

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This is good! Will you also agree that we're seeing LGBT, divorce and remarriage, and a countless list of other sins being "no big deal" anymore in many denominations? I get that it helps you, but we're watching millions upon millions of self professed Christians call sin good right now

Quote:

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Can anyone show me a Scripture where Jesus said He came to save us from ECT hell? And He spoke a lot about why He came.

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I'm fine with saying he didn't come to "save us from hell". That's an evangelical/baptist way of pitching it. He calls us to follow Him. And He also says those that don't follow Him will be tossed out of the Kingdom and there will be suffering that goes along with it. When He does say this, he does not say it's temporary. He uses the same word for eternal there as He does when he talks of eternal life (anionion)

Quote:

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Also, no response to my comment about works being in all the jell parables? No sinner's prayer. No altar call. Nothing about anything except feed the poor, care for prisoners, etc.

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You don't need to convince me here. Faithfulness to God means following His commands, as Jesus clearly says. If you don't follow His will, then you aren't living out your faith.

The Banned said:

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Quote:

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I hate sin a lot more since I dropped ECT hell theology because now I see how good God truly is. And much, much more vocal about sharing my faith and the Gospel as it really is good news.

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This is good! Will you also agree that we're seeing LGBT, divorce and remarriage, and a countless list of other sins being "no big deal" anymore in many denominations? I get that it helps you, but we're watching millions upon millions of self professed Christians call sin good right now

Quote:

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Can anyone show me a Scripture where Jesus said He came to save us from ECT hell? And He spoke a lot about why He came.

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I'm fine with saying he didn't come to "save us from hell". That's an evangelical/baptist way of pitching it. He calls us to follow Him. And He also says those that don't follow Him will be tossed out of the Kingdom and there will be suffering that goes along with it. When He does say this, he does not say it's temporary. He uses the same word for eternal there as He does when he talks of eternal life (anionion)

Quote:

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Also, no response to my comment about works being in all the jell parables? No sinner's prayer. No altar call. Nothing about anything except feed the poor, care for prisoners, etc.

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You don't need to convince me here. Faithfulness to God means following His commands, as Jesus clearly says. If you don't follow His will, then you aren't living out your faith.

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Good post. It is fascinating that Sr. Augustine was, to my knowledge, the first to translate anionion that way as that word can be translated differently depending on which noun it is associated with. There have been entire books written about that so it is obviously debatable. As is the word for punishment which is kolasis. Kolasis usually means a pruning or corrective punishment and timoria is the word for retributive punishment.

And to be honest, as long as someone does not say Christ followers are going to hell if they don't believe In their version of ECT hell like the pastor in the op video (which is not anywhere in Scripture) what someone believes about hell is not salvific.

dermdoc said:

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And to be honest, as long as someone does not say Christ followers are going to hell if they don't believe In their version of ECT hell like the pastor in the op video (which is not anywhere in Scripture) what someone believes about hell is not salvific.

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If hell is eternal, but there is no double predestination/Calvinistic reasons people end up there, is that something that would shake your faith or would you accept it and continue to follow?

The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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And to be honest, as long as someone does not say Christ followers are going to hell if they don't believe In their version of ECT hell like the pastor in the op video (which is not anywhere in Scripture) what someone believes about hell is not salvific.

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If hell is eternal, but there is no double predestination/Calvinistic reasons people end up there, is that something that would shake your faith or would you accept it and continue to follow?

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No, it would not shake my faith at all. If people choose to reject God via their free will and end up in "hell" (think CS Lewis's The great Divorce) it does not go against the character of God as expressed in the totality of Scripture.

I can not read the totality of Scripture and believe God pre ordains people to ECT hell and actively punishes them eternally. For what purpose may I ask?

dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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And to be honest, as long as someone does not say Christ followers are going to hell if they don't believe In their version of ECT hell like the pastor in the op video (which is not anywhere in Scripture) what someone believes about hell is not salvific.

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If hell is eternal, but there is no double predestination/Calvinistic reasons people end up there, is that something that would shake your faith or would you accept it and continue to follow?

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ordains people to ECT hell and actively punishes them eternally.

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It is not my understanding that God is actively working in this way.

The Banned said:

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Similar to what Martin said, our understanding of what the afterlife holds affects how we view the faith on this earth. We see atheists on this thread that had a Baptist type upbringings that came to find that doctrine of hell (God delights in the punishment of those in hell) to be so unpalatable that it leads to doubting the entire faith. IN the denominations/groups that tout universalism, we see actions that have been held as sin since the very beginning are now seen as A OK.

Your particular question isn't that harmful, but what happens downstream from there certainly can be.

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Oh I think the goodness/grace of God should be the determining factor in whether a person believes or not…not what hell is or isn't…or if someone had a bad experience at a particular church or with a denomination…I agree church opens the door to many coming to God and can establish a foothold in a person's faith but I also believe its innate in our makeup to believe in God as he is in our DNA so to speak..not ultimately what we heard a man preach or shout from the pulpit..…My focus is God and joining him after my time on earth is over..I've got no time to give worrying about hell..Just my two cents of course..

Matt 18:34 And in anger his master delivered him to the torturers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Matt 18:34 And in anger his master delivered him to the torturers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

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First of all, the word eternal is not in there. Since Jesus is comparing God's punishment to a human master, He obviously states the debt will be paid in full. To me, that is not eternal. How can you owe a human master an eternal debt that can never be repaid. That is not what Jesus is saying.

Secondly, I think God's "torture" is different than our version. I think, as CS Lewis did, the "torture" is separation from God and the good.

And I do not think it is eternal. Surely if it was eternal would be included in the Scripture.

As an Anglican, do you read NT Wright who is an Anglican of some renown.

I think you might find it interesting what his thoughts on heaven, hell, and our eternal destiny are.

He is one of my faves.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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Quote:

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I hate sin a lot more since I dropped ECT hell theology because now I see how good God truly is. And much, much more vocal about sharing my faith and the Gospel as it really is good news.

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This is good! Will you also agree that we're seeing LGBT, divorce and remarriage, and a countless list of other sins being "no big deal" anymore in many denominations? I get that it helps you, but we're watching millions upon millions of self professed Christians call sin good right now

Quote:

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Can anyone show me a Scripture where Jesus said He came to save us from ECT hell? And He spoke a lot about why He came.

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I'm fine with saying he didn't come to "save us from hell". That's an evangelical/baptist way of pitching it. He calls us to follow Him. And He also says those that don't follow Him will be tossed out of the Kingdom and there will be suffering that goes along with it. When He does say this, he does not say it's temporary. He uses the same word for eternal there as He does when he talks of eternal life (anionion)

Quote:

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Also, no response to my comment about works being in all the jell parables? No sinner's prayer. No altar call. Nothing about anything except feed the poor, care for prisoners, etc.

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You don't need to convince me here. Faithfulness to God means following His commands, as Jesus clearly says. If you don't follow His will, then you aren't living out your faith.

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Good post. It is fascinating that Sr. Augustine was, to my knowledge, the first to translate anionion that way as that word can be translated differently depending on which noun it is associated with. There have been entire books written about that so it is obviously debatable. As is the word for punishment which is kolasis. Kolasis usually means a pruning or corrective punishment and timoria is the word for retributive punishment.

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Matt. 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. (NIV)
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (ESV)
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (KJV)
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (NASB)

You're saying this verse should read
Then they will go away to temporary corrective punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

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I am saying it can be interpreted that way. But I am not a scholar. Just have read a ton on it. It is nowhere as clear cut as I used to believe. May I ask if you have ever looked up the difference between kolasis and timoria?

And do you believe, as it appears many evangelicals do, that if I and others interpret Matthew 25:46 differently than their version, that we are ECT hellbound?

Let me ask you this, what are Christ's criteria for being a sheep or goat? And is He talking to individuals or nations?

And in the verse about punishment from Matthew you posted, what is Christ saying they would be punished for?

In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, why does Christ say the rich man is punished?

dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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Similar to what Martin said, our understanding of what the afterlife holds affects how we view the faith on this earth. We see atheists on this thread that had a Baptist type upbringings that came to find that doctrine of hell (God delights in the punishment of those in hell) to be so unpalatable that it leads to doubting the entire faith. IN the denominations/groups that tout universalism, we see actions that have been held as sin since the very beginning are now seen as A OK.

Your particular question isn't that harmful, but what happens downstream from there certainly can be.

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I hate sin a lot more since I dropped ECT hell theology because now I see how good God truly is. And much, much more vocal about sharing my faith and the Gospel as it really is good news.
Can anyone show me a Scripture where Jesus said He came to save us from ECT hell? And He spoke a lot about why He came.
Also, no response to my comment about works being in all the jell parables? No sinner's prayer. No altar call. Nothing about anything except feed the poor, care for prisoners, etc.

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There's a lot of presuppositions in your post. I will just say Matt 22:1-14 stands out to me as more than exclusion from a feast. That's if we're just skimming parables to see if Christ says anything about judgment, and assuming he's creating a theological treatise from which to build an eschatological framework (which He isn't, so this isn't the way to evaluate claims of hell imo).

That said, the safer spiritual exercise is to leave judgment in his purview. There is a lake of fire for Sheol and demons. If we become more godly by participating in His works, and more demonic by participating in theirs, why wouldn't some end up there?

AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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Similar to what Martin said, our understanding of what the afterlife holds affects how we view the faith on this earth. We see atheists on this thread that had a Baptist type upbringings that came to find that doctrine of hell (God delights in the punishment of those in hell) to be so unpalatable that it leads to doubting the entire faith. IN the denominations/groups that tout universalism, we see actions that have been held as sin since the very beginning are now seen as A OK.

Your particular question isn't that harmful, but what happens downstream from there certainly can be.

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I hate sin a lot more since I dropped ECT hell theology because now I see how good God truly is. And much, much more vocal about sharing my faith and the Gospel as it really is good news.
Can anyone show me a Scripture where Jesus said He came to save us from ECT hell? And He spoke a lot about why He came.
Also, no response to my comment about works being in all the jell parables? No sinner's prayer. No altar call. Nothing about anything except feed the poor, care for prisoners, etc.

---

There's a lot of presuppositions in your post. I will just say Matt 22:1-14 stands out to me as more than exclusion from a feast. That's if we're just skimming parables to see if Christ says anything about judgment, and assuming he's creating a theological treatise from which to build an eschatological framework (which He isn't, so this isn't the way to evaluate claims of hell imo).

That said, the safer spiritual exercise is to leave judgment in his purview. There is a lake of fire for Sheol and demons. If we become more godly by participating in His works, and more demonic by participating in theirs, why wouldn't some end up there?

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Agree on leaving it to God. And there is obviously punishment. Scripture says God is love and desires to save all.

i am not God and obviously His ways are above ours. The problem is with the concept of eternal conscious punishment. What sin would deserve that? How is that love? Or couple with a desire to save all?

And as I have stated, to my knowledge Matt 25:46 is the only Scripture that possibly mentions eternal punishment. And that is a very disputed translation.

I believe you are Anglican. Have you read NT Wright's thoughts on this subject?

I value your opinion. Do you agree that the pastor in the op is being unBiblical when he says you are going to hell if you do not believe in his concept of ECT hell?

88Warrior said:

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The Banned said:

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Similar to what Martin said, our understanding of what the afterlife holds affects how we view the faith on this earth. We see atheists on this thread that had a Baptist type upbringings that came to find that doctrine of hell (God delights in the punishment of those in hell) to be so unpalatable that it leads to doubting the entire faith. IN the denominations/groups that tout universalism, we see actions that have been held as sin since the very beginning are now seen as A OK.

Your particular question isn't that harmful, but what happens downstream from there certainly can be.

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Oh I think the goodness/grace of God should be the determining factor in whether a person believes or not…not what hell is or isn't…or if someone had a bad experience at a particular church or with a denomination…I agree church opens the door to many coming to God and can establish a foothold in a person's faith but I also believe its innate in our makeup to believe in God as he is in our DNA so to speak..not ultimately what we heard a man preach or shout from the pulpit..…My focus is God and joining him after my time on earth is over..I've got no time to give worrying about hell..Just my two cents of course..

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I think the bolded is very true. The bible warns about false teaching though. How do we know if we're are believing in the goodness of the true God, or a caricature of God's goodness that says we are so safe in our eternal salvation that how we live our lives on this earth doesn't really matter?

The bible warns that there will be people who say "Lord, Lord" but never knew Him. Jesus says is those that do the will of His Father that will be in Heaven. Hell isn't reserved for only those that didn't verbally or intellectually assent.

The Banned said:

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88Warrior said:

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The Banned said:

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Similar to what Martin said, our understanding of what the afterlife holds affects how we view the faith on this earth. We see atheists on this thread that had a Baptist type upbringings that came to find that doctrine of hell (God delights in the punishment of those in hell) to be so unpalatable that it leads to doubting the entire faith. IN the denominations/groups that tout universalism, we see actions that have been held as sin since the very beginning are now seen as A OK.

Your particular question isn't that harmful, but what happens downstream from there certainly can be.

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Oh I think the goodness/grace of God should be the determining factor in whether a person believes or not…not what hell is or isn't…or if someone had a bad experience at a particular church or with a denomination…I agree church opens the door to many coming to God and can establish a foothold in a person's faith but I also believe its innate in our makeup to believe in God as he is in our DNA so to speak..not ultimately what we heard a man preach or shout from the pulpit..…My focus is God and joining him after my time on earth is over..I've got no time to give worrying about hell..Just my two cents of course..

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I think the bolded is very true. The bible warns about false teaching though. How do we know if we're are believing in the goodness of the true God, or a caricature of God's goodness that says we are so safe in our eternal salvation that how we live our lives on this earth doesn't really matter?

The bible warns that there will be people who say "Lord, Lord" but never knew Him. Jesus says is those that do the will of His Father that will be in Heaven. Hell isn't reserved for only those that didn't verbally or intellectually assent.

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No doubt!

dermdoc said:

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AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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Similar to what Martin said, our understanding of what the afterlife holds affects how we view the faith on this earth. We see atheists on this thread that had a Baptist type upbringings that came to find that doctrine of hell (God delights in the punishment of those in hell) to be so unpalatable that it leads to doubting the entire faith. IN the denominations/groups that tout universalism, we see actions that have been held as sin since the very beginning are now seen as A OK.

Your particular question isn't that harmful, but what happens downstream from there certainly can be.

---

I hate sin a lot more since I dropped ECT hell theology because now I see how good God truly is. And much, much more vocal about sharing my faith and the Gospel as it really is good news.
Can anyone show me a Scripture where Jesus said He came to save us from ECT hell? And He spoke a lot about why He came.
Also, no response to my comment about works being in all the jell parables? No sinner's prayer. No altar call. Nothing about anything except feed the poor, care for prisoners, etc.

---

There's a lot of presuppositions in your post. I will just say Matt 22:1-14 stands out to me as more than exclusion from a feast. That's if we're just skimming parables to see if Christ says anything about judgment, and assuming he's creating a theological treatise from which to build an eschatological framework (which He isn't, so this isn't the way to evaluate claims of hell imo).

That said, the safer spiritual exercise is to leave judgment in his purview. There is a lake of fire for Sheol and demons. If we become more godly by participating in His works, and more demonic by participating in theirs, why wouldn't some end up there?

---

Agree on leaving it to God. And there is obviously punishment. Scripture says God is love and desires to save all.

i am not God and obviously His ways are above ours. The problem is with the concept of eternal conscious punishment. What sin would deserve that? How is that love? Or couple with a desire to save all?

And as I have stated, to my knowledge Matt 25:46 is the only Scripture that possibly mentions eternal punishment. And that is a very disputed translation.

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You keep saying "eternal conscious punishment/torment". Is the only torment or punishment the type where God is actively applying it? Can the torment not be the personal distress over the state one finds themselves in (separation from God)?