dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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And to be honest, as long as someone does not say Christ followers are going to hell if they don't believe In their version of ECT hell like the pastor in the op video (which is not anywhere in Scripture) what someone believes about hell is not salvific.

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If hell is eternal, but there is no double predestination/Calvinistic reasons people end up there, is that something that would shake your faith or would you accept it and continue to follow?

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No, it would not shake my faith at all. If people choose to reject God via their free will and end up in "hell" (think CS Lewis's The great Divorce) it does not go against the character of God as expressed in the totality of Scripture.

I can not read the totality of Scripture and believe God pre ordains people to ECT hell and actively punishes them eternally. For what purpose may I ask?

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If it doesn't shake your faith, then I would say (in my limited, human capacity) that your view of the afterlife doesn't affect your salvation.

But what about those that say they would never follow a God that allows for that? It would seem more likely they could be in peril because they might be loving a fictious view of God, but reject the real view of God that allows for eternal Hell (provided that is what will happen). Sort of like their saying they will follow God up to the point in which they disagree with Him. Then they're out.

The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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Similar to what Martin said, our understanding of what the afterlife holds affects how we view the faith on this earth. We see atheists on this thread that had a Baptist type upbringings that came to find that doctrine of hell (God delights in the punishment of those in hell) to be so unpalatable that it leads to doubting the entire faith. IN the denominations/groups that tout universalism, we see actions that have been held as sin since the very beginning are now seen as A OK.

Your particular question isn't that harmful, but what happens downstream from there certainly can be.

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I hate sin a lot more since I dropped ECT hell theology because now I see how good God truly is. And much, much more vocal about sharing my faith and the Gospel as it really is good news.
Can anyone show me a Scripture where Jesus said He came to save us from ECT hell? And He spoke a lot about why He came.
Also, no response to my comment about works being in all the jell parables? No sinner's prayer. No altar call. Nothing about anything except feed the poor, care for prisoners, etc.

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There's a lot of presuppositions in your post. I will just say Matt 22:1-14 stands out to me as more than exclusion from a feast. That's if we're just skimming parables to see if Christ says anything about judgment, and assuming he's creating a theological treatise from which to build an eschatological framework (which He isn't, so this isn't the way to evaluate claims of hell imo).

That said, the safer spiritual exercise is to leave judgment in his purview. There is a lake of fire for Sheol and demons. If we become more godly by participating in His works, and more demonic by participating in theirs, why wouldn't some end up there?

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Agree on leaving it to God. And there is obviously punishment. Scripture says God is love and desires to save all.

i am not God and obviously His ways are above ours. The problem is with the concept of eternal conscious punishment. What sin would deserve that? How is that love? Or couple with a desire to save all?

And as I have stated, to my knowledge Matt 25:46 is the only Scripture that possibly mentions eternal punishment. And that is a very disputed translation.

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You keep saying "eternal conscious punishment/torment". Is the only torment or punishment the type where God is actively applying it? Can the torment not be the personal distress over the state one finds themselves in (separation from God)?

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As I posted above, I can agree with that. But to me that is not true ECT hell theology. The pastor in the op, Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, John MacArthur, John Piper, RC Sproul, etc. come to mind when I think about modern day ECT hell proponents.

The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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And to be honest, as long as someone does not say Christ followers are going to hell if they don't believe In their version of ECT hell like the pastor in the op video (which is not anywhere in Scripture) what someone believes about hell is not salvific.

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If hell is eternal, but there is no double predestination/Calvinistic reasons people end up there, is that something that would shake your faith or would you accept it and continue to follow?

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No, it would not shake my faith at all. If people choose to reject God via their free will and end up in "hell" (think CS Lewis's The great Divorce) it does not go against the character of God as expressed in the totality of Scripture.

I can not read the totality of Scripture and believe God pre ordains people to ECT hell and actively punishes them eternally. For what purpose may I ask?

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If it doesn't shake your faith, then I would say (in my limited, human capacity) that your view of the afterlife doesn't affect your salvation.

But what about those that say they would never follow a God that allows for that? It would seem more likely they could be in peril because they might be loving a fictious view of God, but reject the real view of God that allows for eternal Hell (provided that is what will happen). Sort of like their saying they will follow God up to the point in which they disagree with Him. Then they're out.

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I can only speak for myself and my experiences. It is fascinating to me that from my reading and experiences, it is often the hellfire and brimstone guys who do stuff, usually sexual, that most of my agnostic/atheist friends would never dream of doing. In other words, fear of hell, even by those who yell it from the pulpit, does not seem to affect evil human behavior that much.

dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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dermdoc said:

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AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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Similar to what Martin said, our understanding of what the afterlife holds affects how we view the faith on this earth. We see atheists on this thread that had a Baptist type upbringings that came to find that doctrine of hell (God delights in the punishment of those in hell) to be so unpalatable that it leads to doubting the entire faith. IN the denominations/groups that tout universalism, we see actions that have been held as sin since the very beginning are now seen as A OK.

Your particular question isn't that harmful, but what happens downstream from there certainly can be.

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I hate sin a lot more since I dropped ECT hell theology because now I see how good God truly is. And much, much more vocal about sharing my faith and the Gospel as it really is good news.
Can anyone show me a Scripture where Jesus said He came to save us from ECT hell? And He spoke a lot about why He came.
Also, no response to my comment about works being in all the jell parables? No sinner's prayer. No altar call. Nothing about anything except feed the poor, care for prisoners, etc.

---

There's a lot of presuppositions in your post. I will just say Matt 22:1-14 stands out to me as more than exclusion from a feast. That's if we're just skimming parables to see if Christ says anything about judgment, and assuming he's creating a theological treatise from which to build an eschatological framework (which He isn't, so this isn't the way to evaluate claims of hell imo).

That said, the safer spiritual exercise is to leave judgment in his purview. There is a lake of fire for Sheol and demons. If we become more godly by participating in His works, and more demonic by participating in theirs, why wouldn't some end up there?

---

Agree on leaving it to God. And there is obviously punishment. Scripture says God is love and desires to save all.

i am not God and obviously His ways are above ours. The problem is with the concept of eternal conscious punishment. What sin would deserve that? How is that love? Or couple with a desire to save all?

And as I have stated, to my knowledge Matt 25:46 is the only Scripture that possibly mentions eternal punishment. And that is a very disputed translation.

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You keep saying "eternal conscious punishment/torment". Is the only torment or punishment the type where God is actively applying it? Can the torment not be the personal distress over the state one finds themselves in (separation from God)?

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As I posted above, I can agree with that. But to me that is not true ECT hell theology. The pastor in the op, Paul Washer, Steve Lawson, John MacArthur, John Piper, RC Sproul, etc. come to mind when I think about modern day ECT hell proponents.

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I guess I'm just not familiar enough with their insistence on their definition of "torment", not growing up in those types of congregations. Forgive my ignorance

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Matt 18:34 And in anger his master delivered him to the torturers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

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First of all, the word eternal is not in there. Since Jesus is comparing God's punishment to a human master, He obviously states the debt will be paid in full. To me, that is not eternal. How can you owe a human master an eternal debt that can never be repaid. That is not what Jesus is saying.

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That's exactly what he's saying. The man will never pay his debt. You think you can repay the sin debt you have incurred with a temporary punishment?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Matt 18:34 And in anger his master delivered him to the torturers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

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First of all, the word eternal is not in there. Since Jesus is comparing God's punishment to a human master, He obviously states the debt will be paid in full. To me, that is not eternal. How can you owe a human master an eternal debt that can never be repaid. That is not what Jesus is saying.

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That's exactly what he's saying. The man will never pay his debt. You think you can repay the sin debt you have incurred with a temporary punishment?

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I do not read that interpretation at all. Christ specifically states until he should pay all his debt. Which is a finite period of time to me. We will agree to disagree

Jesus paid for my sin debt. And everybody's.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Matt 18:34 And in anger his master delivered him to the torturers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."

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First of all, the word eternal is not in there. Since Jesus is comparing God's punishment to a human master, He obviously states the debt will be paid in full. To me, that is not eternal. How can you owe a human master an eternal debt that can never be repaid. That is not what Jesus is saying.

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That's exactly what he's saying. The man will never pay his debt. You think you can repay the sin debt you have incurred with a temporary punishment?

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I do not read that interpretation at all. Christ specifically states until he should pay all his debt. Which is a finite period of time to me. We will agree to disagree

Jesus paid for my sin debt. And everybody's.

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You contradict yourself. The man pays the debt or the master?

https://northamanglican.com/a-history-of-alternative-views-of-hell-in-the-church-of-england/

As an Anglican I thought you might find this interesting.

Sorry, but if we are going to point the finger at all these mean preachers who believe ECT then we might as well go on down the line...these are just a couple obviously

"...but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years."
-Justin Martyr, The First Apology

"...thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, Matthew 25:41 these shall be damned for ever..."
-Irenaeus, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 28)

"And the unrighteous, and those who believed not God, who have honoured as God the vain works of the hands of men, idols fashioned (by themselves), shall be sentenced to this endless punishment."
-Hippolytus, Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe

"An ever-burning Gehenna will burn up the condemned, and a punishment devouring with living flames; nor will there be any source whence at any time they may have either respite or end to their torments."
-Cyprian of Carthage, To Demetrianus, 24

"First of all, it behooves us to inquire and to recognize why the Church has not been able to tolerate the idea that promises cleansing or indulgence to the devil even after the most severe and protracted punishment. For so many holy men, imbued with the spirit of the Old and New Testament, did not grudge to angels of any rank or character that they should enjoy the blessedness of the heavenly kingdom after being cleansed by suffering, but rather they perceived that they could not invalidate nor evacuate the divine sentence which the Lord predicted that He would pronounce in the judgment, saying, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41 For here it is evident that the devil and his angels shall burn in everlasting fire. And there is also that declaration in the Apocalypse, The devil their deceiver was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also are the beast and the false prophet. And they shall be tormented day and night forever. Revelation 20:10 In the former passage everlasting is used, in the latter for ever; and by these words Scripture is wont to mean nothing else than endless duration. And therefore no other reason, no reason more obvious and just, can be found for holding it as the fixed and immovable belief of the truest piety, that the devil and his angels shall never return to the justice and life of the saints, than that Scripture, which deceives no man, says that God spared them not, and that they were condemned beforehand by Him, and cast into prisons of darkness in hell, 2 Peter 2:4 being reserved to the judgment of the last day, when eternal fire shall receive them, in which they shall be tormented world without end. And if this be so, how can it be believed that all men, or even some, shall be withdrawn from the endurance of punishment after some time has been spent in it? How can this be believed without enervating our faith in the eternal punishment of the devils? For if all or some of those to whom it shall be said, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, Matthew 25:41 are not to be always in that fire, then what reason is there for believing that the devil and his angels shall always be there? Or is perhaps the sentence of God, which is to be pronounced on wicked men and angels alike, to be true in the case of the angels, false in that of men? Plainly it will be so if the conjectures of men are to weigh more than the word of God. But because this is absurd, they who desire to be rid of eternal punishment ought to abstain from arguing against God, and rather, while yet there is opportunity, obey the divine commands. Then what a fond fancy is it to suppose that eternal punishment means long continued punishment, while eternal life means life without end, since Christ in the very same passage spoke of both in similar terms in one and the same sentence, These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal! Matthew 25:46 If both destinies are eternal, then we must either understand both as long-continued but at last terminating, or both as endless. For they are correlative on the one hand, punishment eternal, on the other hand, life eternal. And to say in one and the same sense, life eternal shall be endless, punishment eternal shall come to an end, is the height of absurdity. Wherefore, as the eternal life of the saints shall be endless, so too the eternal punishment of those who are doomed to it shall have no end."
-Augustine, The City of God (Book XXI)

I think the primary issue is not the definition of the E or the C, but the T. That has been viewed different ways by different church fathers, and neither the Catholic or EO's have officially defined it as far as I can find.

dermdoc said:

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https://northamanglican.com/a-history-of-alternative-views-of-hell-in-the-church-of-england/

As an Anglican I thought you might find this interesting.

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I guess that means you're done with the discussion. I couldn't care less what the church of England has to say. They've been lost for years.

dermdoc said:

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AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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The Banned said:

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Similar to what Martin said, our understanding of what the afterlife holds affects how we view the faith on this earth. We see atheists on this thread that had a Baptist type upbringings that came to find that doctrine of hell (God delights in the punishment of those in hell) to be so unpalatable that it leads to doubting the entire faith. IN the denominations/groups that tout universalism, we see actions that have been held as sin since the very beginning are now seen as A OK.

Your particular question isn't that harmful, but what happens downstream from there certainly can be.

---

I hate sin a lot more since I dropped ECT hell theology because now I see how good God truly is. And much, much more vocal about sharing my faith and the Gospel as it really is good news.
Can anyone show me a Scripture where Jesus said He came to save us from ECT hell? And He spoke a lot about why He came.
Also, no response to my comment about works being in all the jell parables? No sinner's prayer. No altar call. Nothing about anything except feed the poor, care for prisoners, etc.

---

There's a lot of presuppositions in your post. I will just say Matt 22:1-14 stands out to me as more than exclusion from a feast. That's if we're just skimming parables to see if Christ says anything about judgment, and assuming he's creating a theological treatise from which to build an eschatological framework (which He isn't, so this isn't the way to evaluate claims of hell imo).

That said, the safer spiritual exercise is to leave judgment in his purview. There is a lake of fire for Sheol and demons. If we become more godly by participating in His works, and more demonic by participating in theirs, why wouldn't some end up there?

---

Agree on leaving it to God. And there is obviously punishment. Scripture says God is love and desires to save all.

i am not God and obviously His ways are above ours. The problem is with the concept of eternal conscious punishment. What sin would deserve that? How is that love? Or couple with a desire to save all?

And as I have stated, to my knowledge Matt 25:46 is the only Scripture that possibly mentions eternal punishment. And that is a very disputed translation.

I believe you are Anglican. Have you read NT Wright's thoughts on this subject?

I value your opinion. Do you agree that the pastor in the op is being unBiblical when he says you are going to hell if you do not believe in his concept of ECT hell?

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My point was that weeping and gnashing of teeth is pretty perilous for those expelled from the feast. Clearly the King knows what happens and intends for it to happen. And look what he does prior to that (in 5-7)! This King is not asking them to do the dishes before admittance or to pay for their food, my friend.

I do not believe that omniscience extinguishes free will, as the human does not have the perspective to know what will happen and always makes a free choice (Boethius).

I do not read Wright much. He's as likely to stray over orthodox lines and have to cross back as any I've seen lately.

My personal beliefs? I stated them already. There is a lake of fire. There are demons that will be in it. Those that do the work of demons (or invite them in) I don't find functionally different enough to exclude from such a possibility.

The Banned said:

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I think the primary issue is not the definition of the E or the C, but the T. That has been viewed different ways by different church fathers, and neither the Catholic or EO's have officially defined it as far as I can find.

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I can't say I blame them. The manner in which one would be tormented is far out of the scope of what has been revealed to man.

10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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I think the primary issue is not the definition of the E or the C, but the T. That has been viewed different ways by different church fathers, and neither the Catholic or EO's have officially defined it as far as I can find.

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I can't say I blame them. The manner in which one would be tormented is far out of the scope of what has been revealed to man.

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I think Mal. 4 gives us a glimpse.

4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.

4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.

5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."

Given v5, this day is obviously the incarnation of Jesus. Beginning with Herod, his enemies burned with rage.

Matthew Henry on Mal. 4:1:
Now this was fulfilled, (1.) When Christ, in his doctrine, spoke terror and condemnation to the proud Pharisees and the other Jews that did wickedly, when he sent that fire on the earth which burnt up the chaff of the traditions of the elders and the corrupt glosses they had put upon the law of God. (2.) When Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, and the nation of the Jews, as a nation, quite blotted out from under heaven, and neither root nor branch left them. This seems to be principally intended here; our Saviour says that those should be the days of vengeance, when all the things that were written to that purport should be fulfilled, Luke 21:22. Then the unbelieving Jews were as stubble to the devouring fire of God's judgments, which gathered together to them as the eagles to the carcase. (3.) It is certainly applicable, and is to be applied, to the day of judgment, to the particular judgment at death (some of the Jewish doctors refer it the punishment that seizes on the souls of the wicked immediately after they go out of the body), but especially to the general judgment, at the end of time, when Christ shall be revealed in flaming fire, to execute judgment on the proud, and all that do wickedly. The whole world shall then burn as an oven, and all the children of this world, that set their hearts upon it and choose their portion in it, shall take their ruin with it, and the fire then kindled shall never be quenched.

The Banned said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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The Banned said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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The Banned said:

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Aggrad08 said:

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The issue with any eternal hell is coming up with a logic that justifies it. What is gods purpose in eternal suffering, what is he trying to accomplish?

If you think of all the reasons we've come up with to rationally dole out punishment including the death penalty they all fall short of justifying any sort of eternal punishment

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This again leads to the question: Can "punishment" not be self inflicted in the form of natural consequences? If I choose not to do any work, I will be "punished" by society by being a poor, homeless individual. It all depends on how you interpret "punishment" in the arena of eternal life, and that definition was never fully defined by the early church. I don't care what some random baptist pastor wants to say it means, but I can see why people raised in that tradition might.

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There is no such thing as "natural consequences" here. The "nature" was chosen by god. And therefore requires a purpose. So I'll ask, what's the rational purpose?

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The only nature God chose was the nature He gave Adam and Eve: to stay in communion with Him. Now we can choose to go against that nature, as they clearly did, and when we do so there are "natural" consequences. Unless we're really trying to parse terms between natural and supernatural, I think this gets the point across.

Now to what purpose? God loves His creation. He wants His creation to participate in His divine glory. Not all of his creation will choose to do that. Not that different than how a parent can love a wayward child as much as they can and the wayward child never returns. It's heartbreaking, but it happens. The only workaround for God making sure every single created human ends up in eternal bliss in His presence is to force people to desire presence with Him, overriding the free will He gave us.

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Yeah none of that answers the question. None of that demonstrates a logical goal that is satisfied. Eternal torment is simply not the logical consequence here. Even if we say a heaven of mindlessly worshiping god with no free will would not be chosen that doesn't leave a hell as the alternative

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I think we're speaking past each other. How do you define eternal torment? Is it something being done to the person (like a torture chamber), or something the person experiences as a result of their choices (like the person got drunk, drove, and killed their child and they beat themselves up for the rest of their life)?

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In this particular instance there isn't a difference that helps you. All of the consequences you are listing are temporary. To have an eternal consequence of the same nature it is inextricably by god actively making it that way. So I ask again what's the purpose? And we aren't talking about a consequence merely experienced internally that is reliant on the persons own choices and beliefs and can be altered in a similar way at any time. Hell as "emotional regret", isn't what anyone is talking about. Will you be able to regret any misdeeds in heaven? Work it backwards. Tell me how you think hell works and we will easily be able to show a way in which god could have made it different.

That is fair. I actually just read not long ago some of that from Malachi and should have recalled that!

Bonus points for the Matthew Henry commentary. I use him often.

Maybe some just want to believe the oven is more like a sauna?

Martin Q. Blank said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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I think the primary issue is not the definition of the E or the C, but the T. That has been viewed different ways by different church fathers, and neither the Catholic or EO's have officially defined it as far as I can find.

---

I can't say I blame them. The manner in which one would be tormented is far out of the scope of what has been revealed to man.

---

I think Mal. 4 gives us a glimpse.

4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.

4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.

5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."

Given v5, this day is obviously the incarnation of Jesus. Beginning with Herod, his enemies burned with rage.

Matthew Henry on Mal. 4:1:
Now this was fulfilled, (1.) When Christ, in his doctrine, spoke terror and condemnation to the proud Pharisees and the other Jews that did wickedly, when he sent that fire on the earth which burnt up the chaff of the traditions of the elders and the corrupt glosses they had put upon the law of God. (2.) When Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, and the nation of the Jews, as a nation, quite blotted out from under heaven, and neither root nor branch left them. This seems to be principally intended here; our Saviour says that those should be the days of vengeance, when all the things that were written to that purport should be fulfilled, Luke 21:22. Then the unbelieving Jews were as stubble to the devouring fire of God's judgments, which gathered together to them as the eagles to the carcase. (3.) It is certainly applicable, and is to be applied, to the day of judgment, to the particular judgment at death (some of the Jewish doctors refer it the punishment that seizes on the souls of the wicked immediately after they go out of the body), but especially to the general judgment, at the end of time, when Christ shall be revealed in flaming fire, to execute judgment on the proud, and all that do wickedly. The whole world shall then burn as an oven, and all the children of this world, that set their hearts upon it and choose their portion in it, shall take their ruin with it, and the fire then kindled shall never be quenched.

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Don't those both support annihilationism? I don't read eternal conscious punish,ent in any of that.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Sorry, but if we are going to point the finger at all these mean preachers who believe ECT then we might as well go on down the line...these are just a couple obviously

"...but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years."
-Justin Martyr, The First Apology

"...thus also the punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise His advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; being not merely temporal, but rendered also eternal. For to whomsoever the Lord shall say, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, Matthew 25:41 these shall be damned for ever..."
-Irenaeus, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chapter 28)

"And the unrighteous, and those who believed not God, who have honoured as God the vain works of the hands of men, idols fashioned (by themselves), shall be sentenced to this endless punishment."
-Hippolytus, Against Plato, On the Cause of the Universe

"An ever-burning Gehenna will burn up the condemned, and a punishment devouring with living flames; nor will there be any source whence at any time they may have either respite or end to their torments."
-Cyprian of Carthage, To Demetrianus, 24

"First of all, it behooves us to inquire and to recognize why the Church has not been able to tolerate the idea that promises cleansing or indulgence to the devil even after the most severe and protracted punishment. For so many holy men, imbued with the spirit of the Old and New Testament, did not grudge to angels of any rank or character that they should enjoy the blessedness of the heavenly kingdom after being cleansed by suffering, but rather they perceived that they could not invalidate nor evacuate the divine sentence which the Lord predicted that He would pronounce in the judgment, saying, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41 For here it is evident that the devil and his angels shall burn in everlasting fire. And there is also that declaration in the Apocalypse, The devil their deceiver was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also are the beast and the false prophet. And they shall be tormented day and night forever. Revelation 20:10 In the former passage everlasting is used, in the latter for ever; and by these words Scripture is wont to mean nothing else than endless duration. And therefore no other reason, no reason more obvious and just, can be found for holding it as the fixed and immovable belief of the truest piety, that the devil and his angels shall never return to the justice and life of the saints, than that Scripture, which deceives no man, says that God spared them not, and that they were condemned beforehand by Him, and cast into prisons of darkness in hell, 2 Peter 2:4 being reserved to the judgment of the last day, when eternal fire shall receive them, in which they shall be tormented world without end. And if this be so, how can it be believed that all men, or even some, shall be withdrawn from the endurance of punishment after some time has been spent in it? How can this be believed without enervating our faith in the eternal punishment of the devils? For if all or some of those to whom it shall be said, Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, Matthew 25:41 are not to be always in that fire, then what reason is there for believing that the devil and his angels shall always be there? Or is perhaps the sentence of God, which is to be pronounced on wicked men and angels alike, to be true in the case of the angels, false in that of men? Plainly it will be so if the conjectures of men are to weigh more than the word of God. But because this is absurd, they who desire to be rid of eternal punishment ought to abstain from arguing against God, and rather, while yet there is opportunity, obey the divine commands. Then what a fond fancy is it to suppose that eternal punishment means long continued punishment, while eternal life means life without end, since Christ in the very same passage spoke of both in similar terms in one and the same sentence, These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal! Matthew 25:46 If both destinies are eternal, then we must either understand both as long-continued but at last terminating, or both as endless. For they are correlative on the one hand, punishment eternal, on the other hand, life eternal. And to say in one and the same sense, life eternal shall be endless, punishment eternal shall come to an end, is the height of absurdity. Wherefore, as the eternal life of the saints shall be endless, so too the eternal punishment of those who are doomed to it shall have no end."
-Augustine, The City of God (Book XXI)

---

I don't believe any of those quotes say if you don't believe in ECT hell, you are going there.

And for good reason. It is not Biblical. Now go watch the video in the op where he explicitly states that. There is a difference.

dermdoc said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

---

The Banned said:

---

I think the primary issue is not the definition of the E or the C, but the T. That has been viewed different ways by different church fathers, and neither the Catholic or EO's have officially defined it as far as I can find.

---

I can't say I blame them. The manner in which one would be tormented is far out of the scope of what has been revealed to man.

---

I think Mal. 4 gives us a glimpse.

4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.

4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.

5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."

Given v5, this day is obviously the incarnation of Jesus. Beginning with Herod, his enemies burned with rage.

Matthew Henry on Mal. 4:1:
Now this was fulfilled, (1.) When Christ, in his doctrine, spoke terror and condemnation to the proud Pharisees and the other Jews that did wickedly, when he sent that fire on the earth which burnt up the chaff of the traditions of the elders and the corrupt glosses they had put upon the law of God. (2.) When Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, and the nation of the Jews, as a nation, quite blotted out from under heaven, and neither root nor branch left them. This seems to be principally intended here; our Saviour says that those should be the days of vengeance, when all the things that were written to that purport should be fulfilled, Luke 21:22. Then the unbelieving Jews were as stubble to the devouring fire of God's judgments, which gathered together to them as the eagles to the carcase. (3.) It is certainly applicable, and is to be applied, to the day of judgment, to the particular judgment at death (some of the Jewish doctors refer it the punishment that seizes on the souls of the wicked immediately after they go out of the body), but especially to the general judgment, at the end of time, when Christ shall be revealed in flaming fire, to execute judgment on the proud, and all that do wickedly. The whole world shall then burn as an oven, and all the children of this world, that set their hearts upon it and choose their portion in it, shall take their ruin with it, and the fire then kindled shall never be quenched.

---

Don't those both support annihilationism? I don't read eternal conscious punish,ent in any of that.

---

Correct. If you read carefully, we were discussing the "T" in ECT. I don't know where you see annihilationism.

But I'm glad you're back. In Matt. 18, does the man pay the debt or the master? Can you provide Biblical support for purgatory?

Is there any Scrpture that states Christ came to save us from hell?

Is there any Scripture except possibly Matthew 25:46 that speaks of eternal punishment?

Is there any Scripture that says if you don't believe in ECT hell you are going there?

No, yes, no.

In Matt. 18, does the man pay the debt or the master? Can you provide Biblical support for purgatory?

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

The Banned said:

---

I think the primary issue is not the definition of the E or the C, but the T. That has been viewed different ways by different church fathers, and neither the Catholic or EO's have officially defined it as far as I can find.

---

I can't say I blame them. The manner in which one would be tormented is far out of the scope of what has been revealed to man.

---

I think Mal. 4 gives us a glimpse.

4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.

4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.

5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."

Given v5, this day is obviously the incarnation of Jesus. Beginning with Herod, his enemies burned with rage.

Matthew Henry on Mal. 4:1:
Now this was fulfilled, (1.) When Christ, in his doctrine, spoke terror and condemnation to the proud Pharisees and the other Jews that did wickedly, when he sent that fire on the earth which burnt up the chaff of the traditions of the elders and the corrupt glosses they had put upon the law of God. (2.) When Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, and the nation of the Jews, as a nation, quite blotted out from under heaven, and neither root nor branch left them. This seems to be principally intended here; our Saviour says that those should be the days of vengeance, when all the things that were written to that purport should be fulfilled, Luke 21:22. Then the unbelieving Jews were as stubble to the devouring fire of God's judgments, which gathered together to them as the eagles to the carcase. (3.) It is certainly applicable, and is to be applied, to the day of judgment, to the particular judgment at death (some of the Jewish doctors refer it the punishment that seizes on the souls of the wicked immediately after they go out of the body), but especially to the general judgment, at the end of time, when Christ shall be revealed in flaming fire, to execute judgment on the proud, and all that do wickedly. The whole world shall then burn as an oven, and all the children of this world, that set their hearts upon it and choose their portion in it, shall take their ruin with it, and the fire then kindled shall never be quenched.

---

Don't those both support annihilationism? I don't read eternal conscious punish,ent in any of that.

---

Correct. If you read carefully, we were discussing the "T" in ECT. I don't know where you see annihilationism.

But I'm glad you're back. In Matt. 18, does the man pay the debt or the master? Can you provide Biblical support for purgatory?

---

Ashes under the soles of their feet.
Utter destruction.
Burnt up the chaff
Were as stubble
Fire that kindled shall never be quenched (the fire shall not be quenched) to me implies destruction and not ECT.

Jesus stated until his debt should be paid. That to me means there is finite punishment until the debt is repaid.

We disagree. I don't read not think anyone is going to hell because of their beliefs on hell. The pastor in the op video specifically states that. I believe there are other primarily Reformed/Calvinist preachers/believers who state the same.

To my knowledge, Augustine not any of the church fathers condemned anyone to hell due to their theology of hell.

dermdoc said:

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Is there any Scripture that says if you don't believe in ECT hell you are going there?

---

This is silly and can't see how there is even a discussion on this specific point. If this preacher actually said that he is way out of bounds.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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No, yes, no.

In Matt. 18, does the man pay the debt or the master? Can you provide Biblical support for purgatory?

---

I would love to hear anbout other Scriptures that speak of eternal punishment. And eternal is not in the Scripture from Matthew that you keep talking about. It is just not there.

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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Is there any Scripture that says if you don't believe in ECT hell you are going there?

---

This is silly and can't see how there is even a discussion on this specific point. If this preacher actually said that he is way out of bounds.

---

Have you watched the video? And I agree it is silly. Do you not believe this is being preached?

10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

---

Is there any Scripture that says if you don't believe in ECT hell you are going there?

---

This is silly and can't see how there is even a discussion on this specific point. If this preacher actually said that he is way out of bounds.

---

He said many who don't believe in it will wake up in it. It wasn't a cause/effect statement like dermdoc is making it out to be.

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

The Banned said:

---

I think the primary issue is not the definition of the E or the C, but the T. That has been viewed different ways by different church fathers, and neither the Catholic or EO's have officially defined it as far as I can find.

---

I can't say I blame them. The manner in which one would be tormented is far out of the scope of what has been revealed to man.

---

I think Mal. 4 gives us a glimpse.

4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.

4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.

5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."

Given v5, this day is obviously the incarnation of Jesus. Beginning with Herod, his enemies burned with rage.

Matthew Henry on Mal. 4:1:
Now this was fulfilled, (1.) When Christ, in his doctrine, spoke terror and condemnation to the proud Pharisees and the other Jews that did wickedly, when he sent that fire on the earth which burnt up the chaff of the traditions of the elders and the corrupt glosses they had put upon the law of God. (2.) When Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, and the nation of the Jews, as a nation, quite blotted out from under heaven, and neither root nor branch left them. This seems to be principally intended here; our Saviour says that those should be the days of vengeance, when all the things that were written to that purport should be fulfilled, Luke 21:22. Then the unbelieving Jews were as stubble to the devouring fire of God's judgments, which gathered together to them as the eagles to the carcase. (3.) It is certainly applicable, and is to be applied, to the day of judgment, to the particular judgment at death (some of the Jewish doctors refer it the punishment that seizes on the souls of the wicked immediately after they go out of the body), but especially to the general judgment, at the end of time, when Christ shall be revealed in flaming fire, to execute judgment on the proud, and all that do wickedly. The whole world shall then burn as an oven, and all the children of this world, that set their hearts upon it and choose their portion in it, shall take their ruin with it, and the fire then kindled shall never be quenched.

---

Don't those both support annihilationism? I don't read eternal conscious punish,ent in any of that.

---

Correct. If you read carefully, we were discussing the "T" in ECT. I don't know where you see annihilationism.

But I'm glad you're back. In Matt. 18, does the man pay the debt or the master? Can you provide Biblical support for purgatory?

---

Ashes under the soles of their feet.
Utter destruction.
Burnt up the chaff
Were as stubble
Fire that kindled shall never be quenched (the fire shall not be quenched) to me implies destruction and not ECT.

Jesus stated until his debt should be paid. That to me means there is finite punishment until the debt is repaid.

We disagree. I don't read not think anyone is going to hell because of their beliefs on hell. The pastor in the op video specifically states that. I believe there are other primarily Reformed/Calvinist preachers/believers who state the same.

To my knowledge, Augustine not any of the church fathers condemned anyone to hell due to their theology of hell.

---

So you think Mal. 4 teaches annihilationism?

dermdoc said:

---

Is there any Scrpture that states Christ came to save us from hell?

Is there any Scripture except possibly Matthew 25:46 that speaks of eternal punishment?

Is there any Scripture that says if you don't believe in ECT hell you are going there?

---

1) 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the deadJesus, who rescues us from the wrath that is coming." This seems to answer your first question.

2) For your second question, I'm not sure why you won't let us use Matthew 25:46, but that's fine. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 will do the trick: "These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." I'm not sure how you decide to interpret Revelation, but there's this in chapter 14, verse 11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image and for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

3) I'm not sure of an answer to #3. I agree with you on it that it seems like a ridiculous premise to begin with.

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

The Banned said:

---

I think the primary issue is not the definition of the E or the C, but the T. That has been viewed different ways by different church fathers, and neither the Catholic or EO's have officially defined it as far as I can find.

---

I can't say I blame them. The manner in which one would be tormented is far out of the scope of what has been revealed to man.

---

I think Mal. 4 gives us a glimpse.

4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.

4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.

5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."

Given v5, this day is obviously the incarnation of Jesus. Beginning with Herod, his enemies burned with rage.

Matthew Henry on Mal. 4:1:
Now this was fulfilled, (1.) When Christ, in his doctrine, spoke terror and condemnation to the proud Pharisees and the other Jews that did wickedly, when he sent that fire on the earth which burnt up the chaff of the traditions of the elders and the corrupt glosses they had put upon the law of God. (2.) When Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, and the nation of the Jews, as a nation, quite blotted out from under heaven, and neither root nor branch left them. This seems to be principally intended here; our Saviour says that those should be the days of vengeance, when all the things that were written to that purport should be fulfilled, Luke 21:22. Then the unbelieving Jews were as stubble to the devouring fire of God's judgments, which gathered together to them as the eagles to the carcase. (3.) It is certainly applicable, and is to be applied, to the day of judgment, to the particular judgment at death (some of the Jewish doctors refer it the punishment that seizes on the souls of the wicked immediately after they go out of the body), but especially to the general judgment, at the end of time, when Christ shall be revealed in flaming fire, to execute judgment on the proud, and all that do wickedly. The whole world shall then burn as an oven, and all the children of this world, that set their hearts upon it and choose their portion in it, shall take their ruin with it, and the fire then kindled shall never be quenched.

---

Don't those both support annihilationism? I don't read eternal conscious punish,ent in any of that.

---

Correct. If you read carefully, we were discussing the "T" in ECT. I don't know where you see annihilationism.

But I'm glad you're back. In Matt. 18, does the man pay the debt or the master? Can you provide Biblical support for purgatory?

---

Ashes under the soles of their feet.
Utter destruction.
Burnt up the chaff
Were as stubble
Fire that kindled shall never be quenched (the fire shall not be quenched) to me implies destruction and not ECT.

Jesus stated until his debt should be paid. That to me means there is finite punishment until the debt is repaid.

We disagree. I don't read not think anyone is going to hell because of their beliefs on hell. The pastor in the op video specifically states that. I believe there are other primarily Reformed/Calvinist preachers/believers who state the same.

To my knowledge, Augustine not any of the church fathers condemned anyone to hell due to their theology of hell.

---

So you think Mal. 4 teaches annihilationism?

---

Yes. Where is eternal punishment in there?

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

The Banned said:

---

I think the primary issue is not the definition of the E or the C, but the T. That has been viewed different ways by different church fathers, and neither the Catholic or EO's have officially defined it as far as I can find.

---

I can't say I blame them. The manner in which one would be tormented is far out of the scope of what has been revealed to man.

---

I think Mal. 4 gives us a glimpse.

4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.

4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.

5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."

Given v5, this day is obviously the incarnation of Jesus. Beginning with Herod, his enemies burned with rage.

Matthew Henry on Mal. 4:1:
Now this was fulfilled, (1.) When Christ, in his doctrine, spoke terror and condemnation to the proud Pharisees and the other Jews that did wickedly, when he sent that fire on the earth which burnt up the chaff of the traditions of the elders and the corrupt glosses they had put upon the law of God. (2.) When Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, and the nation of the Jews, as a nation, quite blotted out from under heaven, and neither root nor branch left them. This seems to be principally intended here; our Saviour says that those should be the days of vengeance, when all the things that were written to that purport should be fulfilled, Luke 21:22. Then the unbelieving Jews were as stubble to the devouring fire of God's judgments, which gathered together to them as the eagles to the carcase. (3.) It is certainly applicable, and is to be applied, to the day of judgment, to the particular judgment at death (some of the Jewish doctors refer it the punishment that seizes on the souls of the wicked immediately after they go out of the body), but especially to the general judgment, at the end of time, when Christ shall be revealed in flaming fire, to execute judgment on the proud, and all that do wickedly. The whole world shall then burn as an oven, and all the children of this world, that set their hearts upon it and choose their portion in it, shall take their ruin with it, and the fire then kindled shall never be quenched.

---

Don't those both support annihilationism? I don't read eternal conscious punish,ent in any of that.

---

Correct. If you read carefully, we were discussing the "T" in ECT. I don't know where you see annihilationism.

But I'm glad you're back. In Matt. 18, does the man pay the debt or the master? Can you provide Biblical support for purgatory?

---

Ashes under the soles of their feet.
Utter destruction.
Burnt up the chaff
Were as stubble
Fire that kindled shall never be quenched (the fire shall not be quenched) to me implies destruction and not ECT.

Jesus stated until his debt should be paid. That to me means there is finite punishment until the debt is repaid.

We disagree. I don't read not think anyone is going to hell because of their beliefs on hell. The pastor in the op video specifically states that. I believe there are other primarily Reformed/Calvinist preachers/believers who state the same.

To my knowledge, Augustine not any of the church fathers condemned anyone to hell due to their theology of hell.

---

So you think Mal. 4 teaches annihilationism?

---

Yes. Where is eternal punishment in there?

---

Ok, so you do believe in annihilationism. Earlier you made it seem like you didn't.

TeddyAg0422 said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Is there any Scrpture that states Christ came to save us from hell?

Is there any Scripture except possibly Matthew 25:46 that speaks of eternal punishment?

Is there any Scripture that says if you don't believe in ECT hell you are going there?

---

1) 1 Thessalonians 1:10 "and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the deadJesus, who rescues us from the wrath that is coming." This seems to answer your first question.

2) For your second question, I'm not sure why you won't let us use Matthew 25:46, but that's fine. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 will do the trick: "These will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." I'm not sure how you decide to interpret Revelation, but there's this in chapter 14, verse 11: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image and for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

3) I'm not sure of an answer to #3. I agree with you on it that it seems like a ridiculous premise to begin with.

---

The wrath that is coming says nothing about eternal conscious torment.

Eternal destruction applies annihilationism. The word punishment is not used.

Both are examples of eisegesis where pre conceived notions are applied to distort the what the words actually say.

And you can "use" Matthew 25:46. But to my knowledge there is no other Scripture that talks of eternal punishment.

Have you looked up the word kolasis which is the Greek word used for punishment here? And compared it to timoria?

Have you looked up aionios? Did you realize how controversial the translation into eternal was/is? There are entire books on it.

I did not until I did some reading.

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Is there any Scripture that says if you don't believe in ECT hell you are going there?

---

This is silly and can't see how there is even a discussion on this specific point. If this preacher actually said that he is way out of bounds.

---

Have you watched the video? And I agree it is silly. Do you not believe this is being preached?

---

I watched it. I think it's a very poorly constructed sermon in some ways, overly theatrical, and probably reflects a self-centered desire for attention that this preacher has. People who use that overly dramatic tone of voice and delivery while giving a sermon always turn me off because they seem to be wanting to make it about themselves rather than the word of God.

However, he didn't say that people are going to hell
If they don't believe in hell. He said a lot of you (I think he means a lot of people) don't actually believe in hell, and they will be shocked because they will wake up in a place they don't believe in.

He didn't say the absence of a belief in hell will CAUSE anyone to go to hell. Although, I bet it correlates almost precisely with an absence of belief in the teachings of Jesus, which could cause one to go to hell.

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

The Banned said:

---

I think the primary issue is not the definition of the E or the C, but the T. That has been viewed different ways by different church fathers, and neither the Catholic or EO's have officially defined it as far as I can find.

---

I can't say I blame them. The manner in which one would be tormented is far out of the scope of what has been revealed to man.

---

I think Mal. 4 gives us a glimpse.

4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.

4 "Remember the law of my servant Moses, the statutes and rules that I commanded him at Horeb for all Israel.

5 "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 6 And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction."

Given v5, this day is obviously the incarnation of Jesus. Beginning with Herod, his enemies burned with rage.

Matthew Henry on Mal. 4:1:
Now this was fulfilled, (1.) When Christ, in his doctrine, spoke terror and condemnation to the proud Pharisees and the other Jews that did wickedly, when he sent that fire on the earth which burnt up the chaff of the traditions of the elders and the corrupt glosses they had put upon the law of God. (2.) When Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, and the nation of the Jews, as a nation, quite blotted out from under heaven, and neither root nor branch left them. This seems to be principally intended here; our Saviour says that those should be the days of vengeance, when all the things that were written to that purport should be fulfilled, Luke 21:22. Then the unbelieving Jews were as stubble to the devouring fire of God's judgments, which gathered together to them as the eagles to the carcase. (3.) It is certainly applicable, and is to be applied, to the day of judgment, to the particular judgment at death (some of the Jewish doctors refer it the punishment that seizes on the souls of the wicked immediately after they go out of the body), but especially to the general judgment, at the end of time, when Christ shall be revealed in flaming fire, to execute judgment on the proud, and all that do wickedly. The whole world shall then burn as an oven, and all the children of this world, that set their hearts upon it and choose their portion in it, shall take their ruin with it, and the fire then kindled shall never be quenched.

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Don't those both support annihilationism? I don't read eternal conscious punish,ent in any of that.

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Correct. If you read carefully, we were discussing the "T" in ECT. I don't know where you see annihilationism.

But I'm glad you're back. In Matt. 18, does the man pay the debt or the master? Can you provide Biblical support for purgatory?

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Ashes under the soles of their feet.
Utter destruction.
Burnt up the chaff
Were as stubble
Fire that kindled shall never be quenched (the fire shall not be quenched) to me implies destruction and not ECT.

Jesus stated until his debt should be paid. That to me means there is finite punishment until the debt is repaid.

We disagree. I don't read not think anyone is going to hell because of their beliefs on hell. The pastor in the op video specifically states that. I believe there are other primarily Reformed/Calvinist preachers/believers who state the same.

To my knowledge, Augustine not any of the church fathers condemned anyone to hell due to their theology of hell.

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So you think Mal. 4 teaches annihilationism?

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Yes. Where is eternal punishment in there?

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Ok, so you do believe in annihilationism. Earlier you made it seem like you didn't.

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I am open to annihilationism. But if you use exegesis and look at verses describing God's desire to save all, verses like Adam damned all and Christ redeemed all, good news to all men, God saves all men especially believers, etc. a case can be made for ultimate reconciliation.

If you look at Scripture, ECT hell has the least evidence to support it.

AozorAg said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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dermdoc said:

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Is there any Scripture that says if you don't believe in ECT hell you are going there?

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This is silly and can't see how there is even a discussion on this specific point. If this preacher actually said that he is way out of bounds.

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Have you watched the video? And I agree it is silly. Do you not believe this is being preached?

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I watched it. I think it's a very poorly constructed sermon in some ways, overly theatrical, and probably reflects a self-centered desire for attention that this preacher has. People who use that overly dramatic tone of voice and delivery while giving a sermon always turn me off because they seem to be wanting to make it about themselves rather than the word of God.

However, he didn't say that people are going to hell
If they don't believe in hell. He said a lot of you (I think he means a lot of people) don't actually believe in hell, and they will be shocked because they will wake up in a place they don't believe in.

He didn't say the absence of a belief in hell will CAUSE anyone to go to hell. Although, I bet it correlates almost precisely with an absence of belief in the teachings of Jesus, which could cause one to go to hell.

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I went back and listened carefully and agree. I implied what his belief was. I was wrong.

So you are saying if you don't believe in hell you probably have an absence of belief in the teachings of Jesus? Hinch kind of is saying the same thing I was. I disagree completely. So does S. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Clement, and others