dermdoc said:

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AozorAg said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

Because He created you and loves you. And knowing Him makes life a lot better.

---

If everyone goes to heaven eventually, then there is fundamentally no need for a belief in Jesus to be saved, no need to even believe in God, and no real point in sharing the gospel. All of that is directly contrary to the core tenets of Christianity.

If you're not a Christian, then that's fine because none of that probably matters to you anyway. But if you do claim to be a Christian, that viewpoint has no biblical support and is irreconcilable with the teachings of Christ. Any references in the Bible to "all men" are clarified by Jesus repeatedly as meaning that salvation is available to all men should they choose to accept it, not that all men will be saved regardless of what they believe.

It sounds like you're arguing for an absence of eternal hell to reassure yourself that you're eventually going to heaven either way. It's normal to seek reassurance of your salvation, but you won't get any reassurance by twisting the words of scripture to mean something directly contrary to what Jesus teaches. That's pointless.

---

Why did Jesus say that He came? And where is a Scripture that says Jesus came to save us from Hell?

I believe in hell as a corrective punishment which is limited in duration. Jesus had to come to overcome sin and death.

I believe salvation is ontological, not judicial. And I am very much a born again Christian. Christ lives in me. I used to be worried about my salvation but have full assurance now. And there are plenty of Christians, even saints, who agree with me.

May I ask if you think it is just to administer eternal conscious torment for simple disbelief? I do not think it is. And I know Gid is just.

---

Here is Jesus speaking my about hell and about why he came to live as a man.

Matthew 5:22: "Whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire."

Matthew 10:28: "Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Mark 9:4348: "It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire…where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched."

Matthew 25:41: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (speaking to those who are not saved on the day of judgment).

Matthew 25:46: "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

John 3:16: "Whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

John 3:17: "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."

Matthew 9:13: "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

John 5:24: "Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

This is a sampling. There are more.

People don't go to hell for disbelief. People go to hell because they have chosen to sin and therefore cannot be in the presence of God. This is the default starting point for every human being, because we are all sinners. Disbelief is the refusal to accept God's remedy for the sin that has already condemned you.

Romans 3:23: "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life."

John 3:18: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

John 8:24: "Unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins."

Because God is just, I think there are varying degrees of punishment in hell. But yes, I do think it is just for a person to experience eternal punishment in the form of conscious torment that is commensurate with their conduct in this life. First, the length of time it takes to commit a sin doesn't have to match the length of the punishment. It takes 1 second to murder or maim someone, and we routinely sentence people to death or life in prison for it. Second, and this is not completely within my grasp as a mere mortal, but I can see how it might be the case sinning against an infinite, eternal God with an infinite eternal law could result in infinite, eternal punishment (again, with varying degrees of severity) if the one sinning does not ask for forgiveness.

But third, and most importantly, it's not unjust if every single person who is condemned to hell by sin is also offered a way to be saved from it. And that is precisely the case. Yes, God is merciful, so he offers everyone the chance to be saved from their sin through Jesus. But if you reject his offer of salvation, you've rejected his mercy. God does not send anyone to hell. People choose to go to hell by rejecting God. If a person wants nothing to do with God, God is not going to force that person into his presence for all eternity. He will honor the free choice they've made.

There are much deeper levels to this conversation, but that's why I think you're wrong at a high level.

AozorAg said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in ECT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

So you're saying that Christianity needs the threat of eternal hell to be relevant? That it doesn't improve anyone's life in this world enough for people to follow it?

---

Christianity doesn't need anything to be relevant, and hell in the context of Christianity is not a threat, so I can't agree with your premise. Christianity in my view is the truth, so it just is what it is. That does include the fact of hell if you choose not to accept salvation through Jesus Christ so that you can be saved from hell and spend eternal life in paradise with a good, loving, and merciful God. But it's not a threat.

If you choose to view it through the lens of it being a threat for not believing, that's your prerogative and I understand. I'm just telling you that hell (1) is not a threat, and (2) is only one part of a much larger equation, not the sole basis of Christian belief.

As far as "improving anyone's life in this world," it depends on what you mean by that. Jesus was crucified. Almost all of his disciplines were murdered. Many Christians throughout history have suffered poverty, loss, grief, pain, persecution, and death. Christianity is not a vehicle for improving your status in life or ensuring a comfortable existence, so it does not necessarily improve anyone's life in that regard. In fact, often the opposite. Jesus said "the world will hate you, just as it hated me first." Tangible life improvements in the material world are not the point of Christianity. But I think any Christian will tell you it does improve one's life on this earth in many non-material ways.

So you believe every person who has ever lived has been given the choice to accept or reject Jesus?

And how can ECT hell not be a threat if you are saying anyone who rejects Jesus ends up there?

I have gone through on here in the past every verse you linked.

I am too lazy to do it again. And I doubt you will read any of the books I linked. You will remain an infernalist and I will not. We are both Christians and Christ followers. I do not know why you questioned my Christianity because of my view on ECT hell. But as I said, I am in good company.
Shalom

dermdoc said:

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AozorAg said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

And even then Jesus mentioned nothing about faith in him.
The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am n op t a Christian because I do not believe in EXT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

---

I didn't say you're not a Christian. I can't know one way or the other. But I am saying you're wrong, based on the portions of scripture I cited above and many others. If don't want to believe those, I can't make you.

I think I already said on this thread that, while I don't agree with the concept of annihilationism, I can at least accept it as a possibility. If "the wages of sin is death" means that torment is hell is not eternal, and eventually those who reject Christ are just erased from existence after their torment is complete, I could understand that, and I can see how that can be biblically justified.

What's not biblically justified, anywhere, is the idea that all people eventually go to heaven whether they reject Christ or not. I cannot agree that is a possibility based on the Bible and the words of Jesus in particular.

AozorAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

And even then Jesus mentioned nothing about faith in him.
The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am n op t a Christian because I do not believe in EXT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

---

I didn't say you're not a Christian. I can't know one way or the other. But I am saying you're wrong, based on the portions of scripture I cited above and many others. If don't want to believe those, I can't make you.

I think I already said on this thread that, while I don't agree with the concept of annihilationism, I can at least accept it as a possibility. If "the wages of sin is death" means that torment is hell is not eternal, and eventually those who reject Christ are just erased from existence after their torment is complete, I could understand that, and I can see how that can be biblically justified.

What's not biblically justified, anywhere, is the idea that all people eventually go to heaven whether they reject Christ or not. I cannot agree that is a possibility based on the Bible and the words of Jesus in particular.

---

So there is no possibility after death to accept Christ?

Do you believe Christ harrowed hell and released non believers that were repentant.

What happens to those who die who never get the chance to accept or reject the Gospel?

AozorAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

Because He created you and loves you. And knowing Him makes life a lot better.

---

If everyone goes to heaven eventually, then there is fundamentally no need for a belief in Jesus to be saved, no need to even believe in God, and no real point in sharing the gospel. All of that is directly contrary to the core tenets of Christianity.

If you're not a Christian, then that's fine because none of that probably matters to you anyway. But if you do claim to be a Christian, that viewpoint has no biblical support and is irreconcilable with the teachings of Christ. Any references in the Bible to "all men" are clarified by Jesus repeatedly as meaning that salvation is available to all men should they choose to accept it, not that all men will be saved regardless of what they believe.

It sounds like you're arguing for an absence of eternal hell to reassure yourself that you're eventually going to heaven either way. It's normal to seek reassurance of your salvation, but you won't get any reassurance by twisting the words of scripture to mean something directly contrary to what Jesus teaches. That's pointless.

---

Read your own words. Sounds like you believe my view on hell is incompatible with Christianity.

dermdoc said:

---

So you believe every person who has ever lived has been given the choice to accept or reject Jesus?

---

Of course not. My posts in this thread are focused on those who have heard of Jesus and have had that chance. There is undoubtedly a subset that have not been given that choice, which we can talk about if you want. Christ's sacrifice applies to all people, before and after him, even if they didn't specifically know about his sacrifice. I believe everybody can know, through nature and consciousness, that God exists if they are earnestly seeking the truth. I personally believe, just like those in the Old Testament who lived before Jesus came and died, that those who earnestly seek God and believe in God will be saved even if they don't know about Jesus. For infants who die from abortion or in child birth, or children who die before the age of moral culpability, I certainly do not believe they go to hell for eternal punishment since they are not morally culpable. That's my view. But what I know with certainty is that God is infinitely and perfectly just, and no person will be treated unfairly in eternity, no matter their situation.

dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

Because He created you and loves you. And knowing Him makes life a lot better.

---

If everyone goes to heaven eventually, then there is fundamentally no need for a belief in Jesus to be saved, no need to even believe in God, and no real point in sharing the gospel. All of that is directly contrary to the core tenets of Christianity.

If you're not a Christian, then that's fine because none of that probably matters to you anyway. But if you do claim to be a Christian, that viewpoint has no biblical support and is irreconcilable with the teachings of Christ. Any references in the Bible to "all men" are clarified by Jesus repeatedly as meaning that salvation is available to all men should they choose to accept it, not that all men will be saved regardless of what they believe.

It sounds like you're arguing for an absence of eternal hell to reassure yourself that you're eventually going to heaven either way. It's normal to seek reassurance of your salvation, but you won't get any reassurance by twisting the words of scripture to mean something directly contrary to what Jesus teaches. That's pointless.

---

Read your own words. Sounds like you believe my view on hell is incompatible with Christianity.

---

Yes, I can read my words. I wrote them after all. I believe your view on hell is inconsistent with the Bible and incorrect because, if it were true, it would invalidate core tenets of Christianity, such as the fact that belief in Jesus Christ (for anyone who has had the chance to accept or reject him) is a prerequisite to salvation and eternal life in heaven.

That's not to say I don't think you're a Christian. I don't know your heart. Actually, I think it's commendable that you want ultimate reconciliation to be true, because I think it reflects a desire for everyone to go to heaven, which is a good thing. I just think you're incorrect. That doesn't make you a non-Christian by itself. I'm sure I am incorrect about some things I believe as well with respect to the spiritual and eternity.

So you believe every person gets a chance to decide to accept or reject Christ?

Even those who never hear of Him before they die?

See my post right above that one.

dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in ECT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

---

You've thrown his name around a few times, but David Bentley Hart is not your friend and will lead you astray. He's been called out specifically by someone who declined to write a review of that book on a very prominent EO podcast. If an EO priest can quote St Gregory of Nysa and say hart is wrong, I'd caution you in reading them together as coherent.

AozorAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

So you believe every person who has ever lived has been given the choice to accept or reject Jesus?

---

Of course not. My posts in this thread are focused on those who have heard of Jesus and have had that chance. There is undoubtedly a subset that have not been given that choice, which we can talk about if you want. Christ's sacrifice applies to all people, before and after him, even if they didn't specifically know about his sacrifice. I believe everybody can know, through nature and consciousness, that God exists if they are earnestly seeking the truth. I personally believe, just like those in the Old Testament who lived before Jesus came and died, that those who earnestly seek God and believe in God will be saved even if they don't know about Jesus. For infants who die from abortion or in child birth, or children who die before the age of moral culpability, I certainly do not believe they go to hell for eternal punishment since they are not morally culpable. That's my view. But what I know with certainty is that God is infinitely and perfectly just, and no person will be treated unfairly in eternity, no matter their situation.

---

So where is the age of moral culpability in Scripture?

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in ECT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

---

You've thrown his name around a few times, but David Bentley Hart is not your friend and will lead you astray. He's been called out specifically by someone who declined to write a review of that book on a very prominent EO podcast. If an EO priest can quote St Gregory of Nysa and say hart is wrong, I'd caution you in reading them together as coherent.

---

Do you read Jonathan Edwards? I would say the same about him.

And who called out Hart and praised St. Gregory of Nyssa? Was it because of theology or Hart's bombastic tone?

dermdoc said:

---

So you believe every person who has ever lived has been given the choice to accept or reject Jesus?

And how can ECT hell not be a threat if you are saying anyone who rejects Jesus ends up there?

I have gone through on here in the past every verse you linked.

I am too lazy to do it again. And I doubt you will read any of the books I linked. You will remain an infernalist and I will not. We are both Christians and Christ followers. I do not know why you questioned my Christianity because of my view on ECT hell. But as I said, I am in good company.
Shalom

---

1. No, I don't believe that. See above.

2. A threat implies some kind of ulterior motive. Jesus had no ulterior motive. He warned people about hell because (1) it is real, and (2) he doesn't want anyone to go there. A warning or statement of fact is not a threat. If I tell you, "hey dermdoc, please don't drive on the left side of the road or you'll get in a head-collision," that's not a threat. I'm telling you that because (1) it's true, and (2) I don't want it to happen to you. Do some Christians (self-proclaimed anyway) attempt to leverage the idea of hell with an ulterior motive of growing their churches, increasing donations, or playing on people's emotions? Sure. But that's not why Jesus talked about hell.

3. If you've gone through every verse already and still don't believe in any kind of eternal hell or consequence for sins, there's nothing else I can say to help you. Pray and ask God for clarity.

dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

So you believe every person who has ever lived has been given the choice to accept or reject Jesus?

---

Of course not. My posts in this thread are focused on those who have heard of Jesus and have had that chance. There is undoubtedly a subset that have not been given that choice, which we can talk about if you want. Christ's sacrifice applies to all people, before and after him, even if they didn't specifically know about his sacrifice. I believe everybody can know, through nature and consciousness, that God exists if they are earnestly seeking the truth. I personally believe, just like those in the Old Testament who lived before Jesus came and died, that those who earnestly seek God and believe in God will be saved even if they don't know about Jesus. For infants who die from abortion or in child birth, or children who die before the age of moral culpability, I certainly do not believe they go to hell for eternal punishment since they are not morally culpable. That's my view. But what I know with certainty is that God is infinitely and perfectly just, and no person will be treated unfairly in eternity, no matter their situation.

---

So where is the age of moral culpability in Scripture?

---

There is no age of moral culpability stated in scripture, and I don't take a position on what that age might be. If there is one, it's probably different for every single person. That's just my view, as I already said. Fortunately an omniscient God knows precisely who is morally culpable for their actions and who is not. Again, what I do know is that God is infinitely and eternally just, and nobody will be treated unfairly in eternity, no matter their situation.

AozorAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

So you believe every person who has ever lived has been given the choice to accept or reject Jesus?

And how can ECT hell not be a threat if you are saying anyone who rejects Jesus ends up there?

I have gone through on here in the past every verse you linked.

I am too lazy to do it again. And I doubt you will read any of the books I linked. You will remain an infernalist and I will not. We are both Christians and Christ followers. I do not know why you questioned my Christianity because of my view on ECT hell. But as I said, I am in good company.
Shalom

---

1. No, I don't believe that. See above.

2. A threat implies some kind of ulterior motive. Jesus had no ulterior motive. He warned people about hell because (1) it is real, and (2) he doesn't want anyone to go there. A warning or statement of fact is not a threat. If tell you, "hey dermdoc, please don't drive on the left side of the road or you'll get in a head-collision," that's not a threat. I'm telling that because (1) it's true, and (2) I don't want it to happen to you. Do some Christians (self-proclaimed anyway) attempt to leverage the idea of hell with an ulterior motive of growing their churches, increasing donations, or playing on people's emotions? Sure. But that's not why Jesus talked about hell.

3. If you've gone through every verse already and still don't believe in any kind of eternal hell or punishment for sins, there's nothing else I can say to help you. Pray and ask God for clarity.

---

That is fairly smug way of saying you are right and I am wrong. Which is fine, but there are very smart folks who read those verses and do not come to the same conclusion as you.

I know not everybody comes to the same conclusion as me.

And there is nothing I can do if you read those Scriptures and come to those ideas. I disagree. Will pray you receive clarity and discernment.

May I ask if ECT hell was present in the OT? Or Judaism?

To my knowledge the only verse that might be about "hell" is the verse in Daniel talking about everlasting shame and contempt which is not torture.

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in ECT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

---

You've thrown his name around a few times, but David Bentley Hart is not your friend and will lead you astray. He's been called out specifically by someone who declined to write a review of that book on a very prominent EO podcast. If an EO priest can quote St Gregory of Nysa and say hart is wrong, I'd caution you in reading them together as coherent.

---

Do you read Jonathan Edwards? I would say the same about him.

And who called out Hart and praised St. Gregory of Nyssa? Was it because of theology or Hart's bombastic tone?

---

Fr. Stephen de Young on the basis of his theology. It's not that he praised St. Gregory and condemned Hart, it's that he's well versed in orthodox theology and knows Hart doesn't mix with it. So if St. Gregory has something to say, it's likely different than Hart.

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in ECT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

---

You've thrown his name around a few times, but David Bentley Hart is not your friend and will lead you astray. He's been called out specifically by someone who declined to write a review of that book on a very prominent EO podcast. If an EO priest can quote St Gregory of Nysa and say hart is wrong, I'd caution you in reading them together as coherent.

---

Do you read Jonathan Edwards? I would say the same about him.

And who called out Hart and praised St. Gregory of Nyssa? Was it because of theology or Hart's bombastic tone?

---

Fr. Stephen de Young on the basis of his theology. It's not that he praised St. Gregory and condemned Hart, it's that he's well versed in orthodox theology and knows Hart doesn't mix with it. So if St. Gregory has something to say, it's likely different than Hart.

---

I am not disputing DeYoung as I respect him. Will do some reading but St. Gregory was an ultimate reconciliation guy like Hart. So DeYoung might not think St. Gregory is compatible with traditional Orthodox teachings either.

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in ECT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

---

You've thrown his name around a few times, but David Bentley Hart is not your friend and will lead you astray. He's been called out specifically by someone who declined to write a review of that book on a very prominent EO podcast. If an EO priest can quote St Gregory of Nysa and say hart is wrong, I'd caution you in reading them together as coherent.

---

Do you read Jonathan Edwards? I would say the same about him.

And who called out Hart and praised St. Gregory of Nyssa? Was it because of theology or Hart's bombastic tone?

---

Fr. Stephen de Young on the basis of his theology. It's not that he praised St. Gregory and condemned Hart, it's that he's well versed in orthodox theology and knows Hart doesn't mix with it. So if St. Gregory has something to say, it's likely different than Hart.

---

I am not disputing DeYoung as I respect him. Will do some reading but St. Gregory was an ultimate reconciliation guy like Hart. So DeYoung might not think St. Gregory is compatible with traditional Orthodox teachings either.

---

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lord-of-spirits/id1531206254?i=1000625635424

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in ECT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

---

You've thrown his name around a few times, but David Bentley Hart is not your friend and will lead you astray. He's been called out specifically by someone who declined to write a review of that book on a very prominent EO podcast. If an EO priest can quote St Gregory of Nysa and say hart is wrong, I'd caution you in reading them together as coherent.

---

Do you read Jonathan Edwards? I would say the same about him.

And who called out Hart and praised St. Gregory of Nyssa? Was it because of theology or Hart's bombastic tone?

---

Fr. Stephen de Young on the basis of his theology. It's not that he praised St. Gregory and condemned Hart, it's that he's well versed in orthodox theology and knows Hart doesn't mix with it. So if St. Gregory has something to say, it's likely different than Hart.

---

I am not disputing DeYoung as I respect him. Will do some reading but St. Gregory was an ultimate reconciliation guy like Hart. So DeYoung might not think St. Gregory is compatible with traditional Orthodox teachings either.

---

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lord-of-spirits/id1531206254?i=1000625635424

---

3 hours and 20 minutes? I have started listening.
And my early thought is they do not believe ultimate reconciliation is compatible with Orthodox. Which means they disagree with St. Gregory for the most part. And he is considered a saint in the Orthodox Church. I think their take is that it is okay in Orthodoxy to hope for the salvation of all but not to declare emphatically that all are saved like Hart does. Pretty fine line.
Make you a deal, if I listen to this read one of the books I linked.

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in ECT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

---

You've thrown his name around a few times, but David Bentley Hart is not your friend and will lead you astray. He's been called out specifically by someone who declined to write a review of that book on a very prominent EO podcast. If an EO priest can quote St Gregory of Nysa and say hart is wrong, I'd caution you in reading them together as coherent.

---

Do you read Jonathan Edwards? I would say the same about him.

And who called out Hart and praised St. Gregory of Nyssa? Was it because of theology or Hart's bombastic tone?

---

Fr. Stephen de Young on the basis of his theology. It's not that he praised St. Gregory and condemned Hart, it's that he's well versed in orthodox theology and knows Hart doesn't mix with it. So if St. Gregory has something to say, it's likely different than Hart.

---

I am not disputing DeYoung as I respect him. Will do some reading but St. Gregory was an ultimate reconciliation guy like Hart. So DeYoung might not think St. Gregory is compatible with traditional Orthodox teachings either.

---

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lord-of-spirits/id1531206254?i=1000625635424

---

3 hours and 20 minutes? I have started listening.

Make you a deal, if I listen to this read one of the books ai linked.

---

I own the complete works of Jonathan Edward's. Where should I start?

AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

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AozorAg said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in ECT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

---

You've thrown his name around a few times, but David Bentley Hart is not your friend and will lead you astray. He's been called out specifically by someone who declined to write a review of that book on a very prominent EO podcast. If an EO priest can quote St Gregory of Nysa and say hart is wrong, I'd caution you in reading them together as coherent.

---

Do you read Jonathan Edwards? I would say the same about him.

And who called out Hart and praised St. Gregory of Nyssa? Was it because of theology or Hart's bombastic tone?

---

Fr. Stephen de Young on the basis of his theology. It's not that he praised St. Gregory and condemned Hart, it's that he's well versed in orthodox theology and knows Hart doesn't mix with it. So if St. Gregory has something to say, it's likely different than Hart.

---

I am not disputing DeYoung as I respect him. Will do some reading but St. Gregory was an ultimate reconciliation guy like Hart. So DeYoung might not think St. Gregory is compatible with traditional Orthodox teachings either.

---

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lord-of-spirits/id1531206254?i=1000625635424

---

3 hours and 20 minutes? I have started listening.

Make you a deal, if I listen to this read one of the books ai linked.

---

I own the complete works of Jonathan Edward's. Where should I start?

---

Wonder what the Orthodox think of him. Or Calvin. Sinners in the hands of an angry God and double predestination are not Orthodox theology as far as I know.

It always amazes me how disagreeing with the concept of ECT hell supposedly undermines the whole Gospel. Even if ECT hell is true it is such a small part of what Jesus taught.
And never mentioned by Paul. Never mentioned in Acts.
Seems strange to me given the gravity of the subject.

AozorAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

So you believe every person who has ever lived has been given the choice to accept or reject Jesus?

---

Of course not. My posts in this thread are focused on those who have heard of Jesus and have had that chance. There is undoubtedly a subset that have not been given that choice, which we can talk about if you want. Christ's sacrifice applies to all people, before and after him, even if they didn't specifically know about his sacrifice. I believe everybody can know, through nature and consciousness, that God exists if they are earnestly seeking the truth. I personally believe, just like those in the Old Testament who lived before Jesus came and died, that those who earnestly seek God and believe in God will be saved even if they don't know about Jesus. For infants who die from abortion or in child birth, or children who die before the age of moral culpability, I certainly do not believe they go to hell for eternal punishment since they are not morally culpable. That's my view. But what I know with certainty is that God is infinitely and perfectly just, and no person will be treated unfairly in eternity, no matter their situation.

---

So where is the age of moral culpability in Scripture?

---

There is no age of moral culpability stated in scripture, and I don't take a position on what that age might be. If there is one, it's probably different for every single person. That's just my view, as I already said. Fortunately an omniscient God knows precisely who is morally culpable for their actions and who is not. Again, what I do know is that God is infinitely and eternally just, and nobody will be treated unfairly in eternity, no matter their situation.

---

I agree. And I was raised Baptist too. Baptized and profession of faith. Been Deacon chair twice. Taught Sunday school for years. Ran a ton of committees. The whole deal.
Never understood the need for eternal punishment. Sorry.

Edward's sermon you mentioned is as orthodox as it gets...just has a scary title so must be bad!

It covers our sinful human condition, God's anger towards sin, our total dependency on God's mercy, and a call to repent.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Edward's sermon you mentioned is as orthodox as it gets...just has a scary title so must be bad!

It covers our sinful human condition, God's anger towards sin, our total dependency on God's mercy, and a call to repent.

---

No my friend. God is love. Sometimes I almost think some want people to go to "Hell". And I believe Edwards thought that also.

And that would definitely not be Orthodox.

dermdoc said:

---

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Edward's sermon you mentioned is as orthodox as it gets...just has a scary title so must be bad!

It covers our sinful human condition, God's anger towards sin, our total dependency on God's mercy, and a call to repent.

---

No my friend. God is love. Sometimes I almost think some want people to go to "Hell". And I believe Edwards thought that also.

And that would definitely not be Orthodox. There view on hell is ontological not judicial. As is mine

---

dermdoc said:

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AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in ECT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

---

You've thrown his name around a few times, but David Bentley Hart is not your friend and will lead you astray. He's been called out specifically by someone who declined to write a review of that book on a very prominent EO podcast. If an EO priest can quote St Gregory of Nysa and say hart is wrong, I'd caution you in reading them together as coherent.

---

Do you read Jonathan Edwards? I would say the same about him.

And who called out Hart and praised St. Gregory of Nyssa? Was it because of theology or Hart's bombastic tone?

---

Fr. Stephen de Young on the basis of his theology. It's not that he praised St. Gregory and condemned Hart, it's that he's well versed in orthodox theology and knows Hart doesn't mix with it. So if St. Gregory has something to say, it's likely different than Hart.

---

I am not disputing DeYoung as I respect him. Will do some reading but St. Gregory was an ultimate reconciliation guy like Hart. So DeYoung might not think St. Gregory is compatible with traditional Orthodox teachings either.

---

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lord-of-spirits/id1531206254?i=1000625635424

---

3 hours and 20 minutes? I have started listening.

Make you a deal, if I listen to this read one of the books ai linked.

---

I own the complete works of Jonathan Edward's. Where should I start?

---

Wonder what the Orthodox think of him. Or Calvin. Sinners in the hands of an angry God and double predestination are not Orthodox theology as far as I know.

It always amazes me how disagreeing with the concept of ECT hell supposedly undermines the whole Gospel. Even if ECT hell is true it is such a small part of what Jesus taught.
And never mentioned by Paul. Never mentioned in Acts.
Seems strange to me given the gravity of the subject.

---

First, Jesus talks about eternal punishment, and hell specifically. I would prioritize that over what Paul says.

Second, I'm not sure why you are so focused on Acts.

Philippians 3:1819: "For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things."

2 Thessalonians 1:89: "[He will come in] flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction"

Ephesians 5:56: "For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

Paul makes quite clear that those who reject God will not inherit the Kingdom of God and will be eternally destroyed.

Again, I don't agree with annihilationism, but I can understand why some people subscribe to it because there are passages that talk about destruction and death as opposed to eternal punishment. Either way, whatever the consequence is for rejecting God, scripture (including both Jesus and Paul) makes abundantly clear that it is permanent, not a temporary corrective process that ends up at the same place as salvation through Christ.

AozorAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in ECT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

---

You've thrown his name around a few times, but David Bentley Hart is not your friend and will lead you astray. He's been called out specifically by someone who declined to write a review of that book on a very prominent EO podcast. If an EO priest can quote St Gregory of Nysa and say hart is wrong, I'd caution you in reading them together as coherent.

---

Do you read Jonathan Edwards? I would say the same about him.

And who called out Hart and praised St. Gregory of Nyssa? Was it because of theology or Hart's bombastic tone?

---

Fr. Stephen de Young on the basis of his theology. It's not that he praised St. Gregory and condemned Hart, it's that he's well versed in orthodox theology and knows Hart doesn't mix with it. So if St. Gregory has something to say, it's likely different than Hart.

---

I am not disputing DeYoung as I respect him. Will do some reading but St. Gregory was an ultimate reconciliation guy like Hart. So DeYoung might not think St. Gregory is compatible with traditional Orthodox teachings either.

---

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lord-of-spirits/id1531206254?i=1000625635424

---

3 hours and 20 minutes? I have started listening.

Make you a deal, if I listen to this read one of the books ai linked.

---

I own the complete works of Jonathan Edward's. Where should I start?

---

Wonder what the Orthodox think of him. Or Calvin. Sinners in the hands of an angry God and double predestination are not Orthodox theology as far as I know.

It always amazes me how disagreeing with the concept of ECT hell supposedly undermines the whole Gospel. Even if ECT hell is true it is such a small part of what Jesus taught.
And never mentioned by Paul. Never mentioned in Acts.
Seems strange to me given the gravity of the subject.

---

First, Jesus talks about eternal punishment, and hell specifically. I would prioritize that over what Paul says.

Second, I'm not sure why you are so focused on Acts.

Philippians 3:1819: "For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things."

2 Thessalonians 1:89: "[He will come in] flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction"

Ephesians 5:56: "For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

Paul makes quite clear that those who reject God will not inherit the Kingdom of God and will be eternally destroyed.

Again, I don't agree with annihilationism, but I can understand why some people subscribe to it because there are passages that talk about destruction and death as opposed to eternal punishment. Either way, whatever the consequence is for rejecting God, scripture (including both Jesus and Paul) makes abundantly clear that it is permanent, not a temporary corrective process that ends up at the same place as salvation through Christ.

---

Every verse you mentioned talks of eternal destruction. And it is all salvation through Christ.

Scripture is much more affirmative on
Annihilationism and ultimate reconciliation than ECT hell.

And can I get a link where Paul mentioned ECT hell? Or any of the apostles in Acts?

dermdoc said:

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AozorAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in ECT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

---

You've thrown his name around a few times, but David Bentley Hart is not your friend and will lead you astray. He's been called out specifically by someone who declined to write a review of that book on a very prominent EO podcast. If an EO priest can quote St Gregory of Nysa and say hart is wrong, I'd caution you in reading them together as coherent.

---

Do you read Jonathan Edwards? I would say the same about him.

And who called out Hart and praised St. Gregory of Nyssa? Was it because of theology or Hart's bombastic tone?

---

Fr. Stephen de Young on the basis of his theology. It's not that he praised St. Gregory and condemned Hart, it's that he's well versed in orthodox theology and knows Hart doesn't mix with it. So if St. Gregory has something to say, it's likely different than Hart.

---

I am not disputing DeYoung as I respect him. Will do some reading but St. Gregory was an ultimate reconciliation guy like Hart. So DeYoung might not think St. Gregory is compatible with traditional Orthodox teachings either.

---

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lord-of-spirits/id1531206254?i=1000625635424

---

3 hours and 20 minutes? I have started listening.

Make you a deal, if I listen to this read one of the books ai linked.

---

I own the complete works of Jonathan Edward's. Where should I start?

---

Wonder what the Orthodox think of him. Or Calvin. Sinners in the hands of an angry God and double predestination are not Orthodox theology as far as I know.

It always amazes me how disagreeing with the concept of ECT hell supposedly undermines the whole Gospel. Even if ECT hell is true it is such a small part of what Jesus taught.
And never mentioned by Paul. Never mentioned in Acts.
Seems strange to me given the gravity of the subject.

---

First, Jesus talks about eternal punishment, and hell specifically. I would prioritize that over what Paul says.

Second, I'm not sure why you are so focused on Acts.

Philippians 3:1819: "For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things."

2 Thessalonians 1:89: "[He will come in] flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction"

Ephesians 5:56: "For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

Paul makes quite clear that those who reject God will not inherit the Kingdom of God and will be eternally destroyed.

Again, I don't agree with annihilationism, but I can understand why some people subscribe to it because there are passages that talk about destruction and death as opposed to eternal punishment. Either way, whatever the consequence is for rejecting God, scripture (including both Jesus and Paul) makes abundantly clear that it is permanent, not a temporary corrective process that ends up at the same place as salvation through Christ.

---

Every verse you mentioned talks of eternal destruction. And it is all salvation through Christ.

Scripture is much more affirmative on
Annihilationism and ultimate reconciliation than ECT hell.

And can I get a link where Paul mentioned ECT hell? Or any of the apostles in Acts?

---

Scripture does not support ultimate reconciliation. You are twisting it to your own end of desiring ultimate reconciliation.

You seem not to be reading what I'm saying. I've already stated that I think annihilationism is a justifiable position even though I don't agree with it. Paul does talk more in terms of annihilationism. I'm not going to look up verses where the apostles talk about eternal torment in hell because Jesus himself talks about it, and that's infinitely superior.

My point is that, whether it's eternal torment or actual spiritual death, the apostles and Jesus all agree that the consequence for rejecting God is PERMAMENT. Ultimate reconciliation is not biblical. If you were relying on Jesus and the apostles for your position on what happens when somebody who has rejected God dies, I don't think you could possibly believe in ultimate reconciliation.

10andBOUNCE said:

---

Edward's sermon you mentioned is as orthodox as it gets...just has a scary title so must be bad!

It covers our sinful human condition, God's anger towards sin, our total dependency on God's mercy, and a call to repent.

---

You asked any Orthodox folks about that?

AozorAg said:

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dermdoc said:

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AozorAg said:

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dermdoc said:

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AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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AozorAg said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in ECT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

---

You've thrown his name around a few times, but David Bentley Hart is not your friend and will lead you astray. He's been called out specifically by someone who declined to write a review of that book on a very prominent EO podcast. If an EO priest can quote St Gregory of Nysa and say hart is wrong, I'd caution you in reading them together as coherent.

---

Do you read Jonathan Edwards? I would say the same about him.

And who called out Hart and praised St. Gregory of Nyssa? Was it because of theology or Hart's bombastic tone?

---

Fr. Stephen de Young on the basis of his theology. It's not that he praised St. Gregory and condemned Hart, it's that he's well versed in orthodox theology and knows Hart doesn't mix with it. So if St. Gregory has something to say, it's likely different than Hart.

---

I am not disputing DeYoung as I respect him. Will do some reading but St. Gregory was an ultimate reconciliation guy like Hart. So DeYoung might not think St. Gregory is compatible with traditional Orthodox teachings either.

---

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lord-of-spirits/id1531206254?i=1000625635424

---

3 hours and 20 minutes? I have started listening.

Make you a deal, if I listen to this read one of the books ai linked.

---

I own the complete works of Jonathan Edward's. Where should I start?

---

Wonder what the Orthodox think of him. Or Calvin. Sinners in the hands of an angry God and double predestination are not Orthodox theology as far as I know.

It always amazes me how disagreeing with the concept of ECT hell supposedly undermines the whole Gospel. Even if ECT hell is true it is such a small part of what Jesus taught.
And never mentioned by Paul. Never mentioned in Acts.
Seems strange to me given the gravity of the subject.

---

First, Jesus talks about eternal punishment, and hell specifically. I would prioritize that over what Paul says.

Second, I'm not sure why you are so focused on Acts.

Philippians 3:1819: "For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things."

2 Thessalonians 1:89: "[He will come in] flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction"

Ephesians 5:56: "For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

Paul makes quite clear that those who reject God will not inherit the Kingdom of God and will be eternally destroyed.

Again, I don't agree with annihilationism, but I can understand why some people subscribe to it because there are passages that talk about destruction and death as opposed to eternal punishment. Either way, whatever the consequence is for rejecting God, scripture (including both Jesus and Paul) makes abundantly clear that it is permanent, not a temporary corrective process that ends up at the same place as salvation through Christ.

---

Every verse you mentioned talks of eternal destruction. And it is all salvation through Christ.

Scripture is much more affirmative on
Annihilationism and ultimate reconciliation than ECT hell.

And can I get a link where Paul mentioned ECT hell? Or any of the apostles in Acts?

---

Scripture does not support ultimate reconciliation. You are twisting it to your own end of desiring ultimate reconciliation.

You seem not to be reading what I'm saying. I've already stated that I think annihilationism is a justifiable position even though I don't agree with it. Paul does talk more in terms of annihilationism. I'm not going to look up verses where the apostles talk about eternal torment in hell because Jesus himself talks about it, and that's infinitely superior.

My point is that, whether it's eternal torment or actual spiritual death, the apostles and Jesus all agree that the consequence for rejecting God is PERMAMENT. Ultimate reconciliation is not biblical. If you were relying on Jesus and the apostles for your position on what happens when somebody who has rejected God dies, I don't think you could possibly believe in ultimate reconciliation.

---

Link to where eternal destination is permanent in Scripture. Do you believe Christ harrowed "Hell"? And sorry but it is possible I believe in ultimate reconciliation.

Quote:

---

Scripture does not support ultimate reconciliation.

---

I'm no sure if that is the case:

Quote:

---

Colossians 1:20 (NIV): "...and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross".
Romans 5:18 (NIV): "Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people".
1 Corinthians 15:22 (NIV): "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive".
Philippians 2:10-11 (NIV): "...that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord...".
2 Peter 3:9 (NIV): "...He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance".

---

Only He knows, ultimately, but I strongly empathize with Derm's position on this.

I'm mostly persuaded to the idea of a postmortem burning away of impurities that belief in Christ can allow you to bypass. But, the notion of ultimate reconciliation fits quite well with my conceptualizaion of the Divine Father.

dermdoc said:

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AozorAg said:

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dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

light_bulb said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

BonfireNerd04 said:

---

Martin Q. Blank said:

---

We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

---

Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

---

I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

---

And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

---

I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

---

You lose at the words "I don't think".

---

I have no idea what you are saying.

---

You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

---

He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

---

To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

---

First of all, define hell.

---

If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

---

Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

---

Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

---

You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

---

Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in ECT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

---

You've thrown his name around a few times, but David Bentley Hart is not your friend and will lead you astray. He's been called out specifically by someone who declined to write a review of that book on a very prominent EO podcast. If an EO priest can quote St Gregory of Nysa and say hart is wrong, I'd caution you in reading them together as coherent.

---

Do you read Jonathan Edwards? I would say the same about him.

And who called out Hart and praised St. Gregory of Nyssa? Was it because of theology or Hart's bombastic tone?

---

Fr. Stephen de Young on the basis of his theology. It's not that he praised St. Gregory and condemned Hart, it's that he's well versed in orthodox theology and knows Hart doesn't mix with it. So if St. Gregory has something to say, it's likely different than Hart.

---

I am not disputing DeYoung as I respect him. Will do some reading but St. Gregory was an ultimate reconciliation guy like Hart. So DeYoung might not think St. Gregory is compatible with traditional Orthodox teachings either.

---

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lord-of-spirits/id1531206254?i=1000625635424

---

3 hours and 20 minutes? I have started listening.

Make you a deal, if I listen to this read one of the books ai linked.

---

I own the complete works of Jonathan Edward's. Where should I start?

---

Wonder what the Orthodox think of him. Or Calvin. Sinners in the hands of an angry God and double predestination are not Orthodox theology as far as I know.

It always amazes me how disagreeing with the concept of ECT hell supposedly undermines the whole Gospel. Even if ECT hell is true it is such a small part of what Jesus taught.
And never mentioned by Paul. Never mentioned in Acts.
Seems strange to me given the gravity of the subject.

---

First, Jesus talks about eternal punishment, and hell specifically. I would prioritize that over what Paul says.

Second, I'm not sure why you are so focused on Acts.

Philippians 3:1819: "For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things."

2 Thessalonians 1:89: "[He will come in] flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction"

Ephesians 5:56: "For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

Paul makes quite clear that those who reject God will not inherit the Kingdom of God and will be eternally destroyed.

Again, I don't agree with annihilationism, but I can understand why some people subscribe to it because there are passages that talk about destruction and death as opposed to eternal punishment. Either way, whatever the consequence is for rejecting God, scripture (including both Jesus and Paul) makes abundantly clear that it is permanent, not a temporary corrective process that ends up at the same place as salvation through Christ.

---

Every verse you mentioned talks of eternal destruction. And it is all salvation through Christ.

Scripture is much more affirmative on
Annihilationism and ultimate reconciliation than ECT hell.

And can I get a link where Paul mentioned ECT hell? Or any of the apostles in Acts?

---

Scripture does not support ultimate reconciliation. You are twisting it to your own end of desiring ultimate reconciliation.

You seem not to be reading what I'm saying. I've already stated that I think annihilationism is a justifiable position even though I don't agree with it. Paul does talk more in terms of annihilationism. I'm not going to look up verses where the apostles talk about eternal torment in hell because Jesus himself talks about it, and that's infinitely superior.

My point is that, whether it's eternal torment or actual spiritual death, the apostles and Jesus all agree that the consequence for rejecting God is PERMAMENT. Ultimate reconciliation is not biblical. If you were relying on Jesus and the apostles for your position on what happens when somebody who has rejected God dies, I don't think you could possibly believe in ultimate reconciliation.

---

Link to where eternal destination is permanent in Scripture. Do you believe Christ harrowed "Hell"? And sorry but it is possible I believe in ultimate reconciliation.

---

All of the verses I've quoted to you in this thread, which is about 20, from both Jesus and Paul. Go back and read them. And there are many more. If you don't want to read them or believe them, I can't make you.

AozorAg said:

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dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AozorAg said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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AGC said:

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dermdoc said:

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AozorAg said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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light_bulb said:

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dermdoc said:

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BonfireNerd04 said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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We have a tiered justice system. We understand it.

If I get a speeding ticket, the fine is $200.
Reckless driving is more severe and necessitates a stricter punishment - maybe a higher fine or revoking license.
Trespassing, shoplifting - jail time?
Drunk driving, domestic violence, car theft, drug possession - prison less than a year.
Aggravated assault, grand larceny, drug distribution - 5-10 years.
Human trafficking, rape, attempted murder, manslaughter - 20+ years.

At some point you get to the point that no amount of time satisfies the crime - first degree murder, murder of a child, terrorist attack, etc. - and requires death.

What kind of punishment correlates to Christ's punishment on the cross? What amount of time can we say "ok, that's about what Christ endured"? Whatever hell is, I don't have any problem with the idea of it being eternal. And Jesus called it eternal.

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Again, what sin deserves eternal conscious torture?

Suppose, for example, than after Adolf Hitler killed himself, God told him, "Because you have the prime responsibility for starting World War 2, in which almost 100 million people died, I'm sentencing you to 1000 years of hellfire for each count of murder. See you in 100 billion years."

That's a long amount of time, more than any mainstream scientific estimate for the age of the universe. But it's still a finite amount of time. Do you think it would be enough? How about a trillion years? A quadrillion years? A googol years?

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I am convinced that the vast majority of infernalists have not really thought about this at depth.

It is far beyond what any of the most evil people have ever done. And they want to say God ordains this and administers the punishment.

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And if, contrary to the boundaries you establish for God, He does ordain and administer this?

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I am not putting any boundaries on God. I do not think the God of love as described in Scripture would do this.

There are a lot of verses in the OT where God ended the lives of people. Nothing about ECT hell. Not a whisper.

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You lose at the words "I don't think".

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I have no idea what you are saying.

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You don't think God will send someone to ECT hell. What if he does?

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He can do whatever He wants. I firmly believe He will send no one to hell.

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To be clear, no one, meaning not one single human being to have ever been born will go to hell. Not one soul?

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First of all, define hell.

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If I outright reject God, do you think I will experience Hell?

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Yes. But it is corrective not punitive. And not eternal.

Can you define hell?

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Then why should I give a damn about what your God has to say?

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You're exactly right. If hell was neither punitive nor eternal, then there would ultimately be no need for you, as a non-Christian, to care about anything Jesus teaches or make any effort to adhere to it. Things would suck for a while, but eventually you would get into heaven anyway. That's not consistent with Christianity.

If you want nothing to do with Jesus/God, you will get exactly what you want for eternity. God is the source of all love, all goodness, and all mercy. Whatever hell is, we know it will be entirely devoid of those things. If you don't believe in God or Christian teachings, I would urge you to at least be open-minded to it. If you earnestly seek the truth and ask God, "if you exist, help me come to know you," I believe he will. If you're not open to it, I understand, but I do hope you'll try.

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Ultimate reconciliation had a lot of backing in the early church. St. Gregory of Nyssa, the other Gregory, Clement of Alexandria, etc.

I strongly recommend Keith Giles's book "Jesus undefeated, condemning the false doctrine of eternal torment", David Bentley Hart "That all shall be Saved", or Julie Ferwerda "Raisinf hell".

Or read any of St. Gregory, George Macdonald, or a lot of others.

Avoiding ECT hell should be the biggest thrust of the Gospel if it exists. Yet Paul never used the word hell. Hell is not mentioned in the Acts of the apostles.

Jesus mentioned eternal punishment once possibly in Matthew 25:46 but that is a debated translation topic.

The sheep were praised for their actions visiting prisoners, feeding the hungry, giving to the poor, etc. The goats were damned for not doing those things.

Exact same theme in Lazarus and the rich man. No sinner's prayer. No altar call. No mention of baptism or sacraments. No mention of church attendance. In fact, I would wager you the rich man went to synagogue than Lazarus did. No
mention of correct theology.

And if ECT hell exists, why did Jesus not preach he came to save us from it? There is no Scripture that says Christ came to save us from ECT hell.

Scripture says the wages of sin is death. Not ECT hell.

Where is ECT hell in the OT. Or in Judaism?

I get a little perturbed when people say I am not a Christian because I do not believe in ECT hell when there are saints and great theologians who did not believe in it either. And that is what you insinuated.

Sorry for the rant.

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You've thrown his name around a few times, but David Bentley Hart is not your friend and will lead you astray. He's been called out specifically by someone who declined to write a review of that book on a very prominent EO podcast. If an EO priest can quote St Gregory of Nysa and say hart is wrong, I'd caution you in reading them together as coherent.

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Do you read Jonathan Edwards? I would say the same about him.

And who called out Hart and praised St. Gregory of Nyssa? Was it because of theology or Hart's bombastic tone?

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Fr. Stephen de Young on the basis of his theology. It's not that he praised St. Gregory and condemned Hart, it's that he's well versed in orthodox theology and knows Hart doesn't mix with it. So if St. Gregory has something to say, it's likely different than Hart.

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I am not disputing DeYoung as I respect him. Will do some reading but St. Gregory was an ultimate reconciliation guy like Hart. So DeYoung might not think St. Gregory is compatible with traditional Orthodox teachings either.

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https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-lord-of-spirits/id1531206254?i=1000625635424

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3 hours and 20 minutes? I have started listening.

Make you a deal, if I listen to this read one of the books ai linked.

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I own the complete works of Jonathan Edward's. Where should I start?

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Wonder what the Orthodox think of him. Or Calvin. Sinners in the hands of an angry God and double predestination are not Orthodox theology as far as I know.

It always amazes me how disagreeing with the concept of ECT hell supposedly undermines the whole Gospel. Even if ECT hell is true it is such a small part of what Jesus taught.
And never mentioned by Paul. Never mentioned in Acts.
Seems strange to me given the gravity of the subject.

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First, Jesus talks about eternal punishment, and hell specifically. I would prioritize that over what Paul says.

Second, I'm not sure why you are so focused on Acts.

Philippians 3:1819: "For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things."

2 Thessalonians 1:89: "[He will come in] flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction"

Ephesians 5:56: "For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."

Paul makes quite clear that those who reject God will not inherit the Kingdom of God and will be eternally destroyed.

Again, I don't agree with annihilationism, but I can understand why some people subscribe to it because there are passages that talk about destruction and death as opposed to eternal punishment. Either way, whatever the consequence is for rejecting God, scripture (including both Jesus and Paul) makes abundantly clear that it is permanent, not a temporary corrective process that ends up at the same place as salvation through Christ.

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Every verse you mentioned talks of eternal destruction. And it is all salvation through Christ.

Scripture is much more affirmative on
Annihilationism and ultimate reconciliation than ECT hell.

And can I get a link where Paul mentioned ECT hell? Or any of the apostles in Acts?

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Scripture does not support ultimate reconciliation. You are twisting it to your own end of desiring ultimate reconciliation.

You seem not to be reading what I'm saying. I've already stated that I think annihilationism is a justifiable position even though I don't agree with it. Paul does talk more in terms of annihilationism. I'm not going to look up verses where the apostles talk about eternal torment in hell because Jesus himself talks about it, and that's infinitely superior.

My point is that, whether it's eternal torment or actual spiritual death, the apostles and Jesus all agree that the consequence for rejecting God is PERMAMENT. Ultimate reconciliation is not biblical. If you were relying on Jesus and the apostles for your position on what happens when somebody who has rejected God dies, I don't think you could possibly believe in ultimate reconciliation.

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Link to where eternal destination is permanent in Scripture. Do you believe Christ harrowed "Hell"? And sorry but it is possible I believe in ultimate reconciliation.

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All of the verses I've quoted to you in this thread, which is about 20, from both Jesus and Paul. Go back and read them. And there are many more. If you don't want to read them or believe them, I can't make you.

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Do you really think I have not read those? Like a thousand times.

We disagree and that's fine. Nobody is going to "hell"!(as much as you might want it) because of our "Hell" theology.

And seriously, why is ECT hell so important to you? Jesus talked very sparingly abut hell. Or heaven.