100% agree with this take. Conspiracy theorists are going to be disappointed after all of the files are released but I don't think it will change one single mind on the subject.

I just don't believe a plot that killed a sitting US President could be kept a secret for 60 years when hundreds of people would have been involved.

Agristotle said:

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with all due respect to Guitarsoup's incredible command of the subject, I don't think the Warren Commission was anything but a rush to close the matter and put a bow on it. They wanted to avoid escalation to war with the Soviets, give the public an official answer, hide some unsavory truths about JFK and sources and methods and move on with the LBJ presidency.

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I don't really think they had a rushed to close the matter. I think there were a lot of things they could have and should have done better, but they released a report that was nearly a thousand pages long with ridiculous amount of evidence and testimony.

The Church Committee and the House Select Committee on Assassinations have come and gone since then and neither of these have been able to find legitimate evidence that the Warren Commission just skipped or glossed over.

You have millions of pages of research (and conjecture) by people with all kinds of biases and varying levels of honesty and yet there still isn't evidence that the Warren Commission was wrong in their conclusions after over 60 years. And the House Select Committee basically existed to prove there was a conspiracy and they could not do so.

We have tons of unsavory truths about JFK (and the rest of the Kennedys) and LBJ easily available for public consumption, but I don't think that JFK banging everyone he could had anything to do with the assassination at all.

The biggest criticism of the WC has always been that they didn't hire their own investigators and relied on FBI and CIA for that, but at the same time, who do you think they would have been hiring? Retired FBI and CIA guys most likely. I think they probably should have done that, but they would just be criticized now for hiring old Bureau or Agency guys - but what other high level investigators are you going to pull from? NYPD? LAPD? Rangers? I don't see that changing the end result.

The great thing about the WC is we have so many testimonies under oath of witnesses memorialized within weeks/months of the assassination. And these were memorialized without these witnesses really knowing the actual evidence or what was known by the commission.

The Warren Commission was started at the end of November 63 by LBJ's executive order. They submitted their final report at the end of September 64.

Have you read Brad Meltzer's new book on the plot to kill JFK three years before Dallas?

I haven't but his book on the plot to kill FDR is excellent.

If only FDR would have been aborted or killed before he took the Presidency. One of the ****ing worst. Only Wilson surpasses him.

Agristotle said:

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Have you read Brad Meltzer's new book on the plot to kill JFK three years before Dallas?

I haven't but his book on the plot to kill FDR is excellent.

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I haven't. It is on the list, but I'm in grad school right now and can't read for pleasure as much. Not surprisingly, I am not a very fast reader.

I know basics of the story that he is telling, and it is about Pavlick. So it is kind of weird to call it a conspiracy, because Pavlick was a retired postal worker that was going to blow up JFK and himself and had the opportunity, but didn't light the fuse of the dynamite because JFK had Jackie and the kids with him and he didn't want to hurt them. Pavlick was committed to a mental institution and the Secret Service had been looking for him prior to that. Why were they looking for him? He wrote them letters telling them he was going to be a suicide bomber to kill Kennedy.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-kennedy-assassin-who-failed-153519612/

I do think a ton of people had understandable motives to kill JFK, especially Casto, Cubans, the Mob, etc. But good motives and actually doing something that big that would is a very different thing.

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There has been not a single shred of evidence ever released that would lead anyone to believe that the CIA was involved in any way, other than knowing that Oswald could have been dangerous and not following up or sharing the evidence.

I don't think the CIA shared everything, but there is also no evidence that they held back anything substantive about the actual assassination or any knowledge or conspiracies regarding it. Also, the House Select Committee on Assassinations also dove deep into it, and they also found no conspiracies and no evidence linking Oswald to the CIA, no evidence of Oswald conspiring with anyone, no evidence of anyone else taking a shot from anywhere.

And in the six decades since the assassination, not a single person has come forward with any evidence that there was a conspiracy. We have had so many classified document leaks. Deep Throat, Snowdon, Manning, Ames, Hanssen, all the KGB spies, etc and none have ever released anything substantive.

If you were the KGB and you got your hands on evidence that the CIA or LBJ offed JFK, isnt that the most insanely valuable evidence that a US coup actually and they pinned it on a patsy? That's worth more than nuclear locations. But nothing.

Or if you worked for basic government salary and pension all your life and loved JFK and knew he was murdered by your colleagues... you can take the information public and create generational wealth for you, rather than live off your pension and social security after making meh money for your career. Yet no one did that.

Any CIA type of conspiracy just doesn't pass the logic test.

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Your knowledge, down to the details, about this matter has always impressed me and has also been persuasive. What you relate you do so based on known facts and detailed research.

Like many things, especially pre-internet and easy communications, it was much easier for the government to keep secrets and mold the truths that "they"(whoever it might have been at the time) wanted disseminated.
I believe you are accurate in what you state above in bold, but if that is the case there will always remain lingering doubts in the general public.

My opinion is that given the governments penchant for some outright lying and common hiding of the truth there will always be a veil of distrust on this matter. The government does, especially prior to the information and fragmented media age, deceive and hide the truths. For instance, the CIA, and likely other individuals and possibly agencies, were active participants, both tacit and overt, in the trafficking of drugs to fund to Contra's and to this day this remains something that still relatively covered up and not one person involved has ever faced justice. And there are other matters that have also been "washed" and the water around them muddied.

Thus, I do think it is possible that if there was some type of orchestration or conspiracy, given the times, that it would have been able to be very thoroughly squelched. Disinformation and obfuscation are honed skills of the CIA, especially the CIA of the 50's and 60's. I am not saying that is the case in the JFK killing by any means, as you say there is really no clear proof, but I do think the intelligence agencies and government mechanism of those years had the means and methods to deeply hide and bury activities.

RGV AG said:

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There has been not a single shred of evidence ever released that would lead anyone to believe that the CIA was involved in any way, other than knowing that Oswald could have been dangerous and not following up or sharing the evidence.

I don't think the CIA shared everything, but there is also no evidence that they held back anything substantive about the actual assassination or any knowledge or conspiracies regarding it. Also, the House Select Committee on Assassinations also dove deep into it, and they also found no conspiracies and no evidence linking Oswald to the CIA, no evidence of Oswald conspiring with anyone, no evidence of anyone else taking a shot from anywhere.

And in the six decades since the assassination, not a single person has come forward with any evidence that there was a conspiracy. We have had so many classified document leaks. Deep Throat, Snowdon, Manning, Ames, Hanssen, all the KGB spies, etc and none have ever released anything substantive.

If you were the KGB and you got your hands on evidence that the CIA or LBJ offed JFK, isnt that the most insanely valuable evidence that a US coup actually and they pinned it on a patsy? That's worth more than nuclear locations. But nothing.

Or if you worked for basic government salary and pension all your life and loved JFK and knew he was murdered by your colleagues... you can take the information public and create generational wealth for you, rather than live off your pension and social security after making meh money for your career. Yet no one did that.

Any CIA type of conspiracy just doesn't pass the logic test.

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Your knowledge, down to the details, about this matter has always impressed me and has also been persuasive. What you relate you do so based on known facts and detailed research.

Like many things, especially pre-internet and easy communications, it was much easier for the government to keep secrets and mold the truths that "they"(whoever it might have been at the time) wanted disseminated.
I believe you are accurate in what you state above in bold, but if that is the case there will always remain lingering doubts in the general public.

My opinion is that given the governments penchant for some outright lying and common hiding of the truth there will always be a veil of distrust on this matter. The government does, especially prior to the information and fragmented media age, deceive and hide the truths. For instance, the CIA, and likely other individuals and possibly agencies, were active participants, both tacit and overt, in the trafficking of drugs to fund to Contra's and to this day this remains something that still relatively covered up and not one person involved has ever faced justice. And there are other matters that have also been "washed" and the water around them muddied.

Thus, I do think it is possible that if there was some type of orchestration or conspiracy, given the times, that it would have been able to be very thoroughly squelched. Disinformation and obfuscation are honed skills of the CIA, especially the CIA of the 50's and 60's. I am not saying that is the case in the JFK killing by any means, as you say there is really no clear proof, but I do think the intelligence agencies and government mechanism of those years had the means and methods to deeply hide and bury activities.

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Thanks for the nice compliments.

I don't think they had as great an ability to hide as you do. We know about the contras, MK Ultra, Condor, Mockingbird, Bay of Pigs, Family Jewels, using Mafia to assassinate Castros because things just weren't kept secret. We can talk about these murky things because they all are public knowledge.

Using the agency to stage a coup on a sitting POTUS is a completely next level thing than some of these other things that they did. Killing a leader of a 3rd world ****hole and the POTUS are two entirely different things and one problem you might run into is that a lot of people that worked in the CIA were probably patriotic people. They may not care about killing an enemy of the state, but the leader of the state? No one involved has any qualms with that? That is hard for me to believe.

Think how many rats there were in the Mafia. Sammy The Bull, Mickey Scars, Henry Hill, Whitey Bulger, etc. Guys that took a blood oath to never rat or they would die... all ratted.

CIA agents don't take that oath. I just don't buy that everyone that would need to be involved hated JFK so much or never cared about profitting off their knowledge that they all took it to their graves.

There have always been leaks. There have been tons of CIA spies arrested, and tons of KGB infiltrators.

But all we have on a possible JFK-CIA conspiracy is fan theories. No evidence. No one involved coming forward. No connections. Nothing. Just "The CIA did lots of dark and underworld stuff, so they could have done this, too." I just don't think that holds up. I don't think that they could have kept a big conspiracy like that a secret.


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There is also the big problem of the planning of the event. Connally didn't want to do the parade. It was JFK himself that ordered it because he didn't want to waste a trip to Texas without using it to campaign. It was Ken ODonnell that picked the parade route and the Secret Service didn't even confirm it until a couple days before. If you watched 13 Days, Ken ODonnell was the character played by Kevin Costner. He was in the car behind JFK in Dallas. Ken was a WWII hero, was RFK's roommate at Harvard, and stayed loyal to the Kennedys until his death.

Considering the parade wasn't planned until the week of the assassination, there was certainly nearly no time for a massive conspiracy.

Further compounding it is how LHO got his job at the Texas SBD. He got it was before the trip was planned.

Frazier lost his job in Huntsville and had to move in with his sister. He landed the sweet job moving books at the TSBD.
His sister happens to be friends with the lady that Oswald's wife lived with. They wanted Oswald to get a job to help better provide for the pregnant Marina, so they set him up with an interview.
Roy Truly, Oswald's manager, offered him the job, because he felt sorry for the Marine.
Oswald didn't want the job, he wanted a different job, but the other job (film developing) called his previous employers for references and didn't offer. So Oswald took the Texas School Book Depository job.

That's a whole lot of weird little things that needed to fall into place for Oswald to stumble into the perfect sniper's nest. Because of all the people involved, and why they chose to do what they did... I just can't see this set up being a CIA conspiracy. Lee had the job six weeks before the parade was planned. So Ken ODonnell, who drank himself to death at age 53 over the deaths of JFK and RFK would have to be in on this massive CIA conspiracy to move it in front of the patsy's sniper's nest.

I just can't make the leap to believe the CIA orchestrated all that. They worked with the little neighborhood ladies to get Lee the job. Did they get Frazier fired from his job in Huntsville? And they pulled the strings without any of these civilians knowing they were doing the CIA's bidding? And no one involved ever talked?

Posted on Kennedy killing several years ago. In late 60's my term paper in History 315 was titled "A Look at the Kennedy Assassination". My best paper in school, by far. Received an A on the paper in a difficult but fair class.
The findings of the Warren Report were out and I used it as a primary source.
My intent was to support the finding of the Warren Commission that Oswald was the sole assassin. Their findings consisted of asking the questions of the witnesses and recording (in writing) their answers. Then at the end of each session they would offer a conclusion from the testimonies. All written down in The Warren Report. After many weeks of study of the report, and other information, I reached the conclusion completely different from my initial intent.
We're talking about something that happened over sixty years ago and my conclusion has always been the same. Was there one or more killers? I do not know. However, I do know the crackdown on organized crime did not sit well with those people. The Russians and the Cubans were not happy either after the C.I.A. attempted invasion of Cuba. There were unhappy people, in and out of governments, that would like to see the President out of office.
Anyway, I've long forgotten my many sources, but since that research, I've had serious doubts.
Somewhere along the way of one of our moves, the paper was lost.

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Was there one or more killers? I do not know.

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There is no physical evidence that anyone fired any shots other than Lee Harvey Oswald. There is no physical evidence that any shots were fired from any location other than the 6th Floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

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However, I do know the crackdown on organized crime did not sit well with those people. The Russians and the Cubans were not happy either after the C.I.A. attempted invasion of Cuba. There were unhappy people, in and out of governments, that would like to see the President out of office.

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Absolutely no question that lots of people had motives to dislike, hate, or even kill Kennedy. But having the motive and actually pulling off a killing in a day or two is a completely different thing. Not a single person that did not belong in the Texas SchoolBook Depository was ever seen inside of it. The route was only finalized in the days before the parade. The Dallas Morning News published the map the day of the parade. The Dallas Times Herald published it the day before.

The Russians, Cubans, and Italians could all hate the hell out of JFK, but did they have the ability to conspire to get LHO to work for them in just hours after it became publicly known where and when JFK would be in Dallas? That is a massively tall order. How would any of them even know that LHO was hired to move boxes of books around that warehouse for $1.90/hr a couple months before the parade was even planned? Did any of them even know how to get in touch with him? It's not like Castro or Marcello could just send him a text on the 21st and work out the details.

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Anyway, I've long forgotten my many sources, but since that research, I've had serious doubts.
Somewhere along the way of one of our moves, the paper was lost.

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Sorry you lost your paper! I would have loved to read that.

Castro slid into his DM's…obviously!

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There is no physical evidence that anyone fired any shots other than Lee Harvey Oswald. There is no physical evidence that any shots were fired from any location other than the 6th Floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

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This is just patently false.

You have the windshield that numerous people, including a St. Louis Post reporter, saw a hole through and cracks were visible in. None of the 3 alleged Oswald shots could account for that.

https://jameshfetzer.org/2015/09/jfk-conspiracy-the-bullet-hole-in-the-windshield/

There are also YT videos showing this.

You have the Parkland doctors describing the neck wound as one of entry. You also have McClelland talking about how JFK's cerebellum fell out when he was on the table. That wouldn't have occurred under the WC's 3 Oswald shot allegations.



Finally, you have the SS Agent who actually found CE399 and wasn't called before the WC. Why? Because he found the damn thing in the limo, not on the stretcher as has been widely reported for 60+ years. Instead of being the "magic bullet," it was the one that hit JFK in the back. With just this, the single shooter theory is destroyed.

https://www.amazon.com/Final-Witness-Kennedy-Service-Silence/dp/1641609443

In fact, there's no actual physical evidence implicating Oswald. No one SAW him on the 6th floor; no one SAW him fire the rifle; we know for a fact that Oswald was finger/possibly palm/printed in the morgue. WHY??



There's tons of evidence out there. You've chosen to ignore it.

91AggieLawyer said:

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There is no physical evidence that anyone fired any shots other than Lee Harvey Oswald. There is no physical evidence that any shots were fired from any location other than the 6th Floor of the Texas School Book Depository.

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This is just patently false.

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It is not, but feel free to rant without actual evidence, my friend.

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You have the windshield that numerous people, including a St. Louis Post reporter, saw a hole through and cracks were visible in. None of the 3 alleged Oswald shots could account for that.

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Ok, show actual evidence of it.

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https://jameshfetzer.org/2015/09/jfk-conspiracy-the-bullet-hole-in-the-windshield/

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[url=https://jameshfetzer.org/2015/09/jfk-conspiracy-the-bullet-hole-in-the-windshield/][/url]James Fetzer is an insane conspiracy theorist that is a holocaust denier that believes Israel was behind 9/11. The website you linked to has no photos or evidence to back up your claims. This is your source? Really?


Fetzer was sued and lost for his statements that Sandy Hook never happened. Here is the case: https://law.justia.com/cases/wisconsin/court-of-appeals/2024/2023ap001002.html

This is the guy you are hanging your hat on?

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There are also YT videos showing this.

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Post evidence. Not insane pieces of **** like Fetzer that have ranting and ravings but not a single shred of evidence.

The actual windshield was brought in to the Warren Commission and the members were able to examine it in addition to the testimony of the FBI expert who examined it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did any of that area examined disclose any impact of such a missile?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not of a high velocity. Only the lead area smeared on the inside of the windshield from a relatively light object which struck the inside, and did not even break the inside surface of the glass, and then there was a possible bullet impact area at the top of the chrome to the right of the rearview mirror. This was made by a projectile not having the weight or velocity of a whole bullet moving at. in the range of a thousand to 1,500 feet per second or more.

The windshield can still be examined and has been preserved in the National Archives.

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You have the Parkland doctors describing the neck wound as one of entry. You also have McClelland talking about how JFK's cerebellum fell out when he was on the table. That wouldn't have occurred under the WC's 3 Oswald shot allegations.

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JFK wasn't even there long, and they did not do a pathological examination. McClelland took notes at the time of it, and specifically wrote that they did not examine the wounds for entrance or exit, and they knew immediately that they were not survivable. He also wrote at the time that he believed there was a head wound in the forehead that he never saw. We know that is not true and have photographs of Kennedy readily available with no gunshot wound to the forehead. He also wrote that he did not examine the back of Kennedy, and assumed there was an exit.

Dr. Charles S. Carrico, who was also in that room testified:

Q. Based on your observations on the neck wound alone did have a sufficient basis to form an opinion as to whether it was entrance or an exit wound?

A. No, sir; we did not. Not having completely evaluated all the wounds, traced out the course of the bullets, this wound would have been compatible with either entrance or exit wound depending upon the size, the velocity, the tissue structure and so forth.

Dr. Malcolm Perry:

Q. Based on the appearance of the neck wound alone, could it have been either an entrance or an exit wound?

A. It could have been either.

A full jacketed bullet without deformation passing through skin would leave a similar wound for an exit and entrance wound and with the facts which yon have made available and with these assumptions, I believe that it was an exit wound

It should be noted that it was Dr. Perry, not McClelland, Goldstrich, Carrico or McClelland that performed the trach, so he would have known it the best out of all of them.

Dr. Joe Goldstrich:
When I looked down, when the president came in, and there was an initial assessment, and I looked down and I saw this hole in his throat, a little tiny one maybe the size of dime… a small hole. I didn't know anything about ballistics at the time, so I didn't have any idea whether it was an entrance or an exit wound. And frankly, that didn't even come into my mind whether it was an entrance or an exit wound.


So you have four doctors there. One says it is an entry wound. Three say it could have been entry or exit and that they did not examine it pathologically. Those are the facts.

Beyond the fact that these doctors did no pathological examination, there is no way to line up a shot with the throat from another angle other than it being an exit wound from LHO's shot from the TSBD. For the throat to be an entrance and the back to be an exit, the shot would have had to come from John Connally's back. If the throat shot came from the Grassy Knoll, which was like at 2 oclock and high, the bullet would have been travelling from JFK's front right to back left. But the wound on his back was just to the right of his spine. So a frontal shot definitively could not have from from front right, enter the center of his throat, and then change directions without hitting anything but soft tissue and exiting from his back left. Line it up, that theory has no actual basis in what is physically possible.

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Finally, you have the SS Agent who actually found CE399 and wasn't called before the WC. Why? Because he found the damn thing in the limo, not on the stretcher as has been widely reported for 60+ years. Instead of being the "magic bullet," it was the one that hit JFK in the back. With just this, the single shooter theory is destroyed.

https://www.amazon.com/Final-Witness-Kennedy-Service-Silence/dp/1641609443

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[url=https://www.amazon.com/Final-Witness-Kennedy-Service-Silence/dp/1641609443][/url]
Except it is not destroyed, because the exact shot has been replicated multiple times.

Like here:

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In fact, there's no actual physical evidence implicating Oswald.

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This is patently false. Could not be any more false. His gun shot Kennedy. His prints were on the gun. The gun was found in the sniper's nest. LHO took pictures of himself with the gun. He was the last person seen on the 6th floor by anyone before the shooting.

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No one SAW him on the 6th floor;

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Daniel Garcia Arce saw him in the 6th floor shortly before the motorcade.
Charles Givens forgot his cigs on the 6th floor and went back up to get them, and saw Oswald there. His testimony starts around page 350 of the Warren Commission Report.

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no one SAW him fire the rifle;

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Pulitzer Prize winner Bob Jackson was in one of the follow cars and saw the rifle in the window. Bob is best known for taking the photo of Lee Harvey Oswald being shot a couple days after this.
Howard Brennan saw the rifle in the window. He said he was in his 30s and slender.
Amos Eunis saw the rifle in the window.

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we know for a fact that Oswald was finger/possibly palm/printed in the morgue. WHY??

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So agents came, but he can't say who they were, who they were with or any details about it? Is there any corroboration for his story? People with suits and bags showed up and just forced themselves in, forced him to leave, and he never knew who they were, who they worked for, what they looked like?

What exactly does his story prove? We have Oswald's fingerprint cards from DPD from after he shot JD Tippett and was arrested in the theater. The Sniper's next was being fingerprinted before LHO was even arrested.

Why indeed.

Here is the UPI story about LHO's body going to the funeral home and how they assigned 8 cops and 2 dogs to guard it.

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There's tons of evidence out there. You've chosen to ignore it.

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Some old guy telling vague stories about a post mortem fingerprinting of a guy that had already been fingerprinted multiple times isn't exactly evidence. But you are also citing the website of a guy that says the Holocaust never happened and Israel is responsible for 9/11. He also says Sandy Hook wasn't real.

Sorry, buddy, I'm way more confident in my sources than your bull*****

Wow! A line by line breakdown absolutely crushing the previous post. That ass-whipping was so thorough I almost felt sorry for the guy. Almost.

Yet again you boil things down to hard, known, and verifiable acts. Question for you, do you think all the supposition that existed after the assassination and then throughout the following 3 decades could have been addressed in a more open and conclusive manner than it was? If indeed LHO acted alone and there was no conspiracy, just as you lay out a very strong case, could those in government not have done so clearly, and more important, and openly to quash all the speculation?

As I have mentioned previously, I always have questioned LHO and his stint, and travel to, CDMX as it strikes me as totally odd. It is possible that, I suppose and tell myself, that the CIA and FBI participated in the cloudiness around all of this due to them discounting LHO as a bumbling fool when there were so many signs, and detailed and noted actions, of him being an obvious "commie" and anti-American actor, be he a dolt or not.

I have also always discounted the Cuban/Russian angle as the single biggest thing that gave Castro legitimacy and rallied internal support for him was the failed Bay of Pigs deal. To risk discovery of having anything, even close, to do with the killing of an American president would have likely started WWIII to which at the time the USSR knew was a no win situation for them. Direct "hot" confrontation was not the strategy of the communists at the time.

Given all the events, the actors, and those surrounding the occurrence I will always retain a bigger than tiny shred of doubt that there could have been some kind of plot. Could LHO been one of many or a few "lone wolf's" that via the CIA were "wound up" in the case of there needing to be something done at some point? Ruby could possibly have been another?

There are just so many things surrounding, and ancillary to, the JFK assassination that on a personal level I just can't help but believe that there was some intentional "muddying of the waters" done. To what extent? I just don't know.

The whole person of De Mohrenschildt, and even Ruby, as well as several other characters is just head scratching to me and when combined with the trip to Mexico and other LHO activities the head scratching is compounded.

Think about this, look at De Mohrenschildt's background and his circle of friends and such; how and why in the world would he have anything to do with LHO? And then De Mohrenschildt heads off Haiti, poor ass, despotic fiefdom that it was, but a fiefdom where several Texas businessmen, up through the early 80's, had very profitable investments. Some of these businessmen had established CIA ties and direct ties to LBJ.

All of this stuff is so convoluted that it appears it could not have been orchestrated without a huge effort. Or was it so well orchestrated that it actually worked out? The coincidences and characters and events on the periphery are just hard to fathom.

Again, thank you for the detailed, and supported, information and I am not arguing anything just conveying personal curiosities and doubts.

RGV AG said:

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Yet again you boil things down to hard, known, and verifiable acts. Question for you, do you think all the supposition that existed after the assassination and then throughout the following 3 decades could have been addressed in a more open and conclusive manner than it was?

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First of all, really really great post.

I absolutely believe the there was information suppressed from the general public and the Warren Commission. But a lot of that suppressed information has come out over the years. I think most of it was more the CIA doing CYA than suppressing anything that had to do with a conspiracy. I think that a conspiracy would have to be WAY too wide ranging for it to have actually worked, and it would have had to have happened in WAY too little time. Remember, the head guy in Secret Service in charge of the Texas protection wasn't even getting/approving the parade route until Nov 18th and it was first published on the 21st, which is why on the 21st, LHO asked Frazier to bring him to Marina's "to get curtain rods."

Because my belief is that most of the suppressed information was CYA stuff, I don't believe that it would have had any bearing on public opinion. I think it had more to do with the CIA being aware of Oswald, the CIA into really doing anything about him or investigating him as close as they should, the CIA spying on Mexico, Cuba, and Russia, and not passing information on to the FBI. I'll go into it later in addressing your other questions, but De Mohrenschildt had asked LHO if he shot at General Walker and LHO just made a sly smile. GDM said that he reported that to his contacts at the CIA. This was in April 63. Did they ever really investigate it or pass it to the FBI? Because if they had, they could have ended the threat before summer.

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If indeed LHO acted alone and there was no conspiracy, just as you lay out a very strong case, could those in government not have done so clearly, and more important, and openly to quash all the speculation?

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I think that there was always going to be speculation. No one wants to believe that the most powerful man in the world can be killed by a lone nut. But we saw with Squeaky Fromme on Ford, John Hinckley on Reagan, Garfield, McKinnley, Lincoln, etc that it does happen (or come close to happening.)

In addition, the KGB had an active disinformation campaign that was stoking the fire of conspiracy. They were afraid that because Oswald was a Soviet defector, that blame would fall on them. The Soviets knew JFK was a very charismatic and popular president (even if he wasn't that good of a president.) They also knew LBJ was a scoundrel and not as popular. They believed that if they got the American public to believe that the US Military, Intelligence, or LBJ killed Kennedy, there would be a massive upheaval in the US for the successful coup. I forgot the book where an ex-KGB agent that defected shared this in, but it was not specifically about the JFK assassination, but he talks about why the KGB worked on this disinformation. I'll see if I can find it. But the Paesa Sera was the Italian newspaper that the KGB first planted the story about a CIA conspiracy. That article was republished all over the world, eventually in a communist paper in NYC National Guardian (funded by the KGB) that got Jim Garrison interested. After Garrison arrested Clay Shaw, the Paesa Sera started running stories about how Shaw was the CIA operative that ran the operation that killed Kennedy. The KGB got exactly what they wanted.

No one wants to believe that a loser asshat like Oswald or Hinckley or that incel in Butler, PA could get shots off on the President. And the KGB expertly fed into that feeling with their worldwide disinformation campaign.

I don't really know what the government could have done better to fight against the KGB disinformation. But the overwhelming belief BEFORE the KGB planted these stories was that LHO did it. But this is probably the most successful disinformation campaign in the history of the world.

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As I have mentioned previously, I always have questioned LHO and his stint, and travel to, CDMX as it strikes me as totally odd. It is possible that, I suppose and tell myself, that the CIA and FBI participated in the cloudiness around all of this due to them discounting LHO as a bumbling fool when there were so many signs, and detailed and noted actions, of him being an obvious "commie" and anti-American actor, be he a dolt or not.

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Yeah, and I think you know way more than I do about that. It is absolutely odd. Everything about it is. And I think that most of what we don't know concerns that trip. I think some of that is because the CIA had been told by GDM that Oswald took the shots on Walker, then was in the Russian/Cuban embassies in CDMX and they still did little to nothing about him. How was the information handled about both these events? This is what I am most interested in finding out about.

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I have also always discounted the Cuban/Russian angle as the single biggest thing that gave Castro legitimacy and rallied internal support for him was the failed Bay of Pigs deal. To risk discovery of having anything, even close, to do with the killing of an American president would have likely started WWIII to which at the time the USSR knew was a no win situation for them. Direct "hot" confrontation was not the strategy of the communists at the time.

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Yeah, 100%. Also, there is the theory that JFK didn't want to escalate in Vietnam... so why would Russia want to kill him and bring in warhawk LBJ? There are theories that the American military machine wanted JFK dead so they could have their war in Vietnam, too.

Plus the fact that they didn't know where the motorcade was going to be until like the day before. LHO found out likely by reading the paper at work (he was known to do that) and then changed his plans and got Frazier to take him home to get his rifle. But on that little amount of time, how would the KGB or Cubans activate the ultimate sleeper cell?

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Given all the events, the actors, and those surrounding the occurrence I will always retain a bigger than tiny shred of doubt that there could have been some kind of plot. Could LHO been one of many or a few "lone wolf's" that via the CIA were "wound up" in the case of there needing to be something done at some point? Ruby could possibly have been another?

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I think Ruby thought there would be parades celebrating him for killing Oswald. When Oswald was supposed to be transported, Ruby was at Western Union. Oswald himself objected to the perp walk because he only had a undershirt and he demanded a proper shirt or sweater, which ended up being that sweater he was killed in. Oswald himself is the one that delayed his own transportation and if he did the perp walk in his undershirt, Ruby wouldn't have been there to shoot him.

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There are just so many things surrounding, and ancillary to, the JFK assassination that on a personal level I just can't help but believe that there was some intentional "muddying of the waters" done. To what extent? I just don't know.

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I agree. So many weird things about the case, which is why it is so interesting to keep coming back to.

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The whole person of De Mohrenschildt, and even Ruby, as well as several other characters is just head scratching to me and when combined with the trip to Mexico and other LHO activities the head scratching is compounded.

Think about this, look at De Mohrenschildt's background and his circle of friends and such; how and why in the world would he have anything to do with LHO? And then De Mohrenschildt heads off Haiti, poor ass, despotic fiefdom that it was, but a fiefdom where several Texas businessmen, up through the early 80's, had very profitable investments. Some of these businessmen had established CIA ties and direct ties to LBJ.

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GDM is a really interesting character. He did have contacts in the CIA/FBI (as well as the KGB), and apparently did talk to feds about LHO when he met him through the local Russian groups. When he thought LHO shot at Walker, he let his CIA friends know. They obviously did nothing with the information. GDM was educated, successful, connected, and 28 years older than Lee. The only reasons I can see him enduring Lee's bull**** was that people in the CIA/FBI/KGB told him to keep an eye out on Lee and report back as well as he probably felt sorry for Marina being stuck in America with the loser husband, no money and the kid.

But GDM moves to Haiti in June 63 and doesn't seem to deal with Lee anymore. Not all summer, not after Lee went to CDMX. Not when the parade was planned. I just think GDM was more of a businessman in it for himself and if feeding info to the KGB, CIA, or whoever would help him personally, he was happy to do it. I hope the released documents have more information on him.

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All of this stuff is so convoluted that it appears it could not have been orchestrated without a huge effort. Or was it so well orchestrated that it actually worked out? The coincidences and characters and events on the periphery are just hard to fathom.

Again, thank you for the detailed, and supported, information and I am not arguing anything just conveying personal curiosities and doubts.

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I'm with you. It is convoluted. But I keep coming back to how Lee got the job (and it wasn't the job he wanted( and how it was Ken ODonnell that planned the parade and it really wasn't finished up or known until the last minute. Those things make a conspiracy insanely difficult imo.

Then you also have the difficulties of dealing someone like Lee. He was known by all parties to be a complete nutter. He had mental health issues dating back to HS (and before) and had attempted suicide in Russia. He shot himself in the Marines. He was not reliable in the least, plus he just wasn't that smart (but sure thought he was.) He flew off the handle easily (assaulting his superior in the Marines, getting fired from jobs, etc.) Then he had no plan after the assassination. Left his gun, went home, shot Tippett and then was caught because he was seen sneaking into a movie instead of just paying for a ticket. Just idiotic and weird.

I've enjoyed all your posts and it was near hearing your experiences in Mexico City. More stuff about our spying there is going to be very very interesting and I think that will be a lot of what we learn in the coming months.

I just want to chime in to get your thoughts on the theory proposed in the book Mortal Error.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Error

I have not read the book but did read a recent Steve Berry novel "The 9th Man" which uses the same concept that is supposedly outlined in Mortal Error that the fata shot came from a USSS agent in the follow car.

I think its overall been debunked but it was a theory I never had heard before.

Any thoughts?

Just popped into this thread for the first time. looks like it's been almost a month since the EO.

So what was in the released docs (he asked eagerly)?

flown-the-coop said:

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I just want to chime in to get your thoughts on the theory proposed in the book Mortal Error.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortal_Error

I have not read the book but did read a recent Steve Berry novel "The 9th Man" which uses the same concept that is supposedly outlined in Mortal Error that the fata shot came from a USSS agent in the follow car.

I think its overall been debunked but it was a theory I never had heard before.

Any thoughts?

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Yeah, thanks for asking. It is the single dumbest conspiracy theory that ever existed and it has no factual basis.

First of all think about the angle someone in the chase car would have to be at to shoot over the windshield of his own car (because we know it was not shot) and shoot down enough to hit Kennedy in the head, just above the trunk level. Remember that the cars are going downhill. To make that angle, he would practically have to be standing on the trunk to get the AR up over the windshield, but then still shoot down hill to a much lower target. The theory fails right there.



Secondly, think about who was in the car with George Hickey. You have the middle two seats occupied by Ken ODonnell and David Powers, two guys that were completely loyal to JFK their entire lives. Every one of the ten people in that car were special agents, war heroes, etc. All had extensive experience with guns.

Why would Ken ODonnell and David Powers spend the rest of their lives lying for George Hickey?



Third, you have the problem that there were TONS of people around including people that the motorcade had not passed yet. They would have had both the President's car and the follow car in their view, and not one of them saw a gun go off in the follow car. (not even counting for the fact that the angle would require him to basically stand on the trunk to clear the windshield and shoot downhill for the target several feet lower than the windshield.) No one saw anything remotely close to that.

Finally, no one in that car reacted at all to Hickey firing a gun. He's holding it. No one reacted to a AR 15 going off right next to their unprotected ears? The 7 other SS agents in the car don't have the gun go off next to their head, then watch JFK's head explode and don't remove the gun from the person that fired the gun next to the head? None of that makes sense. It does not make sense that you have 9 people in the car with Hickey and no one at all reacts like he fired a weapon that kills their protection subject right in front of their face and they don't react. They aren't even looking at him as they leave Dealy Plaza.



Hickey sued the publisher of the book for defamation when they released the paperback and they immediately paid him off, because they knew it was absolute bull**** and they likely just wanted to make some cash off all the conspiracy theories that abound.

Appreciate you humoring me and saving me the trouble of reading the book.

My brother-in-law was obsessed with JFK assassination and did a bunch of his own research that wound up getting him a knock from the FBI (supposedly).

He passed a couple years ago and I have been trying to get his files from his widow. I highly doubt he found anything that has not been combed through by a thousand others, but it was always an interesting topic.

He and I rarely discussed because he believed in conspiracies and I do not (still don't).

You depth of knowledge is impressive and thanks for sharing with us.

I just wish I started saving stuff sooner. I have a folder with lots of stuff and have saved Youtube videos with varying viewpoints. Those photos are all from my Mortal Error folder.

If you want a book that goes through all the various conspiracies I recommend Reclaiming History.

His conclusion was also that there was no conspiracy and it was Oswald alone, but he addresses tons of the conspiracy theories that are prevalent in society.

The author was Vincent Bugliosi, who is best known for being the prosecutor that locked away Charles Manson and his people. He did a televised mock trial of Oswald as prosecutor and got a guilty verdict in it. This book is from the research he did for the mock trial.

Interestingly, he thought RFK died as the result of a conspiracy.

Joe Rogan having his CIA buddy on. Cia buddy seems to think pretty much the same as me that the JFK files aren't going to have a smoking gun or anything substantial. He thinks it will be more about the CIA and FBI not working well together both of them knowing that Oswald was someone to track and investigate and them just not doing it.

He also thinks that an MLK conspiracy is much more likely and goes into some details about that.

Joe is all about the full-on conspiracy

Guitarsoup said:

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Joe Rogan having his CIA buddy on. Cia buddy seems to think pretty much the same as me that the JFK files aren't going to have a smoking gun or anything substantial. He thinks it will be more about the CIA and FBI not working well together both of them knowing that Oswald was someone to track and investigate and them just not doing it.

He also thinks that an MLK conspiracy is much more likely and goes into some details about that.

Joe is all about the full-on conspiracy

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I certainly don't believe there will be a "smoking gun"……if there were anyone involved other than Oswald no one wrote that down on paper at any time, and anything possibly related to that has been deep sixed long ago! (Many files have certainly been destroyed…including the Secret Service files on the assassination.). Now, what some well known researchers have alluded to is the real possibility that Oswald was more than just a "lone nut" (Jefferson Morley for example)….could Oswald have been an "informant" or some low level attachment to the CIA?? After all, we do know that the Anti-Castro Cubans in New Orleans (Carlos Bringuer) were a CIA backed and controlled organization. . Oswald tried to join them the day before he started his one man Fair Play for Cuba Committee the next day. (And of course he gets into an altercation with them on the street)..David Atlee Phillips helped finance DRE, and George Joannides from Miami was in charge of the New Orleans group. Morley and others are hoping for the release of the Joannides files which could fill in some missing pieces. It's interesting that the CiA liaison to the HSCA was none other than Joannides. It's obvious he was stonewalling the investigation, just like the CIA did to the Warren Commission. Robert Blakey was pissed when he found out that Joannides was actually CIA and feeding them false information…
.To me, Oswald can't keep a job (had $203 dollars in his account when he defected to Russia, staying in plush hotels in Helsinki that only the elite can afford)…where does he get the money to travel to New Orleans, pay for the FPCC leaflets, go to Mexico City, etc….and why are his tax records which might shed some light on his finances never been released? Where does he get the money for the Minolta spy camera they found in his possessions in Mrs Paine's garage?? I've always said Oswald was involved in the Assassination..zero doubt about that…and zero doubt he fired from the depository… zero doubt the FBI and especially the CIA had major information on him they don't want released. Hopefully, the puzzle pieces start to come together with the new "commission" and the release of the files. I hope to find out more about Joannides and David Attlee Phillips, who just happened to be in Mexico City when Oswald was there. Holding out for the truth but not expecting any type of bombshell!!

https://jfkfacts.org/secret-jfk-document-3-dreamspell-file/

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Where does he get the money for the Minolta spy camera they found in his possessions in Mrs Paine's garage?? I

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Hey Big Hunter, hope you are well.

I'm not going to bother going through everything, but with my interest and knowledge in photography, I can easily address this.

There wasn't some fancy minolta spy camera in his possessions. Just a very basic 35mm camera.





This camera was a very cheap 35mm camera with a fixed lens. You could not change lenses, you only got the 40mm f/4.5 lens on it, which is not something special at all. It was made to be cheap and accessible to the general public and had nothing special about it at all.

Lee worked at a graphic design/photography place (JCS) for 6mo in 62/63 and he did actual photography for them in addition to darkroom work. When he got the Texas School Book Depository job, he didn't want to take it because he also applied at another photography place. But that other photography place called JCS for a reference.. and well they said he was a big nutball and not to bother.


There are lots of people that think lots of things. Morley that you brought up does believe in a conspiracy. Which one? You will never pin him down on it, so he talks about ALL the possibilities. And beyond that, he admitted on the International Spy Museum Podcast that there is not any actual evidence to show there was a conspiracy, but he believes in one all the same.

If you don't listen to the International Spy Museum podcast, you should, btw. It is very good. They have had Will Hurd '99 on it a couple times.

It is just wild to me that a person can completely believe that there was a conspiracy, but at the same time, admit there isn't evidence of a conspiracy and completely refuse to nail down WHAT conspiracy you believe in.

I meant to say Minox Camera as opposed to Minolta (sorry)…and there is controversy over whether Oswald, The Paines, or both had such a camera. I have read where the Minox was expensive (if it was actually possessed by Oswald and even the HSCA dealt with that controversy…but I digress and will trust your knowledge on the subject.)
https://debunked.wordpress.com/the-possessions-of-lee-harvey-oswald-photographic-equipment/

As for Morley, I cannot answer for his thoughts on conspiracy. I have read where he certainly doesn't believe it was foreign actors (Cubans, KGB, etc.)…it would seem from my reading his website that (and yes you must subscribe) it's hard to pin down his exact reasons for conspiracy….although he has inferred at times to "medical evidence".

https://thecyberwire.com/podcasts/spycast/647/transcript
On this podcast though he does actually seem to pin down his thoughts:

The Paines claimed the Minox was theirs and it was returned to them. There is some unique stuff about it, but it isn't that special overall. It was a unique camera in that it was all mechanical and could be on a keychain and never needed a battery, but the Paine's claimed it had broken five years before and had not been used in that time. There was still a roll of film in it, and the FBI never apparently took that camera apart. It was not taken with Lee's stuff, but the Paines handed it over the following year and they said they got it back. But supposedly there is also a Minox at the National Archives. Again, weird... but I don't think there was anything huge about it. They were produced in pretty big quantities.

I don't think there was any real good chain of custody in regard to the Minox, but I do believe the Paines that it was their camera. And they had claimed it was broken and the one the FBI had was broken, so that seems to check out.

Oswald also had a twin reflex camera, that was not at the Paines'. But that also wasn't a special camera. It is what took the photos of him with the rifle.






Yeah, Morley alludes to lots of things, but he won't get down and say "look, Anti-Castro Cubans did it!" or "CIA did it because JFK was going to shred the agency or because they were mad about the lack of air support at the Bay of Pigs."

But I think that is necessary for a guy like Morley, because he needs people to keep listening to his stories and subscribing to his blog. That's his income. And he admitted on the Spycast, there is not evidence that any conspiracy did it or was involved.

This was from earlier in that same podcast:

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Jefferson Morley: I think the president was ambushed by his enemies in Dallas, who had the ability to make the crime look like something else. And I think that's the fundamental takeaway that I have now. Who was it? I don't know. There's some people who are plausible suspects, but, you know, nothing that rise. I mean, I would even hesitate to, you know, mention their names in a story in terms of saying, you know, That person, you know, conspired to kill the president. The evidence is -- it's not -- the evidence doesn't support that kind of claim, but I think the evidence does support that big picture of what happened.

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The problem for guys like him that make their income on conspiracies with this... they know they dont have evidence on their side. They can't commit to a theory, because they don't have the evidence to do so. But once they commit to a theory, you can bring in all the other evidence to discredit it.

But he is better off by continuing to push the narratives.

Yep…I've been reading his blogs for a while myself…and your assessment about "pinning him down" as to his exact stance is correct. (Although he does allude to certain "rogue" CIA operatives a lot)…he has said that he doesn't expect any bombshell once the files are finally released. (And in a way that's a win for him…as it still allows him to cash in on the "unknown" possibilities). As for myself, are the intelligence agencies trying to just cover their ass all these years as to them dropping the ball on Oswald's known whereabouts and the danger that he imposed…or, is there something more nefarious at play….hopefully those answers are forthcoming. In the meantime, it's an interesting study.

Kennedy assassination threads are among Texags' most reliable

"Reclaiming History" next up for me at the library.

Bighunter43 said:

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Yep…I've been reading his blogs for a while myself…and your assessment about "pinning him down" as to his exact stance is correct. (Although he does allude to certain "rogue" CIA operatives a lot)…he has said that he doesn't expect any bombshell once the files are finally released. (And in a way that's a win for him…as it still allows him to cash in on the "unknown" possibilities). As for myself, are the intelligence agencies trying to just cover their ass all these years as to them dropping the ball on Oswald's known whereabouts and the danger that he imposed…or, is there something more nefarious at play….hopefully those answers are forthcoming. In the meantime, it's an interesting study.

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Yeah, I agree with you that the agency had a lot of data on Oswald and wanted to cover their ass. They likely had the information from GdM that Oswald shot at Walker. They knew he tried to sell off his radar secrets to the KGB (which they didnt care, because they already knew all that). They knew he had mental health issues, attempted suicide, shot himself (not attempting suicide) and was just an all around loose cannon. They should have spent more time on him and they should have shared with the FBI.

But I think it was more that the CIA dropped the ball on a dangerous nutball than the CIA wound him up. I think Lee kind of wound himself up.

They already looked completely inept with the Bay of Pigs. Them having tons of intelligence on this guy and never doing anything about it just made them look more inept. I think the 'conspiracy' was more for the CIA to save face rather than to plot the assassination of the POTUS.

FobTies said:

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She said she thinks there were 2 shooters. Pretty bold statement.

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She also says they want to question members of the Warren Commission and the doctors from Parkland, all of whom have been dead for years.

She has absolutely no idea what she's talking about

Agristotle said:

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"Reclaiming History" next up for me at the library.

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It is a good one, but massively long and Bugliosi can be off putting. It would have been much better if he just explained things rather than trying to dunk on everyone all the time.

I recommend it on the Kindle, because of the massive amounts of end notes. The original book came with a CD-ROM with hundreds of pages of end notes, data, sources, etc. On the Kindle (at least computer version) you can click on it and read it as you go instead of referencing them back and forth.

You can read the 4 days in November section and just get the run down of all the events with all the known data.

The second part of the book delves into the various conspiracies and debunks them. You can skip around just to what interests you.

OCKHAMS RAZOR

Occam's razor (also known as the 'law of parsimony') is a philosophical tool for 'shaving off' unlikely explanations. Essentially, when faced with competing explanations for the same phenomenon, the simplest is likely the correct one.

Namesake William of Occam said the best explanation of any phenomenon is the one that makes the fewest assumptions.

Infection_Ag11 said:

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FobTies said:

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She said she thinks there were 2 shooters. Pretty bold statement.

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She also says they want to question members of the Warren Commission and the doctors from Parkland, all of whom have been dead for years.

She has absolutely no idea what she's talking about

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The neurosurgery fellow is still alive, but he spends all his time now (retired in his late 80s) preaching about how cannabis can attack and kill cancer cells in your body and that it is the magical healing drug we all need.

https://cannabiscancerconnection.com/about-dr-joe

You are right, all the main doctors have been dead a while at this point. Dr. Joe Goldstrich even calls himself the chief gofer for the other doctors that were in the room.

But yes, basically everyone she wants to call in front of Congress have been dead for a long time. All members of the Warren Commission. Everyone from the Church Committee except Gary Hart. All the main doctors in Parkland. All the doctors involved with the autopsy.

I would bet a lot of money that what the records will show is that:

the CIA dropped the ball in not really pursuing Oswald BEFORE the shooting

that the FBI knew he was in Cuba and the Soviet Union and was a Soviet lackey but did not get the CIA to really put resources into stopping him until it was too late.

that's it.

just like 9/11 where the intel agencies knew something was up, but could not connect the dots in time.

bonfarr said:

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100% agree with this take. Conspiracy theorists are going to be disappointed after all of the files are released but I don't think it will change one single mind on the subject.

I just don't believe a plot that killed a sitting US President could be kept a secret for 60 years when hundreds of people would have been involved.

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The problem with all conspiracy theories on this scale is they require us to ascribe a degree of hyper competence and secrecy to a large number of people, many of whom would have worked for the federal government, that is entirely unwarranted and undeserved.

The reality is that people just simply cannot accept that the most powerful and protected man in the world was murdered by a 24 year old minimum wage office worker on the basis of random opportunity. That is a degree of universal disorder and lack of structure that makes people very uncomfortable with their own lives and the world around them. It therefore MUST be some grand conspiracy.