So for me part of the problem is that I disagree with Berhalter's overall philosophy here.

He came in with a formation he wants to play and a style and a rather involved way he wants to play, and while that's great for a club team it feels like the exact opposite approach that works best with a national team. You can tailor your club personnel to do what you want to do, not so much with a national team.

A much more logical approach would seem to be looking at your available squad and figuring out how to get your best players on the field with an easy to understand philosophy that can be implemented in limited practice time.

He's already adjusted how he wants to play

Recycling MLS coaches will never lead USA soccer anywhere.

fig96 said:

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So for me part of the problem is that I disagree with Berhalter's overall philosophy here.

He came in with a formation he wants to play and a style and a rather involved way he wants to play, and while that's great for a club team it feels like the exact opposite approach that works best with a national team. You can tailor your club personnel to do what you want to do, not so much with a national team.

A much more logical approach would seem to be looking at your available squad and figuring out how to get your best players on the field with an easy to understand philosophy that can be implemented in limited practice time.

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Berhalter isn't doing anything much different than what the top clubs are already doing. Pretty sure Chelsea, Barca, Leipzig, Wolfsburg, Dortmund, Juve and Man City are all playing out of the back, counter pressing high up the field and pushing the fullbacks up to provide width in attack. It shouldn't be a big adjustment for those players coming in and playing for the national team.

Don't think there is long enough to change the approach from window to window due to what personnel is available. Case in point this window, we were missing McKennie and several players had to leave after one match. It's hard to implement two different strategies given the personnel available.

Onceaggie2.0 said:

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Recycling MLS coaches will never lead USA soccer anywhere.

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The most successful USA coach that took us to the WC quarter finals was an MLS coach. The recent non-MLS coach wasn't great. There is something to be said about knowing the CONCACAAF region/players that helps you be successful USMNT manager.

I would also say just assuming the quality of a player or coach, based on the region they play in, is a poor way to evaluate.

I wasnt happy with the Berhalter signing, but he has shown a willingness to change his stance on things and has realyl committed to getting young talent to invest in the USMNT

PatAg said:

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I would also say just assuming the quality of a player or coach, based on the region they play in, is a poor way to evaluate.

I wasnt happy with the Berhalter signing, but he has shown a willingness to change his stance on things and has realyl committed to getting young talent to invest in the USMNT

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I don't know if it's just him or not, but the getting Musah, Dest, and more to commit the US has been impressive.

akm91 said:

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Onceaggie2.0 said:

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Recycling MLS coaches will never lead USA soccer anywhere.

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The most successful USA coach that took us to the WC quarter finals was an MLS coach. The recent non-MLS coach wasn't great. There is something to be said about knowing the CONCACAAF region/players that helps you be successful USMNT manager.

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would that be Bruce Arena who lost to Trinidads b team when trying to go to the WC?

Onceaggie2.0 said:

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akm91 said:

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Onceaggie2.0 said:

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Recycling MLS coaches will never lead USA soccer anywhere.

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The most successful USA coach that took us to the WC quarter finals was an MLS coach. The recent non-MLS coach wasn't great. There is something to be said about knowing the CONCACAAF region/players that helps you be successful USMNT manager.

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would that be Bruce Arena who lost to Trinidads b team when trying to go to the WC?

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And it was the non-MLS coach that put the US into the situation where they needed to get a result on the last match day.

akm91 said:

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Onceaggie2.0 said:

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akm91 said:

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Onceaggie2.0 said:

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Recycling MLS coaches will never lead USA soccer anywhere.

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The most successful USA coach that took us to the WC quarter finals was an MLS coach. The recent non-MLS coach wasn't great. There is something to be said about knowing the CONCACAAF region/players that helps you be successful USMNT manager.

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would that be Bruce Arena who lost to Trinidads b team when trying to go to the WC?

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And it was the non-MLS coach that put the US into the situation where they needed to get a result on the last match day.

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oh so thats the excuse to losing to a b team squad with half your roster playing for European sides? Hilarious.

Was Arena in charge of the entire WCQ? Was Arena blameless? Heck no as he compounded the situation with his choice of the lineup. He didn't rotate some of the older starters and also he started Omar. No way Omar should've been anywhere near the line-up.

But, the loss to T&T does not diminish what he accomplished in 2002.

It's like hiring a successful national team coach is a complex task not wholly dependent on their being foreign or domestic or something.

The U-23s didn't fail for any single reason. It was a combination of things, many of which should have been foreseen and addressed by members of the coaching and federation staff prior to the game the other night. Also, the players need to play better.

Its the Olympics so some things are also out of our control, like the fact its a small 16 team youth tournament. The USA is never going to realistically make it every time even if we fix the problems we do have. Brazil and Argentina dont make it every time, much less the European countries who have only 4 slots.

akm91 said:

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Berhalter isn't doing anything much different than what the top clubs are already doing. Pretty sure Chelsea, Barca, Leipzig, Wolfsburg, Dortmund, Juve and Man City are all playing out of the back, counter pressing high up the field and pushing the fullbacks up to provide width in attack. It shouldn't be a big adjustment for those players coming in and playing for the national team.

Don't think there is long enough to change the approach from window to window due to what personnel is available. Case in point this window, we were missing McKennie and several players had to leave after one match. It's hard to implement two different strategies given the personnel available.

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I don't know how much has changed, but this article from a few years ago illustrates the things Berhalter was trying to do and why it was challenging for the players to learn. It's very different than just adapting a few tactics. and I don't know that we're a much more improved side since that point in time.

https://slate.com/culture/2019/11/us-soccer-gregg-berhalter-canada.html

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The charitable explanation for the U.S. men's recent struggles is that they're still on the upward arc of a steep learning curve. The System looks complex because it is. The team attacks in preplanned patterns of movement. Off-ball runs and passes are worked out in practice so they can be executed at speed on the field. (This feels like a very American football way of trying to play, but many top teams drill at least some limited sequences now.) Players have to keep the ball, then get on the same page as their teammates about what happens next. This takes time to orchestrate.

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And I'm not talking about wholesale changes in formation or tactics depending on the player pool, I'm talking about very simple adjustments to accommodate available personnel. I understand the value of consistency, but it makes no sense to be locked into say a 4-3-3 when a break comes up and you have a few wingers out injured.

In a national team situation any coach needs to look at what his players do well and find a way to get his best players on the field vs trying to shoehorn them into a prescribed concept.

JJxvi said:

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Its the Olympics so some things are also out of our control, like the fact its a small 16 team youth tournament. The USA is never going to realistically make it every time even if we fix the problems we do have. Brazil and Argentina dont make it every time, much less the European countries who have only 4 slots.

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I dont think England even puts together a U23 team to attempt qualification. Not making the Olympics because our best U23 players are overseas is actually kind of a good thing.

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I don't know how much has changed, but this article from a few years ago illustrates the things Berhalter was trying to do and why it was challenging for the players to learn. It's very different than just adapting a few tactics. and I don't know that we're a much more improved side since that point in time.

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Even the same writer concedes there's substantial progress as of November 2020.

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It would have been of limited help. Despite the scoreline, the team that played to a 00 draw in Swansea bore very little resemblance to the ponderous outfit that took the field in 2019. This version played quickly and with purpose through midfield. Players in all sorts of positions sent defenders backpedaling, and players other than the quarterbacking defensive midfielder sought out dangerous long passes. At times they were sloppy, and they were never able to find the goal they probably deserved, but still. The U.S. picked up the pace and made it fun, and it has not always been that way in the last two five nine years. What gives?

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USA vs Wales recap

Look at Pulisic who hasn't been with the team in about 18 months. He picked "complicated" patterns of play pretty easily. Same can be said for the most part of the newer players to the pool such as Musah, Reyna, Aaronson and Dike.

The common thread across all these players are that they're playing at the highest levels where it's not uncommon to have complicated patterns of play (Dike may be the exception).

Fair points.

I'm still very much not sold on Berhalter other than as a recruiter, but hopefully he'll prove me wrong. We've had a handful of good games but I'm expecting/hoping for more consistency moving forward.

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Look at Pulisic who hasn't been with the team in about 18 months. He picked "complicated" patterns of play pretty easily. Same can be said for the most part of the newer players to the pool such as Musah, Reyna, Aaronson and Dike.

The common thread across all these players are that they're playing at the highest levels where it's not uncommon to have complicated patterns of play (Dike may be the exception).

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Correct me if I'm wrong here, it seems to me that nnce the bulk of the team gets what they're supposed to do, it's easier to add new players to the mix. It's when you're teaching everyone at once where there are issues.

And certainly might be a way he picked players early on who knew what was expected of them.

If we use 11/15/2019 match vs Canada as a comparison point to where we are based on recent friendlies:

4 new defenders played (Robinson, Richards, Reynolds, Miyazga)
3 new midfield played (Musah, De la Torre, Acosta)
6 new attackers played (Pulisic, Reyna, Aaronson, Dike, Siebatchu, Gionachinni)

That's a lot of newcomers to integrate in a friendly window. Even with all the new faces, we played some pretty attractive possession based attacking soccer. However, the play was uneven and we gave away a lot of chances (most were not punished). Despite all that, there are definite signs of progress made.

England also has an issue that they compete in the Olympics as Team GB and the FA and Scottish and Welsh FA have been very leery or doing anything about ****ing up their special dispensation for having seperate FA. I think they had to carefully thread the needle to be able to compete jn the London Olympics

ChipFTAC01 said:

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England also has an issue that they compete in the Olympics as Team GB and the FA and Scottish and Welsh FA have been very leery or doing anything about ****ing up their special dispensation for having seperate FA. I think they had to carefully thread the needle to be able to compete jn the London Olympics

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All the FAs (ones you listed plus Northern Ireland) actually unanimously agreed to just let the English FA represent the whole UK, but the UK Olympic Committee (can't remember their official name) insisted on otherwise, so they sprinkled in some Welsh.

They haven't competed again since they hosted in London. It was quite the one-off for them.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ExwES6vWEAY-UW4?format=jpg&name=medium

One notable exception, but he hasn't played in a while.

Daryl Dike getting scouted by a bunch of top 6 clubs

KCup17 said:

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Daryl Dike getting scouted by a bunch of top 6 clubs

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Can you say leg day? Damn.

Huh

Damn. Twellman is okay, but I think he does get a bit over his skis sometimes with his criticisms and it's not surprising current players wouldn't take kindly to that as many of them probably played with him back in the day. His "What are we doing?!" rant was pretty epic at the time, but it's not some hugely insightful platform that should have stayed as long as it has.

Mr. White said:

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jeffk said:

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Damn. Twellman is okay, but I think he does get a bit over his skis sometimes with his criticisms and it's not surprising current players wouldn't take kindly to that as many of them probably played with him back in the day. His "What are we doing?!" rant was pretty epic at the time, but it's not some hugely insightful platform that should have stayed as long as it has.

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Doesn't call for Jozy's racism

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No, you're right.

And, yeah, TT didn't criticize the players this time, but he has at other times.

Mr. White said:

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jeffk said:

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Damn. Twellman is okay, but I think he does get a bit over his skis sometimes with his criticisms and it's not surprising current players wouldn't take kindly to that as many of them probably played with him back in the day. His "What are we doing?!" rant was pretty epic at the time, but it's not some hugely insightful platform that should have stayed as long as it has.

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Doesn't call for Jozy's racism

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Big soccer fan?

Yep. Been watching since World Cup '02. Not a bad time to start.

Jozy we love ya but what does TT's national team career gave to do with anything? Would the same standard be applied to Stu, JOB, and Charlie Davies? Seems to me Jozy should be careful ****talking about players with a history of injuries.

deadbq03 said:

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ChipFTAC01 said:

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England also has an issue that they compete in the Olympics as Team GB and the FA and Scottish and Welsh FA have been very leery or doing anything about ****ing up their special dispensation for having seperate FA. I think they had to carefully thread the needle to be able to compete jn the London Olympics

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All the FAs (ones you listed plus Northern Ireland) actually unanimously agreed to just let the English FA represent the whole UK, but the UK Olympic Committee (can't remember their official name) insisted on otherwise, so they sprinkled in some Welsh.

They haven't competed again since they hosted in London. It was quite the one-off for them.

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I attended the Team GB vs UAE game at Wembley and it was pretty cool being part of the rare crowd that got to see Team GB. Also got to see Ryan Giggs score

On the night they were eliminated on penalties I was in a hotel in Edinburgh and it was hilarious how little the Scottish people cared about that game

Yeah that's a rough look for Jozy. TT is going after the system as he should. Our youth development on the national team level has been horrendous. We're missing an entire generation of players which is why our best XI for the senior team are all so damn young.

Going after TT's career is pretty dumb. Dude scored 101 goals for New England. As someone said on Twitter:

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Twellman's career was cut short by head injuries. Jozy's career was cut short by getting us eliminated from the ****ing World Cup.

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I think there have been several articles in the UK that name Jozy the #1 worst striker/bust in the Premier League. 70 games and only 2 goals with Hull and Sunderland.

I think Jozy is still mad that he really does get called up anymore. He played the 2019 Gold Cup but those were the only games since the Trinidad and Tobago match. I do think if he had continued to get called up through today and a few more years, he'd have passed Donovan and Dempsey on the USMNT goals list

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And Taylor isn't criticizing the players, like Lexi did, he's criticizing the system.

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What is wrong with criticizing the players, when warranted? They are all pro's now days playing in these competitions; especially for the senior team and the U-23's.