***Official USMNT-WCQ Octagonal Thread***

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H.E. Pennypacker
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In reply to KCup17 • 2:23p, 11/4/21
AG
That's fine, but McKenzie isn't playing well either, or at all really. All things being equal, I'm going with the guy that has WCQ,WC,Champions League, Bundesliga experience and is a longtime captain& starter for better club teams and the USMNT.

Berhalter just likes to overcomplicate simple things.

I don't have any issue with a guy like Arriola being on our squad. The issue is that Berhalter goes out of his way to shoehorn him into starting lineups, while also leaving other better players that aren't his guys off the roster entirely.

How many more chances has Berhalter given MLS lifers Arriola/Roldan/Yueil/Dgorgivic over more talented young guys like Hoppe, Dike, Konrad, LDLT etc?
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oh no
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2:27p, 11/4/21
AG
i bet arriola and lleget get a start out of these two match days somehow, but I think my best 4-3-3 XI:

Aaronson/Pulisic --- Pepi --- Weah

McKennie ---- Adams --- Musah

Antonee --- Zimmmer ---- Miles ---- Cannon/Yedlin

Turner



Pulisic may sub both or start and play in only one given fitness level coming off injury. I'd like to see what Scally can do, but not sure he gets a start over Cannon or Yedlin in these very important qualifiers. I want to see more Richards - such a promising young CB playing at such a high level, but these are so important and Zimmer and Miles have shown to be a great pair working together at CB.
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ThunderCougarFalconBird
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In reply to PatAg • 2:44p, 11/4/21
AG
PatAg said:
on the road against Jamaica should be a good opportunity for a road win.
That is a limited/no fans fixture, right?
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jeffk
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In reply to ThunderCougarFalconBird • 2:46p, 11/4/21
AG
It was no fans but then the Jamaican govt lightened restrictions to allow a smaller number of fans to attend. Covid-related.
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KCup17
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In reply to H.E. Pennypacker • 2:55p, 11/4/21
AG
I agree with you there. Just making a point to say that Brooks isn't in that great form at the moment so his omission isn't all too shocking to me.

I don't like the constant addition of MLS players into our lineup especially when those MLS players play maybe part of 1 game or get in for the last 15 mins and provide nothing.
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Rudyjax
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2:59p, 11/4/21
AG
I think the question on everyone's mind is, Dies Weston get chocked against Mexico?
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KCup17
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In reply to PatAg • 3:00p, 11/4/21
AG
I have no idea... My guess is that Gregg is trying bring in certain players for consistency sake to set the culture for the team but I have no idea. That's not me defending him just trying to put myself into this shoes.
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tysker
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In reply to oh no • 3:04p, 11/4/21
AG
oh no said:
What does Roldan bring to the table?
Hot take: Roldan is better at the international level than Busio
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deadbq03
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In reply to tysker • 3:25p, 11/4/21
AG
tysker said:
oh no said:
What does Roldan bring to the table?
Hot take: Roldan is better at the international level than Busio
If better = making fewer mistakes, then you're right.

But Busio has some truly brilliant moments to go with the mistakes. He's got a much higher ceiling.

Roldan is a reliable warm body and nothing more. He's subbed in for every WCQ and does absolutely nothing… good or bad.
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BJM1781
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In reply to deadbq03 • 3:41p, 11/4/21
AG
deadbq03 said:

He's subbed in for every WCQ and does absolutely nothing… good or bad.
And that seems to be the type of player Berhalter gravitates toward. His damned 'reliable commodities'. If we are going to beat some of the squads on the road in CONCACAF when they just dig in and defend, we need players with talent who are capable of individual moments of brilliance. The goal is eventually to have an entire team of these type of cats playing together with a coherent, consistent strategy, which is something else Greg tends to struggle with.
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tysker
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In reply to deadbq03 • 3:43p, 11/4/21
AG
Quote:
He's subbed in for every WCQ and does absolutely nothing… good or bad.
nothing except for not making mistakes. which is what you want in WCQ no?
the same thing could be said about Armas, Maestro, and Beckerman in previous cycles. Lower ceiling but also lower variance guys


edit: of course no watch the guy get completely burnt during this window and I look like a fool....
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oh no
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In reply to deadbq03 • 3:45p, 11/4/21
AG
deadbq03 said:
tysker said:
oh no said:
What does Roldan bring to the table?
Hot take: Roldan is better at the international level than Busio
If better = making fewer mistakes, then you're right.

But Busio has some truly brilliant moments to go with the mistakes. He's got a much higher ceiling.

Roldan is a reliable warm body and nothing more. He's subbed in for every WCQ and does absolutely nothing… good or bad.
I would argue that 6 is our weakest position in terms of depth. Tyler Adams is one of the best American soccer players at this time, and he might be THE most important one because the drop-off after him is substantial. Busio might not get your motor going and maybe you recall a bad decision or a bad touch he has made, but he's coming along nicely and it's very important that we develop him and some others in that position. He's young and playing in the top tier in Italy so that helps, but the lack of depth is a reason why he needs to be included in the national team rosters.

With Roldan, and the number of other talented options at wing, even with Reyna, or Pulisic, or Konrad out, I just can't see the argument for him.
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deadbq03
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In reply to oh no • 4:12p, 11/4/21
AG
oh no said:
deadbq03 said:
tysker said:
oh no said:
What does Roldan bring to the table?
Hot take: Roldan is better at the international level than Busio
If better = making fewer mistakes, then you're right.

But Busio has some truly brilliant moments to go with the mistakes. He's got a much higher ceiling.

Roldan is a reliable warm body and nothing more. He's subbed in for every WCQ and does absolutely nothing… good or bad.
I would argue that 6 is our weakest position in terms of depth. Tyler Adams is one of the best American soccer players at this time, and he might be THE most important one because the drop-off after him is substantial. Busio might not get your motor going and maybe you recall a bad decision or a bad touch he has made, but he's coming along nicely and it's very important that we develop him and some others in that position. He's young and playing in the top tier in Italy so that helps, but the lack of depth is a reason why he needs to be included in the national team rosters.

With Roldan, and the number of other talented options at wing, even with Reyna, or Pulisic, or Konrad out, I just can't see the argument for him.
Is Busio a 6? I kinda think of him as an 8, which I suppose whether I'm right or wrong about that, it reiterates your point about the 6 spot… we've either literally got very few guys there, or the guys we have don't play it well enough to look like they belong there.

To be fair though, Adams is more defense-oriented than what I'd consider the traditional 6 to be, so it's going to be hard to find anyone like him. For lack of a better term, I'll use a Football Manager term: Adams is a DM - Anchor Man. He is gonna lock down the back and distribute it well, but it's a rare event if he's sniffing a goal scoring opportunity.

With Dest running wild, Adams' extra defensiveness is exactly what we have to have, and I agree - he's irreplaceable.
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mrmill3218
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In reply to H.E. Pennypacker • 4:23p, 11/4/21
AG
H.E. Pennypacker said:
deadbq03 said:
So with Dest out, what are the chances we see Scally start? Is there precedence for players starting in WCQ on their first senior call up?

It's probably too big of a risk, but neither Yedlin or Robinson are exciting choices.


I think A. Robinson is one of our best players right now. He's a locked starter in my mind at the moment. I imagine Yedlin gets the start at RB. Mexico in a home WCQ is just too big of a moment to start Scally IMO.

I don't like leaving Brooks off. His experience /talent level means he's a lock roster guy to me if healthy. If we are going to start leaving players off for "performance," Berhalter should start with guys like Roldan/Lletget/Bello/McKenzie etc. None of those guys have performed better than Brooks, and none have his stature.

I'll reserve judgment on Ferreira, but don't like leaving Hoppe/LDLT off this roster. I also think someone like Duane Holmes would be more useful than Roldan, but guess who's a lock roster guy.
I agree with everything here profoundly. Roldan, Lletget, and McKenzie are locks but have never played well. McKenzie's performance against Mexico was probably the worst I've ever seen from any American. If we're going to leave players off, I'm not sure why these guys get a pass. Heck, Lletget and Roldan don't even play well in MLS.
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oh no
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4:45p, 11/4/21
AG
I bet, like a lot of players, he played a lot of forward or CAM as a youth, but Gianluca has been playing 6 for club and country and we need him. I do think he played more as an 8 in a couple of Gold Cup matches last summer when he started along with Acosta and Lleget. For so long, it seemed like we ONLY had Michael Bradley at 6... and now it has felt like we only have Tyler Adams. Who else has the USMNT even tried at 6 in the last year besides Acosta, Adams, and Busio? I Think in a gold cup game, we played Sands at 4 several games but 6 in one game and he did okay (?)... but I think that's it. That's all of our 6's.
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deadbq03
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In reply to oh no • 5:07p, 11/4/21
AG
IIRC, Sands looked good as a middle CB in a back 3 in Gold Cup but then looked like sheer dog poo as a 6 in our first WCQ window.

Looked it up: yeah he stank it up as a 6 against Honduras and got subbed off.
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JJxvi
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5:20p, 11/4/21
AG
Pretty sure Busio plays as a 6 (central midfielder) not as an 8 (more like mezzala) in Venzia's 4-3-3
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oh no
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7:25p, 11/4/21
AG
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BJM1781
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In reply to oh no • 8:50p, 11/4/21
AG
Sad but true.

Guess that's what we get for selecting and MLS guy to be USMNT manager. How'd that lineup with 5 MLS guys starting do against Panama again?
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PatAg
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In reply to BJM1781 • 4:59a, 11/5/21
AG
BJM1781 said:
Sad but true.

Guess that's what we get for selecting and MLS guy to be USMNT manager. How'd that lineup with 5 MLS guys starting do against Panama again?
He played and coached in Europe, not just MLS.
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jeffk
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9:51a, 11/5/21
AG
Youth related news here. FC Dallas folks, how good of a hire is this?

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fig96
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In reply to jeffk • 10:03a, 11/5/21
AG
I mean, Tab is now available again…
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jeffk
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In reply to fig96 • 10:11a, 11/5/21
AG
Poor dude. He didn't forget how to coach at Houston; hope he gets another shot somewhere better quickly.
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fig96
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In reply to jeffk • 10:16a, 11/5/21
AG
Yeah, he wasn't ever going to have much of a chance in that situation. Hopefully he'll be back on his feet soon.
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oh no
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10:42a, 11/5/21
AG
new majority ownership at Dynamo has promised to shake things up and most thought they'd finally spend $$ on good players. didn't expect Tab to be out so soon. I think Tab was really good for years with USYNTs
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fig96
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In reply to oh no • 10:51a, 11/5/21
AG
Not to derail the thread, but it sounds like Onstad came on as a GM with an understanding they're going to spend on players. Fingers crossed he can help get the franchise back on track.

To make this USMNT related, sucks that we never got to what Holden could have developed into for the Nats.
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BJM1781
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In reply to PatAg • 12:19p, 11/5/21
AG
PatAg said:
BJM1781 said:
Sad but true.

Guess that's what we get for selecting and MLS guy to be USMNT manager. How'd that lineup with 5 MLS guys starting do against Panama again?
He played and coached in Europe, not just MLS.
He coached in Sweden for a couple of years before getting fired, so I wouldn't say he has much experience in a real top 5 league in Europe. The overwhelming majority of his managerial career has been in the MLS, and he just has his MLS guys he's comfortable with. It just gets a little frustrating when he continues to bypass more talented and potentially better players for his typical dudes that most other managers would not be selecting.
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ThunderCougarFalconBird
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In reply to jeffk • 12:25p, 11/5/21
AG
jeffk said:
Poor dude. He didn't forget how to coach at Houston
This. So much this. He went the way of J.J. Watt. Deserves to win a championship and more than capable as an individual. Unfortunately stuck in a dumpster fire of an organization.
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jeffk
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12:28p, 11/5/21
AG
Eh, he'll be a genius or a bum based on how we look next week. It's fun to debate, but roster selection is always a mixed bag. No one is ever fully happy. We know who we'd bring based on seeing them play. We don't know anything about the practice and squad dynamic or other things Gregg probably considers when making his selections. There's definitely an anti-MLS bias at work in some of the critiques, but if he wins with those guys, no one ever comes back to praise the selections.
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BJM1781
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12:55p, 11/5/21
AG
I hear ya. I certainly won't complain if we come away with 6 points this go round. But I don't see a guy like Roldan making an impact in either match, and I still feel like an older player with whom you know what you're getting (a low ceiling) isn't worth a roster spot. I'd rather have a young guy with potential who doesn't even play get the experience of travelling and training with the squad.
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JJxvi
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12:55p, 11/5/21
AG
Quote:
He coached in Sweden for a couple of years before getting fired, so I wouldn't say he has much experience in a real top 5 league in Europe. The overwhelming majority of his managerial career has been in the MLS, and he just has his MLS guys he's comfortable with. It just gets a little frustrating when he continues to bypass more talented and potentially better players for his typical dudes that most other managers would not be selecting.


If he's "MLS" then every American is "MLS". He was the first ever American born coach to be appointed manager/head coach in Europe. He's literally like the first guy who was ever what Jesse Marsch is right now, and most already have Marsch pencilled in (even though he will likely be "some MLS guy" by the time he ever would get hired to that role.

He was also literally the most "non MLS" American player of his generation (maybe multiple generations). He played for 15 years in the Netherlands, England, and Germany also. He's literally the most European experienced American coach the USMNT has ever hired, and the only guy who they could have hired for whom that description would (arguably) have fit better would have been to hire back the same guy they fired in 2011 (Bradley).

Thinking Berhalter is an "MLS" guy is only slightly more true than someone thinking that about Tata Martino if we had hired him instead.
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BJM1781
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1:12p, 11/5/21
AG
You cannot compare Marsch and Berhalter's club managerial careers. Sorry.

Coaching RB Leipzig and RB Salzburg, who are both in the UCL, is light years beyond a season and a half at Hamerby. The pressure on Marsch and the experience he is gaining is infinitely greater than what Berhalter had prior to USMNT appointment.

Yes, most Americans will have gotten a start in the MLS. That is slowly changing with more Yanks heading to Europe at younger and younger ages (which is amazing).

Not denying that Gregg was a trailblazer as far as his playing career in the Bundesliga, but stop acting like that automatically translates to some superior coaching ability. Plenty of amazing players who played at much better clubs are not great managers. He forged his coaching career in Columbus, therefore he has primarily been an MLS manager.
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JJxvi
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In reply to BJM1781 • 1:43p, 11/5/21
AG
BJM1781 said:
You cannot compare Marsch and Berhalter's club managerial careers. Sorry.

Coaching RB Leipzig and RB Salzburg, who are both in the UCL, is light years beyond a season and a half at Hamerby. The pressure on Marsch and the experience he is gaining is infinitely greater than what Berhalter had prior to USMNT appointment.

Yes, most Americans will have gotten a start in the MLS. That is slowly changing with more Yanks heading to Europe at younger and younger ages (which is amazing).

Not denying that Gregg was a trailblazer as far as his playing career in the Bundesliga, but stop acting like that automatically translates to some superior coaching ability. Plenty of amazing players who played at much better clubs are not great managers. He forged his coaching career in Columbus, therefore he has primarily been an MLS manager.
Yes, most Americans will have gotten a start in the MLS, but Gregg's career did not start in MLS in any sense (playing or coaching), and he might be the only American coach that will ever be said about. MLS is just where he was coaching when he was hired.

I agree that coaching Hammarby is no Leipzig or even Salzburg, but there were no American coaches who had coached in Europe at even that level except Berhalter and Bradley. Of course, the fact that he was a player has no bearing on his managerial ability, but saying that the leagues that he played in aren't experiences that a manager builds on is laughable. Its like saying that if the Columbus Crew had hired Wayne Rooney, who then went on to be USMNT head coach, that Wayne Rooney is an "MLS coach" because he ended his career as a player in MLS and then coached an MLS team, as if he never would have learned anything relating to coaching as a player in England. Like a guy who played 15 years in Holland, Germany, and England is going to have no idea how to judge the difference between a defender in MLS vs one in Germany because he was a head coach for the Columbus Crew? Its ludicrous.

Say he sucks all you want (I never said anything at all about his "superior coaching ability"), but when you're invoking "MLS guy" and trying to tie that to him in particular as a reason he sucks or was a bad hire, you just show your own biases, IMO.
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BJM1781
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2:04p, 11/5/21
AG
Yeah, I am biased against the MLS. It's not anywhere near the equivalent of the Championship in England at this point. Sorry.

But honestly, I'm not ragging him for coaching in the MLS, but his instance on bringing in the same guys we know are not anywhere near the level of other players in the pool. That can directly be tied to his time in the MLS, as these are 'his guys' that he knows better due to either coaching them (Zardes) or seeing them far more often than those in Europe.

I do, however, appreciate your carefully crafted defense of Berhalter. I see how much this means to you by the many edits on your posts.
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JJxvi
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2:07p, 11/5/21
AG
Right. Lets be real. Most of the players we are talking about are "his guys" and would be "the coach's guys" for any possible coach we would have hired, because they are generally the only guys in the player pool old/experienced enough to drink (when in the US) in most cases.
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