**** Spurs vs. Grizzlies - Western Conference Finals ****

27,163 Views | 1377 Replies | Last: 12 yr ago by Diet Cokehead
Sher Thing
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Interesting Iowa.

This is a very interesting series going forward. Obviously the Grizz need to win both games 3 and 4 and it wouldn't necessarily surprise me if they did. Hopefully the Spurs can steal one.
4stringAg
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The foul situation favored Memphis but there were bad calls and no calls on both sides. Poorly officiated game all around.

However, regarding the flagrant foul (and I'm sure this won't be popular here), I think that the foul was marginally flagrant and is a call that is 50/50. Allen was in the air in a vulnerable position, Ginobili made little play for the ball and pulled Allen down by the arm and he landed hard. I wouldn't have had an issue with a simple foul call there, a hard playoff foul, Allen goes to the line for 2 and Spurs ball after the FTs. However, Ginobili wasn't real smart to make that kind of play in that situation putting the chance for a flagrant to be called.

Now, Allen's histrionics after the play were some Oscar worthy moments indeed, whether or not they helped sell the call is up for debate as the refs still went to the review monitor to look at the foul and still called it flagrant. I wouldn't call that play a "flop" in the classic sense because Allen was fouled and landed hard. But he did a good acting job.

I heard STAN van Gundy (not Jeff) interviewed on Memphis radio and he had some interesting analysis regarding the series and Memphis' adjustments. He thinks the Grizz are going to continue to give increased minutes for Bayless and Pondexter in lieu of Allen and Prince. In the OKC series, Allen and Prince were guarding Martin and Durant primarily so the defensive need to slow down the 2 primary scoring threats for OKC were outweighing their offensive liabilities.

In this series, they are being asked to guard role players who are primarily spot up guys like Danny Green who could be guarded likely just as effectively by Bayless and/or Pondexter. But on the offensive end, no one respects Allen/Prince's offense so the lane is being clogged for Randolph and Gasol to do work and also minimizing lanes for Conley to drive.

With Bayless and Pondexter out there, you can still get decent D on the role players, but have 2 guys that can at least hit outside shots to help open the floor up a bit.
Sher Thing
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I mentioned beforehand when I saw the crew doing the game that I didn't like the way this same crew officiated game 4 of the GSW/SA series. There were tons of missed calls that game as well and last night was even worse.

Scott Foster is a terrible official. He isn't biased towards any team but just bad overall.
Sher Thing
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I don't know MemAg. It seems like the Grizz changing their whole lineup is showing a bit of panic on their part. Especially changing it for offensive reasons when they have been about nothing but defense all-season.

Just shows me that they don't have confidence in their defense stopping the SA offense. Just MO though.

AggieBusDriver
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quote:

Basketball by far is the most difficult sport to officiate though.


Yep, Basketball is like trying to determine if it's a pass interference every play.


<Non-Spurs Related>
I agree and disagree. I think all sports are hard to officiate, Soccer is hard just due to the sheer size of the field, no instant replay, and as another poster pointed out, you can have a dramatic impact on the game.

I think Basketball requires the most mental awareness and focus since the action is in such a tight space and requires quick calls, but physically isn't as hard as Soccer where you have one guy in the middle covering a 100yd x 130yd field for a 45 minute half with no timeouts or breaks. Plus you have to deal with mega floppers in Soccer from a greater distance away vs. the Tony Allen flop last night where the officials were only a few feet away AND had instant replay.

But, that's just my opinion (as someone who referees HS soccer). It's not easy being an official, but you usually don't change the way you call the game half way through [at least you shouldn't].
</Non-Spurs Related>

I'll let this thread continue back to the WCF now.
GatorAg03
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MemAg. I have to disagree with you about the flagrant. There was no question that that was a hard playoff foul at most and nothing more. Tony Parker gets fouled that hard on at least 3 times a game. He just needs to take some acting lessons from Allen I guess.

I agree the Griz have to try something different and need some shooters to spread the floor, but going to bench players with less defense really plays into the Spurs hands. The Spurs love playing small ball and running. If the Spurs score like they normally do it's going to be tough for the Griz to keep up. In my opinion the rebounding edge, solid defense and extra foul shots were the only things keeping Memphis in the game. If you go smaller you may lose all of those advantges. It may work, but I think it has even more potential to backfire into a blow out, since the spurs will get easier looks. I would dance with what got me here if I was Memphis and just hope the refs keep blowing the whistle.
4stringAg
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quote:
don't know MemAg. It seems like the Grizz changing their whole lineup is showing a bit of panic on their part. Especially changing it for offensive reasons when they have been about nothing but defense all-season.


SVG didn't think they'd change the starting lineup, just have extended minutes for Bayless and Pondexter. I think we saw it in Game 2. Its more of a number of minutes change I guess.

His point was that Bayless and Pondexter can give good enough defense (about as good as Prince and Allen are providing) on the players they are asked to guard but offer much more offensively to help the Grizz.

sharkenleo
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Game 3 is gonna be a tough one to win. It's a must win for the Grizz and Spurs may get complacent being up 2-0, but on the other hand the 3 days rest will be huge for us. We're in a very good position to end this series if we just steal one of the next two.

And I have to agree with those saying that it wasn't a flagrant. It was a hard playoff foul, nothing more. He flopped at the top and bottom of the foul.

[This message has been edited by sharkenleo (edited 5/22/2013 1:47p).]
Guitarsoup
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quote:
I agree and disagree. I think all sports are hard to officiate, Soccer is hard just due to the sheer size of the field, no instant replay, and as another poster pointed out, you can have a dramatic impact on the game.



As a former soccer player, I will disagree. I think things in soccer are much more clear cut than basketball. A single wrong call will hurt you more in soccer than in basketball (i.e. a penalty kick) but the vast majority of things are very clear.

Soccer refs are in pretty good shape and they shouldn't be that far from the play. Plus their side judge will be equal to as far back as the last guy in front of the keeper, so he does have some help.
BBQ4Me
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Doesn't the league review Flagrants to upgrade/downgrade them?
Ulrich
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On one hand, you're right that Allen's defensive talents are kind of wasted on Green. On the other, if Memphis is going to try to cover Leonard/Green with Pondexter/Bayless, Pop will start running more plays for Leonard and Green. Both players are extremely efficient. Pondexter and Bayless are useful as a shot in the arm offensively, but over the course of a series Leonard and Green are better players.

It's a tough spot for Memphis to be in for sure, but they obviously figured some things out... they got rolling against the Spurs' second unit last night.

From the Spurs' perspective, I think they need to sub in Joseph a little more and Neal a little less, and when Neal is in I'd rather they have him cover Pondexter than Bayless. He struggles mightily with quick guards but was actually pretty decent against Harrison Barnes, who has more offensive game than Pondexter.

Manu needs to handle the ball a little more in the first 3 quarters, that way TP is fresh for the stretch run. Some of those second unit lineups just don't have enough juice.
Guitarsoup
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quote:
Doesn't the league review Flagrants to upgrade/downgrade them?



I'm going to say that there is zero chance the league downgrades it to a foul because then they would be admitting that the refs blew the call with the benefit of replay while knowing that getting it wrong the way they did would completely change the game (which it did.)
Iowaggie
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Tony Allens play wasn't a flop. A flop is when you go down with little to no contact. It is faking or selling a foul call.

It was an overreaction.

According to Duncan in the post game (as shown on ESPN), the flagrant was given because it was committed while Allen was in a vulnerable position.

Whether or not Allen's Ric Flair type theatrics helped sell it is uncertain but I believe that if that is D.Wade (not Manu) a flagrant isn't called.
Guitarsoup
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quote:
"Flopping" will be defined as any physical act that appears to have been intended to cause the referees to call a foul on another player. The primary factor in determining whether a player committed a flop is whether his physical reaction to contact with another player is inconsistent with what would reasonably be expected given the force or direction of the contact.


His holding his head and crying like a little ***** so that the refs would call a desperately needed flagrant foul seems to be in line with the NBA-provided definition of flopping.
Ulrich
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A vulnerable position? Manu grabbed his off arm and released as soon as the ball was out, he didn't take out Allen's legs. Allen knew exactly what he was doing there. He used Manu's arm as a pivot point, pushing back against it so that the force of Manu's grab would pull him way off balance and make the fall look bad. The basketball play is to let the off arm drop (and still get the foul call, because it was an obvious intentional foul) and finish with the right. Then if you want to flop, you do it after the ball is on the way up. It was a genius play and a BS play, especially the part where he grabs his head on the floor. Apparently Memphis does bluff.

Now, TP shouldn't have lobbed that pass with the shot clock running down, and Bonner shouldn't have kicked it to Manu moving away from the basket, and Ginobili shouldn't have picked up his dribble in the trap. SA never should have let it happen, but still, come on.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 5/22/2013 2:27p).]
Ganondorf
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I agree with Iowa that if a D Wade or Lebron makes that foul it isn't a flagrant at all.

Agree with GS that it was a flop with the intent to get a flagrant and not just a foul.
Iowaggie
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quote:

His holding his head and crying like a little ***** so that the refs would call a desperately needed flagrant foul seems to be in line with the NBA-provided definition of flopping.


Really. Read the definition you provide. "Flopping" will be defined as any physical act that appears to have been intended to cause the referees to call a foul on another player. The primary factor in determining whether a player committed a flop is whether his physical reaction to contact with another player is inconsistent with what would reasonably be expected given the force or direction of the contact.


To say that it is a flop is to say that you don't believe a foul would have otherwise been called. That's it.

Guitarsoup
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Here is a better angle of the Tony Allen play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVltp6o0Tgw&t=0m41s
Guitarsoup
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quote:


To say that it is a flop is to say that you don't believe a foul would have otherwise been called. That's it.



I think it is reasonable to say that his crybaby acting was intended to get a call from the refs and would fall within the spirit of that definition.

He enticed the refs to upgrade their call by acting like the contact was worse than it actually was. That is basically what the flopping rule was enacted to prevent.

Guitarsoup
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It isn't like this is a one time thing for Tony Allen.

aggie93
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You could argue the flagrant all day long, in the end I'm just glad the Spurs overcame it and won as you would hate to have that be the determining factor of the game.

I also agree that if Memphis switches out Allen/Prince for Bayless/Poindexter that is a very dangerous move over the course of the game. If the Spurs run Leonard/Green that's a huge offensive edge for the Spurs. Those guys may be able to sit back and drop open 3's all night. The shifts in momentum really occurred when Duncan got in foul trouble and also when Conley got in foul trouble in the first half. Overall if it is a "straight up" game I think the superior offensive execution and shooting of the Spurs wins. They can contain the big men of Memphis reasonably well and though Conley is great, Parker is still better.

If Memphis is relying on Bayless/Poindexter to shoot contested 20 footers to win they might pull out a game but they will lose the series. Memphis MUST play tight D on the Spurs to keep the game close. If not SA will get on a run and Memphis will not be able to catch up without a lot of things going their way like they had last night. The odds of the Spurs having a 9 point quarter where they get no FT's and can't make an open jumper to save their lives again are not good.
GatorAg03
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Here is good link to an article on how poindexter and bayless open up the offense like MemAg was saying:

http://www.sbnation.com/2013/5/22/4355560/grizzlies-spurs-western-conference-finals-analysis-quincy-pondexter

Again, what I think is getting overlooked is the Spurs going ice cold in that same stretch. Parker was 6-20 for the game and the Spurs couldn't buy a bucket in the 4th Qtr.

I agree the Memphis shooters caused the Spurs to adjust on defense, but I don't think you will see too many 9 point quarters from the Spurs going forward. It will ultimately lead to more offense for both teams, which plays into the Spurs strengths, IMO.
Ulrich
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quote:
Really. Read the definition you provide. "Flopping" will be defined as any physical act that appears to have been intended to cause the referees to call a foul on another player. The primary factor in determining whether a player committed a flop is whether his physical reaction to contact with another player is inconsistent with what would reasonably be expected given the force or direction of the contact.

Maybe you should read the bolding.

Even if it's not a textbook flop, it was still a bush league move.

Gator, part of the reason the Spurs went cold in the 4th is that they were settling for outside shots. Some of them weren't bad shots, but they weren't as good as they usually get. Taking an outside shot isn't the same as settling for one.

Quick example, most of the time when Green or Leonard take a three, they pass is coming out of the paint. That means their eyes and body were facing the basket all the way from catch through shot. In the 4th, a lot of the time the Spurs were never getting in the paint; the passes were coming around the perimeter. They had to look and turn away from the basket to receive the pass. The closeout was also better because the defender didn't get sucked as far into the paint. Small details, but important nonetheless.

Similarly, Parker's sweet spot is 5-10 feet inside the arc stepping into a rhythm pullup. In the 4th, Parker was taking his shots from a step or two farther back, even outside of the three point line on a couple of occasions. They were also coming off the screen on more of a curl than the usual drive and pull up, which is a tricky shot when you don't normally do it. He likes to have a full step off the screen to change his momentum and square up his shoulders. Little things.

Memphis kept them out of the paint, partly because SA and Parker were tired, partly because they stepped up their defensive efficacy, and it changed the shots they were taking. Some open shots are better than others.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 5/22/2013 3:00p).]
Ganondorf
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I'll agree with the Memphis guys and switching out their offensive liability players for guys who can score is a good thing for them. Obviously the defensive minded guys will come back in in spells but Memphis realizes they have to score more against this SA team.
Enzo The Baker
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I'm not too mad with what Allen did. He just did what he did within the confines of the game. It sucks that the league rewards players for something like that, but they do. It's exactly the reason why you see so many dives in soccer. As long as they reward it, things like this will happen. But I still do think Manu did the right thing. Just unfortunate the refs didn't rule in our favor.
Iowaggie
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I thought the Bonner v ZBo jump ball was some pretty good humor.

Ulrich
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Matt Bonner 6'10
Zach Randolph 6'9
Combined vertical leap 16 inches
Ball first touched 6' from the floor
sharkenleo
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Personally my favorite part of that gif is how the ref flinches backwards.
Deputy Travis Junior
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The Onion loves writing stories on Duncan.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/tim-duncan-encourages-teammates-to-be-fathers-firs,32575/

SAN ANTONIO—In an effort to inspire the team before Game 3 of the Western Conference Finals, Spurs captain Tim Duncan reportedly reminded his teammates Friday to always put their duties as fathers before their jobs as basketball players. “What you do on this court is nothing compared to what you do at home for your children,” said Duncan, adding that what this country lacks most is not basketball players but mature men. “The playoffs end in June, but the responsibilities of fatherhood? Those are year-round. Guys, it doesn’t matter if you score 10,000 points or win three NBA championships—spending time with your kids: that’s the championship. This is just a game, after all.” Duncan then referred his teammates to a study showing that children with absent fathers were more likely to have behavioral problems than those whose fathers were present and involved in their lives.
beerad12man
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quote:
quote:
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And the spurs had multiple chances to blow you out down the stretch. What's your point?
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Why the antagonism? You want credit...GREAT JOB SPURS!!!


Edit to remove insult but I still don't understand the need for the retort beerad, I'm just a guy pulling for his team and dismayed that we left chances on the floor to maybe get a win. I'm not here to suck off the Spurs or analyze their play, that's you and other Spurs fans' job.




Just saw this. Talk about an overreaction. And I didn't even see the insult. You said your team had chances. I said mine had even more to make it even worse.
Goodnight Irene
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m.yahoo.com/w/sports/nba/news/article?urn=09e3ada1-1bb7-3657-9c54-8d4131b70a50&.ts=1369436911&.intl=US&.lang=en


tony Allen fined for flopping after all. from yahoo sports. is this new?

[This message has been edited by Goodnight Irene (edited 5/24/2013 6:13p).]
Guitarsoup
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It is new and not at all unexpected.

The refs should be fined for falling for the flop even after they had the benefit of instant replay.

quote:
Tony Allens play wasn't a flop.


Sorry, Iowa! The NBA and the rest of the world thinks differently.

Mikejones1
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Timmah and his wife are getting divorced. **** just came out publicly. I hope it doesn't affect his play. Wonder if a certain teammate slept with his wife and that's why they are ending it...
Guitarsoup
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Amy Duncan filed for divorce two months ago. Probably nothing new that is going to really distract him.

Duncan averaged 20/11/2.7 over March and April.
Ganondorf
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I love Onion articles on Duncan.
 
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