What I don't understand among the 26 public ballots so far are the two voters that gave Manny, a player that FAILED two drug tests, a vote, but decided not to vote for either Bonds or Clemens, both of who, despite overwhelming evidence for PEDs, never failed a test.

I think they should audit guys ballots and revoke anyone who does BS stuff like voting for Manny but not Bonds. I can understand not voting for either because of PEDs, but if you're going to vote for Manny you're saying you don't care about PEDs. If you don't care about PEDs, then Barry Bonds is a top 5 player of all time.

Yeah, there are definitely some screwy ballots. When I see Pudge left off a ballot, but McGriff or Posada receiving a vote, it blows my mind. It's such an odd system.

Here's the thing about the HoF. You dont need 75% of the vote. Its closer to 80-85%% of the actual real ballots. The 5-8% of stupid votes that are wasted on crap like Manny the female hormone user or "I'm not voting anyone first ballot" or "Its my vote and I will leave it blank in protest" mean you really have to get more than 75% of the actual well thought out votes.

37 Ballots Received
Jeff Bagwell (33 - 89%)
Tim Raines (33- 89%)
Pudge Rodriguez (30 - 81%)
Trevor Hoffman (29 - 78%)
Vladimir Guerrero (26 - 70%)
Barry Bonds (25 - 68%)
Roger Clemens (25 - 68%)
Edgar Martinez (23 - 62%)
Mike Mussina (22- 59%)

RetiredAg said:

---

37 Ballots Received
Jeff Bagwell (33 - 89%) +1
Tim Raines (33- 89%) +4
Pudge Rodriguez (30 - 81%)
Trevor Hoffman (29 - 78%) +0
Vladimir Guerrero (26 - 70%)
Barry Bonds (25 - 68%) +4
Roger Clemens (25 - 68%) +4
Edgar Martinez (23 - 62%) +5
Mike Mussina (22- 59%) +2

---

A lot guys picking up ballots early.

Just doesn't make sense to me. How do you vote Piazza, but not Pudge? They both had 1st ballot resumes. Neither is more "suspect" than the other w/ regards to PEDs.

The 37th ballot (Kevin Cooney):
Bagwell
Bonds
Clemens
Vlad
Hoffman
Mussina
Raines
Schilling
Lee Smith
Wagner

Another head scratcher. Clearly the PED issue isn't an issue for this voter (Bonds/Clemens). Clearly he has no objection to voting for a 1st ballot guy (Vlad). Yet no Pudge?

His twitter response did say that if he had 12 spots, he would have included Martinez and Pudge.

Mr.Ackar07 said:

---

His twitter response did say that if he had 12 spots, he would have included Martinez and Pudge.

---

I'm curious what criteria he used. What criteria could result in Lee Smith or Billy Wagner getting in, but not Pudge?

Of course, there are countless quirky ballots like this. I'm sure he has his reasons, and I'm sure I'd disagree with them.

Kind of like the 3 guys that didn't have Griffey on their ballot. Those guys should have the voting rights taken away. The argument that "x guy doesn't need my vote to get in, so I'm voting for someone else" is incredibly stupid.

RetiredAg said:

---

Just doesn't make sense to me. How do you vote Piazza, but not Pudge? They both had 1st ballot resumes. Neither is more "suspect" than the other w/ regards to PEDs.

---

They must weight hitting more. Or at least are anti first ballot.

LeFraud said:

---

Kind of like the 3 guys that didn't have Griffey on their ballot. Those guys should have the voting rights taken away. The argument that "x guy doesn't need my vote to get in, so I'm voting for someone else" is incredibly stupid.

---

I don't mind this as much. Remove the limit and things like this wouldn't happen. If a writer feels like 12 guys are worthy, let him vote for 12.

I don't want the writers having more freedom. Here's a list of guys voters have found "worthy" of a vote:

Brad Radke
Jay Bell
Jacque Jones
Armando Benetiz
Kevin Appier

I personally think it's a travesty if Bonds, Sosa, and Clemens don't get into the HOF eventually.

I just don't get the support for Sosa. At least Bonds and Clemens looked like Hall of Famers before being linked to steroids. To me, Sosa's case for the hall is solely based on him cheating. Granted, the steroid era coincided with Sosa's peak age range (Ages 27-33), but consider this: He hit 332 home runs from 1998 when many consider him to have been on steroids through 2003 when he tested positive for steroids according to the what-was-supposed-to-be-anonymous drug test performed by the MLB. That's 55% of his career home runs in a 6 year span. He hit 277 in the other 13 seasons (2 were short seasons) he played.

If you look at Baseball Reference, his similar players by age shot from players like Chili Davis, Jay Bruce, and Jimmy Wynn to Jose Canseco and Ken Griffey Jr. during that stretch.


If you wanted to look at games played instead of seasons, he hit 332 home runs during a span of 40% of the games he played in his career.

Agree completely. I've never been big on Sosa or McGwire as HOFers. Really just one trick ponies and it took PEDs to make that "one trick" even get them into the conversation. They are basically Adam Dunn on steroids. Good sluggers, but just doesn't move the needle with me.

On a side note, I think it's hilarious that Sosa's Baseball Reference profile has him listed at 6ft 165lbs.

Adam Dunn is a HOF to me. Dude may have struck out, but he masked as well as anyone.

If we ignore roids then Sosa is too easily.

Mark Newman's HOF vote breakdown: http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/210988244/baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-2017-bonds-raines

Pretty good write-up.

Still irritated about the hat Nolan is wearing in the hall of fame

Mr.Bond said:

---

Still irritated about the hat Nolan is wearing in the hall of fame

---

What? This one? I think it looks great!

aggie1906 said:

---

That is like Clemens going in as an Astro or Pujos going in as in Angel. Just wrong.

---

There's a huge difference. I think if you ask the average baseball fan which team they associate w/ Ryan, I would imagine the Rangers will come out on top. I'd be curious if an actual poll was done on this though. I did find this site that had a non-scientific poll on the question: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=557508

The fact that he got his 300th win, 5,000th K, 6th and 7th no-hitters and the famous Ventura brawl is probably whey I'd think he's more linked to the Rangers. I don't think any fan is going to link Clemens to the Astros or Pujols to the Angels.

RetiredAg said:

---

aggie1906 said:

---

That is like Clemens going in as an Astro or Pujos going in as in Angel. Just wrong.

---

There's a huge difference. I think if you ask the average baseball fan which team they associate w/ Ryan, I would imagine the Rangers will come out on top. I'd be curious if an actual poll was done on this though. I did find this site that had a non-scientific poll on the question: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=557508

The fact that he got his 300th win, 5,000th K, 6th and 7th no-hitters and the famous Ventura brawl is probably whey I'd think he's more linked to the Rangers. I don't think any fan is going to link Clemens to the Astros or Pujols to the Angels.

---

Anyone who watched him play the bulk of his career for Cali or Houston would not. He had 4 no hitters & over 2400 Ks as an Angel. Rangers should have been the 3rd option.

aggie1906 said:

---

RetiredAg said:

---

aggie1906 said:

---

That is like Clemens going in as an Astro or Pujos going in as in Angel. Just wrong.

---

There's a huge difference. I think if you ask the average baseball fan which team they associate w/ Ryan, I would imagine the Rangers will come out on top. I'd be curious if an actual poll was done on this though. I did find this site that had a non-scientific poll on the question: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=557508

The fact that he got his 300th win, 5,000th K, 6th and 7th no-hitters and the famous Ventura brawl is probably whey I'd think he's more linked to the Rangers. I don't think any fan is going to link Clemens to the Astros or Pujols to the Angels.

---

Anyone who watched him play the bulk of his career for Cali or Houston would not. He had 4 no hitters & over 2400 Ks as an Angel. Rangers should have been the 3rd option.

---

I still believe that most fans will associate him w/ the Rangers. You may not like it, and it may be due to recency bias or the fact that he had so many key milestones in a Rangers uniform, but that's the way it is. You can claim the Rangers should have been a 3rd option, but it seems like your gripe is with Nolan on that, as he clearly had them as his first option.

Moot point though. He chose the Rangers for his plaque, and it looks beautiful.

RetiredAg said:

---

aggie1906 said:

---

RetiredAg said:

---

aggie1906 said:

---

That is like Clemens going in as an Astro or Pujos going in as in Angel. Just wrong.

---

There's a huge difference. I think if you ask the average baseball fan which team they associate w/ Ryan, I would imagine the Rangers will come out on top. I'd be curious if an actual poll was done on this though. I did find this site that had a non-scientific poll on the question: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=557508

The fact that he got his 300th win, 5,000th K, 6th and 7th no-hitters and the famous Ventura brawl is probably whey I'd think he's more linked to the Rangers. I don't think any fan is going to link Clemens to the Astros or Pujols to the Angels.

---

Anyone who watched him play the bulk of his career for Cali or Houston would not. He had 4 no hitters & over 2400 Ks as an Angel. Rangers should have been the 3rd option.

---

I still believe that most fans will associate him w/ the Rangers. You may not like it, and it may be due to recency bias or the fact that he had so many key milestones in a Rangers uniform, but that's the way it is. You can claim the Rangers should have been a 3rd option, but it seems like your gripe is with Nolan on that, as he clearly had them as his first option.

Moot point though. He chose the Rangers for his plaque, and it looks beautiful.

---

Keyword is had.

aggie1906 said:

---

RetiredAg said:

---

aggie1906 said:

---

RetiredAg said:

---

aggie1906 said:

---

That is like Clemens going in as an Astro or Pujos going in as in Angel. Just wrong.

---

There's a huge difference. I think if you ask the average baseball fan which team they associate w/ Ryan, I would imagine the Rangers will come out on top. I'd be curious if an actual poll was done on this though. I did find this site that had a non-scientific poll on the question: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=557508

The fact that he got his 300th win, 5,000th K, 6th and 7th no-hitters and the famous Ventura brawl is probably whey I'd think he's more linked to the Rangers. I don't think any fan is going to link Clemens to the Astros or Pujols to the Angels.

---

Anyone who watched him play the bulk of his career for Cali or Houston would not. He had 4 no hitters & over 2400 Ks as an Angel. Rangers should have been the 3rd option.

---

I still believe that most fans will associate him w/ the Rangers. You may not like it, and it may be due to recency bias or the fact that he had so many key milestones in a Rangers uniform, but that's the way it is. You can claim the Rangers should have been a 3rd option, but it seems like your gripe is with Nolan on that, as he clearly had them as his first option.

Moot point though. He chose the Rangers for his plaque, and it looks beautiful.

---

Keyword is had.

---

Yes, that is the keyword because the decision was made in the past so the past tense should be used. As much as it pains Astros fans, he chose the Rangers when the choice mattered. If you want to simply go by performance though, he'd be wearing an Angels hat. But, rightly so, the choice belonged to the player at the time.

The only reason Nolan left the Astros was because the owner was a dumbass. If you want to place blame for Nolan wearing a Rangers hat, blame John McMullen. Nolan would have finished out his career in Houston if it weren't for McMullen. That rift is what likely led to Nolan's hat choice, as well.

Is this the worst public ballot so far?

Mr.Ackar07 said:

---

Is this the worst public ballot so far?

---

Someone like that has no business voting for the HOF. That's ridiculous.

Last year Marcus voted for Griffey and Hoffman. He's consistent. A tool, but a consistent one.

48 Ballots Received
Jeff Bagwell (43 - 90%)
Tim Raines (42- 88%)
Pudge Rodriguez (39 - 81%)
Vladimir Guerrero (36 - 75%)
Trevor Hoffman (35 - 73%)
Barry Bonds (34 - 71%)
Roger Clemens (34 - 71%)
Edgar Martinez (31 - 65%)
Mike Mussina (29- 60%)

There's a huge drop-off after Mussina, with Schilling coming in next at 50%. Bonds/Clemens are looking strong and Vlad passed up Hoffman. A dream class would be Pudge, Bonds, Clemens, Vlad, Bagwell and Raines.

Sounds like Schill killed his chances of ever getting in.

That tweet is in reference to the below.

I wonder what changed in most people's eyes for Edgar?

He was at ~43% last year and he's already picked up 9 new votes (lost 1).

I hate that Bagwell didn't get in last year in such a small class. Looks like this year could be loaded and he would obviously be overshadowed