If that's their reasoning then I can agree that he's not elite of the elite.

The only people on the ballot that are IMO are Bonds & Clemens.

Except by that logic:

Frank Thomas is the elite of the elite.

Paul Molitor is the elite of the elite.

Tom Glavine is the elite of the elite.


Yet Pudge Rodriguez, who is arguably one of the greatest catchers of all-time (and at least Top 3 on practically anybody who matters list) isn't the elite of the elite.



It's rather silly.

free_mhayden said:

---

Except by that logic:

Frank Thomas is the elite of the elite.

Paul Molitor is the elite of the elite.

Tom Glavine is the elite of the elite.


Yet Pudge Rodriguez, who is arguably one of the greatest catchers of all-time (and at least Top 3 on practically anybody who matters list) isn't the elite of the elite.



It's rather silly.

---

I agree it is silly and I wouldn't call any of them elite of elite.

"elite of elite" is difficult to define because of the era the players played in.

Anyone before 1970 has this sense of nostalgia about them that you tend to view them as "the greats".

Hell even guys like Joe Morgan and Robin Yount... First ballot hall of famers... But you ask me if I'd start a team with one of them or Mike Trout and I'd pick Trout every time.

Another 21 ballots:

193 Ballots Received (44.4%)
Tim Raines (177 - 91.7%) +25 (20)
Jeff Bagwell (175 - 90.79%) +16 (12)
Pudge Rodriguez (155 - 80.3%)
Vladimir Guerrero (143 - 74.1%)
Trevor Hoffman (142 - 73.6%) +17 (38)
Edgar Martinez (129 - 66.8%) +30 (137)
Barry Bonds (124 - 64.2%) +20 (134)
Roger Clemens (123 - 63.7%) +21 (130)

My gut tells me it's going to be a 2-man class.

Clearly has no objection to PEDs (Bonds/Clemens/Manny), or 1st ballot (Vlad/Posada/Manny), yet leaves Pudge off the ballot w/ 3 spots left.

Just makes zero sense. Looks like a Toronto-based voter. Surely he wouldn't leave Pudge off because the Jays/Rangers past run-ins, right? (No, I don't really think that's the reason, btw)

What's a logical solution to get rid of voters like this guy?

Can/should the players association (or some other organization) create their own hall of fame and tell cooperstown and these writers to go **** themselves?

I don't mind any of the writer's votes as long as they are public. I don't necessarily agree with many of them, but part of the point of allowing writers a vote is that they often follow the team/player and get more of an insight as to whether they handle themselves in a way that is worth of the Hall.

But I feel like the votes should all be public so if/when a writer takes a stand on someone, they have to explain that stance or the reading public can decide to ignore their insight as a writer if they aren't willing to "back up" their work.

This is the last year that they can vote anonymously.

LeFraud said:

---

What's a logical solution to get rid of voters like this guy?

Can/should the players association (or some other organization) create their own hall of fame and tell cooperstown and these writers to go **** themselves?

---

To me, the only possible alternative would be for the HOF to simply have a panel select the inductees. Or maybe have some combination of writer/current players voting.

One interesting note on Vlad. So far, 7 anonymous ballots have been released. He's been on all 7 of them.

On Anonymous Ballots:
Vlad - 100%
Bagwell - 85.7%
Hoffman - 85.7%
Pudge - 57.1%
Bonds - 57.1%
Clemens - 57.1%
Raines - 57.1%
Martinez - 42.9%

Granted, it's a very small sample size, but just something to consider as I would imagine anonymous ballots will tend to be somewhat similar to unreported ones.

If you're right then that's terrible news for Pudge.

aggie1906 said:

---

If you're right then that's terrible news for Pudge.

---

Agreed, although it's a terribly small sample size so I'm not sure how much can be extrapolated from it. It wouldn't surprise me, at this point, if we have a 3 person class with Vlad as the 3rd.

Saw this today and thought it was an interesting note:

Vlad was a really good player and is in the hall of fame conversation, but I am having hard time figuring out how he is getting so much love in his first year of eligibility when so many other deserving candidates often struggle. Some of the ballots that include known steroid guys like Clemens and Bonds and then include Vlad but leave off Bagwell or Pudge make absolutely no sense. Vlad's career WAR was 59.3, while Bagwell's was 79.6 and Pudge's was 68.4. Vlad was not on their level.

Vlad isn't viewed as a user & was a fan favorite. Seems simple, but I think that's it.

I was surprised how unimpressive his #s were because my first thought was he's easily in.

RetiredAg said:

---

aggie1906 said:

---

If you're right then that's terrible news for Pudge.

---

Agreed, although it's a terribly small sample size so I'm not sure how much can be extrapolated from it. It wouldn't surprise me, at this point, if we have a 3 person class with Vlad as the 3rd.

---

I would not be shocked to see Bagwell, Raines and Hoffmann. Closers for some strange reason get a bump on anonymous ballots.

aggie1906 said:

---

Vlad isn't viewed as a user & was a fan favorite. Seems simple, but I think that's it.

I was surprised how unimpressive his #s were because my first thought was he's easily in.

---

The user angle I understand, but I do not understand when other users or suspected users were included on a ballot and Vlad is included but Bagwell and/or Pudge are not.

Its the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Statistically All-Around or whatever.

Vlad is one of the all-time, top 30-35 or so, sluggers and his arm was very impressive, too. On top of that, he was a guy we all looked forward to coming to town even though we knew he might pop a trash pitch for a game winning home run or throw a guy out trying to stretch out a late-inning run. In fact, you kind of expected it and weren't all that mad about it if it happened. He was just uniquely awesome to watch.

Certainly a guy I remember very well, a guy I'll always remember well, and well-deserving of the Hall of Fame in my mind.

Again, I am not saying that Vlad is not deserving, just that I do not understand how he gets a vote and Bagwell or Pudge do not. Baseball is a sport that places a lot of emphasis on statistics so statistics are certainly relevant. Pudge had an incredible arm and is likely one of the top catchers of all time, and Bagwell is in the top 10 (or in a lot of people's belief top 5 or 6) first baseman of all time (which historically is a very high quality position).

And I didn't say statistics aren't very relevant. Vlad has great statistics. Very similar to Bagwell and certainly the raw numbers are well above what Pudge did. Of course that comparison to/from catchers is difficult to make.

I can understand the frustration if you're a Houstonian---great player, deserving too---but Vlad has that special style and connection with the fans and that's probably a big reason why many people look to Vlad before they look to Bagwell.

Both will get their day.

aggie1906 said:

---

Vlad isn't viewed as a user & was a fan favorite. Seems simple, but I think that's it.

I was surprised how unimpressive his #s were because my first thought was he's easily in.

---

I wouldn't say "unimpressive"? His numbers are pretty comparable to Bagwell's. They both have an MVP award. Both in top-10 of MVP voting 6 times. Plus he has a historically elite arm.

Vlad:
BA: .319
RBI: 1496
HR: 449
OPS: .931
OPS+: 140

Bagwell:
BA: .297
RBI: 1529
HR: 449
OPS: .948
OPS+: 149

In fact, on his "Similarity Scores" on baseball reference, Bagwell is the 2nd name listed on Vlad's and Vlad is the 5th listed on Bagwell's. I'd say they both have extremely impressive numbers. Now, I can get some frustration, given the similarities, that Bagwell has had to wait as long as he has whereas Vlad looks to get in on his 1st or 2nd ballot.

I think Vlad never got the credit he deserved because he spent the bulk of his career in the same league as Bonds and/or Pujols. His '02 season is a great example: .336 BA, 39 HR, 111 RBI, 40 SB, 1.010 OPS, and finished 4th in the MVP voting w/ Bonds and Pujols in the top 2 spots.

rosco511 said:

---

Again, I am not saying that Vlad is not deserving, just that I do not understand how he gets a vote and Bagwell or Pudge do not. Baseball is a sport that places a lot of emphasis on statistics so statistics are certainly relevant. Pudge had an incredible arm and is likely one of the top catchers of all time, and Bagwell is in the top 10 (or in a lot of people's belief top 5 or 6) first baseman of all time (which historically is a very high quality position).

---

I agree that some of these votes make no sense whatsoever.

As a lifelong baseball fan, I would say that Andre Dawson is the closest player I saw to Vlad Guerrero. Hawk was a better fielder according to his 8 GG's, but both had the cannon arms. Hawk stole more bases, too. Vlad, however, had a huge OPS advantage (.933 to .806) and 39 point higher BA (.318 to .279), despite Hawk playing in Wrigley. And consider this for Vlad - 449 HR, only 985 strikeouts. By comparison, both Adrian Beltre and Hawk had > 1500, and most people would consider Beltre to be tough to strike out for a power hitter.

Both were highly entertaining. Vlad belongs in the Hall.

Yeah, Vlad's K numbers blew me away when I was looking at his stats. The guy was such a free swinger, but never struck out over 100 times in a season, and averaged just over 61 Ks a season. He also drew the 5th most intentional walks in history.

Just never seemed to get the respect he deserved, but that tends to be the case with many players that have English as a second language, as they are simply harder to market to the masses.

RetiredAg said:

---

aggie1906 said:

---

Vlad isn't viewed as a user & was a fan favorite. Seems simple, but I think that's it.

I was surprised how unimpressive his #s were because my first thought was he's easily in.

---

I wouldn't say "unimpressive"? His numbers are pretty comparable to Bagwell's. They both have an MVP award. Both in top-10 of MVP voting 6 times. Plus he has a historically elite arm.

Vlad:
BA: .319
RBI: 1496
HR: 449
OPS: .931
OPS+: 140

Bagwell:
BA: .297
RBI: 1529
HR: 449
OPS: .948
OPS+: 149

In fact, on his "Similarity Scores" on baseball reference, Bagwell is the 2nd name listed on Vlad's and Vlad is the 5th listed on Bagwell's. I'd say they both have extremely impressive numbers. Now, I can get some frustration, given the similarities, that Bagwell has had to wait as long as he has whereas Vlad looks to get in on his 1st or 2nd ballot.

I think Vlad never got the credit he deserved because he spent the bulk of his career in the same league as Bonds and/or Pujols. His '02 season is a great example: .336 BA, 39 HR, 111 RBI, 40 SB, 1.010 OPS, and finished 4th in the MVP voting w/ Bonds and Pujols in the top 2 spots.

---

Let me rephrase that. His number are not unimpressive.

In my mind he was a sure fire HOF lock. When I actually sat down and looked at his #s they failed to meet what I expected. That is what I meant by unimpressive.

EX:
Missed 1500 RBIs
NO where near 3000 hits
Career .931 OPS while great its behind some guys I thought he might had had higher than including Bagwell, Walker, Berkman, Thome, Thomas, Manny, Helton, Edgar, etc.

He's still in IMO, but I can see how its not a first ballot lock. Then again there are a few guys I would have in that likely aren't going to make it. I guess I value different things than most voters.

Quote:

---

Let me rephrase that. His number are not unimpressive.

In my mind he was a sure fire HOF lock. When I actually sat down and looked at his #s they failed to meet what I expected. That is what I meant by unimpressive.

EX:
Missed 1500 RBIs
NO where near 3000 hits
Career .931 OPS while great its behind some guys I thought he might had had higher than including Bagwell, Walker, Berkman, Thome, Thomas, Manny, Helton, Edgar, etc.

He's still in IMO, but I can see how its not a first ballot lock. Then again there are a few guys I would have in that likely aren't going to make it. I guess I value different things than most voters.

---

Thanks for the clarification, and I see what you are saying. I think his OPS suffers because he just didn't draw a lot of walks. He drew over 70 walks in a season only twice, while Bagwell did it 12 times (including 7 straight seasons over 100). Like you, I was surprised at his OPS, but it looks to be a product of the approach he took at the plate. What impresses me so much about his free-swinging approach that resulted in few walks is the fact that he so rarely struck out.

But yes, I can also see why he's not a first ballot lock. If the "first ballot" designation were something I was big about, I wouldn't put him in this year. I kind of see him as very similar cases to Walker and Edgar. Are they "elite of the elite"? No. Are they HOF worthy? Yes.

If Vlad can get himself listed on the next 2 ballots (#199 & 200), he will be back to 75%

If Pudge can do the same, he will be back to 80%

Another WTF ballot. Someone named Peter Kersotis. Punched the chad for Vlad, Hoffman, Kent, Edgar, McGriff, Mussina, Raines and Shilling.

That's the ballot of a man who has decided he knows who did 'roids. He's not sharing what he knows, but he knows.

ESPN voters just released their ballots together, although I think some had already previously released. 17 total voters at ESPN. Here's the breakdown:

Raines - 16
Edgar Martinez - 15
Vlad - 15
Bagwell - 14
Hoffman - 13
Bonds - 13
Clemens - 13
Pudge - 12
Mussina - 12
Schilling - 7
Lee Smith - 6
Manny - 5
McGriff - 3
Kent - 3
Sosa - 3
Wagner - 2
Posada - 1

Was a rough weekend for Pudge, but how he ends up w/ fewer votes 7 other players on the ballot is beyond me.

Not to mention another Posada but no Pudge vote.

I f****** hate Pedro Gomez. He voted for Hoffman, Mussina, Lee Smith and McGriff. Said he won't vote for Bagwell because he thinks he took steroids.

StEdsCOOG said:

---

I f****** hate Pedro Gomez. He voted for Hoffman, Mussina, Lee Smith and McGriff. Said he won't vote for Bagwell because he thinks he took steroids.

---

You know, I can at least understand if you refuse to vote for someone that's tested positive or was mentioned in the Mitchell Report. But arbitrarily choosing which ones you think did, or did not, use PEDs without any substantive evidence is foolish. I want to ask people like Gomez how do he know Hoffman, Mussina, Smith or McGriff didn't use? I mean, even Andy Pettite had the HGH issue. Nobody would have suspected him until that came out.

mathguy86 said:

---

Baseball writers in general are idiots. Take Tim Raines. 9 years of not being elected. Ok. If you don't think he's a HoFer that's fine. Don't vote for him. So for 9 years he's below 75% and up until last year he's in the 40s and 50s. But in year 10 he's suddenly at 90+%. Where did the extra 15% this year come from? In 2 years I bet he's jumped 30%. That's a massive late jump. He retired 15 years so. Some of these new voters would have never seen him play

---

This is why the HOF voting is utterly ******ed. Been saying it for years. Makes no ****ing sense that a dude is all the sudden a hall of famer after 9 years of not being remotely close.