*****The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power*****

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chase128
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In reply to KCup17 • 3:32p, 9/29/22
AG
KCup17 said:
powerbelly said:
KCup17 said:
I'm pretty sure you're right. Morgoth (or Melkor) made the Orcs.
Yep. The question that Tolkien never settled is exactly how Morgoth created them.
I've heard and read various things. One I have heard is that he captured Elves and transformed them by means of torture and other crafts into Orcs.
Corruption of the elves by Morgoth to make orcs was the version Christopher went with for the Silmarillion. Ents were corrupted to make trolls, as well.

Tolkien struggled with this corruption idea as he got older and his struggles with it are noted in the History of Middle-earth.

- Morgoth shouldn't have the ability to "create". He was always seeking the Flame Imperishable, which only Eru had, for the creation abilities it contained. Thus, Tokien didn't want orcs to be just created by Morgoth but....
- If Morgoth corrupted elves to make orcs, were orcs "immortal" in the same way as elves? Or did somehow Morgoth have the ability to strip that? I don't think he liked the idea of Morgoth being able to alter an elf's "fea" or spirit.

These two ideas Tolkien had were in conflict with each other and it bothered the heck out of him.
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Faustus
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3:37p, 9/29/22
I can see why the orcs have father issues then too.
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PatAg
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In reply to Maximus_Meridius • 4:00p, 9/29/22
AG
Maximus_Meridius said:
Beat40 said:
One small note: the writers for this show cannot source from The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales.

I get frustrations, but you're holding them to a standard they cannot achieve because of limitations from the Tolkien Estate.

That's part of the issue - the Tolkien estate doesn't want to work with anyone that wants to tell these stories. They didn't even really like the Peter Jackson LOTR movies.

I'm taking about this show alone, not the rest of Hollywood.
Yeah, we've noted that before, and I do try to keep that in mind.

That being said, that's one of my biggest beefs with the show. Look, you can't tell Galadriel's story as written in the books. You can't tell Elrond's story as in the books. But you CAN use the amazingly beautiful world that Tolkien created, along with the foundations laid by Jackson and co. to tell stories that are in this world without requiring those specific storylines. Look at Arondir. PERFECT example of what they should have focused on doing. And if you just HAVE to have those big name characters, a cameo here and there wouldn't twist too many knickers out of shape. This way you have much more freedom to tell a story without the purists being all "GALADRIEL DIDN'T BEHAVE THIS WAY" or "THIS IS COMPLETELY OUT OF ORDER!!!"

I'm enjoying the show (for the most part), and I've been somewhat successful at keeping my brain from losing its marbles over the differences between this and the books. My biggest gripe really has more to do with how they're going about certain things than anything else.
I'm going to reply without reading the rest of the thread.
I don't think you can tell this story without including the primary characters from the time period. I agree that Arondir's character and story works very well, but I dont think it would if we just had a show full of them.
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PatAg
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4:05p, 9/29/22
AG
I've seen/heard Galadriel drawing some ire, which I understand the gripe of how she is written. Being more "im angry all the time" I can understand havinge a grievance with, but I will disagree with anyone saying the actress is doing a bad job. I think she is delivering a great performance so far.
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Lathspell
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In reply to PatAg • 6:04p, 9/29/22
AG
PatAg said:
I've seen/heard Galadriel drawing some ire, which I understand the gripe of how she is written. Being more "im angry all the time" I can understand havinge a grievance with, but I will disagree with anyone saying the actress is doing a bad job. I think she is delivering a great performance so far.
Her closed mouthed, nearly hissing, delivery of her lines is very annoying, to me. She needs to open her damn mouth when speaking. It's also not just that she's angry; I could wholly accept a righteously angry Galadriel. It's that she is presented as having the emotional maturity and wisdom of a 20-year-old woman.

Galadriel is literally centuries, if not millennia, old. She should be as wise and in control now, as she is in the 3rd age. Do I like the Xena makeover of her being a warrior? Not really. I prefer her power to be more mystical/magical and in statecraft, persuasion, and manipulation. But I can accept the fact she is a great fighter.

However, contrasting that with the complete ineptitude of her party of elves in episode one, was comical. You're telling me that this small group of elves, who I am assuming are her elites and have been fighting for over a thousand years, just get wrecked by a raging ice troll, and then Galadriel comes floating by and just dispatches it like it's nothing? That was stupid.

Same thing bothered me when comparing to the Numenoreans. I get that they are younger recruits, but is Numenor just filled with 18-22 year old troops who don't know how to fight? That completely takes away how impressive Numenoreans are supposed to be. These are humans who are blessed by the Valar and are supposed to be great warriors. Aragorn and the Dunedain are watered down descendants of these people, and they are shown to be nearly unstoppable warriors.

I will say it again, Elendil is the best character in the show, so far. He is the ONLY Numenorean that actually feels like one. I would follow him up with Arondir, though I still hate how random he is. Not hard to create a better backstory.
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Madmarttigan
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10:41p, 9/29/22
AG
Damian Lewis gets away with never opening his mouth
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AgE2theBONE
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12:17a, 9/30/22
AG

Well I thought that episode was fantastic, despite how telegraphed the switcharoo was.
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redline248
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12:20a, 9/30/22
AG
I have to say I find it a bit suspect that we had a "theory" this week that is just about exactly what happened.
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redline248
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12:25a, 9/30/22
AG
I do like the little touch of Galadriel talking about humility to Isildur, and then getting a nice helping of it, herself, at the end.
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CondensedFogAggie
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12:35a, 9/30/22

Really really great episode, was thoroughly entertained.

Also, the show itself acknowledges how single mindedly driven, uncompromising, and even dark, Galadriel is.

"...it would seem I am not the only one alive who has been transformed by the darkness.

Perhaps your search for Morgoth's successor should have ended in your own mirror"

What a line. And the delivery was perfect.
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TCTTS
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1:12a, 9/30/22
AG
What an episode, up there with the best of any show this year. Almost like a mini Helm's Deep, with all kinds of great twists and turns that I genuinely didn't see coming. And then to tie it all to the inception of something so iconic at the end - Mount Doom - man, that was something.

Yes, it's a little ridiculous that neither Galadriel nor Arondir thought to unwrap the blade, but I chalk that up to arrogance/distraction/celebration more than anything. It was still totally worth it for those final incredible moments.
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TCTTS
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In reply to CondensedFogAggie • 1:27a, 9/30/22
AG
CondensedFogAggie said:

Really really great episode, was thoroughly entertained.

Also, the show itself acknowledges how single mindedly driven, uncompromising, and even dark, Galadriel is.

"...it would seem I am not the only one alive who has been transformed by the darkness.

Perhaps your search for Morgoth's successor should have ended in your own mirror"

What a line. And the delivery was perfect.

This. What an incredible couple of lines. The entire point is that she's been blinded/transformed by rage. Despite her age and her wisdom, even someone like Galadriel can be led astray. Her "driven, uncompromising, and even dark" turn, in addition to seemingly "having the emotional maturity and wisdom of a 20-year-old-woman" is the result of the very theme of the entire franchise at work. Whether it's a ring or revenge, we can't succumb to the pursuit of power/revenge, and it takes having friends, be them Samwise or Halbrand, to pull us back from the brink and keep us on the right path.

I don't know, it's always so weird to me when people complain about a character's character flaws, when the entire reason the vast majority of stories are told is to see a character overcome their flaws for the better. And that's exactly what we're watching Galadriel do, albeit still in the early stages.
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PatAg
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In reply to Lathspell • 4:04a, 9/30/22
AG
Not reading all that
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redline248
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8:28a, 9/30/22
AG
I can't wait to start discussing some of this episode, once more people see it
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Maximus_Meridius
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9:05a, 9/30/22
AG


I swear, anyone complains about THAT episode...you need to reevaluate some things. As said, yes the blade switcheroo was telegraphed about as clearly as you could get, but still...that the tunnels were all being used for this purpose was something I didn't catch at ALL.

Whatever shortcomings this show may have, they really knocked it out of the park with this one.
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FightinTexasAg15
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9:09a, 9/30/22
AG
DAMN!!! Now that's a freaking episode!!! Yeah I think everyone saw that switch coming, but that was an amazing episode. Hands down best yet. I was on the edge of my seat the whole time. The cinematography and score were on point too.
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chase128
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9:10a, 9/30/22
AG
That was probably the best episode thus far. Overall, the series is hovering around a 7.0/10 for me.

I really liked Adar giving Galadriel some humble pie, she needs it. Adar knows something is up with Halbrand.

The battle for the southlands seemed pretty small scale in the end. Here's your king, he can be king of one whole village yay.

Kudos to whoever predicted the sword creating/unlocking Mount Doom. Nice call there. That was a really cool scene.

I'm interested to see what happens next week, it looks like we're going to get more dwarves and hobbits. I'm guessing they'll see Mount Doom in the distance? The mythril storyline with the elves needing it to survive is still my main nerdy gripe with the storylines presented in this show. Maybe they'll flesh it out more next episode and it won't bother me as much.
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KCup17
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In reply to chase128 • 9:46a, 9/30/22
AG
I guess a way to explain it away is that Morgoth isn't creating another race per se but corrupting them into something else.

Half-elfs aren't immortal are they? Thats how I would assume he made the orcs by cross breeding Elves with another race or something of the like.
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Claude!
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In reply to KCup17 • 9:51a, 9/30/22
KCup17 said:
I guess a way to explain it away is that Morgoth isn't creating another race per se but corrupting them into something else.

Half-elfs aren't immortal are they? Thats how I would assume he made the orcs by cross breeding Elves with another race or something of the like.
The children of Men and Elves at some point choose. Elrond chose to be an Elf and therefore is immortal, ultimately taking passage to Valinor. His brother, Elros, chose to be a Man and therefore fell under the Doom/Gift of Men; though he had an extremely long lifespan, he ultimately died and passed to wherever Men go to upon death. Before Elros died, though, he did become the first king of Numenor. So he's got that going for him, which is nice.
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chase128
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In reply to KCup17 • 9:56a, 9/30/22
AG
KCup17 said:
I guess a way to explain it away is that Morgoth isn't creating another race per se but corrupting them into something else.

Half-elfs aren't immortal are they? Thats how I would assume he made the orcs by cross breeding Elves with another race or something of the like.
Yeah, I believe Tolkien liked the idea more of Morgoth corrupting instead of creating.

I'm not sure if half-elfs are immortal or not (and I'm not referring to Elrond and Elros here, that's a different thing entirely), and I think Tolkien wasn't sure himself how to handle it. But I believe the idea of cross breeding Elves might have been considered. It's been a while since I've read parts of The History of Middle-earth that concerned the different origins of orcs that Tolkien considered.

Personally, I like the idea of Morgoth twisting, corrupting elves into orcs (which is how it was presented in the Silmarillion). The way the show is handling it, with dark elves like Adar being the progenitors of orcs/uruks, is pretty cool and a neat interpretation of the Silmarillion.

But like I said, I'm pretty sure Tolkien wasn't exactly sure about the idea of elves being so corrupted that they lose their immortality, but corrupted elf offspring....? Dunno!
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AgE2theBONE
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10:33a, 9/30/22
AG
Adar's message to Galadriel serves pretty well to address the concerns of so many about her character to this point, I think.

She'd gone off the deep end after her loss and it consumed her.

Perhaps Adar advising her to look in the mirror helps to restore her mental health.
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powerbelly
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10:44a, 9/30/22
AG
The opening scene was Home Alone: LOTR
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redline248
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In reply to AgE2theBONE • 10:51a, 9/30/22
AG
AgE2theBONE said:
Adar's message to Galadriel serves pretty well to address the concerns of so many about her character to this point, I think.

She'd gone off the deep end after her loss and it consumed her.

Perhaps Adar advising her to look in the mirror helps to restore her mental health.
That and her being utterly wrong and failing to stop him
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redline248
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11:00a, 9/30/22
AG
So 2 things into which I want to dig...

1. Adar somehow got out of the barn before the ash hit the town. Magic? Oh, and his gauntlet on the left hand always grabs my attention. Seems reminiscent of Sauron's gauntlets in LOTR.

2. He talked about turning on Sauron and killing him...and just prior we have Halbrand about to revenge kill him for whatever he did. Not that I think Halbrand is Sauron, but I thought I'd file that away.
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Maximus_Meridius
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In reply to redline248 • 11:15a, 9/30/22
AG
redline248 said:
So 2 things into which I want to dig...

1. Adar somehow got out of the barn before the ash hit the town. Magic? Oh, and his gauntlet on the left hand always grabs my attention. Seems reminiscent of Sauron's gauntlets in LOTR.

2. He talked about turning on Sauron and killing him...and just prior we have Halbrand about to revenge kill him for whatever he did. Not that I think Halbrand is Sauron, but I thought I'd file that away.
1. Plot armor.

2. Glad you brought this up. I wonder if he's using a play on words here. I have two theories in my head right now:

A) What if by saying he killed Sauron, he means he just killed that "version" of Sauron. I'm not sure if it's discussed in the appendices, but we know Sauron can take different forms (how the rings of power are formed). So maybe Adar IS Sauron, he just is a different "form" of Sauron. Basically I'm saying that Sauron "recreated" himself in a different form.

B) Maybe he's telling the truth and he did "kill" Sauron, but only because Sauron needed to take another form. We know that he was experimenting with magic and the unseen realm, so maybe this is related to that? This one kinda fits because of the very brief background we got from Adar when he meets Arondir.

At this point, I'm kinda leaning towards B, but just barely. We know Sauron's alive (obviously), so we know that most likely Adar is just playing Galadriel like a fiddle at this point.
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powerbelly
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11:21a, 9/30/22
AG
Best episode so far for me.

I really like Theo's reaction to Galadriel. It's the first time we really see someone in awe of her that I can recall.

Count me in the group that says we haven't met Sauron yet.
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DTP02
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In reply to cbr • 1:07p, 9/30/22
AG
cbr said:
Proc92 said:
Three boats bringing an army?
Yeah, the sense of scale is a bit torqued.

Im enjoying it anyway, though the mithril deal seems like a really cheap take.

And a pretty major logic fail. I mean 'oh look, we just figured out we need to mine this **** or we all die all of a sudden, for no particular reason now, after 4 gazillion years of drinking wine and making fancy knives without it.

Oh, ok, lets go talk to my dad about it. Dont really care about - why, why now, prove it, what are you going to do with it, how much do you need, when do you need it?

Oh and you just happened to figure this out the same week we find the **** in the first place?

Oh, and by the way, how did you know we found it again, and why did you lie about it again?

Oh well, **** it, lets' play a joke on the corporate dork looking elf's dinner table instead.


Some legit criticisms in here, especially with the Mithril contrivance. Maybe they'll end up bringing it around somehow.

But the 300 trained, somewhat elite soldiers, is still a pretty significant number. I don't know what we're looking at population wise overall in this period, but the LOTR armies and population weren't that massive (tens of thousands not 100s of thousands), and I would expect both are smaller at this time, but I don't know.

A 300 man force behind a ruler who's supposed to rally many more behind him is workable.
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canadiaggie
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1:57p, 9/30/22
AG
I never got the feeling in Lord of the Rings that the military numbers were supposed to make any kind of real sense. It's not like Game of Thrones where GRRM got really specific about how many soldiers each kingdom could raise and how many each individual bannerman could raise etc.
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PatAg
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In reply to redline248 • 2:02p, 9/30/22
AG
redline248 said:
So 2 things into which I want to dig...

1. Adar somehow got out of the barn before the ash hit the town. Magic? Oh, and his gauntlet on the left hand always grabs my attention. Seems reminiscent of Sauron's gauntlets in LOTR.

2. He talked about turning on Sauron and killing him...and just prior we have Halbrand about to revenge kill him for whatever he did. Not that I think Halbrand is Sauron, but I thought I'd file that away.
Did I miss something? I just thought they showed Adar laying down to hear the water gush by.
I don't think the ash cloud is destroying the town
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redline248
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In reply to PatAg • 2:09p, 9/30/22
AG
PatAg said:
redline248 said:
So 2 things into which I want to dig...

1. Adar somehow got out of the barn before the ash hit the town. Magic? Oh, and his gauntlet on the left hand always grabs my attention. Seems reminiscent of Sauron's gauntlets in LOTR.

2. He talked about turning on Sauron and killing him...and just prior we have Halbrand about to revenge kill him for whatever he did. Not that I think Halbrand is Sauron, but I thought I'd file that away.
Did I miss something? I just thought they showed Adar laying down to hear the water gush by.
I don't think the ash cloud is destroying the town
It obviously won't destroy the town, b/c it washed right over Galadriel...but it showed him lying down, then when the smoke and stuff went through that building the floor was empty and he wasn't there
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PatAg
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In reply to redline248 • 2:27p, 9/30/22
AG
redline248 said:
PatAg said:
redline248 said:
So 2 things into which I want to dig...

1. Adar somehow got out of the barn before the ash hit the town. Magic? Oh, and his gauntlet on the left hand always grabs my attention. Seems reminiscent of Sauron's gauntlets in LOTR.

2. He talked about turning on Sauron and killing him...and just prior we have Halbrand about to revenge kill him for whatever he did. Not that I think Halbrand is Sauron, but I thought I'd file that away.
Did I miss something? I just thought they showed Adar laying down to hear the water gush by.
I don't think the ash cloud is destroying the town
It obviously won't destroy the town, b/c it washed right over Galadriel...but it showed him lying down, then when the smoke and stuff went through that building the floor was empty and he wasn't there
So he's part ninja
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Brian Earl Spilner
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2:51p, 9/30/22
AG
Now that's what I'm Tolkien about.

Awesome episode. Finally starting to feel like Lord of the Rings, and not just a series taking place in Middle Earth.

The shot of the cavalry riding in over the mountains was fantastic. If that doesn't get your blood pumping, this is not the show for you.

Got some big Rohan / Helm's Deep vibes for the first half of the episode.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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3:29p, 9/30/22
AG
Halbrand has gotta be the Witch King.
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PatAg
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3:43p, 9/30/22
AG
I'll always enjoy depictions of elves doing crazy stuff on horseback.
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OnlyForNow
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In reply to Brian Earl Spilner • 3:48p, 9/30/22
AG
Doesn't make much sense with his title being "witch king of angmar" as Angmar is between the Blue Mountains and Rivendell, far away from Mordor and the southlands.
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